BajaNomad

Estimado Amigo BAJA CACTUS

davidre - 6-14-2008 at 09:22 PM

Your gasolinera has always had accurate fuel dispensers. Mi pregunta deals with PROFECO and exactly what happens to a gasolinera if fuel delivery should prove to be inaccurate. On the mainland I see stations that have a yellow plastic ribbon wrapped around some pumps with the imprinted words "INMOVILIZADO" and the PROFECO name.

Chisme has it that if a pump becomes INMOVILIZADO it can be used again. A new tamper-proof pump must replace it. Some say that the station has to pay a fine and flagrant or repeated violations have landed station owners in the BOTE.

Nos gringos tienes recruedos muy largo when it comes to encountering dishonest gasolineras, be it in Mexico or elsewhere.

¡Mil Gracias! For Your Help And Enthusiasm

David...

BajaCactus - 6-15-2008 at 01:18 AM

Thank you for your nice comments about our Gas Station... we do make our best effort to treat our customers with honor and respect... Do not we all deserve at least that?

Your question has a very complex answer...

There are several reasons for Profeco to immobilize a gas dispenser... some are purely administrative and others are because the pump is truly dispensing inaccurately.

Talking about the correct measuring of the liters... because of the effects of temperature on fuel and also because all pumps measuring systems have some degree of mechanical instrumentation, there is an authorized margin for the pumps inaccuracy, being this 100 milliliters for every 20 liters dispensed... anything above or beyond that and the pump gets immobilized, plus the station owner gets a very heavy fine. Besides, once the fine is paid, reactivating such pump could take more than 3 months.

Now, Pemex regulations states that every Gas Dispenser in use within Mexico must have a valid permit for commercialization, certified only by the Cenam Government Agency (our Regulatory Measurement Agency). Every gas dispenser manufacturer must provide them, amongst other things, with blueprints for the entire electrical and mechanical diagrams of such unit, as well as manuals, programming codes, etc.

Why is this important?...Well, Profeco has now access to all these materials, and now they are authorized to also inspect and compare all the entrails of the pumps and compare them to the original specifications... if they find something "weird" they are authorized to immediately close down the Gas Station and put the owner and manager under arrest until everything is fully investigated.

They are also entitled to check that the Gas Station has all the paperwork (many inches of paperwork per unit) and latest certification for the pumps being used... if not they can immobilized and fine the owner.

They also check if the Profeco stickers on the outside of the pumps are immaculate, no scratches or nothing, if not the pump gets immobilized.

They can also check every print sticker on the inside of the electronic hardware cards... if they do not like them... you guess it, the pump gets immobilized.

There are many other little things they look for, and if there is anything, just a little thing they do not like... yes, they immobilize.

Now, no matter if the pumps are working and dispensing perfectly, if there is one piece of paper missing in your office, they shut down the pump and place those little, yellow, tiny immobilization stickers (if you have not seen them, they measure around 17" by 22") without any explanation whatsoever to the public for the reason of the problem... so of course, everyone could think they are cheating their customers.

We had a bad experience last year... a Profeco inspection arrive with us and checked every pump, inside and out, made three measurements of every single hose we have at the dispensers with special equipment they carry and did many other tests... everyone of our pumps got a perfect score... all of them within very acceptable parameters... they even had the cynicism to tell us that they could not believe the results, that is was impossible for such perfect results, and were going to repeat the measurement tests.

So, on they went to the paperwork... we had everything... of course I had asked for every needed paper several months ago... well... out of the many inches of paper, there was this one paper that had a stamp in copy, not original. My supplier had missed an original stamp there and replaced that particular sheet with a copy... well... they went on to shut down all the dispensers... yes... they wanted to immobilized every one of the pumps, in effect shutting down the Gas Station and arguing that there was also a small scratch in one of the Profeco stamps in the outside of one of the dispensers.

