BajaNomad

netting cabrilla in Loreto

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Don Alley - 5-6-2008 at 03:59 PM

It's the time of year when the cabrilla (leopard grouper) move in close to the island shores. Nets around most of the Loreto Marine Park islands are prohibited April through August. Yeah, right. This morning, Isla Carmen...









The whole cove was cut off, with the other end of the net anchored against the cliffs. They may have had a hooka diver on one of the other boats to herd all the fish into the net.





Last time out there, for the Governor's Cup Tourney on Saturday, we saw them set a net close in at Carmen, around Punta Lobos, in the afternoon. It's business as usual.

Netters

tehag - 5-6-2008 at 04:13 PM

Print the shot with the boat name readable on it and give it to the Guarda Parque. I don't know that boat, do you? Doņa Nicole?

Cypress - 5-6-2008 at 04:24 PM

Who would imagine.:lol:They also set the nets and run 'em using wet suits, snorkles, hookah rigs, and anything else available. :) Somebody will be wondering what happened to the grouper fishery.:(

Don Alley - 5-6-2008 at 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tehag
Print the shot with the boat name readable on it and give it to the Guarda Parque. I don't know that boat, do you? Doņa Nicole?


I don't know the boat, but I know the one I saw Saturday, but no pics. I sent pics to someone who will forward them to the park and we'll see what happens.


Oh, the boat I saw Saturday? They were loading up supplies at the ramp this afternoon. I believe they have a fish camp on the island.

[Edited on 5-6-2008 by Don Alley]

Sallysouth - 5-6-2008 at 05:56 PM

Geez I hate this.I posted some time ago about the same thing happening at Marquer Bay on Carmen.It was aweful to see what they were doing, pulling up Cabrilla and many other species, huge nets surrounding the bay from one point to the other.I know these guys need to make a living but during spawning season, not right!Those guys look very familiar, and the boat....::mad::mad::mad:

San Nicolas' at the end of March

vgabndo - 5-6-2008 at 10:12 PM

I didn't think that long lining was legal.

IMG_0781.JPG - 48kB

Mexpedition - 5-6-2008 at 10:30 PM

Makes me sick. Just like the tuna industry. And, being a West Coast sportsman, it reminds me of what has happened to the Salmon fish stock, and, the Steelhead. I still have memories of the Steehead runs on the Mad and Trinity Rivers. The question is, will the people who depend on fishing for a living unite with reasonable environmentalists to adopt a solution before the fisheries crash, as with the cod in New England? I try to be an optimist, but, I am usually dissapointed. (Please insert appropriate face here).

Capt. George - 5-7-2008 at 04:35 AM

Cod Fish have made a big comeback in New England. Finally some good science was used....not the typical enviro mumbo-jumbo..

Striped bass stocks back to astounding numbers..

Mexico protect their fishery, not in our lifetime brother!

Notice how they covered the name of the boat in fear of getting caught, wadda joke!!

Pescador - 5-7-2008 at 08:33 AM

Now they are surrounding whatever is up and feeding near the shore and then as soon as they circle the net, divers go over the side and they slowly move the net up and over the rocks so that nothing is missed. We are watching pangas so overloaded with cabrilla and yellowtail coming in to the fish sellers in Santa Rosalia, San Lucas Cove, and San Bruno. Since they closed down the east cape, they just seem to be moving farther north. I will watch to see if there is any response from the Park at all.

Don Alley - 5-7-2008 at 10:59 AM

Someone requested the exact location.

It was a small cove, called "Playa Blanca" by at least one local captain. It lies between Punta Tintorerra and Punta Lobos on the north end of Isla Carmen. It's a popular anchorage (a sailboat was anchored behind the nets). We've stopped there before; it's a good spot where Paula can snorkel and I can fish. It's been fair fishing in the past for small fish including roosters, green jacks, yellowtail snapper, sierra, barred pargo and of course leopard grouper.

Cypress - 5-7-2008 at 11:14 AM

My sympathy for the folks that fish the Sea of Cortez, both commercial and recreational.:( Maybe the pelagic species will be able to survive, but the local reef fish are in trouble.

Skipjack Joe - 5-7-2008 at 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George
Cod Fish have made a big comeback in New England. Finally some good science was used....not the typical enviro mumbo-jumbo..

Striped bass stocks back to astounding numbers..

Mexico protect their fishery, not in our lifetime brother!

Notice how they covered the name of the boat in fear of getting caught, wadda joke!!


Mexico will do something after their stocks drop to the level they fell in New England: total demise.

I knew the stripers had come back but it was really great to read this about the cod comeback. Maybe the grand banks will return to it's former glory.

Don't agree with your view about environmentalists, though. Fishermen and environmentalists should work side by side as they have a common goal. Most fishery biologists, the ones with the 'good science', are also environmentalists. I think it's the political leanings that keeps the two sides apart. Very narrowminded and self-destructive.

On the other hand a lot of our coastline is being closed off to fishing by environmentalists who claim that it's the only way to bring back the resources. :fire::fire::fire: That really bothers fishermen as the 'good science' shows it can be accomplised with sound fishery management practices.

And then there are the PETA people..... Last I heard, they now want to prohibit horseracing because of that racehorse that collapsed at the track a couple of days ago.

Roberto - 5-7-2008 at 07:51 PM

All that's missing are explosives. This makes me sick. But the reality was explained to me a long time ago by Lucy:

"They fish for beer". And now, "They fish for Meth". Folks, there IS NO planning for the future, virtually anywhere. THIS is the reality of the magnificent Sea of Cortez -- soon to be known as the Dead Sea. What will happen to those same fishermen at that point, God only knows, and I don't think even He will be able to help.

[Edited on 5-8-2008 by Roberto]

Pescador - 5-7-2008 at 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
All that's missing are explosives. This makes me sick. But the reality was explained to me a long time ago by Lucy:

"They fish for beer". And now, "They fish for Meth". Folks, there IS NO planning for the future, virtually anywhere. THIS is the reality of the magnificent Sea of Cortez -- soon to be known as the Dead Sea. What will happen to those same fishermen at that point, God only knows, and I don't think even He will be able to help.

[Edited on 5-8-2008 by Roberto]


I agree to a point, but I can also see the other side of the coin and these guys are doing what they know how to do and will not quit until forced to do so. Now we need to be a little realistic here. They are only able to do this during one short time of the year when the baitfish are literally driven close to shore and this usually occurs only in the spring. It has been going on for at least the last 15 years and they have not totally decimated the stocks yet. Even though the numbers are scary, it is still small potatoes compared to the large seine nets set out by trawlers. I watched these guys for the last month or so and many times they end up with one or two fish for the days work. I also have seen it when they needed extra pangas to haul in all the fish. They have brought so many in to the Santa Rosalia area that the price is almost half of what it was a little over a month ago. The numbers of netters however is increasing since things have shut down on the East Cape so that is having a big effect from Loreto to Santa Rosalia where there is no enforcement.
We could really mess with them by harrasing the feeding yellowtail before they can drop the nets but that scene could get a little ugly I suspect unless there were a lot of boats involved.

Roberto - 5-7-2008 at 08:27 PM

Sorry, it's not small potatoes.

The inshore grouper fishery is one of the most sensitive. This way of targeting it is just one of many. Constant gill-netting, trapping, etc., all target these species that are NOT pelagic. There are areas of the Cortez where they have been wiped out. It's only a matter of time.

Regarding the people who do this, there are two sides, one being the one you talked about (they do what they know), and there is the one where they take control of their own destiny and manage the resources they depend on. It sounds horrible, but often the barrier to get to the second is laziness, plain and simple, coupled with the desire to fulfill immediate needs (beer, meth). How many times have you seen local families go hungry while the subsistence fisherman is drinking beer with his friends using the money from the day's catch?

