BajaNomad - Mexican tourism spinmeister: It's not the crime, it's the border wait time

Mexican tourism spinmeister: It's not the crime, it's the border wait time

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 10:17 AM

http://elvigia.net/noticias/?seccion=generales&id=43949

"Pierde BC 10 millones de turistas"
Ensenada, B. C. - Alrededor de 10 millones de turistas estadounidenses dejaron de visitar Baja California durante el periodo 2007-2008 en comparación al 2006-2007, pero no fue por la inseguridad que se registra en la entidad, sino por la demora en los cruces fronterizos."

Translation:

10 Million Baja Tourists Lost

Ensenada, B. C. -- About 10 million fewer American tourists visited Baja California during the period 2007-2008 as compared to 2006-2007, but it was not due to the lack of security in Baja, it was due to the delays at border crossings.

:lol:

bajalou - 6-10-2008 at 10:39 AM

I believe that they have a valid point, Who would want to cross the border for a afternoon shopping or lunch or dinner and have a 1-2 hour or longer wait to return to the US?

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 10:43 AM

We've talked to a few artisans on the via Popotla in Rosarito- which is supposed to be the place to buy local furniture, pottery, etc- and many are closed or are soon closing. One man told us business was the worst in his 45 years and he has given up hope for this summer.

I'm sure those on the walking tours of TJ have noticed the shuttered businesses there too.

Spin it is- it's not the border wait making toursits stay home... It's the crime stupid! I'm sure all those people driving to Mexico to save buck a gallon on gas are happy...

Among the ten killed in the past few days was a lady shot in the back during a carjacking attempt. The cop that was killed got into a bar fight in TJ at 5am- so that's pretty normal for Mexico. The group of people killed on blvd 2000 were reported to have been having a drinking party at the crime scene that night as many alcohol bottles were found (and not those of the killers). In the back seat of the car was stolen car parts.

Cypress - 6-10-2008 at 10:48 AM

Sounds reasonable enough, along with the higher fuel costs, folks don't want to spend any more time behind the wheel than necessary.

Iflyfish - 6-10-2008 at 11:10 AM

Crime and Mexophobia. People read, they hear the news. When I mention my Mexico travels and love of Mexico I hear "You mean you go there, aren't you afraid?" "I would never dare go there" etc. This is from people from all over the states and Canada.

Maybe border crossing time is an issue for those who live along the border, not up here!

Iflyfish

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Sounds reasonable enough, along with the higher fuel costs, folks don't want to spend any more time behind the wheel than necessary.

Have you ever seen this website?:
http://apps.cbp.gov/bwt/

Right now, at 11AM on a Tuesday morning, the pedestrian line at San Ysidro is a 5 minute wait. The non-sentri auto wait is 1:12. It has always been about that long in the middle of the day...even way back before 9/11.

What you are seeing is the typlical Mexican political ploy to try to pass-off the problem on the US, which controls the border.

Nancy Conroy nailed those jerk-offs in an article last year:

http://mexidata.info/id1634.html

Cypress - 6-10-2008 at 11:25 AM

fulano,

That sounds reasonable.

There's always more than one way to look at a situation.

Guess it all boils down to the big "F's". Fuel, Fear and Finances.

Fuel and Finances are very important if you're on the road.

Fear is state of mind, no matter where you are.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Crime and Mexophobia. People read, they hear the news. When I mention my Mexico travels and love of Mexico I hear "You mean you go there, aren't you afraid?" "I would never dare go there" etc. This is from people from all over the states and Canada.

Maybe border crossing time is an issue for those who live along the border, not up here!

Iflyfish

My own family is increasingly questioning my sanity for living here. I tell them that I love Mexico and the Mexican people (I'd better because it's half the family). Even my Mexican relatives have questioned why I put myself at risk and they say it's not a good time to be a guero in TJ/Rosarito.

I then quickly add that I think TJ and the aggressive tijuaneros have little to do with the real Mexican people. Then again- maybe I'm trying to put a positive spin on the rest of Mexico that doesn't even exist any more.

Several of our Mexican cousins have been the targetred victims of kidnapping threats because they own a small hardware store in TJ. They moved away for six months and returned to a different house.

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2008 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
I believe that they have a valid point, Who would want to cross the border for a afternoon shopping or lunch or dinner and have a 1-2 hour or longer wait to return to the US?

As a san diegan, I find i no longer take short trips to TJ only because of the wait coming back.
the border waits have hurt BOTH san diegan and TJ businesses, because waits caused by US govt have cut day trippers. basicly, US govt is hurting biz on both sides of borderthru it's inaction in increasing number of lanes and number of inspectors.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Imagine what the trip would be like if you had to enter Mexico with every car being checked and inspected like northbound. The southbound lanes would be backed up to downtown san diego

tripledigitken - 6-10-2008 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

The lines at Tijuana have caused us to cross at Tecate for our multiday trips to Baja.

