BajaNomad - Can anyone explain the wait?

Can anyone explain the wait?

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 10:16 AM

With tourism down as a whole to Baja - can anyone explain why the wait at the linea seems longer than ever?

Quien Sabe ?

MrBillM - 7-11-2008 at 11:28 AM

Having seen my usual Thursday 2 p.m. crossing vary each time from Zero wait to an Hour plus, I've asked the Badge guys time and again if they had any idea and I've never gotten any useful info. The standard answer seems to be the Gas Guzzling Border Jumpers, but who knows ? The vast majority of the plates seem to be Mexican, but I read from someone else that Mexicans are driving across with a full tank to sell it. That "seems" unlikely, but it could be.

The bottom line is that there is no way to forecast the wait other than perhaps crossing in the early a.m. night.

lizard lips - 7-11-2008 at 11:38 AM

There is a lot of traffic at that time also from parents picking up their children from schools in San Diego but not in the summer.

I have noticed that the sentri lanes are a lot longer than they use to be also. It use to be that the best time to cross using the sentri was about 9:30 am but now it doesn't matter.

vgabndo - 7-11-2008 at 12:04 PM

Isn't the crossing at Tijuana the busiest international border crossing on the planet? It seems somehow logical that there would be a waiting line.

CaboRon - 7-11-2008 at 03:56 PM

Tradition ?

David K - 7-11-2008 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lizard lips
There is a lot of traffic at that time also from parents picking up their children from schools in San Diego but not in the summer.

I have noticed that the sentri lanes are a lot longer than they use to be also. It use to be that the best time to cross using the sentri was about 9:30 am but now it doesn't matter.

Great... schools in CA are financed from property taxes, and people who pay no US property tax are bringing their kids here??? Can you imaging if we brought our kids to TJ for free schooling and also demanded that they be taught in English, what the Mexicans would say!!!??? :lol:

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

and they have the nerve to limit fuel sales to gringos because we're taking advantage of subsidized fuel? how about 20 million being subsidized by U.S. taxpayers??? i guess it's human nature to take what you can get. maybe if they install a fence like we voted for, and started kicking out those who work under the table or for minimum wage, since they drain more than they pay in taxes we'll have a chance at a future the way we know it now.

when in history has there ever been such a drain on a society and it ended pretty? mexico should be bending over to receive us gringos!!!

ahh, WTF or WTF!

David K - 7-11-2008 at 04:48 PM

Yah, there is no way to come out of this with so much PC crappola... The ACLU seems totally ready to destroy America!

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2008 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yah, there is no way to come out of this with so much PC crappola... The ACLU seems totally ready to destroy America!

what does the ACLU have to do with border waits or immigration? seems to me that capitalism causes illegal immigration, and border waits are the fault of understaffing at Homeland Security. you would be better off ranting against business practices causing immigration and homeland security causing border waits, rather than ranting at ACLU

with rabid anti-imigrant bias and racism, it is nice to think that maybe one group is thinking about human and constitutional rights... one only hopes.

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yah, there is no way to come out of this with so much PC crappola... The ACLU seems totally ready to destroy America!

i think DK was being too subtle for your frail mind. maybe you should just spend your golden years living off the fat of the land whilst the rest of us pay your way, too! after all, it is america where the streets are paved with gold right?

let's let everyone in and raise taxes 50% so we can all enjoy the good life, aye? the rich get richer, the poor gets richer and the middle disappears. :?:

edit:p.s. my take on the Another Crazy Liberal, Uneducated.....ah, who cares? hopefully you live to see the day when your open border mentality swallows you up and craps you out!!!

[Edited on 7-12-2008 by woody in ob]

k-rico - 7-11-2008 at 05:33 PM

wow!

I'm just a newbie so I don't know nothing but some of these messages are pretty wild.

Woody, this is about people crossing the border legally and looking an American official straight in the eyes, while handing over the proper identification. The fence you're talking about and the illegal immigration issue that has you all worked up have nothing to do with the border congestion.

And I don't get the idea that Mexican kids living in Mexico are going to US public schools. Does that happen? If so the folks running the US school admissions department aren't too bright. Thought you had to live in the school district to attend its schools.

Anyway perhaps the reason the border is getting more and more crowded is because there are more and more people living on both sides of it. And because it is summer and the kids are out of school, there's more non-rush hour traffic. More people, the same number of lanes.

But like I said, I don't know nothing, the border is probably crowded because of the ACLU and all the Mexicans entering illegally by going through a port of entry staffed by American officals.

David K - 7-11-2008 at 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yah, there is no way to come out of this with so much PC crappola... The ACLU seems totally ready to destroy America!

mtgoat666, I was replying to my friend Woody... if you read his post above mine, then you will see what I am talking about, if you need to know.