There are plenty of locals who understand this and advocate for change that will allow for regeneration of otherwise irreplaceable resources. It's also true that these folks are left with NO help from that same government that is willing to take those same resources for pennies on the dollar compared to what they will get on the global market.

All in all, it's a pretty dismal picture, and it's difficult to understand what the exit path is. For sure, however, the local folks CAN take control of their resources, and not only is it not happening, but they are often right there in the front lines of the war of destruction.

[Edited on 5-8-2008 by Roberto]

nets

tehag - 5-7-2008 at 08:43 PM

Sort of dropped a dime on the netters today and got this answer back:

YA TOME LOS DATOS, EL NOMBRE DE LA PANGA SE VE CLARO, TEN LA SEGURIDAD QUE VAMOS HACER TODO LO POSIBLE PARA QUE ESTOS NO HAGAN MAS DAŅO EN EL AREA NATURAL PROTEGIDA, PARQUE NACIONAL BAHIA DE LORETO.,

ATENTAMENTE.
LUIS MARTIN CASTRO ROMERO
INSPECTOR FEDERAL DE LA PROCURADURIA FEDERAL
DE PROTECCION AL AMBIENTE..(PROFEPA)

Good sentiments anyway, we shall see.

Capt. George - 5-8-2008 at 04:09 AM

Unless we, (no matter what you may think your status is), as "visitors", Ban Baja, nothing will be done to protect the fisheries.

Not go to Baja? Not likely, so we just have to suck it up.

The striped bass population came back so strong that we have a good commercial market....starts in July and over by Sept, tonnage filled that fast!

Good sound scientific data and management works...

Cypress - 5-8-2008 at 07:59 AM

Not go to Baja? At the rate things are going in the Sea of Cortez, the great fishing will, might already be, a thing of the past.:no: There are many other things that attract people to Baja, but the fishing was my #1 reason for spending time there.:) My total catch for 4 months wouldn't fill a 45 quart igloo cooler.:D Admittedly, it was during the winter and my fishing was restricted to within a couple miles of shore, but there were days that I didn't even get a bite.:no: I used both lures and bait.:) Have been fishing my entire life both commercial and recreational. On a scale of 1 to 10 the inshore fishing in Baja along the Sea of Cortez ranks about 2.:no:

Skipjack Joe - 5-8-2008 at 10:03 AM

Waiting for Skeet, at this point .....

Roberto - 5-8-2008 at 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Waiting for Skeet, at this point .....


You don't already know what he's going to say?

Capt. George - 5-8-2008 at 02:47 PM

over the last six years that I have spent in Baja (a majority portion of each year) I have personally seen the decline in the fisheries.

Declared World Biospheres are regularly gill netted...esteros aka fish nurseries regularly gill netted, by catch kill of immature fish staggering....cabrilla netted by the tens of thousands, everything kept, nothing returned...

A complete joke, but one that will be eventually paid for by hard working/hard fishing pangeros..."they can't see the Ocean for the Cabrilla". They will shed some hard tears as their ninos are forced to leave their beautiful and peaceful little Pueblos...a sad day coming.

Capt. George - 5-8-2008 at 02:48 PM

"cabrilla trapped by the tens of thousands, daily"....

Skipjack Joe - 5-8-2008 at 06:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Waiting for Skeet, at this point .....


You don't already know what he's going to say?


He's going to say we're just not skilled enough.

Roberto - 5-8-2008 at 06:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Waiting for Skeet, at this point .....


You don't already know what he's going to say?


He's going to say we're just not skilled enough.


Or we're not using the right panguero. Or we're too busy running around nekkid on motorcycles while smoking dope (with Nena). :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 5-9-2008 by Roberto]

Natalie Ann - 5-8-2008 at 06:58 PM

Roberto - So... you enjoyed our outing.:lol:

Nena

Roberto - 5-8-2008 at 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George
over the last six years that I have spent in Baja (a majority portion of each year) I have personally seen the decline in the fisheries.

Declared World Biospheres are regularly gill netted...esteros aka fish nurseries regularly gill netted, by catch kill of immature fish staggering....cabrilla netted by the tens of thousands, everything kept, nothing returned...

A complete joke, but one that will be eventually paid for by hard working/hard fishing pangeros..."they can't see the Ocean for the Cabrilla". They will shed some hard tears as their ninos are forced to leave their beautiful and peaceful little Pueblos...a sad day coming.


George, of course you're right, that's what will happen. One question -- won't this be a case of the victims being the cause of their own demise?

Roberto - 5-8-2008 at 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Natalie Ann
Roberto - So... you enjoyed our outing.:lol:

Nena


Immensely. :cool:

Capt. George - 5-9-2008 at 02:45 AM

Roberto, yes and no.

I was guilty of the same greed, maybe mine worse, it was not a matter of life and death for me, just a supplemental income to my FDNY salary. I would have casted at, and sold, the last striped bass on earth had not stringent regulations been put in place, AND ENFORCED. Hey, if I don't get that fish someone else will...The nature of the beast.

Until the Mexican Politicos stop getting paid and begin looking out for the future of it's people this mayhem will continue. I am not in favor of most Gov't regs. (in fact, I fought the U.S. Interior Dept for 15 years) but sometimes it simply becomes a necessary evil for the good of all.

As outsiders, we can only hope for a change.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-9-2008 at 11:21 AM

The Past 40 years I spent on the Sea of Cortez, The Longliners have been working, the Local Fisherman have been netting, The Shrimpers left Loreto, The Squid Fisherman pulled 4 o Tons a nite out in the Front of Loreto and other Places, However on my recent Trip I saw the Sea of Cortex as it was 30 years ago, Millions of Bait, Thousands of Yellowtail on top of the Water, Sharks Feeding, Dolphins Feeding Birds every where!!

Why??

I think that there is a Truck Load of BS being Spread around.. Put you Boots on George. this is Not
Cape Cod!!

Seems as if some of those Naysayers should go and take a Look.

Skeet/Loreto

Diver - 5-9-2008 at 11:27 AM

What ? Nothing about nekkid motorbikers ?!?! :lol:

Capt. George - 5-9-2008 at 11:46 AM

Skeet, can I borrow your boots?, they're much larger.

And you're right, it's not Cape Cod, it's much worse as far as the decimation of fish populations are going...

You're living in the past Skeet, good for you. Keep your dreams alive.

Skipjack Joe - 5-9-2008 at 01:07 PM

Sometimes the bajanomad forums remind me of a joke we used to tell in junior high. Perhaps you've heard it tambien.

It seems a new inmate arrives in jail one days and hears the following:

first inmate: 45!
remaining inmates: laughter

second inmate: 67!
remaining inmates: more laughter

third inmate: 109!
remaining inmates: everone is busting up with uncontrolable laughter

Finally the new inmate turns to his neighbor and asks him what the heck is going on. Well, he's told, they've all heard the jokes so many times that they've numbered them and no longer bother actually saying them. Gratefully, the new guy joins in.

78!
laughter

and then 45!
silence

Surprised, the new inmate again turns to his neighbor for an explanation. Oh, he's told, someone told 45 yesterday.

Are discussions becoming that predictable amongst ourselves also?

Cypress - 5-9-2008 at 01:32 PM

That old highway goes on forever and the party never ends. If you think you've heard all this BS before you're probably right.:D The northern Gulf of Mexico during the late 70's thru the 80's was gill-netted and overfished by both commercial and recreational fisherman. :no: The fish are returning now, but only after the gill-netting was limited/prohibited and recreational quotas were set as well as enforced.:yes:

Roberto - 5-9-2008 at 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Are discussions becoming that predictable amongst ourselves also?


