BajaNomad

Baja: Not Mexican enough!

memo - 7-3-2008 at 10:39 AM

Since we moved to Mexico: Walmart, Costco and Home Depot have opened close by. Appleby's, Carls Junior and Burger King weren't far behind. The general population demographics of southern california and northern baja are very similar. Real estate prices in Baja are not far behind prices in california. Restaurant prices in my experience are higher in baja than california. Cost of home electronics are much higher in baja. Can anyone tell me what happened to Mexico? Where did it go?

[Edited on 7-3-2008 by memo]

Barry A. - 7-3-2008 at 10:44 AM

:lol::o:lol::o:lol::o

I am thinking that "only you can answer that question".

A tough one---------

Eugenio - 7-3-2008 at 10:49 AM

We have met the enemy and - oh - forget it.

Osprey - 7-3-2008 at 10:51 AM

Thanks a lot Memo. Now all the gringos will be climbing the wall to come down here, make a better life for themselves.

fulano - 7-3-2008 at 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by memo
The general population demographics of southern california and northern baja are very similar. Real estate prices in Baja are not far behind prices in california. Restaurant prices in my experience are higher in baja than california. Cost of home electronics are much higher in baja.


Great, now all the rest of the Mexicans will be moving to California for our cheap food and electronics.

:lol:

rpleger - 7-3-2008 at 11:27 AM

¿WHAT?

Thats like saying, Where are the frigging cowboys in California.

You are nuts..

Cypress - 7-3-2008 at 11:27 AM

memo, Agree with your observations. :) Baja has morphed into an extension of southern CA.:D

vandenberg - 7-3-2008 at 01:10 PM

Yeah :rolleyes:
Loreto Bay or Malibu south, without the Hollywood flakes.:P:biggrin:

Don't tell me

Lee - 7-3-2008 at 01:20 PM

Todos Santos the New Santa Fe. Wait wait I think it was the New Malibu South.

Old MX? Try La Paz. MX enough for me. BEST town in BCS but nobody asked me.

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-3-2008 at 01:22 PM


No matter how much TJ changes, it's still the same

Lee - 7-3-2008 at 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTI8


STILL love TJ! Don't care how CRAZY it gets. It just FEELS like MX. Can't explain it. Must be the Mexicans.

motoged - 7-3-2008 at 01:49 PM

Memo,
What are you missing?

Taking advantage of a "third world" country's poverty?
Expecting the "natives" to smile and bow as they deliver your meal?
The feeling that somehow their "quaintness" is disappearing?


Baja is it's own unique part of Mexico and does not have much of the colonial influence that the mainland has...it is closer to Kalifornia than the mainland in regards to direct traveller influences. Maybe some people think that such corporate invasion is progress....

I don't like the pervasiveness of those McD's and Home Depots, etc north of Tecate any more than you seem to feel about them springing up south of the border.

Since the USA seems to be the financial home for such "invaders", you might direct your concerns to the corporate greed fueling such "development".

Such corporate invasions have sullied the romantic notions of other countries all over the planet.

The world is certainly changing....too bad some cultural influences from other countries don't influence North America in ways that help people respect each other more, develop stronger and healthier family ties, and see beyond the illusion of "the American dream".

I prefer the outback and less developed areas of any country over their urban blight ....so I share the resentment of such corporate pollution.

Mango - 7-3-2008 at 02:32 PM

It's not just Baja that has changed, the mainland has gone though many changes as well. Big box stores, tract homes, atm's, cell phones, internet, ..you name it. Some good, some bad.

I'd agree that Baja often has more in common with California than Mexico.. But, that's mainly due to it's geography and history and has far less to do with all the gringos. It does disturb me to see gringos in some of the tourist areas make no effort to speak the local language... but I feel that is another issue.

Sometimes I shop in WalMart in Mexico; but, not at Walmart in the States. Of all the times I've been to WalMart in Mexico, I've yet to see another gringo in the store shopping. I suppose they didn't really build it for gringos did they?

Barry A. - 7-3-2008 at 02:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by motoged
Memo,
What are you missing?

Taking advantage of a "third world" country's poverty?
Expecting the "natives" to smile and bow as they deliver your meal?
The feeling that somehow their "quaintness" is disappearing?


Baja is it's own unique part of Mexico and does not have much of the colonial influence that the mainland has...it is closer to Kalifornia than the mainland in regards to direct traveller influences. Maybe some people think that such corporate invasion is progress....

I don't like the pervasiveness of those McD's and Home Depots, etc north of Tecate any more than you seem to feel about them springing up south of the border.

Since the USA seems to be the financial home for such "invaders", you might direct your concerns to the corporate greed fueling such "development".

Such corporate invasions have sullied the romantic notions of other countries all over the planet.

The world is certainly changing....too bad some cultural influences from other countries don't influence North America in ways that help people respect each other more, develop stronger and healthier family ties, and see beyond the illusion of "the American dream".

I prefer the outback and less developed areas of any country over their urban blight ....so I share the resentment of such corporate pollution.


Moto-----With all respect, I believe what you say here is just silly. Corporations provide what people appear to want, pure and simple-------the whole idea of enterprise and capitolism is to make money. If you think that is "greed" then I don't know what to say. If people don't want it, then don't buy the product. This is like blaming auto accidents on the auto, or killings on guns--------both silly ideas----------PEOPLE cause the "happenings", not the objects.