They have eliminated our dinner trips we used to do in Tijuana on a Saturday night.

Ken

BajaSerg - 6-10-2008 at 11:43 AM

Well for me it’s the gas, now we go to are place in Rosarito few time a month or less….it’s costing me at lease 100 buck a round trip were it us to cost 40 buck to fill up my F-150 and an other 100 buck for the rest of the week. I’m filling the pinch. :no:

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 12:35 PM

Here's border wait times from the Mexican perspective.

http://www.planetabaja.com/garitas_html.cgi

It would be interesting to know how things have affected the flow of Mexican tourists going on a day trip to the states. Don't suppose that's possible though.

Anyway, If Mexico is nothing else, she is consistant. If it's bad, blame the USA. Their scapegoat sniveling has become cumbersome and monotonous.

Cypress - 6-10-2008 at 01:42 PM

DENNIS,

Cumbersome! Good word.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 02:12 PM

I have to agree with cumbersome.

Mexico should adopt the law President Chavez was going to enact for Venuzuela- basinally that citizens are required by law to turn in any criminal they have knowledge of to a specail unit of the federal government. Mexicans don't have the intestinal fortitude to do that without a law- yet that's all it would take to root-out the worms that are killing Mexico. They love a good crook down here and all know one and even elect them (Hank). They blame everyone else but themselves and Mexico- when they could solve the narco-problem if the citizens would step up and identify the culprits without fear of retribution. But without fear of retribution does not exist in Mexico.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Imagine what the trip would be like if you had to enter Mexico with every car being checked and inspected like northbound. The southbound lanes would be backed up to downtown san diego

I do agree that more crossing lanes and points of entry would help both sides.

While they are filling-in smugglers gultch (Playas de Tijuana) with millions of cubic yards of dirt- why not add a direct border crossing? They've already killed everything eco-sensitive and the decades of toxic pollution in the TJ Estuary has most likely genetically modified any species we were protecting anyway.

It's a brilliant crossing point if Mexico is serious about restoring tourism and security. A direct connect to the Cuoto toll road, no running the Via Rapido gauntlet in TJ, no TJ police at all! You'd get dropped right off stateside in Imperial Beach- who could use a financial leg up as well.

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Mexico should adopt the law President Chavez was going to enact for Venuzuela- basinally that citizens are required by law to turn in any criminal they have knowledge of to a specail unit of the federal government.

25% of Mexico's GDP is from criminal activities: drugs, mordida, theft, etc. It's the 2nd largest source of revenues, after oil.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Quote:

25% of Mexico's GDP is from criminal activities: drugs, mordida, theft, etc. It's the 2nd largest source of revenues, after oil.

Mexico is going to broke in less than a year anyway. It's just a matter if they go bust in a civilized manner like Argentina or all hell breaks loose. I'm predicting the latter unless they get a grip on the crime now.

There's no way Mexico can survive financially: declining federal revenues, subsidizing gasoline prices at the pump, decling tourism dollars, decling real estate investment, and with the 2% tax on all bank deposit exceeding $2500 in July- declining bank liquidity. They're toast.

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
It would be interesting to know how things have affected the flow of Mexican tourists going on a day trip to the states. Don't suppose that's possible though.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080311/news_1n11cr...

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

25% of Mexico's GDP is from criminal activities: drugs, mordida, theft, etc. It's the 2nd largest source of revenues, after oil.

I thought remittances were number two.

tripledigitken - 6-10-2008 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Quote:

25% of Mexico's GDP is from criminal activities: drugs, mordida, theft, etc. It's the 2nd largest source of revenues, after oil.

Fulano,

How has have these issues affected your travels to Baja?

Ken

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080311/news_1n11cr...

Thanks, fulano.That answers a good part of my question from a merchants point of view. Wish we had access to a Mexican site similar to Nomad to really get a feel of the common citizen point of view instead of some paid government liar.

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 03:17 PM

Quote:

Hitler's Youth Corp revisited.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 03:29 PM

The way the peso is headed- yes remittances are #2 right now and in need of a wipe.

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Fulano,
How has have these issues affected your travels to Baja?
Ken

They haven't. I stopped travelling to Baja a few years back when I became very ill and had to stay close to my doctors. I still pop in to TJ every once in awhile because my dentist is there. I usually have a lunch at Cafe La Especial, stop by El Rey del Tamales on Ninos Heroes to pick up a couple dozen tamales to bring back, and head home.

You don't know me, but the other half of my family is Latino. So I can practice all the Spanish and get all the sizzle and smoke of things Latino without having to travel. I think you live in Lakeside, and I live up the hill in Ramona. You already know the climate here is the same as in Baja, so I don' t need the change in climate like the Canucks.