Pretty much.

Capt. George - 5-9-2008 at 02:13 PM

who really gives a rats ass if they are?

Skeet/Loreto - 5-9-2008 at 05:41 PM

Answer one Question:

Why do I go onto the Sea of Cortez a Month ago and see the waters and Fish as they have been all the Years Past??????

The Fish are back in Wholesale Numbers and you Idots haven't the Brains or the Courage to go see for yourselves.

Children, wake up! Spend a few Bucks and go observe. Hire a Panga, go to Mulege then down to St. Tersa, Pulpito, Del Elfonso, but No, you wont do that you will depend on some Weak-Minded Berkerly Graduate to control your Minds. What a Shame!

My Kids and Grandkids will still be fishing the Great Sea Of Cortez while yours will be moaning and Groaning that there is No Fish in the Sea of Cortez.

Oh! You Poor Babies!

Skeet/Loreto

Roberto - 5-9-2008 at 06:07 PM

Ok, I'm going to try this one.

Skeet -- there are folks on here who actually LIVE in the area you are talking about, and they report a reality very different from yours. How do you explain that?

Diver - 5-9-2008 at 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Skeet -- there are folks on here who actually LIVE in the area you are talking about, and they report a reality very different from yours. How do you explain that?


He already has; they are children and Idiots !
So good to have someone like Skeet here to set us straight. :P

.

backninedan - 5-9-2008 at 06:37 PM

He can't. One or two days hot fishing and Skeet has wriitten and entire new history of the Sea of Cortez fishery.

I don't contend that fishing has gone to hell or anything like that, but Skeets sweeping statement that concludes fishing is as good as it ever was is foolish, and to call anybody that says otherwise a brainless coward?? How sad.

fishbuck - 5-9-2008 at 07:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Answer one Question:

Why do I go onto the Sea of Cortez a Month ago and see the waters and Fish as they have been all the Years Past??????

The Fish are back in Wholesale Numbers and you Idots haven't the Brains or the Courage to go see for yourselves.

Children, wake up! Spend a few Bucks and go observe. Hire a Panga, go to Mulege then down to St. Tersa, Pulpito, Del Elfonso, but No, you wont do that you will depend on some Weak-Minded Berkerly Graduate to control your Minds. What a Shame!

My Kids and Grandkids will still be fishing the Great Sea Of Cortez while yours will be moaning and Groaning that there is No Fish in the Sea of Cortez.

Oh! You Poor Babies!

Skeet/Loreto


That's right Skeets. Let em have it with both barrels

Don Alley - 5-9-2008 at 08:07 PM

1961

First thing I did upon arriving on my first trip to the Sea of Cortez was head for the water. There was a short concrete pier, and from it I could see fish! Many fish, many kinds of fish, and some really big ones, at least they seemed big to my 10 year old eyes.

Two Mexican men came down onto the pier. One unwound a long marlin leader, you know, the old wire leaders with a blue plastic covering we used to use for marlin. With a huge hook on the end. The other man unwrapped a fish over a foot long, and in answer to my English and gesture said "lisa." He cut the "lisa" in half, put half on the huge hook and the other man swung the bait out into the water. In less than a minute, he pulled in this big fish, bigger than any fish I had yet to catch. "Cabrilla," one of the men said. Then they left, their evening meal in hand.

Over the next week, we fished every day, alternating offshore for marlin and inshore for cabrilla, pargo and ladyfish. Those days we had no live bait or modern offshore lures; we fished dead flyingfish on outriggers for marlin and inshore trolled lures, mostly chrome Spoofers, a lure long out of production. The three of us each caught a striped marlin each offshore day, the smallest 165 lbs. Inshore, cabrilla, pargo. All consistent with the many stories and photographs my dad and his brother had collected over the years.

Seven years fishing Loreto and I have never, ever had a single day of fishing for cabrilla as good as any of those days fishing inshore, despite Rapalas, Yozuris and live bait tanks.

Those days have set my "baseline" for fishing in the SOC.

One of the biggest problems in arresting declines in fish populations is "shifting baselines." Despite a decline in gamefish populations, the newer generation of fishers (or observers) sees the new low population numbers as the norm. So, for example, I have seen new to Loreto anglers return from a day on a chartered panga describe the fishing as "great" because one of them caught a 25lb yellowtail. They are unaware that once they could each have expected to catch five of them, close to town. And if fishermen say the fishing is good, then management remains static.

It is also illogical and unscientific to describe a one or two day snapshot as the norm for the area, and, in the way Skeet puts it, surprisingly rude coming from a man I consider a gentleman.

There is a larger audience than just Baja Nomad regulars here. We are addressing real problems with the possibility of real change, and irresponsible babble does not help.

Finally, I have heard that the park was interested in the removal of the nets, and at least on Isla Carmen fish camp is gone. Possible progress.




Capt. George - 5-10-2008 at 05:06 AM

Sometimes reality is a hard thing to accept.

I too, occasionally live in the past, but have learned to accept the unpleasantries and reality of today.

Some people never will, God Bless Them All, says Tiny Tim.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2008 at 05:48 AM

Reality:

Yes, when I strap myself into my Airplane, I realize that I had better have a Co-Pilot- God.

When I love my Wife, I realize that Time is short, so try to make the Best of It.

When my Children dicuss our many great times on the Sea of Cortez, they know the
Truth.

The also know the False Prophets; Liberal Proffessors, Sierra Club, Al Gore, The Scramento Bee"s False Story about the Sea of Cortez, the many that lack Knowledge about the Sea who spread their False Stories all in a Hopes of bringing People to Their Cause such as the Rev. Wright, Howard Dean, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Russ Limbaugh and Others.

On May the 17th I will be 77 years old,knowing that i did not have to "Lie, Cheat not Steal, to have a good Life. as a Faithful Human Being, serving my Neighbors as Alderman, taking care of my small Rancho knowing that the Sea of Cortz will always be the best Place in the World forever.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Capt. George - 5-10-2008 at 06:02 AM

Happy Birthday

"lie, cheat nor steal" to have a good life?....I doubt there are any Nomads that have had to do any of those things to lead the lives they are now leading. You suprise me Skeet.

What does any of the above have to do with the simple fact of declining fish stocks? That is a reality of "today".

Russ - 5-10-2008 at 06:33 AM

I had to wait a day to respond to the Skeet Post:fire: I'm really shocked by his abrasive attitude. I'm very surprised by his findings. I hope his post was to get some kind of response from us and is enjoying this.
My first trip down the Baja was the summer of '68, I was 17. I have similar memories to those of Don Alleys'. After that I only played in the North until I returned to Baja Sur in '92 and saw a huge decline in the inshore fisheries. I move down here full time in '94 and have watched the inshore and off shore fisheries rapidly decline overall. The pongeros are mostly using nets now here. Where before they could make a living with their hand lines. My fish take is also way down per trip. I say "per trip" because in the last few years I'm on the water a lot less. However I do fish from the shore a lot and those numbers are down drastically!
I'd like to see some more responses from the avid fishermen that experience the good and bad days on a regular bases.

[Edited on 5-10-2008 by Russ]

vandenberg - 5-10-2008 at 08:03 AM

Skeet,

You are in dire need of a pulpit and join the " mumbo-Jumbo " circuit.:no::biggrin:

Skipjack Joe - 5-10-2008 at 10:08 AM

Ray Cannon writes of a time when, up to early 60's probably, when most pangueros rowed their pangas out to their favorite reefs and fished dropline. The vagabundos sailed from island to island. I am sure that the popularity and usage of the outboard motor, together with the big nets, made a huge contribution to the decline of the fish numbers.