IF I ever start a thread (new topic) with a non-Baja or political slant, please hit the report button to the moderator for a violation. If you read a political thought from me, it will be in response to or to give equal time to an already posted liberal statement made. You libs are into openess, freedom of expression, and all that, aren't you? Then you should be happy to have both sides posted for all to consider and make an intelligent decision about ... right?

Once a thread gets going, various topic changes and replies between the Nomads can happen... Nothing racist was implied either... Mexico is a country, and I use the word 'Mexicans' to mean the citizens of the Republic of Mexico, no matter what their color or ethnic make up is.

Now, go to some other threads and tell me how George Bush or the war in Iraq has anything to do with the topics there! You don't complaing about them, do you? :?:

Have a nice day :cool:

[Edited on 7-12-2008 by David K]

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 05:43 PM

you're right. there is alot of overlap in this thread....sorry. it's friday and after a long work week i get kinda loopy thinking how much of my taxes go to finance an existence for a citizen of another country who has no intention of assimilating (a broad generalization, i know!).

"And I don't get the idea that Mexican kids living in Mexico are going to US public schools. Does that happen? If so the folks running the US school admissions department aren't too bright. Thought you had to live in the school district to attend its schools."

i guess the mexicans are too dumb to use the address of their cousin's baby momma so the school district will have can collect federal funds for "no child left behind". trust me, go stand outside of any school along the border and count the mexican license plates dropping kids off near the school.

lizard lips - 7-11-2008 at 05:53 PM

My son went to school in San Diego close to Imperial Beach (we were living there at the time) and I would say that half of the kids were from TJ. I would think that was about 400 that were being educated there as well as having free lunch's in that they provided something to show that the parents were not working and on some sort of Govt. program. This is true! The school was only 5 miles from the border right off the 5 freeway.

Every time I would pick up my son from school I would see a lot of Mexican plated vehicles. Apparently these people use some family members address to use when they enroll their kids. 90% of these kids could not speak English so they were in a "special class" with a Spanish speaking teacher. I complained to the school system no less than 20 times during the three years he attended this elementary school and I was told that there was no way to discredit the fact that they were not living in the US due to the address they provided when the kids enrolled. Just how much money is spent year after year for providing an education for Mexican nationals that live in Mexico and cross their kids every day?

I forgot to add that this not only happens in TJ but every where along the border. My wife's cousins in Nogales send there kids to school in Arizona and must go back and forth every day.

[Edited on 01/10/2007 by lizard lips]

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 06:00 PM

Of all the things to get wrapped up in - worrying about your property taxes going into kids trying to get a decent education?

Damn that is pretty selfish. Those kids - how ever many they are did not choose to be born in Mexico to a substandard school system. Did you get the choice to be born in America?

Have you ever wondered or even looked into what part our government plays in keeping Mexico as it is?

I regret that I asked this question - it turned into something fea.

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex
Of all the things to get wrapped up in - worrying about your property taxes going into kids trying to get a decent education?

Damn that is pretty selfish. Those kids - how ever many they are did not choose to be born in Mexico to a substandard school system. Did you get the choice to be born in America?

Have you ever wondered or even looked into what part our government plays in keeping Mexico as it is?

I regret that I asked this question - it turned into something fea.

it is ugly when you consider that people with your point of view don't give away all of their belongings and live the life of a monk, all the while going to work everyday so you can hand out your hard earned money to "la raza". how can you look yourself in the mirror?

lizard lips - 7-11-2008 at 06:15 PM

Alex,

I am not getting wrapped up in this topic. It is illegal for kids to use the school system in the US if they don't live in the US. Plain and simple.

To be honest with you I am concerned about MY SON getting a decent education since he is a US citizen and we were not breaking the law. 38 kids to a class room? How can a teacher spend enough time with one student who is having a problem when they have 37 others to educate. If it wasn't for al of the illegals using the US schools how much money could your local school system save and even benefit the teachers who are grossly under paid. That is not being selfish is it? Must they also be fed as well. It appears that they have enough money to buy gas and have a car that transports them here.

I was not asked to be born in the US but I am glad that I was -VERY GLAD- but I don't have to pay for the education for every illegal citizen that is breaking the law. Please be legal to live, work, and be educated in my country. Plain and simple.