I too miss the Mexico that I enjoyed for so many years (55+) and there are 100's of reasons that is so, and I believe that many of us feel the same way. Most of the reasons I went to Mexico in the first place are rapidly disappearing, and I don't apologize for feeling that way at all------it is called progress, and it is inevitable--------and I don't pass judgement on that---------it is just "not my thing" down there anymore-----I liked it the way it was.

You should be thrilled as you won't have to deal with folks like me anymore---------and I truly hope that you find all the pleasure that I once did in "Old Mexico". Everything is relative-------------but to criticise or put-down somebodies thoughts or feelings is not productive in my mind (tho I am doing the same thing, I suppose)

With that said, I will quit.

Barry

Cypress - 7-3-2008 at 02:53 PM

Shopping at WalMart!:o God forbid!!Only the poor low-class rabble shop there.:o You know, those penny-pinching red-necks that drive old beat-up vehicles and wear hand-me-downs rags.:)

Woooosh - 7-3-2008 at 03:18 PM

That's the reason the parking lots at Home Depot and CostCo in San Diego are filled with baja plates. Capitalism is indeed the culprit for northern Baja costing more for many things. Part is the import taxes on goods plus a 10% sales tax. The prices got higher because they could (supply and demand). But once demand has dropped, Mexico doesn't adjust prices downward to rekindle demand. The Mexican gov't tries to control some prices on food items- but lately that has backfired (fuel subsidy) because they really don't have the infrasturcture and revenue sources to support it. My Ford Escape hybrid was made in Mexico- and you can't even buy it down here. They will import one for full sticker price plus 10% tax for you though.

In the USA when times get tough companies market hard and discount quickly- not so in Mexico where the wheels turn slowly- if at all. They are just now finding out that house prices in San Diego are down 25% from two years ago- and still they make no attempt to adjust.

[Edited on 7-3-2008 by Woooosh]

memo - 7-3-2008 at 03:19 PM

Moto said:

The world is certainly changing....too bad some cultural influences from other countries don't influence North America in ways that help people respect each other more, develop stronger and healthier family ties, and see beyond the illusion of "the American dream".


Yeah, the US could learn from other cultures. The only problem is, I can't think of any specific examples right off hand. Perhaps you can name one or two countries? France? Oh, that's right, they borrowed our revolution. China? Oh, I forgot. They don't embrace human rights and they burn dirty coal. India? Great place if you happen to be a cow and not a starving human. Help me out here, Moto, I'm running fresh out of examples.

Baja is the glistening citadel on top of the hill compared to most of the world, make no mistake about it. The "corporate greed" you refer to is what will lift the population here out of poverty and into a better life. The "corporate invasion" as you call it is welcomed here, if not in northern california. I sometimes miss a slower and quieter time here which is rapidly vanishing, but it is a selfish sentiment. Someday the people of Baja will have all the advantages of the US: an open government, Bill of Rights, and the best justice system in the world. In the meantime their quickest path to a good life is a one way trip to the United States of America.

Mango - 7-3-2008 at 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Shopping at WalMart!:o God forbid!!Only the poor low-class rabble shop there.:o You know, those penny-pinching red-necks that drive old beat-up vehicles and wear hand-me-downs rags.:)


At 115 degrees in the shade.. just walking out in the sun here in Mexicali makes you an instant redneck. ;D

There is a WalMart pretty close to my place here in Mexicali, and mi novia likes to eat at VIP's(in the same parking lot). So I guess I'm personally responsible for Baja's demise now... :D

Normally, I wouldn't be caught dead in anything lesser than a Costco or Calimax. We even have a Starbucks down the street; but, I'm holding out because everyone in the "know" knows Pete's is better. :lol:

ElFaro - 7-3-2008 at 03:29 PM

When tacos are replaced by mashed potato sandwiches...then I'll be concerned. :lol:

Cypress - 7-3-2008 at 03:32 PM

Mango, :biggrin: Careful!!!:DYou don't want to be sterotyped/profiled:biggrin: A good umbrella might come in handy down your way.:biggrin:

bancoduo - 7-3-2008 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro
When tacos are replaced by mashed potato sandwiches...then I'll be concerned. :lol:
That started happening with some restaurants in Guadalajara in the sixties:rolleyes:

Martyman - 7-3-2008 at 03:51 PM

Italy is a country that has maintained their uniqueness and I only saw one McDonalds when I was there.

Barry A. - 7-3-2008 at 04:00 PM

Italy, tho delightful, is expensive. We spent 5 weeks there, and in Sicily, and tho we are bargain hunters (and we found some) generally it was more expensive than the USA. The USA dollar decline did not help.

We loved Italy------everywhere we visited-------Viva Italy.

barry

bent-rim - 7-3-2008 at 04:24 PM

Hate to burst your bubble, but I saw more McDonalds in Milan than there are in San Francisco.