Though I am convinced of the drop in the fish number (duh) I'd like to play the devil's advocate and relate an experience that made me think.

We were camping at Tripui and would regularly fish from the escondido pier in the evenings to pass the time away. Virtually nobody caught anything off that pier any more and it was a way to pass the evening hours enjoying the night sky and small talk. There was a school of sardinas beneath and I've always enjoyed diving in their midst (see Bondy's pictures for this amazing experience). So, Alex and I smorkeled and I tried to teach him to swim with fins. Eventually I started to explore and tried to swim to the bottom of the pilings. What I saw amazed me. Huge leopard grouper, I mean close to 10 lbs, were everywhere. I remember chasing several golden groupers to get a closer look. Sure they were attracted by the sardinas and probably aren't around very often. But nobody 15 feet over my head had an inkling of their presence and would never have guessed based upon fishing results.

So there you go, Skeet! You owe me one. I felt bad for dragging you into this 'hot topic'.

Capt. George - 5-10-2008 at 10:48 AM

I think the decline of fish is worldwide.

Just the huge increase in population has been enough to downsize the stocks. Couple with all the technological advances, fish don't stand much of a chance...

GPS/Color sounders/plotters...just for the average Joe, the electronics on draggers etc. is staggering...

On my little boat I can return to a spot in the middle of nowhere within a few feet..remember land ranges, compass/time course etc.??

some change

Cypress - 5-10-2008 at 12:50 PM

Capt. George is right! All the modern electronics enable fisherman to pin-point reefs, wrecks and anything else that fish will congregate around.:bounce: Regarding all of "what's his names" rants about how great the fishing is in Baja in the Sea of Cortes and the various left-wing groups, I'd join 'em in a minute as a dues-paying, card-carrying member if they could restore the fiheries to what they were 40 yrs. ago.:no:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2008 at 01:11 PM

If you will all go back to 1948 when the Shark Liver sales were Fantastic. All the small strips along the Sea were built for the Transport of the Livers to the States. Millions of shark were killed just for their Liver.

Yet there are still many Shark in the Sea!

On 1970 I caught 30 Lb Yellows from the Beach at San Nicholas, then the Netters came in and took out the Sierra by the Tons and the Yellows moved out to Deep Water.

Yet the yellows were around San Nicholas last month in the Thousands.

Prior to the Park around Loreto the Shrimp Boats were a Nightly Occurance. They were stopped several years back.

Yet there are Millions of Shrimp out in Loreto Bay. Just put over a Trap somenite about 700 Feet Down and see what you get.

during the Eighty's there would be 80 Pangas with Tourist Fisherman going for bait around Coronado Island and then to Yellows, everybody was catch fish>

Then During the Ninetys the Squid Fishermaon came for Three of those years and took out Millions of Giant Squid.

Yet the Squid are still there.

Yes there has been declines of a certain kind of Fish over the years but they always come back.

Might it not be that the Present Day Fisherman who depends on his Fancy Boat with all the Fancy Gadgets has not the Ability to turn aside from his Electronic Gear and learn the Habits and Locations and Times of the Fishing Habits.

I think so.
From all the False Statements being Spread on this Board, in the Media, the Books I was thinking "Could it Happen"? then on my recent fishing Trip I observed just the Opposite!
The Sharks , the Bait, The yellowtail, The Birds, The Barracuda, The Sardines, there in the Millons and People still Whining, Moaning that the Sea has no Fish.

Come on You socalled Fisherman, Go take a Look, Go beyond the Park Limit, go North or South, go out to Mercerious Reef{35 Miles on a 030 Degrees out of Loreto},,South of Catalana to Las Animas, North to Delefonso, Sta. Tersa, Pulpito.

Go and Fish, leave those Fancy Depthfinders behind and learn to use your Brains and Eyes.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Pescador - 5-10-2008 at 01:42 PM

Skeet is probably right that the liberal press has overplayed the harvest of fish issue which is more of a political issue than a carefully managed resource. When California had the stupidity to close off major areas of recreational fishing to restore broodstocks seemed more of a knee jerk reaction than sound fisheries management. But for anyone to think that the fish levels are the same as they were in the 70's and 80's only means that they are seeing what they want to see rather than actually seeing what is going on. I, too, am overwhelmed when I get into a large school of yellowtail and begin thinking that with the thousands of fish I am observing that there must be an unlimited supply of fish, but I am young enough to remember just how many schools of fish I would observe in a days time and it was literally too many to count. Now Cabrilla are a whole different animal and it takes a long time for these fish to grow and populate. We have a man who winters at San Lucas Cove who is a bit of an expert of catching inshore Cabrilla and this year was the worst he has ever recorded. With that being experienced, I know that the fish stocks are only a small percentage of what they were even as recently as 10 years ago both for yellowtail and cabrilla but I readily admit that there are a lot of fish swimming around in the sea and since I am out there almost every day, I do see a lot of fish, so no it is not decimated and no one is implying that but the populations are way down.
Now the squid issue is interesting and experts think that since we have killed off a signifcant portion of the predators like yellowtail and sharks, that the squid are going through a population explosion. That seems to fit with my experiences and observations and we see lessening of the baitstock populations which the squid can clean out in very short order.
Finally, we see a real comback of certain species in the east cape area even though the fishing pressure is higher than it has ever been before because they have taken a no tolerance position in regards to nets. It is virtually impossible to decimate a population of fish with rod and reel or handline due to the fact that out of 100 fish only 4 or 5 are usually willing to eat or feed at any given time but with effecient netting I have observed whole schools of fish wrapped up and killed in short order.
Now with all this said, we have a major problem because Mexico has chosen to not do anything about this issue. Even the National Park has been very lax in enforcing netting laws and a couple of years back they told the people who were raising hell about that issue to back off and let them run the park. Where I live in the Santa Rosalia area, there is absolutely zero enforcement and I suspect things are getting worse since we are getting netters from as far away as La Paz.
So, yes there are still a lot of fish in the sea, but make no mistake that they are not at the same level as they were even 5 years ago.

Cypress - 5-10-2008 at 02:22 PM

When Pescador speaks about fishing in the Sea of Cortez, HEAR HIM! He lives there:bounce:

Santiago - 5-10-2008 at 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
1961

First thing I did upon arriving on my first trip to the Sea of Cortez was head for the water. There was a short concrete pier, and from it I could see fish! Many fish, many kinds of fish, and some really big ones, at least they seemed big to my 10 year old eyes.

Two Mexican men came down onto the pier. One unwound a long marlin leader, you know, the old wire leaders with a blue plastic covering we used to use for marlin. With a huge hook on the end. The other man unwrapped a fish over a foot long, and in answer to my English and gesture said "lisa." He cut the "lisa" in half, put half on the huge hook and the other man swung the bait out into the water. In less than a minute, he pulled in this big fish, bigger than any fish I had yet to catch. "Cabrilla," one of the men said. Then they left, their evening meal in hand.

Over the next week, we fished every day, alternating offshore for marlin and inshore for cabrilla, pargo and ladyfish. Those days we had no live bait or modern offshore lures; we fished dead flyingfish on outriggers for marlin and inshore trolled lures, mostly chrome Spoofers, a lure long out of production. The three of us each caught a striped marlin each offshore day, the smallest 165 lbs. Inshore, cabrilla, pargo. All consistent with the many stories and photographs my dad and his brother had collected over the years.