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2008 at 06:15 PM

Quote:

it's pure chance as to whether a soul is born north or south of the border. the border is a political line, and not a cultural line. i am all for mexicans trying to game the system and partake of services in US,... given that gringos do the same and try to take advantage of the system in mexico. many gringos vacation in mexico to take advanatage of lower prices/cheap labor. gringos consume massive amounts of cheap products made by low-paid workers in maquilladoras. heck, half the people on this board own or lease property in mexico in part because they can't afford similar property in US. these expats cause mexican real estate to be unaffordable for mexicans. so if you gringos are gaming the system in mexico, i am all for mexicans gaming the system here.
most of all, people in TJ are my neighbors as they live only tens of miles away, and i think mexican kids in TJ have as much right to an education as some snot nose gringo kid from kearny mesa -- i really don't mind if my property taxes go to improving the lives of a few mexican kids who are neighbors.
why do you conservatives so hate it when a few mexican families get some schooling in the US? are you really that selfish to not recognize that gringo wealth in san diego is in part due to cheap labor and substandard conditions just across the border.
DK, you are in the landscapinng biz, and i bet $100 you incur economic benefit from illegal labor in your industry if not on each of your projects.

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 06:16 PM

Explain how living like a monk or me looking at a mirror has anything to do with this

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lizard lips
Alex,

I am not getting wrapped up in this topic. It is illegal for kids to use the school system in the US if they don't live in the US. Plain and simple.

To be honest with you I am concerned about MY SON getting a decent education since he is a US citizen and we were not breaking the law. 38 kids to a class room? How can a teacher spend enough time with one student who is having a problem when they have 37 others to educate. If it wasn't for al of the illegals using the US schools how much money could your local school system save and even benefit the teachers who are grossly under paid. That is not being selfish is it? Must they also be fed as well. It appears that they have enough money to buy gas and have a car that transports them here.

I was not asked to be born in the US but I am glad that I was -VERY GLAD- but I don't have to pay for the education for every illegal citizen that is breaking the law. Please be legal to live, work, and be educated in my country. Plain and simple.

You have valid points. You should rightfully worry about your son. Your comments were not the ones I regarded as selfish.
Teachers are underpaid and 37 to a classroom is unacceptable.

You have to ask if our country has a priorities straight then. A land were the rich are raping their own people - shaking hands with the enemy. Or billions of our tax dollars going into a war machine that advertises for its manpower en espanol, cabrones.

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 06:25 PM

Alex

i don't mean to be personal, specifically, but if you wanna give away every benefit you/i have as a gringo to anyone who can grab a hold, i don't think i can explain it so you'll get my point.

how many silver spoons ya got?

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 06:28 PM

who says you are being forced to give away any of your benefits

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 06:32 PM

i have no response. probably a good thing, too! :no:

good night!

lizard lips - 7-11-2008 at 06:33 PM

Alex, your getting into a subject that is a little away from this particular one but I respect what you said in your posts. I don't see a end to any of it but we must have common ground here. How are we going to do this? I wish I knew. I believe the US Govt. doesn't have a clue what takes place along the border and they place all of the problems under the rug and try and forget about it. We could go on and on with the border and immigration but I live by the letter of the law here in Mexico as well as the US and by doing this I have never had a problem.

Packoderm - 7-11-2008 at 07:52 PM

It would seem logical that the more people who sneak across the border via remote desert routes would result in fewer people trying to cross at official border entries. I'd say that a way to speed up the border crossing times would be to require that every passport holder to receive a sub-dermal microchip and to scan each person crossing the border much like a grocery item. Each border agent should get two lower ranked helpers who would scan the driver and passenger's arms as they are held out each car window. With such a system, each passenger inspection should take seconds thus decreasing the time spent per vehicle. These scanners would be also used to take weekly attendance in the students' home room classes ensuring proper residency and immigration status of all students. The chip could also be used as a debit device for paying the 20 or so dollars going from the U.S. to Mexico.

As far as the schools enforcing any immigration laws - forget it. It is fact that California public school staff is prohibited from forwarding any known information regarding immigration transgressions by the students or their families. Counter to this is that school staff is required to forward any information of evidence that a student may have a deadbeat father. The real truth, and forgive me for taking a George Carlin tone, is that those in charge - those really in charge - do not want any meaningful action against illegal immigration due to exploitation opportunities. It would be foolhardy to expect anything more than token action by any public officials.

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
The real truth, and forgive me for taking a George Carlin tone, is that those in charge - those really in charge - do not want any meaningful action against illegal immigration due to exploitation opportunities. It would be foolhardy to expect anything more than token action by any public officials.

thank you

Speaking of Illegals

MrBillM - 7-11-2008 at 09:24 PM

The Hot News still being thrashed about up here in San Bernardino County is the fact that San Francisco and its Mayor Gavin Nutcase have been shipping us some of their "Known" illegal alien minors (in violation of Federal Law) to avoid having them deported. Once here, they have disappeared.