805gregg - 7-3-2008 at 05:14 PM

One of my roofers returned to work after about 6 months back in his home in mainland Mexico. We were sitting talking he pulled out a 500 peso note, said this will buy a pair of work boots back home, pulled out a 100 peso and said this will buy beer, pulled out a 50 peso said this will buy tortillas. Looks like it's getting expensive even in Mexico.

sylens - 7-3-2008 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by memo
Since we moved to Mexico: Walmart, Costco and Home Depot have opened close by. Appleby's, Carls Junior and Burger King weren't far behind. The general population demographics of southern california and northern baja are very similar. Real estate prices in Baja are not far behind prices in california. Restaurant prices in my experience are higher in baja than california. Cost of home electronics are much higher in baja. Can anyone tell me what happened to Mexico? Where did it go?

[Edited on 7-3-2008 by memo]


prices of manufactured (especially electronic) goods have always been higher in mexico; it's the price of labor that was and remains lower than in the good ol' usa.

motoged - 7-3-2008 at 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.

Moto-----With all respect, I believe what you say here is just silly. <snip....but to criticise or put-down somebodies thoughts or feelings is not productive in my mind (tho I am doing the same thing, I suppose)


Well, Barry,....your circular thinking seems to make you a bit silly too, it seems. So, we are both in excellent company :lol:

motoged - 7-3-2008 at 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by memo

Yeah, the US could learn from other cultures. The only problem is, I can't think of any specific examples right off hand. Perhaps you can name one or two countries? ...... Help me out here, Moto, I'm running fresh out of examples. .....In the meantime their quickest path to a good life is a one way trip to the United States of America.


Memo,
I think you and I might be preferring the "old Mexico" to the newer one we see.

But I would encourage you to broaden your view of the planet and not see the USA as its epicentre. France has a superior public medical health system to the US, as do many other countries (Canada, Britain, and Cuba to name a few).

I am not too convinced that the political system in the US is that open....dangling chads and all that. Just because we are inundated with tv images of Obama-Clinton arm-wrestling doesn't mean the show is what we get.

The task isn't for me to try to convince you of anything, necessarily....but, rather, is for you to take off the jingoistic blinders and see what else is going on out there.

Ged

memo - 7-3-2008 at 08:15 PM

Ged, Last time I checked Americans were not fleeing across our northern border to Canada, or south to Cuba or east to Britain. Facts seem to suggest the populations of those countries, and most others, migrate here if they have a choice. My father lives in Britain and has been waiting four years for a "free" hip replacement. I'm afraid he will die before he gets it. And that's after paying their astronomical taxes for almost fifty years. Great medical system, Ged. Have you thought about moving to Zimbabwe? Nice strong leader, health care system, and there a "hanging chad" is anyone who didn't vote for Mugabe. Happy Fourth of July.

stanburn - 7-3-2008 at 08:17 PM

Well, the normal disclaimers apply....Your mileage may vary, not double blind tested....etc.

In my personal opinion it is because of the proximity of the United States. Here in Santiago, Colima, even though there are changes it is nothing like what the OP describes. I would tell you what I paid for my 1600 square foot house in the middle of a mexican neighborhood 5 blocks from the beach, but it would make you want to come here.

Love and kisses!

Pescador - 7-3-2008 at 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by motoged[/

But I would encourage you to broaden your view of the planet and not see the USA as its epicentre. France has a superior public medical health system to the US, as do many other countries (Canada, Britain, and Cuba to name a few).

The task isn't for me to try to convince you of anything, necessarily....but, rather, is for you to take off the jingoistic blinders and see what else is going on out there.

Ged


Because I am in the business I have studied the health care delivery systems for years and most assuredly the systems you mention do not even come close to the overall delivery system in the United States. The largest problem is that our perceptions have not changed with the times and we grew up with $5 copays and no deductibles and expect the system to work at that level for everyone. If you want a lithotrope to smash gall stones there are 22 in all of France, 3 in Canada, 1 in Cuba but every little hospital that serves a population over 50,000 people in the US has one. We also have a system where we think it is necessary to sue everyone we can in order to get a free ride to easy street. So we have the best medical care in the entire world, it is just expensive. Due to the Free Enterprise sytem almost all of the medial advances the rest of the world enjoys came about because our system discovered those treatments and cures because of economic reward. Basic care is a whole different issue and when it comes to basic care the forementioned countries do a magnificent job. In a perfect world, (which I would be only too happy to design), we would have that basic care available to everyone at an affordable base but would continue the free market development that has allowed us to be leaders in the world of medicine.

[Edited on 7-4-2008 by Pescador]

motoged - 7-3-2008 at 11:48 PM

Okay,okay....once again I am reminded I know not of what I speak.


I will try to keep more of my myopic opinions to myself, as I am rarely thanked for them.

Ged

Hooker33 - 7-4-2008 at 07:50 AM

Motoged,I'm sorry but on this the 4th of July I can't resist commenting on your condemation of the United States politics and health care.  I have rarely seen any critical comments of Canadian politics on this board, frankly your political situation is none of our business.  I have friends in BC who have come to Washington State for knee replacement because the wonderful socialized medicine in Canada would have them wait for nearly a year for treatment.  The U.S. with all its faults is still hands down the best country in the world, a country where hundreds of thousands attempt to migrate to annually.  And what is the reason for spelling California with a K, is that some kind of put down? Hell, the Blue Jays could not even sweeep the lowly Mariners.:lol: 

Paula - 7-4-2008 at 07:51 AM

Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather:lol:

I met a surgical oncologist in Cuba who evaluates a patient's needs and then crafts the tools he need to operate at home in the evening. A doctor friend watched the surgery and said it was amazing. Everyone in Cuba has equal care. In the US a poor mother of 6 just died on a waiting room floor.