Seven years fishing Loreto and I have never, ever had a single day of fishing for cabrilla as good as any of those days fishing inshore, despite Rapalas, Yozuris and live bait tanks.

Those days have set my "baseline" for fishing in the SOC.

One of the biggest problems in arresting declines in fish populations is "shifting baselines." Despite a decline in gamefish populations, the newer generation of fishers (or observers) sees the new low population numbers as the norm. So, for example, I have seen new to Loreto anglers return from a day on a chartered panga describe the fishing as "great" because one of them caught a 25lb yellowtail. They are unaware that once they could each have expected to catch five of them, close to town. And if fishermen say the fishing is good, then management remains static.

It is also illogical and unscientific to describe a one or two day snapshot as the norm for the area, and, in the way Skeet puts it, surprisingly rude coming from a man I consider a gentleman.

There is a larger audience than just Baja Nomad regulars here. We are addressing real problems with the possibility of real change, and irresponsible babble does not help.

Finally, I have heard that the park was interested in the removal of the nets, and at least on Isla Carmen fish camp is gone. Possible progress.


This is one of the most reasoned, well written posts I have read in a long, long time. Recently I moved Mr Alley up to #4 on my personal list of all-time great posts on the strength of a similar, well reasoned and written post but now I'm in a huge quandry: the top three positions are currently held by those who are no longer with us and I'm loath to demote one out of simple respect. I'm wondering, Mr Alley, how you're feeling these days.....

edit for spelling

[Edited on 5-11-2008 by Santiago]

Skeet/Loreto - 5-10-2008 at 04:02 PM

Very Well said and Truthfull Pescador.

From all of my time on the Sea I have observed the decline and then the comeback of many Fish.
I am limited to the Areas from Los Dolores on the South to Chivato on the North.
I think maybe the Golden Cabrilla have taken their Herds away from the San Carlos Area, maybe they finally figured it out.

While on the Trip to Mulege there were many boils of Amberjack of a Good Size. That I had never seen previously.

Talking to my Mexicano Fisherman they told of the masses of Yellow tail coming in at first light for the Masses of Bait, In the past 8 years I have never seen it as it was last Month. It was very much as it was 20 and 30 years ago..

I can remember the Japanese Boat that was sucking up the Fiosh in a 5 Ft. Diameter Tube, the longlingers, the locals with nets, the Handliners, the Sports Fishers but with my own eeyes and heart know that there are large amounts of Fish , right now in the Sea of Cortez.

Just think about all of the words of those who watched the Longliners across the bottom of the Sea who Proclaimed that it would ruin the Sea of Cortez.. It has Not done that!!

Might it be that Baja Sur is facing another "7 year Drought?
Might it be that the masses of Fish now will stay for a couple of years then retreat to places Unknown to us.??

In 1970 coming across the Ferry I saw a Mile of Yellowtail on top of the Water, last Month off of Teresa I saw 3/4 Mile of seperate schools of Yellowtail Feeding.

The Sea of Cortez shall Survive !

Skeet/Of the Sea

Don Alley - 5-10-2008 at 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto


Come on You socalled Fisherman, Go take a Look, Go beyond the Park Limit, go North or South, go out to Mercerious Reef{35 Miles on a 030 Degrees out of Loreto},,South of Catalana to Las Animas, North to Delefonso, Sta. Tersa, Pulpito.

Skeet/Of the Sea



:lol::lol::lol::

I just got back. Went to Almejas, Pulpito, Isla Ildefonso, San Bruno Reef... with Capitan Rigo Davis, and my neighbor Jose Luis, who is a nephew of your friend Alvaro Murillo. One yellowtail hooked and lost between the three of us, but three cabrilla and one huachinango. Whoopee, it's the good old days!:biggrin:

nets etc

tehag - 5-10-2008 at 05:39 PM

I'd like to hear more about the 5' Japanese tubes and 700 foot deep shrimp traps.

Capt. George - 5-11-2008 at 04:03 AM

Don, you were obviously in the wrong place with the wrong people. I think if you take all your fancy electronics, blindfold yourself, use only handlines, your catch ratio will increase tremendously..:rolleyes:

100 miles round trip, 1 jurel (almost) 3 cabrilla and 1 hoochy-coochy. There are so many fish still in the Sea you could walk on them...You just need to go further, there out there, WAY OUT THERE!!:light:

Even in Abreojos, the pangueros, when I first got there, went out no further then ten miles, their now going thirty for less fish:?:....But even they have those Fancy Dan Fishfinders and GPS.....if they would just go back to using their noses and sniff the fish out:lol:, all would be peaches and cream again.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-11-2008 at 06:57 AM

Tehag:

Several years back the Japanese were given Permits to Fish the Cortez. The ships were using 5 Ft. Dia. Tubes to suck up the Fish. They were to take only Bottom type Fish.

With their Holds Full they started to Leave and were Stopped and all of the Catch was taken and sent to Mexico City. It contained a large amount of Dorado, Yellowtail, Marlin, Saifish, Cabrilla.
They have never been Back.

Shrimpers drug the Bay of Loreto for many years, at times we would stop by them and buy a Large Bag of Shrimp for $2.00, Then the Park came and the Shrimpers left.
There are many spots in the Bay where with a little effort you can find "Goobs' of Shrimp. Don't get Caught.or they will take your Boat.

Don Alley: Did you fish Pt. Lobos at "First Light" ??? If you did not the Yellows had already filled up and gone back out to deep Water.
Go see Alex up in Mulege, or get in Touch with Alvaro Murillo, have him take you to Delefonso Island, spend the Nite and start fishing at First Lite, then come back and give a Report. If you are leaving the Marina at 6 or 6:30 you are already to Late!!

Skeet/ of the Sea

backninedan - 5-11-2008 at 09:07 AM

Yah Don, whats wrong with you?? Sleeping in til 5 AM? Get a guide, leave at noon, spend a day or two. Your fish count will be up to two maybe three jurel!!!!

Don Alley - 5-11-2008 at 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by backninedan
Yah Don, whats wrong with you?? Sleeping in til 5 AM? Get a guide, leave at noon, spend a day or two. Your fish count will be up to two maybe three jurel!!!!


I'm selling my center console. The day of the center console in Baja is done. I need something with a cabin, galley and home theater for those three day trips to the places in the SOC where there are no fishermen and/or fish camps.

Why hire a guide when I can have a live aboard captain?

Fishing is great, you just have to be more flexible. I hear there's a great bite for dogtooth tuna near Guam; I'll post a report when I get back.


:biggrin:


Play the Game

[Edited on 5-11-2008 by Don Alley]

Cypress - 5-11-2008 at 10:30 AM

Don Alley, Thanks for stating the facts. You're just being honest. I expect you and Pescador spend more time fishing the Sea of Cortez than most of us. With your experience, topnotch, gear, electronics, etc. all combined and you have a hard time catching fish, there's defintely something haywire.:O

LancairDriver - 5-11-2008 at 11:01 AM

Does Skeet know something the rest of us don't? Pilots taking off the wrong way from the Serenidad, Tons of fish but the fishermen don't know where to go to find them, or are too lazy to get up early enough to hit the bite. Last time I checked, Alex wasn't doing so hot either. Better adjust your thinking.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-11-2008 at 07:31 PM

Lancair:

Taking off into a Hill across a River can get very dicey if you have a loss of Power on Take-Off[Most small Aircraft Accidents occurr on take Off.
Any DUMMY can get that information by visiting the NTSB website and click on Accidents. Or go to work as an Accident Investigator.

Well, you socalled Fancy Boat Fish Hunters, go on your unenlighted way and keep coming back with few Fish. You will never learn to "Look at the Water"" instead of "Looking at your DepthFinder".