Goofy Gavin has said that the practice is now discontinued (because they got caught) and he'll go back to having a Gay time and the important business of performing as many Homosexual weddings as possible before November.

Although County officials have demanded the Feds take action and have said they intend to press a case against Nutjob, don't expect anything to happen. As already said, the officials just don't care.

Alex - 7-11-2008 at 09:35 PM

http://tijuanatales.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/deported-in-tij...

Is San Bernadino the next best thing to Tijuas?

"Most of them look bewildered and scared. They group together near the border fence and go through the contents of the bag — so far, what I’ve seen are shoelaces, belts and bottled water — then they eventually wander off into the wild that is Tijuana.

A few of the deportees ask passersby for money so they can call their families on the nearby public phones. Others likely have no way of contacting their family members. I can’t even imagine being in that situation. No wonder Tijuana has so many problems. The deportees have no food, no shelter –they have nothing but the clothes on their backs. If I were in that situation, I’d do whatever it took to get food and shelter. Steeling and panhandling comes to mind.

There has simply got to be a better way."

Hmm dropped off with a paper bag

woody with a view - 7-11-2008 at 09:42 PM

what's yer solution? :?:

wait let me get comfortable.......okay, i'm ready now!

805gregg - 7-13-2008 at 06:03 AM

Just give them all ss# and tax them.

awfulart - 7-13-2008 at 07:09 AM

Goat Quote: with rabid anti-imigrant bias and racism, it is nice to think that maybe one group is thinking about human and constitutional rights... one only hopes. (end quote)

Here we go again, name calling and calling illegals immigrants. If they have arrived legally, no problem, but illegal is illegal and the open border philosophy will lead to the destruction of this country. When a high percentage of students cannot speak English what does that tell you.

Barry A. - 7-13-2008 at 09:04 AM

------hopefully most of us can admit that it is a complicated subject, and we are mainly only talking about schools and border crossing times in this particular thread-------the actual problem is, of course, much larger.

As I have said many times on this board, the solution is "RULE OF LAW" folks----------enforce the law-------on both sides of the border------------THAT is the solution, IMO, and probably the ONLY solution.

The result almost always of NOT enforcing the law is chaos!!!!

Barry

bajalou - 7-13-2008 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
------hopefully most of us can admit that it is a complicated subject, and we are mainly only talking about schools and border crossing times in this particular thread-------the actual problem is, of course, much larger.

As I have said many times on this board, the solution is "RULE OF LAW" folks----------enforce the law-------on both sides of the border------------THAT is the solution, IMO, and probably the ONLY solution.

The result almost always of NOT enforcing the law is chaos!!!!

Barry

Would that include attaching the bank accounts and possibly jailing the employers that didn't pay the SS payments and deduct and transmit income taxes?

Barry A. - 7-13-2008 at 09:46 AM

Lou--------Yes!!!!! Absolutely!!!!!!

Barry

bajalou - 7-13-2008 at 10:04 AM

Just about like drugs, eliminate the demand - drug users/employers and there is no need for drug smugglers/illegal workers.

awfulart - 7-13-2008 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
------hopefully most of us can admit that it is a complicated subject, and we are mainly only talking about schools and border crossing times in this particular thread-------the actual problem is, of course, much larger.

As I have said many times on this board, the solution is "RULE OF LAW" folks----------enforce the law-------on both sides of the border------------THAT is the solution, IMO, and probably the ONLY solution.

Right on! Look at how chaotic Mexico is legally.. No such thing as the "Rule of Law"

The result almost always of NOT enforcing the law is chaos!!!!

Barry

Would that include attaching the bank accounts and possibly jailing the employers that didn't pay the SS payments and deduct and transmit income taxes?

awfulart - 7-13-2008 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

fdt - 7-13-2008 at 10:38 AM

I must jump in here. Everytime mexicans are the talk to some or most here, it's something bad and I have to forgive you because you just talk generalizing. I wont call you all ignorant but the fact is that you ignore many things. I attended college in San Diego and along with me several, many other Tijuana residents and it was Southwestern College. What you people that are generalizing ignore is that we paid foreign student tuition, yes we paid to attend and it was a lot of money, we never got it free or took advantage of "your system" and I'm very proud of it. Later I went on to travel school and also paid tuition, so what if I had mexican plates, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? As for mexicans going across every day to take advantage of education there are some but they get caught eventualy by CBP if not by the school. Many people that live in border towns and look mexican and talk spanish and drive cars with mexican plates are US citizens, did you ever think about that? And don't get me started on beeing born in the US having taken advantage of "Your System" I paid when my kids were born. As for the levels of education, talking k-12, I would never allow my children to attend school in the South Bay area of San Diego, not if they have an opportunity to attend better schools in Tijuana, ones with much higher academic levels, are taught values and all wear uniforms.
And is Tijuana safe, yes, very safe, I have my wife and kids here

Barry A. - 7-13-2008 at 10:48 AM

Some VERY GOOD POINTS, Ferna. Thank God you are on this board to keep us closer to reality, and give us the "rest of the story".