So there are problems everywhere, just different problems.

TMW - 7-4-2008 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather:lol:

I met a surgical oncologist in Cuba who evaluates a patient's needs and then crafts the tools he need to operate at home in the evening. A doctor friend watched the surgery and said it was amazing. Everyone in Cuba has equal care. In the US a poor mother of 6 just died on a waiting room floor.

So there are problems everywhere, just different problems.


I think they shut that LA area hospital down for a number of problems similar to the lady dying on the floor. It had a record dating back many years of problems they wouldn't or couldn't fixed. But I did see in the paper where they may open it up again. Will the problems be fixed, we'll see.

I don't think I would care to have a Dr. make his operating tools at home and then use them on me unless it was an absolute emergency. I don't think that would be legal in the US. I'll stick with my United Healthcare policy and my $20 co-pay.

memo - 7-4-2008 at 08:55 AM

Paula, A mother of six has never died on the waiting room floor in Cuba, or Canada or Mexico? The difference is in the USA we have a free press who love, by the way, to print ugly news. In Cuba they would imprison the journalist who reported the unfriendly story. In Canada they would print the story two years later, when the victim's body finally made it to the front of the line.

memo - 7-4-2008 at 09:02 AM

Hey Paula, Here's one handy solution to irksome reporters:

Seventh Mexican journalist murdered this year
November 23, 2006 7:51 AM
Mexico has become the world'ssecond-most dangerous country for the press (after Iraq) with this week's murder of Roberto Marcos García, the deputy editor of the weekly Testimonio, in the eastern state of Vera Cruz. He was the third journalist to be killed this month in Mexico and the seventh since the start of the year. García was knocked off his motorcycle and shot six times. His daughter said he had recently been the target of threats. (Via Reporters without Borders)

motoged - 7-4-2008 at 10:05 AM

Memo,
I am not condemning the USA....I just don't like some aspects of your politics. I do believe that your and my country are great places to live, and am not suggesting you or anyone move here, to Cuba, or some dictatorship-led podunk place on the planet.

I take the risk of making comments on this forum despite what appears to be a predominance of right-wing commentaries. In my world, "liberalism" is not an insult, but an indication of a position on the political (human) spectrum that suggests that not everyone supports a conservative one.

Sometimes my views are quite conservative, but I appreciate my flexibility of thinking.

I love the Old Mexico....utilize the New Mexico....and think that Baja fish tacos are WAY better than ones I have had anywhere on mainland Mexico (I obviously need to eat at ALL coastal points along the mainland....enjoying the warmth of the culture, trying to avoid dangerous situations (eg. the mayonaise at hot-dog stands).

Happy Fourth of July....I hope you get to see some good fireworks.

Cypress - 7-4-2008 at 10:15 AM

Ever read about someone diving into water that was too shallow and ending up with a broken neck?:?:That's a liberal. A conservative will check and make sure the water is deep enough to dive into. :yes:If you're gonna dive off a bridge, be sure about the depth.:D

vandenberg - 7-4-2008 at 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
A conservative will check and make sure the water is deep enough to dive into.



And then still will jump feet first just to make sure.:biggrin::biggrin:

motoged - 7-4-2008 at 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
A conservative will check and make sure the water is deep enough to dive into. :yes:If you're gonna dive off a bridge, be sure about the depth.:D


Not bad advice.....how deep was the water "hiding" weapons of mass destruction?

This "either-or" type of thinking is rather limited and is part of the problem at times. Thinking outside the box isn't necessarily a subversive or terrorist practice.

Now, to apply this to the purpose of this forum (Baja)....is there factual information as to whether fish tacos are superior to beef or goat tacos .... or is it a matter of personal preference and taste?

Me? I like good fish tacos anytime....but cabeza de vaca (sp?) is a wonderful taco, too.

Paula - 7-4-2008 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather:lol:

I met a surgical oncologist in Cuba who evaluates a patient's needs and then crafts the tools he need to operate at home in the evening. A doctor friend watched the surgery and said it was amazing. Everyone in Cuba has equal care. In the US a poor mother of 6 just died on a waiting room floor.

So there are problems everywhere, just different problems.


I think they shut that LA area hospital down for a number of problems similar to the lady dying on the floor. It had a record dating back many years of problems they wouldn't or couldn't fixed. But I did see in the paper where they may open it up again. Will the problems be fixed, we'll see.

I don't think I would care to have a Dr. make his operating tools at home and then use them on me unless it was an absolute emergency. I don't think that would be legal in the US. I'll stick with my United Healthcare policy and my $20 co-pay.