I was here in Tijuana and immediately contacted my supplier and within 30 minutes I had in my hand the piece of paper missing the original stamp just as they wanted it... I offer to leave immediately and have it there in 4 hours, I offer to send them a copy, we offer them a meal and a free stay at BajaCactus while they waited for me... we did everything in our power and they did not listen... they were filling up the official documentation for shutting down the whole gas station. I thought "Of course, I know what this guys want!!!... and against my whole integrity I asked my manager t o "investigate" what their "true" intentions were... no luck... they just were very mean people.

I finally got a hold of one of their bosses in Mexico city and explained everything, including that I had what they needed and that I could be there ASAP, asking for them to be reasonable... no luck... it was not until I told their boss that they were going to leave a whole town and a huge gap at Mexico 1, without fuel for who knows how long, when he agreed to ask Pemex if this was true... Can you believe that?... One hour later I received a call telling us that they were only shutting down half the Gas Station... What!!!... Well... you can imagine every curse and word I was thinking.

Well... they went on to put those little stickers of immobilization on half the pumps, gave us a huge fine (over $4,000 Dlls)... Six hours had passed since they arrive at BajaCactus and asked for that original stamp.

It took me more than a month to enable the pumps again... and only because I went personally to Mexico City to make all the paperwork... the usual time is around 3-4 months.

Of course... if they find that you covered the pumps with anything that impedes the view to any part of the small sticker, they give you another fine... and of course to everyone passing by, we indeed were caught stealing people... very embarrassing... and the worst is that we had no ways of defense... just imagine explaining all of these to everyone passing by... Would you believe it?

Now David, getting back to your question...if you get dispensing inaccurately... depending on the reason you get a fine, immobilized and you can probably go to jail. You may also be asked to replace your pumps for another model if you want to continue operations.

Can you get back your pumps working?... Yes... after a huge fine and lots of documents... unless you were caught deliberately stealing people, in which case you loose the franchise and go to jail.

In the following Profeco page you can check the supposed status of any Gas Station in Mexico, according to Profeco of course...but let me tell you that this page can be misleading sometimes and show you a Gas Station in "RED", but it does not explains exactly why it is in this state, so everyone thinks the worst (we were in Red for a month last year)... I think you get the picture : http://webapps.profeco.gob.mx/verificacion/gasolina/

Sorry for the long post... at least I hope I have cleared some of your doubts my friends.

BajaCactus
"Where the Baja is so much more than a dream..."

[Edited on 6-15-2008 by BajaCactus]

Bob and Susan - 6-15-2008 at 05:40 AM

and all the time i thought it was because the pumps leaked....

what a nightmare...

DianaT - 6-15-2008 at 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaCactus

I was here in Tijuana and immediately contacted my supplier and within 30 minutes I had in my hand the piece of paper missing the original stamp just as they wanted it... I offer to leave immediately and have it there in 4 hours,


Unless it is at a time when there is no slowdown in Ensenada or San Quintin, not sure I would want to ride with you. :lol::lol::lol:

What a nightmare for you. Your station has had such a good reputation for so long that I don't think many, including us, would even notice any stickers. But for you, that was awful. Can't believe you had to go to Mexico City.

Thanks for the very informative answer.

Diane

shari - 6-15-2008 at 10:02 AM

Gracias mi estimado for an enlightening explanation. This is a perfect example of how perceptions in mexico are a sticky issue. Tourists jump to conclusions based on rumor, visual cues, a little info usually passed on by other ignorant parties and pass judgement without all the information. Many times here, the explanations are very complex, long and involved and sometimes difficult to understand by foreigners. Things are often NOT as they appear. This is one of the valuable things about this board...some rumors, misunderstandings, lies etc. can be discussed, revealed, explained and straightened out or at least some light shed on the problems. Mexico is a very complex country and there is usually A LOT going on behind the scenes that most people don't know about.

We are living through a time of great change here...hopefully giving birth to a new era which is always painfull. I salute you Antonio. Feliz Dia del Padre!