After being married to a Latina for 30-years, and living in Latino households with suegras, cunadas, sobrinos and primos for years, it's hard for me to find anything exotic about being in Baja. It's just another place to me. But I do like the people and really feel sorry for the incredible mierda they have to put up with living in Mexico with a 3rd world infrastructure, with an oppressive patronage system and a joke of a judical system.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Hitler's Youth Corp revisited.

I'll bite. If the Mexicans could be half as effective at identifying and wiping out the corrupt and narcos as the Hitler Youth was at identifying jews, gays and gypsies for extermination... this narco war would end.

McCarthyism anyone for dessert? IMHO people get the government they deserve. As long as the Mexican people are sheep they will be slaughtered. I hope the La Raza convention in San Diego next month addresses how important it is for all Mexican activists to return to Mexico to save it while there is still time. Change comes from the people and they need to cowboy-up. What they lack is leadership- because the leaders get killed the first time they open their mouths down here.

As bad as Saddam Hussein was, he kept the mess that is Iraq basically "together-apart" but the people were better off overall with him in power- even with his huge flaws. We've killed and displaced thousands more Iraqis than Saddam ever would have. He was a tyrant- but for them it worked in a twisted cruel way than is life in the Muslim world. People have and ususally get the government they deserve.

[Edited on 6-10-2008 by Woooosh]

jodiego - 6-10-2008 at 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Hitler's Youth Corp revisited.

Sounds a lot like George Bush and one of his Homeland Security tactics. Hmmmm Bush...Hitler

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I hope the La Raza convention in San Diego next month addresses how important it is for all Mexican activists to return to Mexico to save it while there is still time.

That is soooo funny or it would be if the thought of upcoming rhetoric at the convention center didn't make me sick. As long as the convention runs, I have to remember to not be anywhere near a news source without my barf bag.
Oh yeah, our presidential candidates are going to drop in just to kiss some Latino butt by promising to give away more of our country.
The thought of them returning is a comfy one at that. This time, they could use the road.

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Wish we had access to a Mexican site similar to Nomad to really get a feel of the common citizen point of view instead of some paid government liar.

There's lot's of Mexican Forums out there. Try this index:

http://foro.forosmexico.com/index.php

People are the same all over the world.

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

People are the same all over the world.

Kumbaya, brother fulano. Have you visited Off Topic lately?

fulano - 6-10-2008 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

People are the same all over the world.

Kumbaya, brother fulano. Have you visited Off Topic lately?

Why do you suppose I said people are the same all over the world?
:rolleyes:

DENNIS - 6-10-2008 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Why do you suppose I said people are the same all over the world?

OK...I'm catching up. It's been a hard day.

Woooosh - 6-10-2008 at 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I hope the La Raza convention in San Diego next month addresses how important it is for all Mexican activists to return to Mexico to save it while there is still time.

Yeah, I know La Raza will never addess the real issue, even when just 20 miles from it. La Raza is holding seminars and workshops on the real problems for latinos- "of particular interest- the mortgage crisis."

Wouldn't that make a great political cartoon--- La Raza fiddling in San Diego while TJ is burning?

Freebird - 6-11-2008 at 02:53 PM

US people is afraid of police, robbery and narcos all along Tj-Rosarito areas. That´s the truth. Waiting times at the line are the same as usual...

Quote:

Mexico is different from Argentina. I was born in Argentina and live in Mexico (Rosarito) and knowing the situation I tell you, Mexico has stronger economy, a bigger GDP and a shared border with USA... last one counts.

Iflyfish - 6-11-2008 at 07:50 PM

Freebird, I find your post interesting. It is useful to hear from another Latin American perspective.

Does the phrase Ne Modo have the same meaning in Argentina? Does that concept underly thinking there?

I doubt that things are that different for the average Mexican than it was under the Ciques, Spanish or the Church. Stand up and you are beheaded and your family enslaved. Stand up against the Cartels and you die. Trust only family. Seventy five years of one party rule and now two elections of Norte types in office. Not much time for a learning curve. I sincerly wonder if the police and military are outgunned in this current situation where the population does not dare to confront the perps?

Iflyfish

Freebird - 6-11-2008 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Does the phrase Ne Modo have the same meaning in Argentina? Does that concept underly thinking there?

Nope, there´s no similar phrase in Argentina :lol:

ni modo (no way).

I love Mexico but...

Many people in Mexico would like to be a narco (not all of them, of course). They love narco corridos (narco music), narco living... to be poor and to live in the north of Mexico is a great temptation of easy money. Is not easy some order in a corrupted society.

Quote:

.....I sincerly wonder if the police and military are outgunned in this current situation where the population does not dare to confront the perps?

right. Security forces are outgunned but they also are part of the problem Corruption and infiltration from the narco is nothing new but it seems nobody cares.