The death I was referring to was in New York a day or so ago at a hospital with a history of problems that continues to operate. The woman lay on the floor for two hours-- several employees walked by and ignored her. After one poked at her with a foot and she didn't respond, they figured she was dead. Records were altered as to her time of arrival to avoid embarrassment for the employees. The surveillance camera told the true story. So it happens from time to time on both coasts, and maybe in the middle of the country too.
The surgery in Cuba was on a woman suffering from lung cancer. She was better off for the doctor's determination to help her in spite of a lack of equipment in a large central hospital in Havana.
Again, there are problems in all places, just different problems. I wish we were as willing to recognize our own as we are those of others.
Now I'm going to go take care of my stiff neck:biggrin:

Barry A. - 7-4-2008 at 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather:lol:



Paula------I try only to comment when someone makes what I think is a non-Baja political comment outside the "OFF TOPIC" arena that I don't agree with. If my comments offend you please understand that is not my intention. I simply am uncomfortable letting statements that I think are off-the-wall stand without some sort of rebuttal, less others think that we all agree with what is said.

If this is not proper, I hope that the monitors will let me know.

Barry A.

Cypress - 7-4-2008 at 12:34 PM

Getting carved up on a kitchen table isn't my idea of quality medical treatment.:O

Paula - 7-4-2008 at 01:36 PM

Barry

I let so many political posts and gratuitous slams against people who don't fit the prevalent conservative thinking here pass by without responding. And it isn't so much your comments that offend me as the fact that you belittle the posters you don't agree with. Nevertheless, I was rude, and it wasn't even me that you called silly (this time:biggrin:)

Cypress

The lady was not carved up on a kitchen table, she was operated on in hospital where doctors perform near miracles with no supplies thanks to the inadequacies of their government. I do not mean to imply that Cuban healthcare is better than ours. But the doctors are as well trained as US doctors. They are paid the government wage, so most of them drive cabs on their days off to earn American $$ so that they can afford to continue to be doctors. Many people would just drive the cab and forget the medical career, but these are dedicated people. By pointing to the recent death in the NY hospital I did not say that our system is inadequate, but one could see that we could use a little more humanity here and there in our society.
I wish you would read more carefully before you respond. The point of both of my posts was that nobody, and no country is perfect. No one gains by a defensive stance in which one side proclaims itself to be above criticism. I think this is one of our founding principles. Happy Fourth of July.

Bajafun777 - 7-4-2008 at 02:02 PM

Well, I get tired of hearing how our founding fathers intended our Constitution to be read and understood. I am part conservative and part liberal but I do not run from a fight, agree just to get along, hope that bad people and bad things will just stop, and never ever depend on the winos, dinos, and dingbats to tell me what the Democratic Party is and what it should be. You can be Democratic and believe in family, support your country, willing to die for you believe or to save those you love, and understand there is nothing wrong with a "hand-up" but not a continual "handout." I got a lot of friends and relatives that are Republicans and very very conservative, we tease at each other constantly but remain friends over politics, as we all know where our hearts and believes are. All countries have their problems and I like visiting different countries but nowhere repeat nowhere is there a better country than the USA. We therefore, must all work harder in these trying times of uncertain future events to keep it that way. Take care Nomads and Happy Fourth of July, God Bless American and may we make the world a better place despite our politicans (here lies our real problems and divisions). Later----bajafun777

Cypress - 7-4-2008 at 02:09 PM

Paula, Must have missed something while reading your post:?:But, to the best of my knowledge, people are not flocking to Cuba for medical treatment or anything else.:biggrin:Seems to me that they're risking their lives attempting to reach the USA.:?:

BajaGringo - 7-4-2008 at 02:09 PM

Through my life I have made the swing from "Liberal" to "Conservative" and now have ended up somewhere in the middle. I have come to the conclusion that neither side has all the answers and the reality is that only the political hacks in Washington are the true winners in the war they create between the two sides. A "war" where they prefer to isolate us to the two extremes where rhetoric is much more valuable than substance and both parties are guilty of putting politics above issues. Most issues are neither "liberal" or "conservative" but "human" issues requiring thoughtful and honest debate, responsible and long term planning and a willingness to take some medicine which may or may not be pleasant or sweet tasting in the short term. As they are more interested in getting re-elected, no politician wants to be credited with handing out any foul tasting medicine. They just want to be loved and re-elected.

As far as health care, I have abandoned my US based HMO and only see doctors here in Mexico for the last four years since an HMO "killed" my fourteen year old daughter. Medical care is great in the US for extreme situations and urgent care. My 14 year old daughter went into cardiac arrest under "managed" care when she didn't meet the "criteria" for an EKG by HMO standards when suffering from chest pain and shortness of breath. The HMO doctor listened to her heart and said she was only suffering from minor anxiety. We asked for an EKG but were told that wasn't "needed" or covered and sent her home with Tylenol.

An EKG would have picked up the Long QT syndrome causing her pain and shortness of breath.

The HMO went on to pay several hundred thousand dollars over the next few weeks when she was flown hours later to LA Children's hospital in Los Angeles and the ICU care she received for those few weeks was world class and top notch with a doctor and nurse assigned to care for only her, with all the latest technology around to tell us what was happening with her and explain that she was now brain dead.

I went to the hospital here in Rosarito last year with the same symptoms and was given an EKG without even requesting it. After several hours I was sent home with some heart medication and new blood pressure medication. The total cost of the visit, care, EKG and medicine was less than $70 USD.