Barry

lizard lips - 7-13-2008 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
I must jump in here. Everytime mexicans are the talk to some or most here, it's something bad and I have to forgive you because you just talk generalizing. I wont call you all ignorant but the fact is that you ignore many things. I attended college in San Diego and along with me several, many other Tijuana residents and it was Southwestern College. What you people that are generalizing ignore is that we paid foreign student tuition, yes we paid to attend and it was a lot of money, we never got it free or took advantage of "your system" and I'm very proud of it. Later I went on to travel school and also paid tuition, so what if I had mexican plates, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? As for mexicans going across every day to take advantage of education there are some but they get caught eventualy by CBP if not by the school. Many people that live in border towns and look mexican and talk spanish and drive cars with mexican plates are US citizens, did you ever think about that? And don't get me started on beeing born in the US having taken advantage of "Your System" I paid when my kids were born. As for the levels of education, talking k-12, I would never allow my children to attend school in the South Bay area of San Diego, not if they have an opportunity to attend better schools in Tijuana, ones with much higher academic levels, are taught values and all wear uniforms.
And is Tijuana safe, yes, very safe, I have my wife and kids here

FDT,

When I mentioned that a lot of children use the public school system in San Diego I was expressing exactly what I saw, nothing more---nothing less. I did not mention those of you that were educated and paid for college in the US and this was offered to you and you enjoyed this LEGALLY. This isn't only my SYSTEM it is yours also and you used it and paid for it LEGALLY. I for one am glad you went to college in San Diego.

You know quite well the direction of my post. I stated that there were a lot of Baja plated vehicles that were dropping off children and that could have been one of the reasons for the delay at certain times of the day at the border. Yes, the drivers of these vehicles could very well have been US citizens. I don't care if you were driving a Baja plated vehicle when you went to your college or travel school but I was concerned about those neighbors of yours that make the drive every day (Mexican Citizens) to take their children to public schools in the US and they, and the Mexican Govt. do not pay for it nor do they get "caught eventually". Now I know that you are not ignorant but I am 100% positive you know what I am talking about however your response was what I thought I would get from someone living in TJ. Your always being picked on, right? You try and dodge and make excuses for existing problems that will never be resolved.

Please, please tell me what you would think if the public school system in Tijuana was offering free lunches, English speaking teachers for those ILLEGAL American kids that were crossing the border every day, can't speak Spanish and it was necessary to pay extra for bi-lingual teachers, and the class rooms were over capacity and the teachers could not provide a more one-on-one with the students that needed it, and you being a Mexican citizen were paying for it?

The statement you made about every time Mexicans are mentioned it is something bad? Where in the world did that come from?

I have paid for my son to go to school here in Mexico (he is a Mexican citizen), pay for my FM2 every year, and live LEGALLY.

The only thing you got right out of your entire tired post was the fact that children k through 12 in school here in Mexico do receive an excellent education. My son is in the tenth grade now, wears a uniform and I think is properly educated but I pay $250.00 per month for this to happen. I will not send him to a public school full of cholos...

Oh, I am a US citizen and drive a Baja plated car.

You and everyone in Mexico is not being picked on----It's just that you DON'T GET IT AND NEVER WILL MY FRIEND.....

fdt - 7-13-2008 at 04:13 PM

I do get it and I am not for illegal immigrants i've never said that. As for all posts beeing bad it's just recently seems to be the trend with a bunch of newbies with an agenda but I guess it will pass. I have always reported here when there is trouble and what to avoid and yes there are people that go across and get a free education without the proper paperwork, they even get financial aid and more. I just insist that it is not the majority. I think it's a few only.

Why would this increase taxes?

thebajarunner - 7-13-2008 at 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
Just give them all ss# and tax them.

If they have no SS#, or it is not a legal number, then they have no ability to collect benefits.

If they work for cash, then the employer cannot deduct the payments, and thus he is burdened with paying a greater income tax.

The taxation and benefits aspects of the illegal worker are quite skewed in favor of the U.S. government, and most "honest" analyses of this situation bear this out.

Hard for most to admit, but still true.

Barry A. - 7-13-2008 at 04:35 PM

Runner--------I would be very interested in your sources of any of the info you just stated---------that is contrary to what I have been told by the media and other sources.

Please tell me what your sources are.