BajaGringo - 6-11-2008 at 08:49 PM

I am not Argentine by birth but I lived there for many years (Tucuman/Buenos Aires) and my son still lives there, working as an attorney in Buenos Aires. When "mi pais de los Gauchos y Gardel" went throught the last economic crisis, it was not all "civil", believe me. Ask any "porteño" what life was like in the city fronting el Rio del La Plata during that time period and they will tell you some stories. I was however amazed and in awe of how those resourceful people with a "never say die" attitude found ways to invent their own economy when the government lost control of the currency. Someone needs to make a movie based on the story of how they somehow survived and prospered.

That having been said, I miss spending time in San Telmo, Palermo and going to see my favorite team, "Los Millonarios" - River Plate on Sunday. If you haven't been inside the stadium during a match of River Plate - Boca Juniors, then you could never appreciate what a spectacular event soccer can truly be.

They converted this dumb old Gringo 30+ years ago...

Woooosh - 6-11-2008 at 09:19 PM

I have been to Buenos Aires twice since the economic collapse and the people still talk in whispers about their government. They are tough yet refined- it must be their european social roots (at least for the portenos). There's no trust or love for sure for the government and the current soybean crisis will test them again. The Mexican people are different because Mexico is young. Mexico can't afford eight years of stupid like george bush gave the USA.

Given the short term of the Nortenos ruling in Mexico- are the Mexican people waiting to see who the winning side will be (narcos or corrupt gov't) before they give their support? Did we learn anything from Hank Rohn being elected mayor of TJ but denied the governorship? (Now he's only a casino owner and private zookeeper) What is it that the mexican peolpe want for their government and country?

[Edited on 6-12-2008 by Woooosh]

sloopy - 6-12-2008 at 06:44 AM

Well, I'm like Fulano in that my wife is from Mexico and has a large family here and also south in Jalisco. I use to travel to Mexicali about 25 times a year on business as well as Ensenada, driving between the two through Tecate. My wife and I use to spend time in Rosarito and Ensenada, as well.
Since retiring and with everything we've read, heard and been told about Baja since, we really don't have a desire to return. The return wait is bad enough (I hate waiting in any line.) but I've traveled enough in my career (about 250,000 miles a year) to know when enough is enough and don't push the luck button too often. Once in a great while it won't work and no "EASY" button is available. I love Mexico, the country, the people, the history. But until the day they get things changed for the betterment of the people, Mexico and Mexicans in general will suffer at the hands of those they fear......their govt. and ours, the police, authority in general, drug cartels, young hoods, etc.
It'll take many decades before things start to happen, in my humble opinion. "It is what it is"........unfortunately.

Woooosh - 6-12-2008 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sloopy
It'll take many decades before things start to happen, in my humble opinion. "It is what it is"........unfortunately.

Maybe I'm expecting too much grass roots change from Mexicans. I guess the reality is the Mexicans in the USA figured out nothing was going to change in their lifetimes and headed north for a better lifer for their families and grandchildren. There is nothing in their history that encourages them to fight. The Spanish wiped the true Mexicans out and replaced their values with aggression and greed a century ago.

Iflyfish - 6-12-2008 at 10:31 AM

I appreciate the Argentine perspective. I wonder if there are other Latin American posters who could enlighten us on this issue.

Does the phrase Ne Modo have the same meaning the rest of Latin America? Does that concept underly thinking there?

I doubt that things are that different for the average Mexican than it was under the Ciques, Spanish or the Church. Stand up and you are beheaded and your family enslaved. Stand up against the Cartels and you die. Trust only family. Seventy five years of one party rule and now two elections of Norte types in office. Not much time for a learning curve. I sincerly wonder if the police and military are outgunned in this current situation where the population does not dare to confront the perps?

Iflyfish

Freebird - 6-12-2008 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

........Mexico can't afford eight years of stupid like george bush gave the USA.

Interesting...

BajaGringo - 6-12-2008 at 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Freebird

Quote:

........Mexico can't afford eight years of stupid like george bush gave the USA.

Interesting...

To me it's more like... OBVIOUS!

:?:

Ditto for me--Hermano !! 'Cept we live in Az.

beercan - 6-12-2008 at 07:57 PM

Quote:

by Fulano
You don't know me, but the other half of my family is Latino. So I can practice all the Spanish and get all the sizzle and smoke of things Latino without having to travel. I think you live in Lakeside, and I live up the hill in Ramona. You already know the climate here is the same as in Baja, so I don' t need the change in climate like the Canucks.

bajamigo - 6-12-2008 at 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Hitler's Youth Corp revisited.

Kind of like this one:

"Operation TIPS—the Terrorism Information and Prevention System—is one of the latest initiatives of the Bush administration’s “war on terrorism.” According to a statement posted as recently as last week on the government’s web site, TIPS “will be a nationwide program giving millions of American truckers, letters carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees, and others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity.”