If my daughter could have just had some common sense care that could override HMO managed care guidelines she would still be with us today.

The US has the best medical technology available today. It does not have the best day to day managed care as HMO's put profits above lives. It is a calculated algorithm and since they passed legislation protecting the HMO's from lawsuits they have "tweaked" that algorithm to take bigger risks and offer less standard health care. Doctors are rewarded with bonuses for keeping managed care costs down by denying such expenses such as EKG's. Health care dollars need to be managed to give the best care possible while keeping the costs affordable and it is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue. It is a human issue and I am tired of the politicians playing political football with it.


OK, I am done. rant over.

Have a happy fourth all you Nomads, in and out of Mexico...

fulano - 7-4-2008 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Everyone in Cuba has equal care. ..The surgery in Cuba was on a woman suffering from lung cancer. She was better off for the doctor's determination to help her in spite of a lack of equipment in a large central hospital in Havana.


Quote:
Originally posted by motoged
France has a superior public medical health system to the US, as do many other countries (Canada, Britain, and Cuba to name a few).


You and motoged should meet offline and get your stories about Cuban health care syncronized.

For the record, Cuba has a dismal healthcare system. They have one modern hospital in Havana for tourists and dignitaries to get foreign currency. The natives can't get into it. The rest of the Cubans can't even get aspirin. Doctors who have escaped Cuban on rafts report that Cuba's infant mortality rate is so low because if they even detect a problem with a fetus, they force the woman to have an abortion, whereas in the US we will try anything to save the baby.

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

sylens - 7-4-2008 at 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Through my life I have made the swing from "Liberal" to "Conservative" and now have ended up somewhere in the middle. I have come to the conclusion that neither side has all the answers and the reality is that only the political hacks in Washington are the true winners in the war they create between the two sides. A "war" where they prefer to isolate us to the two extremes where rhetoric is much more valuable than substance and both parties are guilty of putting politics above issues. Most issues are neither "liberal" or "conservative" but "human" issues requiring thoughtful and honest debate, responsible and long term planning and a willingness to take some medicine which may or may not be pleasant or sweet tasting in the short term. As they are more interested in getting re-elected, no politician wants to be credited with handing out any foul tasting medicine. They just want to be loved and re-elected.

As far as health care, I have abandoned my US based HMO and only see doctors here in Mexico for the last four years since an HMO "killed" my fourteen year old daughter. Medical care is great in the US for extreme situations and urgent care. My 14 year old daughter went into cardiac arrest under "managed" care when she didn't meet the "criteria" for an EKG by HMO standards when suffering from chest pain and shortness of breath. The HMO doctor listened to her heart and said she was only suffering from minor anxiety. We asked for an EKG but were told that wasn't "needed" or covered and sent her home with Tylenol.

An EKG would have picked up the Long QT syndrome causing her pain and shortness of breath.

The HMO went on to pay several hundred thousand dollars over the next few weeks when she was flown hours later to LA Children's hospital in Los Angeles and the ICU care she received for those few weeks was world class and top notch with a doctor and nurse assigned to care for only her, with all the latest technology around to tell us what was happening with her and explain that she was now brain dead.

I went to the hospital here in Rosarito last year with the same symptoms and was given an EKG without even requesting it. After several hours I was sent home with some heart medication and new blood pressure medication. The total cost of the visit, care, EKG and medicine was less than $70 USD.

If my daughter could have just had some common sense care that could override HMO managed care guidelines she would still be with us today.

The US has the best medical technology available today. It does not have the best day to day managed care as HMO's put profits above lives. It is a calculated algorithm and since they passed legislation protecting the HMO's from lawsuits they have "tweaked" that algorithm to take bigger risks and offer less standard health care. Doctors are rewarded with bonuses for keeping managed care costs down by denying such expenses such as EKG's. Health care dollars need to be managed to give the best care possible while keeping the costs affordable and it is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue. It is a human issue and I am tired of the politicians playing political football with it.


OK, I am done. rant over.

Have a happy fourth all you Nomads, in and out of Mexico...


i am so sorry to hear of your experience. i am hopeful that we will be seeing more outrage about incidents such as the one you described. we need to display outrage and a patriotic insistence that the usa is and must be better than that when it comes to the health care available to its residents. jmho as a proudly liberal ex-pat.

motoged - 7-4-2008 at 07:02 PM

Bajagringo,
I am so sorry to hear of your family experience.

You and a few others have more eloquently elaborated on some of my original comments on this issue, and I appreciate your comments.

This thread started as a comment on a 'Real Mexico" concept and I threw out some economical-political opinions (as I am want to do from time-to-time).

It is NOT about people "rushing" to different countries....a bit of a simplistic rebuttal.

I have lived in the USA as a child (California....without a "K") and have great memories of that. I have traveled throughout all of the US west of the Mississippi (except for Alaska....as BC has it all and is my front yard). I do not see Canada as a socialist country, and others who have any true sense of it know that it is not.

The bipolar political spectrum sets up this "us vs them" scenario which is so limiting....


Barry A. ....what we have in common are at least two things: we love the Baja, and we make comments to some posts which pique our sensibilities and we can't help but respond.