Barry

Barry, from NYTimes

thebajarunner - 7-13-2008 at 04:57 PM

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

NEW YORK TIMES
By EDUARDO PORTER
April 5, 2005
[Front Page]
STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.
Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.
He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.
Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."
It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.
Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.
IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation.
Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.
In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.
Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.
Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."
Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.
A comparative handful of former illegal immigrant workers who have obtained legal residence have been able to accredit their previous earnings to their new legal Social Security numbers. Mr. Camarota is among those opposed to granting a broad amnesty to illegal immigrants, arguing that, among other things, they might claim Social Security benefits and put further financial stress on the system.
The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations.
Most immigration helps Social Security's finances, because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a trillion dollars, valued in today's money.
Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits. According to Mr. Goss, without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.
Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico's Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven't asked," Mr. Tapia said.
For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture.
"There will be a moment when I won't be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that's many years off."
Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can't recall anybody over 60 without papers."
No doubt most illegal immigrants would prefer to avoid Social Security altogether. As part of its efforts to properly assign the growing pile of unassigned wages, Social Security sends about 130,000 letters a year to employers with large numbers of mismatched pay statements.
Though not an intended consequence of these so-called no-match letters, in many cases employers who get them dismiss the workers affected. Or the workers - fearing that immigration authorities might be on their trail - just leave.
Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico, who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe's, a popular discount food retailer with a large operation in California.
The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.'s records." Most could not.
Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a company official, acknowledged that many left.
Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal records.
With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of $19,000.
She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States.
"I don't pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don't get any benefit."

mtgoat666 - 7-13-2008 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

Likewise, immigrants pay sales taxes and contribute to property taxes thru payments to landlords.

ultimately, all gringos benefit, as they get cheap labor and the underpaid workers are paying taxes. i doubt that their ocasional use of social services is a bigger burden than economic benefits realized by gringos.

the xenophobes don't like to admit this :lol:

rts551 - 7-13-2008 at 05:14 PM

LL

I always enjioy your posts and have never found you to be "out there". But $250 a month???? quiet a deal isn't it for a US citizen? and for a good education as well. I wouldn't complain to much

Quote:

Originally posted by lizard lips

The only thing you got right out of your entire tired post was the fact that children k through 12 in school here in Mexico do receive an excellent education. My son is in the tenth grade now, wears a uniform and I think is properly educated but I pay $250.00 per month for this to happen. I will not send him to a public school full of cholos...

Oh, I am a US citizen and drive a Baja plated car.

You and everyone in Mexico is not being picked on----It's just that you DON'T GET IT AND NEVER WILL MY FRIEND.....

Barry, this one is much more powerful

thebajarunner - 7-13-2008 at 05:32 PM

hope you can open it,
it is 35 pages, pdf, but you only need to read the summary

http://www.hacer-mn.org/downloads/English_Reports/EconomicIm...

bancoduo - 7-13-2008 at 05:48 PM

GOAT666

Why were you fired from URS. You seem really angry. I heard you almost went postal in your little box (cubical). :?:

Us XENOBHOBES need to know. :lol:

[Edited on 7-14-2008 by bancoduo]

lizard lips - 7-13-2008 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
LL

I always enjioy your posts and have never found you to be "out there". But $250 a month???? quiet a deal isn't it for a US citizen? and for a good education as well. I wouldn't complain to much

Quote:

Originally posted by lizard lips

The only thing you got right out of your entire tired post was the fact that children k through 12 in school here in Mexico do receive an excellent education. My son is in the
tenth grade now, wears a uniform and I think is properly educated but I pay $250.00 per month for this to happen. I will not send him to a public school full of cholos...

Oh, I am a US citizen and drive a Baja plated car.

You and everyone in Mexico is not being picked on----It's just that you DON'T GET IT AND NEVER WILL MY FRIEND.....

rts, Ask my wife----I complain about everything! and fdt----Sorry, I got off on a rant and didn't in any way want you to think I was pickin on you with the GET IT statement. I would really like you to address this matter on your radio program and see what kind of response you get.

Even though I am an American citizen I have probably seen more of Mexico than 99% of you and have great Mexican friends all over the country. I have worked in every state in Mexico and have been back to most of these several times. I have first hand seen different cities recently come alive with new businesses and an influx of a common middle class than I ever seen before. With all of the new opportunities available in Mexico for it citizens I really think that eventually there will not be close to as many illegal crossings as there have been in the past. The country of Mexico is on a mission to improve what has been lacking for several generations and Im not talking about Cabo or places like Cancun. The city of Saltillo, just south of Monterrey has literally put a new face on. I couldn't believe it when I was there a few weeks ago. The new businesses I saw were very impressive and the same is true for Augascalient, Zacatecas, Durango. I could go on and on but eventually Mexico will improve so much that there will be opportunities for "EVERYONE" and not just people that were born into money as it has been. You really don't see it as much here in Baja as you do in the interior. Kids here in Mexico after high school most all go directly to college and get a degree. It is common place now as it really was not available that much in the past. Universities in Mexico City, Monterrey, and Guadalajara are as good or better than they are in the states. The colleges here in Ensenada are great schools. Ok, my wife just said dinner is ready so I must stop this rant now. I hope al of you can actually visit the interior of Mexico and really see what is happening. Im impressed.........