If you can't find the Fish at the places I have mentioned then You are as Blind as a Hundred year old Elephant.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Don Alley - 5-11-2008 at 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Don Alley, Thanks for stating the facts. You're just being honest. I expect you and Pescador spend more time fishing the Sea of Cortez than most of us. With your experience, topnotch, gear, electronics, etc. all combined and you have a hard time catching fish, there's defintely something haywire.:O


Well, my gear is pretty good; I make most of my own rods, and I can admire my gear as my friends are busy catching fish on their Penn Senators.:lol: (Note to self: Email Avet for instructions on return and repair of expensive pink two-speed LX 6/3 reel).:lol:

As for my electronics, I have a depth finder that can find the bottom if it's not too far away and my panga's not going too fast. And I have a GPS! Cost $99.95.:lol:

Experience? Cutthroat trout!:lol:

Looks like red skies in the morning on this one...

Pompano - 5-11-2008 at 09:18 PM

Hola, fellow fishermen. I came in here to check the cabrilla netting, but I see the water is way too choppy for me. ;) Will check the moon & stars forecast tonight....toasting for calm weather on the horizon. Tight lines, all.

Capt. George - 5-12-2008 at 04:04 AM

Pompano

come on back, but where your waders, the poop is getting really deep!

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2008 at 05:30 AM

Pomp: Good to hear from you> Have you seen any of those Thousands of Fish I saw on top of the Water off of Teresa??
Guess I was dreaming when I caught all those Slimy Barracuda, the Yellowtail , The Cabrilla, Bait.
Must have been dreaming at all the Amberjack, Dolphins, Sharks, and Whales.
Oh Well, some Fisherman have it,some Don"t.
Pomp: Are there any Clams in Conception? At Kilometer 78 ?

Skeet/Of the Sea

Pompano - 5-12-2008 at 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pomp: Good to hear from you> Have you seen any of those Thousands of Fish I saw on top of the Water off of Teresa??
Guess I was dreaming when I caught all those Slimy Barracuda, the Yellowtail , The Cabrilla, Bait.
Must have been dreaming at all the Amberjack, Dolphins, Sharks, and Whales.
Oh Well, some Fisherman have it,some Don"t.
Pomp: Are there any Clams in Conception? At Kilometer 78 ?

Skeet/Of the Sea


Hola Skeet,

Are you taking good care of Texas? Let's hope my pilot amigo, Dusty, doesn't have to waterbomb any more brush fires out your way this year. You got a little scorched last time.

I've been way out west on the big pond for a few weeks, so don't have any personal reports on our Cortez fishing just yet, but will very soon. I will post a fishing report here as it happens. I hear from some amigos that the roosterfishing is great and dorado are expected to arrive pretty quick.

The old haunts for finding the fish are still the best, of course. That knowledge never changes, thank Neptune. Currents and structure rule the day, but however you find them, it's all good.

The day is a banquet if you make it out on the water..the rest is dessert.

Clamming? Funny you should ask....I was driving down that way a couple months ago and took this photo of some suspicious characters on a known clam beach. I stopped and questioned them about digging clams. Nervously, they muttered they were clam Planters from Oregon and were reseeding the entire peninsula with gaper, butter, c-ckle, littleneck, and razor clams.

Sure...Now all we need are some Washington or Alaskan gooey-ducks.





[Edited on 5-12-2008 by Pompano]

- 0 0 1aclamming day (Small).jpg - 46kB

Troubling evaluation

Sharksbaja - 5-12-2008 at 09:53 AM

I've read this post a few times now. I just don't get your logic Skeet. Many people have been witness over many years and their evaluation or rather, assessment contradicts your notions.

The science and facts known about the various life cycled and man's interaction can be very inexact or very productive as in a few instances. I hope you do more research than just a couple trips. Also listen to others and believe what they say about what they see.

A good read for you would be:
Cod: A Biography of the Fish That Changed the World


I'd like to readdress that inshore netting is very destructive to local and native fish populations. Add to that that the cabrilla sp. are very slow to grow , mature and have off-spring. Much like that of many sharks.
Localized nearshore schools of fish once removed are not replaced easily. Furthermore, the new herding methods being used in conjunction with hookah divers is really the bottom line. It's possible to extract ALL the fish in the area.
The pelagic species certainly do have a better chance and think of the salmon problem we are facing now in PNW. That is another story and it underlines our good intent but highlights our tremendous failure.

It's a big job for sure. Regulating fisheries is necessary even though it can be a disaster sometimes. The shame lies on those that abuse the gift of the sea. Natural resources are finite and it's not our given right to overtake or abuse it.
It's our duty as intelligent humans to make changes or adjust our mindset. The world is in hi gear and we have to do prudent things now. The people of Mexico must wise up and force the govt to mandate fishery enforcement and educate the citizens about their important resource.

Paladin - 5-12-2008 at 10:29 AM

Skeet

How come the only smart people are Fresno State grads???

FSU 1974

Pescador - 5-12-2008 at 12:55 PM

Sharks may be right that inshore netting is a totally destructive process and with the added hookah diving, they may be able to kill off an otherwise productive area. I personally know the area that is north of Santa Rosalia which was, in the old days, highly populated by both cabrilla and yellowtail. The divers and the netters came in and completely cleaned out the area almost all the way to Punta Prieta. Now the only thing except for a very occassional yellow or cabrilla are dorado during the summer.
On the other hand at San Marcos Island and Tortuga Island, the fish seemed to have adapted to the pressure and have moved into deeper water. I am now catching cabrilla in much deeper water than ever before and they seemed to have adapted to that area well. They are fat and well fed, so perhaps they are adjusting to changes in their environment.
The problem with this approach is the lack of any accurate information. No one has done any kind of census about available fish per square mile or anything that gives any kind of empirical evidence, and quite frankly, it would not really make any difference since we can moan and groan all we want and in the end there will probably be little if anything done. It becomes even more confusing when someone sees a big school of active fish and assumes that things are back to "normal".
The most promising sign on the horizon is how they manage the fisheries through the co-ops in Asuncion, Tortuga, La Bocana, and Abreojos. Because things are controlled there we see a real resurgence of lobster,
abalone, and fish stocks. Perhaps when things get really bad on our side of the peninsula, they will be able to look to those areas for a clear idea of how to sucessfully manage the resources.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2008 at 04:45 PM

Sharks:
As you may know I spent nearly 40 years fishing the Sea of Cortez. I owned a Panga for 27 years, I was taught fishing by the Murillo Family of San Nicholas. Papa Murillo taught me to catch Pargatio on a handline from 300 Ft. about two miles from the Island.
I have caught Hundreds of Lbs of Yellowtail, yellowFin, Cabrillo, Trigger fish etc always learning and using the Mehods taught to me by the Murillos.

I have dove and snorkeled and watch the movements of the Golden Cabrilla herding their Brthern to the Bait.
Starting in1967 I have seen a Mile of Yellotail on top of the Water, I watched as the Fertlizer Boats netted all of the Sierra from in close, driving the Yellowtail out to the deep water.
I have watched numerous Boils of all types of fish{the latest that of Amberjack, my First sighting a month ago}.

I have seen the change of fishing the decline of the Costal Cabrilla{yet last month I and others caught some nice Size Cabrilla}

There are not a 10th of the Commercial Boats that once fished the Sea as there is at this moment.

There is probably about 25 % of the Sport Fisherman out of Loreto at this moment compared to the Eightys.