I will (jokingly) suggest a survey:

Which are Best???:

A) Fish tacos.... for the liberals (as fish are wishy-washy and constantly giving into the tide, and can't take a stand as they have no feet)

B) Beef tacos ....for the conservatives....(full of bull and headstrong preferring to charge the red cape rather than wonder or determine if it is truly a threat)


Politics and religion: two topics to usually avoid in many conversations.

Paula - 7-4-2008 at 07:40 PM

BajaGringo, I too am saddened by your story. One thing I think we'll all agree on is that what happened to your daughter shouldn't have happened anywhere, to anyone. Ever.

Barry A. - 7-5-2008 at 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Barry

I let so many political posts and gratuitous slams against people who don't fit the prevalent conservative thinking here pass by without responding. And it isn't so much your comments that offend me as the fact that you belittle the posters you don't agree with. Nevertheless, I was rude, and it wasn't even me that you called silly (this time:biggrin:)



Paula-------I see your point. The word "belittle" that you apply to me is startling-----I need to think about that one. I guess I need to check out the water depth more before I jump in.

To those who I may have insulted I apologize------but I don't apologize for my Conservative views-------they are just part of who I am. I DO have some Liberal friends who tolerate me, but some have drifted away in inexplicable anger------I have a hard time understanding that------Liberals have never made me "angry", they just frustrate me and leave me incredulous.

Why are so many Liberals so "angry"? :?: (this has now drifted into the OFF-TOPIC category, I suppose)

I will try to be more careful in the future. Thanks Paula, and Moto, etc.

Cheers, Barry

I am so sorry

guadalupe - 7-5-2008 at 09:43 AM

BG - I too am very saddened by your story and your loss. My sister just retired last year after working for 28 years as a pediatric surgeon and has been saying the very same things for a long time. She is looking to relocate to southern Mexico to a small community where she can (in her words) go back to being a doctor, something she felt she was not allowed to do in her last several years working under the HMO system of medicine.

Your little girl is watching down on you. You will see her again one day.

BajaGringo - 7-5-2008 at 11:49 AM

Thanks for the kind thoughts and to those of you who sent me some very nice messages via U2U. I wasn't searching for sympathy but your thoughts and gestures mean a lot. It is a process and I am still getting through it.

Hopefully one day we can find the right mixture of tort reform and corporate philosophy to reach a more balanced and fair health care solution. Health care is a business but to compare it to General Motors or Sony is ludicrous.
We can live without a new car or a big screen TV. Health care is something we all need eventually in our lives and to treat is solely as a profit machine is to lose a sense of our humanity as a society that claims to be the greatest nation on earth. A great nation is one that not only provides opportunities for the strongest, but also cares for the weakest.

I don't hear any real answers or long term solutions today - just more rhetoric. Both sides of the aisle in Washington are sold out to the board rooms of the health care industry today. We need some new faces and fresh voices.

Spending more time and money at home instead of nation building abroad would go a long way IMHO.

But what do I know? I am just a bitter old man who lost his daughter to the current system in place...

gpm414 - 7-5-2008 at 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Thanks for the kind thoughts and to those of you who sent me some very nice messages via U2U. I wasn't searching for sympathy but your thoughts and gestures mean a lot. It is a process and I am still getting through it.

Hopefully one day we can find the right mixture of tort reform and corporate philosophy to reach a more balanced and fair health care solution. Health care is a business but to compare it to General Motors or Sony is ludicrous.
We can live without a new car or a big screen TV. Health care is something we all need eventually in our lives and to treat is solely as a profit machine is to lose a sense of our humanity as a society that claims to be the greatest nation on earth. A great nation is one that not only provides opportunities for the strongest, but also cares for the weakest.

I don't hear any real answers or long term solutions today - just more rhetoric. Both sides of the aisle in Washington are sold out to the board rooms of the health care industry today. We need some new faces and fresh voices.

Spending more time and money at home instead of nation building abroad would go a long way IMHO.

But what do I know? I am just a bitter old man who lost his daughter to the current system in place...


I totally agree with what you have expressed so well. Will we ever put the well beiing of our citizens before money, big business and politics?

toneart - 7-5-2008 at 12:57 PM

I have read in sympathy, BajaGringo's plight. I agree with him that our healthcare system in the United States is broken.

Regarding Barry A, I have not experienced his posts as "belittling" liberals. Even though we are usually diametrically opposed politically, I find him one of those on The Right who can be objective in his debates, and he is a gentleman. (He is still hopeless though! :lol::lol::lol:)

Someone asked, "why are Liberals so angry?" My answer is, Look how our country is being run and by whom. There is plenty to be angry about. We, Liberals and duped Conservatives alike, are losing our country.

The thing that I ask to be considered: Look not at the philosophies. There are good and bad ideas on both sides. But observe the implementation of of those philosophies. They are killing our country and they are killing us!:(

Barry A. - 7-5-2008 at 01:02 PM

Quote:


Will we ever put the well beiing of our citizens before money, big business and politics?


(edit----I wrote and posted this before I saw 'TONEART's post--------thank you, Tony---------wise thoughts, for sure.
barry)

In my opinion, the well-being our of citizens IS "money, business (all sizes), and politics"--------without which we would have very little of what we have/enjoy today.