Barry A. - 7-13-2008 at 06:41 PM

Lizard----------I pray that you are right-------I have been waiting a long time for this to happen, and have become discouraged lately-------your upbeat appraisail is good to hear. I do hope you are correct, and the trend continues. It is so good to hear from people that are actually "living" it.

Barry

movinguy - 7-13-2008 at 08:30 PM

Quote:

There are also lots of upper-class Mexicans in TJ who cross to send their kids to private k-12 school in San Diego - more than you might think . . .

805gregg - 7-14-2008 at 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
Just about like drugs, eliminate the demand - drug users/employers and there is no need for drug smugglers/illegal workers.

You are obviously not an employer, doesn't work that way.

Taco de Baja - 7-14-2008 at 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

All I can say, goat, is I hope an illegal steals your SS#. What is it again? 666-66-6666?

Identity theft, alone negates any benefits, as the typical victim has to spend $1,000's to prove they really did not earn $20,000 working in a chicken plant in Illinois, all while residing in Oregon....not to mention all the other costs to the victim and the business community, associated with ONLY the identity fraud.

The illegal supporters always “forget” about these costs.

Quote:

A Grand Jury in Florida estimates the average cost for the business community for each episode of identity theft is $17,000 per victim. (Over $11.9 billion dollars a year)

The costs to federal agencies are enormous. Per identity theft case, the cost to the U.S. office of Attorneys is $11,443, and per financial crime investigation is $15-20,000.

Victims of identity theft spend, on average, over 175 hours of their time working to clear their name.

Link

Quote:

Average Cost of ID Theft Per Victim is $31,356
Finally, a report that looks much more accurate with regard to how much identity theft costs the VICTIMS of a privacy breach. Most reported victim costs that I have seen in the past seemed much too low considering all the time that victims talked about trying to repair and recover from identity theft, and how much resources it took, the many years it often takes, and so on.
An InformationWeek article, "Identity Theft: Costs More, Tech Less" reports, "the median actual dollar loss for identity theft victims was $31,356."

Much higher than the $740 - $5,720 ranges per victim that other researchers have typically cited.

Link

How in the world did you get this far off track?

thebajarunner - 7-14-2008 at 08:20 AM

Quote Taco de Baja...

"All I can say, goat, is I hope an illegal steals your SS#. What is it again? 666-66-6666?"

Now I have heard it all!!!

"Illegals" (your word, by the way) engaged in identity theft?

Man, what will they do next?
Take over Fort Knox....
Steal all our nukes warheads????

I have heard a lot of complaints against undocumented people,
stealing identity theft is not one of them...

mtgoat666 - 7-14-2008 at 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

Quote:

Link

Quote:

Link

whoa! taco, you old people are easily confused!
the "costly" identity theft you refer to is about people obtaining fraudulent credit.
the identity theft of immigrants borrowing SS#s to obtain work generally has nothing to do with illegally obtaining credit.

taco, someday there will be a cure for your senile dementia. until then, soldier on!

[Edited on 7-14-2008 by mtgoat666]

bajaguy - 7-14-2008 at 08:40 AM

Goat:

ILLEGAL immigrants do not "borrow" SS numbers, they STEAL them. It is a crime.

Barry A. - 7-14-2008 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
hope you can open it,
it is 35 pages, pdf, but you only need to read the summary

http://www.hacer-mn.org/downloads/English_Reports/EconomicIm...

Runner--------I did not see this article (your response to me) or the other one, until this morning-------yes, they are powerful information. Someone said that we anti-illegal immigrant folks would not admit that this was happening----heck, I had NO IDEA that this was happening!! I can honestly say that this was the first time I have seen an authoritive article on the subject of illegals contribution to the "system".

That info does mitigate my position, I admit, but of course I am still very concerned about the "illegal" aspects of these folks, and the impacts they are having on hospitals and other USA "services"-------in other words the moneys they are contributing to USA systems don't seem to be compensating the people and institutions that are impacted most. That is a problem.

I remain skeptical, but your provided information and sources were a big plus, in my mind, to your point of view.