The Locals have been netting and using Spearguns for many years-

I beleive that some of the decline around the Park is due to the Stoppage of the Shrimpers, the Catch Limit and that many of todays Fisherman use Electronic gear instead of their Brains and Eyes.
How many of the Fisherman do you know that would go out and spend the nite to catch Yellowtail at first light as they start to Feed-I wager not Many!
How many go beyond Catalana for the best Yellowfin Fishing. North to the Reef

Most of your so-called Experts on the "Ruining of the Sea of Cortez" are Book learners with no Experience. Go to Mulege contact Alex and ask him how many fish and Bait he saw when he took "Mosco from Loreto "Fishing last month.

The Babble you read from the so-called experts is False , so what do you base your words on???

I base mine on Experience.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Roberto - 5-12-2008 at 09:07 PM

So, Igor, is this predictable enough for you?

Skeet/Loreto - 5-13-2008 at 06:11 AM

Pompano: years back in the early 70"s you could get a Bucket full of Clams at the bottom of Conception, then about 300 Clammers showed up and took aout the Clams by the Millions, now I hear that there are many Clams back in that area.

Can you comfirm that Clams are back in Conception?? If so just wonder why they came back?? Could be like the Yellows and others, they decline in certain Areas then come back.

Nature is a very strange thing. I have wondered even about the Marlin Fishing off of Cabo. All those Marlin being taken, yet they are still there.

The Millons of Fish taken out of the Sea and yet I go fishing an see Millons of Fish off of Pt. San Teresa along with Bait and Birds that I haven"t seen in several years.

Also interesting to see the Large Amount of Birds, especially the Pelicans.

If there is no Fish then How come so many Pelicans, Fat and Sassy??

I am beginning to think that some of the Naysayers are just Talkers and have never Experienced the Sea of Cortez.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Santiago - 5-13-2008 at 06:51 AM

This started out as an informative and lively thread; turned a bit comical and now has slid into sadness. We're either getting our chain royally yanked or witnessing the onset of dementia. I hope for the former.:(

backninedan - 5-13-2008 at 08:06 AM

I cast a vote for the latter.

vandenberg - 5-13-2008 at 08:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by backninedan
I cast a vote for the latter.

Disagree Dan.
Old Skeet is too clever and I believe he's yanking your chain.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-13-2008 at 10:12 AM

Santigo:
Are you Afraid of us Ole Folks who have lived our Dream??

Are you afraid that your Weak Minded un experienced mind and Body will not be able to Survive? Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves.

Are you Afarid Ole Al Gore may be Wrong, that what we see of the Sea and land is just another Stage in the ever changing way of Nature.

Are you afraid that the Sierra Club will become no more as their Donors kids grow up to understand their False Words?

Oh! you helpless Babies! Striving for the Future only by attempting to Tear Down that has gone before You. Failing to put effort into the Positive.Only thinking of your Lonely Self ,Bitter to the End, as you'Watch the Nekid Lady riding a Motorcycle in the Streets of San Francisco.

Skeet/Of the Sea

Capt. George - 5-13-2008 at 10:29 AM

Pescador

fish stocks in Abreojos? ...the lobster and abalone are watched carefully and continue to offer hope to the towns.

finfish? gillnetting the esteros (world wide biospheres) is obviously not helping to repopulate any species. Seen one gill net haul in Coyote, the bycatch kill was nothing less then staggering. Went out a few times with the fish trap boys, "nothing" goes back.

I've only been fishing Ojos the last five years and the fishing opportunities have certainly diminished with "local fish". The pelagic species are there for the catching.

But maybe it's just me, an "inexperienced" fisherman.

Not enough thought given to the future generations of Mexicans.

flyfishinPam - 5-13-2008 at 11:29 AM

with all the arguments for and against the decline or percieved decline fo the fishery there is one fact:

the activity photographed in don alley's images is blatantly illegal and clearly against the regulations of the marine park. these guys aren't supposed to be netting wthin 300 meters of the shoreline off Isla Carmen from April 1 through August 30.

it took two days to recieve a response from the marine park to my complaint with these images. they said they would check it out and want to surprize the persons performing the illegal activity. to my question of "what do we buy these marine park tickets for" which was asked within my complaint, their response was basically "because you have to". i'm not gonna hold my breath for them to do the right thing but we shoulc also bring these complaints to GEA and Eco Alianza Loreto because these two organizations FUND the park through tens of thousands of dollars of private funding. Its time to notify those who make those donations as to how their money us being used.

Santiago - 5-13-2008 at 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Santigo:
Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves.

Watch the Nekid Lady riding a Motorcycle in the Streets of San Francisco.

Skeet/Of the Sea


:?::?::?:

Cypress - 5-13-2008 at 11:43 AM

Wish all of you that fish the Sea of Cortez luck.:bounce:

Pompano - 5-13-2008 at 12:01 PM

A lot of us in the Mulege community have been involved in donating money and efforts to stop or at least curtail illegal shrimping, trawlers gillnetting all species (including cabrilla), overharvesting shellfish, etc in Conception Bay since 1973. We have seen some small battles won, but the war so far is a little one-sided. We remain optimistic, however.

Skipjack Joe - 5-13-2008 at 12:03 PM

Microsoft unveiled today the "Worldwide Telescope". Everyone on our planet can now watch Jupiter in real time. How is it that we can accomplish these technological feats and not be able to manage baja's fisheries? It's not that complicated.

And then I remember. That's exactly why I go to baja. To get away from our modern world. To live a simple existence where the choices are few and therefore more meaningful.

So that's another point of view on the matter. That is, the fishery problems are indirectly related to what we sought to begin with.

"You pays your money, you takes your choice"

[Edited on 5-13-2008 by Skipjack Joe]

Capt. George - 5-13-2008 at 12:30 PM

ya gotta lots guts Pam! good for you............cap'n g

Cypress - 5-13-2008 at 01:47 PM

In my humble opinion, based on experience, the local reef fishery in the Sea of Cortez is done, it's over. Toasted! The pelagics will come and go, fewer each year. I'm very thankfull that in the northern Gulf of Mexico all of the destructive methods common in Baja have been outlawed.:)

Skipjack Joe - 5-13-2008 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
In my humble opinion, based on experience, the local reef fishery in the Sea of Cortez is done, it's over. Toasted!


How can you say that, Cypress? Fish are a renewable resource.

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2008 at 03:16 PM

Good one Skip! Too ironic to laugh however. I've never made the connection between naked ladies and fishing like some can. Naked "Lady Luck"? No such luck, those mermaids are a real b-tch to land. Plus I keep forgetting to stock my tackle box with jewelry.

Ok, put rediculous aside. The nearshore pressure will yield fewer and fewer fish. The whole niche will be compromised and that includes many different animals including mammals and birds.

We should all applaud Pam. Regardless of the hoops and runaround she gets she continues to fight for ocean protection. Kudos and the best of luck to her. I suggest anyone else whohas damning photos or current info to submit it to her so she can persue her honourable intentions.

As far a Skeet goes, it's hard to take a person seriously who can't deseminate Berkley from Baja. So to me he's just a silly old man. Take it all with a grain of sea-sal.

Cypress - 5-13-2008 at 03:25 PM

Skipjack Joe, Yea, buffalo where renewable also. When's the last time you saw a passenger pigeon?:o

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2008 at 03:29 PM

Cypress, methinks he was joking. I sure hope he was!:wow:

Cypress - 5-13-2008 at 03:36 PM

Sharksbaja, Me too.:O Sorry, I fail to see anything funny about the destruction of an entire ecosystem.:O

Skipjack Joe - 5-13-2008 at 05:19 PM

I wasn't joking. Although, the point about extinction was not considered.