There are huge problems with health care, I agree, but we still have the best "system" in the world, IMHO.

I have been with Blue Cross/Blue Shield for 45 years with absolutely NO problems ever-------and now that I am old enough for Medicare parts A & B too, I hardly pay for anything (which is embarrassing), and always go to doctors of my choice-------what's not to love?? But, (and this is a huge "but"), I ONLY go to doctors when I absolutely have to.

I don't like the concept of HMO's----never have------and NEVER been with one. I just want to stay with what has always worked for me, and at a reasonable cost, and I do NOT want to support others frivolous trips to the doc and emergency rooms.

I support a "safety net" concept, but I want it truly an emergency only program------insurance works for me. I do NOT believe that "health care" is a "right". It is hard for me to have empathy for folks getting free health care when they have no insurance, and still drive nice cars and have big screen TV's-----I was just not brought up that way, and we had very few of the "things" that todays folks seem to expect, and demand, BECAUSE WE COULD NOT AFFORD THEM (but we DID always have "insurance")------folks without insurance need to re-evaluate their priorities, IMHO.

(staying together as "families" helps, too)

See ------I have the problem solved. :lol:

Barry

[Edited on 7-5-2008 by Barry A.]

Cypress - 7-5-2008 at 01:18 PM

BajaGringo, I have a daughter, thank God we have'nt been through the agony that you have.:(It's a parents worst nightmare.:(In total agreement with your opinion of "foreign aid".:)We need to take care of our own, first and foremost!:)

BajaGringo - 7-5-2008 at 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
BajaGringo, I have a daughter, thank God we have'nt been through the agony that you have.:(It's a parents worst nightmare


I pray you never live to find out either. It is something that never goes away. Thank God for good friends who have helped along the way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
(In total agreement with your opinion of "foreign aid".:)We need to take care of our own, first and foremost!:)


It is a funny thing how much of that "foreign aid" ends up in the pockets of a few "domestic" large campaign donors. But that's another issue and probably belongs in another thread...

toneart - 7-5-2008 at 02:10 PM

Barry A and I are both old dogs, and everybody knows you can't teach old dogs new tricks. Well............I'm going to try:
Barry.......sit! Roll over! Oh, never mind.:(:lol:

Barry A. - 7-5-2008 at 02:11 PM

Ouch, I hit my head!!! Thanks a lot, Tony. :lol:

Barry

Pescador - 7-5-2008 at 07:15 PM

Barry, I want you to know I really appreciate your knowledge and insight. The business of health care has had serious problems with the HMO concept and it is rapidly dwindling and almost impossible to get people in the marketplace to consider today. But the biggest rift on both sides of the liberal/conservative split is reality. I personally think that the United States could easily afford to provide basic care to all Citizens (yeah, I mean legal) but beyond that the individual has to take some responsibility. When you get sick you want the best health care in the world but it is an individuals responsibility to pay for that freedom. The personwho died in New York was in fact attending a state run facility for people who can not afford private treatment, and if everyone is angry and irate about the treatment she received, then think about what kind of treatment typically occurs in State funded facilities. This is really not much different that what I experienced on the Indian Reservations with public health when I first graduated from College.
We live in Mexico but when my wife started having some problems with high blood pressure and elevated heartbeat, we made a beeline out of there to get back to the good ol' US of A to get the best medical care available. Anybody that would do anything different has not ever had anything indepth done at the hospital at Santa Rosalia. Well, it turns out there is no problem with blood pressure and elevated pulse, but they did discover lung cancer on a CT Scan. In the last two weeks we have had CT scans, PET Scans, MRI's, blood tests, and a host of other things too numerous to mention. Following this will be intensive chemo and radiation. This all cost a lot of money but I would pay 10 times that amount to have the best care available in the world.
Now, if I was homeless or broke we could have gone to the emergency room where it is illegal for them to turn you away, and probably could have found some solution to care which would happen just like it did to my poor broke neighbor who has received very good care for something very similar. Come to think of it, he did not have to worry about deductible and co-pays and is now receiving chemo and radiation. But you see, it is because I was able to pay my part that new development and research can take place and maybe a cure can be found for this insidious disease, whereas the public health approach will do well just to keep its head above water with poor care and unmotivated personell.
So, occasionaly I griped about the premium increases but right now that insurance premium looks like the best bargain in the world.

Barry A. - 7-6-2008 at 05:07 PM

Thanks Pescador, and you make some excellent points.

Your point about the R&;D by our Pharmas being financed by their profits is something that has always worried me------if we go National Health Care I am afraid that this revenue will dry up, and thus the R&;D will slow down-----not good!!! You gotta have profits for R&;D to occur------incentives, and all that, it seems to me. No money, no new cures.

But I will admit that the present system is not ideal----not sure what IS ideal, tho. But I think it is the "best" in the world probably, taking everything into consideration.

We are off to play in Lake Tahoe for a week, starting tomorrow.

Barry

edit: I have no idea why "d's" produce those smiley faces----that was not done by me. :?:

[Edited on 7-7-2008 by Barry A.]

Cypress - 7-6-2008 at 08:16 PM

Pescador,Our prayers are with you and your wife.