Thank you. Education is ALWAYS the answer (and I thought I WAS educated-------pretty funny) :?:

Barry

Barry- thank you for your gracious response

thebajarunner - 7-14-2008 at 08:56 AM

Sometimes we tend to blow and go on this board (well, more than sometimes) and it is refreshing to get new info, to get a new spin on things, and best of all to admit it.
I will only admit to one thing..... it is always tough for me to admit to anything (hope that makes sense- I know what I mean)

Meanwhile, those who are outraged by "stolen SS#'s"
Wish they would steal my number and use it, it would build up even more in my account and that poor devil would never be able to claim benefits.

"Please, please, don't toss me back in the blackberry patch" Uncle Remus.....

fdt - 7-14-2008 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by movinguy
There are also lots of upper-class Mexicans in TJ who cross to send their kids to private k-12 school in San Diego - more than you might think . . .

Yes I know but those are private schools and they have to pay. I know of a few people that live in San Diego and send theire kids to school in Tijuana, go figure.

woody with a view - 7-14-2008 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Meanwhile, those who are outraged by "stolen SS#'s"
Wish they would steal my number and use it, it would build up even more in my account and that poor devil would never be able to claim benefits.

what you mean is you'd be overjoyed to be audited and happily explain tens of thousands of dollars (if you are lucky enough to be used by just one ILLEGAL and your number isn't passed around by a group of them) of unreported income on your income taxes!

sounds great to me too! have fun with that.....

DianaT - 7-14-2008 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Such very good points. Having taught high school in Calexico, we had students from Mexicali. Yes, there were some that did not pay and every so often the school district would set people at the border to see who was crossing each day---but here are a few things from a teachers point of view.

1. Some of the students paid to go to school in Calexico--yes, one from Mexico can pay to go to the US public schools.

2. Some of the teachers in Calexico paid to have their children go to private schools in Mexicali.

3. Many of our students attended public school in Mexico until junior high and then changed to school in the US. For the most part, they were amoung our BEST students. They had a solid educational background and a respect for education.

4. License plates tell nothing. Many of our neighbors, ¨legal¨residents had Baja plates and businesses in Baja. Many people in Mexicali had US plates. We had students who were US citizens, but lived on the other side===so technically, they were illegal.

5. Calexico Unified School district is a mess, has many, many problems, and NONE of those problems are caused by students crossing the border == even though they like to blame it on the crossing students at times.

6. Those students and parents who crossed the border spent a lot of money in Calexico.

It is not a simple equation, but Ferna is quite right about some of the education, IMHO. It seems to be that Americans always think we have the best, the best everything, and that is not always the case.

Thoughts from a very patriotic liberal==just following in the tradition of our liberal founders. :yes:

Diane

Neighbors with FOREIGN license Plates ?

MrBillM - 7-14-2008 at 11:20 AM

If you "reside" in California, any vehicles registered in your name and used in California are REQUIRED to be licensed in California so I don't think you can say they had legally-licensed vehicles.

The DMV encourages residents to "Drop a Dime" on their neighbors because those neighbors are adding to YOUR tax liability by evading theirs.

[Edited on 7-14-2008 by MrBillM]

Taco de Baja - 7-14-2008 at 12:48 PM

Quote:

So how costly is it when the IRS sends you a CP-2000 letter asking for back taxes, interest and penalties for $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 of income you never earned. How much is your time worth for the 100’s of hours you will spend to clean the whole mess up, and maybe even get a new SS#? In the eyes of the IRS you are guilty until you can prove otherwise.

And "borrowing" a SS#...Please, don’t insult us, it's not a cup of sugar.

And are you claiming that the illegally documented aliens ONLY use the stolen SS# for working? Or are they also obtaining credit cars, buying cars, and houses...?

You are the one whom is confused

Mango - 7-14-2008 at 04:11 PM

Just to get a little more off topic.. I really think the new limited edition aluminum Tecate bottles are cool.

I'm still trying to thing of a worthy use for my empties..

I Haven't Bothered to Read All the Ranting

Gypsy Jan - 7-14-2008 at 04:49 PM

Or to deconstruct the various politcal/tax/economic analysis from our expert commenters.

But, good Nomads, let me pose a question--if a family (of whatever nationality) struggles, sacrifices and makes the strongest efforts to educate their children in the best available institutions that they can access, aren't we creating a better class of people, regardless of nationality?

That these children, on the most part, retain a sense of where they are from, but also gain an appreciation of the education that maybe comes from another culture, and, hopefully, have a strong sense of obligation about what they can contribute back to all of these influences as they enter their productive years?

It's all a crapshoot with children, but endless poverty and ignorance inevitably produce new generations that grow up embittered and attracted to unrest and violence, "As a way to make a difference".