Fish populations can rise and fall with changing conditions. I just feel that to say that you can kiss baja off forever because the fishery is being hammered is a mistake. I don't think I'm saying anything you guys don't already know. Look at the striped bass on the east coast. The white seabass in socal. The Great Lakes were considered almost dead at one time. The brown pelicans came back. We've got a moratorium on king salmon here cause the spawning fish are down. I mean the list is endless.

Non renewable resource are fossil fuels like gas and oil. But fisheries - they come back if treated right.

Remember the sardine fishery in Monterey? Well, I don't remember it, I was born in 47. Where's cannery row? Gone. Just a pier with shops and an organ grinder. The sardines are back though.

Could be similar in the cortez. The website captn george referred to is suggesting it's already going on. The life of the commercial panguero is declining. He will soon look for other ways to make a living. Perhaps Pam is right, fishing tourism may be the future - make better money and there is a tomorrow.

Sharks, I'm sure with your background you're familiar with optimal sustainable yield. That's only possible with a renewable resource. So why the surprise? Does anyone know the optimal sustainable yield for cabrilla, for snapper, for a single species in baja? Do the regulations take it into consideration? Obviously not.

Osprey - 5-13-2008 at 06:11 PM

Happens to me all the time. I start typing and somewhere along the line I lose the point.

I just start over, try to remember to enlighten instead of just repeating what others have said in the current or related threads.

Cmon Skipjack, give us your thoughts about the fishery. Something new.

Santiago - 5-13-2008 at 06:17 PM

A number of East Cape posters have said that gill netting is not allowed and its ban is enforced. When did this happen? More importantly , how did it happen and why doesn't this movement grow to other places in the SOC? Who is enforcing it - the people or the government? How is it enforced - patrols, word of mouth?? Have the hotels got enough power to do this and that is what is missing further north?
If the ban is being enforced, then when can't this happen in Loreto? Please - no "Because it's Mexico" answers. This kind of answer only covers up our ignorance. There is a reason - I just don't know what it is.
Don and Pam are on the front line of something here and it behooves all of us to think about this issue and support their efforts.

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2008 at 06:22 PM

Well the surprise is that you only see a few successful recoveries but in the grand scale of things man has successfully wiped out myriad species.
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and theory.

It's already been proven wih the salmon that while we thought 10 years ago our stocks were in good shape headed for full recovery, it was on the brink of collapse. I can't think of a more remarkable scenario where the science was all wrong.

You can't really count hatchery fish as part of a native stock. Those fish do not usually have the true wild lineage.

One can argue about the various sport fish and mammals that have been saved through mans' intervention with man , but there are many other species that will befall because of mans' heavy impact.

That statement addresses more than just the seas though the ocean can and is a barometer of our influence. We do boast of our acts that perhaps saved the sea bass, whales and turtles but the bad news is that we may pat ourselves on the back too soon.

I commented about the rockfish and how they are slow to mature and reproduce. These are just simple facts that we know and understand. The biggest hurtle is to know their complete lifecycle and how to adjust our exploits.

To me 20-30 years may be too soon to declare a victory. For instance; the continental shelf in cold waters that gets dragged for bottom fish, shrimp etc. can take up to 100 years to fully recover.

A good example of our lack of understanding can be found in Skeets' post where he and otehrs claim the fish got wise and moved on to safer grounds. This may be hogwash or not. Can we say for sure that those fish possess logic?

Anyway Skip I do understand the point you make but I have trouble with the whole sustainable thingy. From the standpoint of pelagics recovering due to an increase in available anchovies and sardines I'll have to submit that yes, the move to limit harvest worked. Remember though, it starts with the wee little things and moves right up to the apex animals. Some arejust very much more at risk by our hand.

Of note is that most of the important resources that are in danger are at the hand of the Japanese fleets and markets and it's not limited to seafood.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Rate-of-Extinction-3-Spec...

Skipjack Joe - 5-13-2008 at 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Happens to me all the time. I start typing and somewhere along the line I lose the point.


A bit more distance from the bottle might help.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-13-2008 at 07:43 PM

The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.


Skeet/Loreto

Skipjack Joe - 5-13-2008 at 08:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and theory.


As I recall the yields are calculated annually by sampling the population to determine it's size and relative age classes. Knowing the reproductive capacity of each class allows them to plot an S curve from which they determine the number of individuals that can be harvested to keep the stocks growing at their maximums. I thought they adjusted the allowable catch each year based upon the collected samples of that year. But you're right, fishing regulations had been set for years in my state. However, now we are seeing new numbers each year.

Anyway, we, in alta california, haven't really done a very good job. Even with the proximity of some of the best universities in the world. So what can we expect from the natives of baja. Personally, I think this infusion of gringo anglers is overall good for baja.

Don Alley - 5-13-2008 at 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
A number of East Cape posters have said that gill netting is not allowed and its ban is enforced. When did this happen? More importantly , how did it happen and why doesn't this movement grow to other places in the SOC? Who is enforcing it - the people or the government? How is it enforced - patrols, word of mouth?? Have the hotels got enough power to do this and that is what is missing further north?
If the ban is being enforced, then when can't this happen in Loreto? Please - no "Because it's Mexico" answers. This kind of answer only covers up our ignorance. There is a reason - I just don't know what it is.
Don and Pam are on the front line of something here and it behooves all of us to think about this issue and support their efforts.


The short answer to your question is Van Wormer.

The Van Wormer family owns and operates three fishing orientated resorts. They are also the "Van" in Van Diaz boats built in Los Barriles. And one, I believe Roberto Van Wormer, is or was a deputy in the legislature. Also, the East Cape does not have a population center as large as Loreto, and is much more directly dependent on sport-fishery based tourism. Loreto has long standing family groups with interests in commercial fishing.

Enforcement is a problem on the East Cape. To enforce the gill net ban they not only rely on reports from fishermen and the hotel operators, but I have heard of accounts where people volunteer money for gas, or even the use of their boats, to take enforcement people out.

Loreto has an advantage in enforcement. They have boats and two nice late model trucks to launch them. For a while, they even had a radar equipped panga. They are patrolling frequently. Today they launched after 2pm, six guys including the Profepa officer aboard; that's too late to check many fishermen or tourists for licenses or wristbands. Perhaps they are checking the commercial guys, who may be more likely to set nets later in the day after the sporties have gone in? I hope so.

Inside the Loreto Marine Park, they need to do two things. One, rewrite the management plan to more realistically manage for sustainable fisheries. Second, decide that using their considerable enforcement potential to protect park resources is a higher priority than to enforce the collection of revenues.

But until they get serious about protecting park resources, instead of just re-allocating fish from large outside commercial operators to small local operators, using the park mainly to collect fees from tourists is nothing but a rip off.

It's frustrating, but while there are Mexicans whose interests seem to be the liquidation of fishery stocks with no concern for the future, there are also Mexicans who are in favor of more progressive management strategies. Once that happens, the fisheries will respond in time and can improve substantially. In the long run I am an optimist...but I'm not going to hold my breath. And I can/will be no more than a minor bit player in any case.

Roberto - 5-13-2008 at 09:28 PM

Yes, Bobby Van Wormer played a large part, along with the sportfishers in the area, in stopping the gill netting in the East Cape while he was the Director for Tourism for BCS (http://www.mexfish.com/ecap/ecap/af020422/af020422.htm. An artistic example of Mexican politics. He stopped it in the area he was covering, but had no impact in other areas, even in the same state he was a government member in.

Understand that I am not criticizing -- far from it. Given the environment, I am amazed he was able to accomplish as much as he did.

[Edited on 5-14-2008 by Roberto]

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