BajaGringo - 6-15-2008 at 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shariThings are often NOT as they appear. This is one of the valuable things about this board...some rumors, misunderstandings, lies etc. can be discussed, revealed, explained and straightened out or at least some light shed on the problems.

We are living through a time of great change here...hopefully giving birth to a new era which is always painfull. I salute you Antonio. Feliz Dia del Padre!


From your lips to God's (and BN members) ears...

Freebird - 6-15-2008 at 02:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaCactus
Thank you for your nice comments about our Gas Station... we do make our best effort to treat our customers with honor and respect... Do not we all deserve at least that?

Your question has a very complex answer...

There are several reasons for Profeco to immobilize a gas dispenser... some are purely administrative and others are because the pump is truly dispensing inaccurately.

Talking about the correct measuring of the liters... because of the effects of temperature on fuel and also because all pumps measuring systems have some degree of mechanical instrumentation, there is an authorized margin for the pumps inaccuracy, being this 100 milliliters for every 20 liters dispensed... anything above or beyond that and the pump gets immobilized, plus the station owner gets a very heavy fine. Besides, once the fine is paid, reactivating such pump could take more than 3 months.

Now, Pemex regulations states that every Gas Dispenser in use within Mexico must have a valid permit for commercialization, certified only by the Cenam Government Agency (our Regulatory Measurement Agency). Every gas dispenser manufacturer must provide them, amongst other things, with blueprints for the entire electrical and mechanical diagrams of such unit, as well as manuals, programming codes, etc.

Why is this important?...Well, Profeco has now access to all these materials, and now they are authorized to also inspect and compare all the entrails of the pumps and compare them to the original specifications... if they find something "weird" they are authorized to immediately close down the Gas Station and put the owner and manager under arrest until everything is fully investigated.

They are also entitled to check that the Gas Station has all the paperwork (many inches of paperwork per unit) and latest certification for the pumps being used... if not they can immobilized and fine the owner.

They also check if the Profeco stickers on the outside of the pumps are immaculate, no scratches or nothing, if not the pump gets immobilized.

They can also check every print sticker on the inside of the electronic hardware cards... if they do not like them... you guess it, the pump gets immobilized.

There are many other little things they look for, and if there is anything, just a little thing they do not like... yes, they immobilize.

Now, no matter if the pumps are working and dispensing perfectly, if there is one piece of paper missing in your office, they shut down the pump and place those little, yellow, tiny immobilization stickers (if you have not seen them, they measure around 17" by 22") without any explanation whatsoever to the public for the reason of the problem... so of course, everyone could think they are cheating their customers.

We had a bad experience last year... a Profeco inspection arrive with us and checked every pump, inside and out, made three measurements of every single hose we have at the dispensers with special equipment they carry and did many other tests... everyone of our pumps got a perfect score... all of them within very acceptable parameters... they even had the cynicism to tell us that they could not believe the results, that is was impossible for such perfect results, and were going to repeat the measurement tests.

So, on they went to the paperwork... we had everything... of course I had asked for every needed paper several months ago... well... out of the many inches of paper, there was this one paper that had a stamp in copy, not original. My supplier had missed an original stamp there and replaced that particular sheet with a copy... well... they went on to shut down all the dispensers... yes... they wanted to immobilized every one of the pumps, in effect shutting down the Gas Station and arguing that there was also a small scratch in one of the Profeco stamps in the outside of one of the dispensers.

I was here in Tijuana and immediately contacted my supplier and within 30 minutes I had in my hand the piece of paper missing the original stamp just as they wanted it... I offer to leave immediately and have it there in 4 hours, I offer to send them a copy, we offer them a meal and a free stay at BajaCactus while they waited for me... we did everything in our power and they did not listen... they were filling up the official documentation for shutting down the whole gas station. I thought "Of course, I know what this guys want!!!... and against my whole integrity I asked my manager t o "investigate" what their "true" intentions were... no luck... they just were very mean people.

I finally got a hold of one of their bosses in Mexico city and explained everything, including that I had what they needed and that I could be there ASAP, asking for them to be reasonable... no luck... it was not until I told their boss that they were going to leave a whole town and a huge gap at Mexico 1, without fuel for who knows how long, when he agreed to ask Pemex if this was true... Can you believe that?... One hour later I received a call telling us that they were only shutting down half the Gas Station... What!!!... Well... you can imagine every curse and word I was thinking.

Well... they went on to put those little stickers of immobilization on half the pumps, gave us a huge fine (over $4,000 Dlls)... Six hours had passed since they arrive at BajaCactus and asked for that original stamp.

It took me more than a month to enable the pumps again... and only because I went personally to Mexico City to make all the paperwork... the usual time is around 3-4 months.

Of course... if they find that you covered the pumps with anything that impedes the view to any part of the small sticker, they give you another fine... and of course to everyone passing by, we indeed were caught stealing people... very embarrassing... and the worst is that we had no ways of defense... just imagine explaining all of these to everyone passing by... Would you believe it?

Now David, getting back to your question...if you get dispensing inaccurately... depending on the reason you get a fine, immobilized and you can probably go to jail. You may also be asked to replace your pumps for another model if you want to continue operations.

Can you get back your pumps working?... Yes... after a huge fine and lots of documents... unless you were caught deliberately stealing people, in which case you loose the franchise and go to jail.

In the following Profeco page you can check the supposed status of any Gas Station in Mexico, according to Profeco of course...but let me tell you that this page can be misleading sometimes and show you a Gas Station in "RED", but it does not explains exactly why it is in this state, so everyone thinks the worst (we were in Red for a month last year)... I think you get the picture : http://webapps.profeco.gob.mx/verificacion/gasolina/

Sorry for the long post... at least I hope I have cleared some of your doubts my friends.

BajaCactus
"Where the Baja is so much more than a dream..."

[Edited on 6-15-2008 by BajaCactus]


Profeco is the same as the local police, they know where the malandros are, but mordidas are everyday issue.
The Tj-Rosarito zone is full of fuel cheaters. They should go and get them, not the honest dispensers working hard to give a good service for the people.

Feliz dia del padre!!

Cypress - 6-15-2008 at 02:38 PM

Just bypass the crooked dealers.:bounce: Park it and walk when your rig sputters to a halt. "Empty".:biggrin:

Sharksbaja - 6-15-2008 at 03:00 PM

OMG what a hassle. Mucho suerte!

Say, what is the official name of your station Antonio? I wasn't able to key in on it on the Profeco site.

ES 3086

BajaCactus - 6-15-2008 at 03:23 PM

Sharksbaja... it is much easier to find a Gas Station by it's public identification number given by Pemex... it is the black number on the Pemex main sign at every Gas Station... ours is ES 3086.

This number is also a consecutive one, as they were incorporated into Pemex... in our case, we were the 3086 gas station to be registered with Pemex. On the Profeco site just input the number without the ES.

Thank you everyone for your support and nice words... Happy Fathers Day!!!

Antonio M.
BajaCactus
"Where the Baja is so much more than a dream..."

Russ - 6-15-2008 at 03:50 PM

Yesterday I was ecstatic to get only 20 liters in my 19 liter cans. That was at the Mulege station on the hwy. Usually they're able to put in 22 to 23 liters. I've never questioned Antonio's pumps always seems to jive with what my gauge says. Looking forward to his restroom upgrades though. Oh, and I always tip if the guy comes out and pumps for me. Gives me an opportunity to practice my "Spanish". I'm sure they have a good laugh after I leave:spingrin:

Capt. George - 6-16-2008 at 05:52 AM

Ah Russ, but at least you try the local lingo (as I do)

I know it's much appreciated and, as you said, good practice