BajaNomad - Mexico Fatigue?

Mexico Fatigue?

memo - 7-20-2008 at 08:33 PM

After reading the recent posts on this forum, the back and forth about Mexico lovers vs mexico "haters" it seems to me the issue can partly be explained as Mexico Fatigue. A sort of ennui experienced by expats and frequent visitors to Mexico. Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights, police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education? Why can't the sewers accept toilet paper? Mexico is rich in natural resources and blessed with a hard working, ethical population. But it remains, at best, a third world country.

I believe most Americanos are simply bored with the failure of Mexico to live up to it's potential. We are tired of the excuses, i.e, "its their culture, learn to love it" and "if you don't like it, don't visit" etc.

When will Mexicans come to grips with reality? Why is the main street of every burg in Mexico named "avenida Revolucion" when the people don't seem to have the guts to actually conduct a revolution anymore? I''ve been visiting Mexico for fifty years and frankly I have grown weary of the excuses. There are many wonderful countries on this planet that have decided to honor human dignity and rights where the people live in freedom and grace. Why Mexico is not one of them can be argued all night. Many of us simply don't care anymore.

palmeto99 - 7-20-2008 at 08:36 PM

Great post... :cool:

Udo - 7-20-2008 at 08:45 PM

Ey, memo!
you are right on on your assesment of Mexico, however, your last statement..."Many of simply don't care anymore"
Why did you join this post if caring about Baja is not in you?? :?:

Culture Clash

Loretana - 7-20-2008 at 08:49 PM

Memo,

has dado el clavo!

(translation: you have hit the nail on the head) :dudette:

Barry A. - 7-20-2008 at 08:55 PM

Memo-----

I still "care", but mostly I agree with you. I invested heavily in Mexican stocks for years and years, and they did reward me, but Mexico's failure to advance (IMO) in the way you outline finally discouraged me about 6 years ago, and I withdrew my investments, never to return (other than CEMEX which is a worldclass company)

I still visit, but it is for selfish reasons, now, and mostly for the geography, and the rural folks that still welcome me with a smile.

It is very sad.

I mainly stay on this board to read David's posts and adventures, along with several others------I find all their posts truly interesting and they inspire me to return and explore------the more detailed the reports are the better I like them. :yes:

Barry

palmeto99 - 7-20-2008 at 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by udowinkler
Ey, memo!
you are right on on your assesment of Mexico, however, your last statement..."Many of simply don't care anymore"
Why did you join this post if caring about Baja is not in you?? :?:

Does one have to love Baja to post here now. You can still be part of the precious Baja and have fallen out of love with it. .......... :cool:

Udo - 7-20-2008 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by palmeto99

Quote:

Does one have to love Baja to post here now. You can still be part of the precious Baja and have fallen out of love with it. .......... :cool:

Quote:

You are again, right on...Memo

Great minds think alike ???

beercan - 7-20-2008 at 09:22 PM

The only Mexican stock that I hold !

Quote:

By Barry
(other than CEMEX which is a worldclass company)

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by beercan]

Everyone has their own

Bajajack - 7-20-2008 at 09:46 PM

agenda as I have mine, still go there frequently but not to soak up the famous culture.

Ignorance, poverty and filth do not constitute culture.

Sharksbaja - 7-20-2008 at 09:47 PM

What kills me are the Mexico haters in Mexico.

rpleger - 7-20-2008 at 10:00 PM

If you don't like México, then don't come down here. Stay away and go Americanize some other country.

Packoderm - 7-21-2008 at 05:32 AM

I agree with Memo 100%. However, the scenario he (she?) describes is a part of the reason I go there. It's part of the adventure and affordability. Is that selfish of me? Yes, probably. As for there being Mexico haters, I don't buy it. It would seem more hateful not to care enough about the people to wish the best for them. Anyway, America does not hold a monopoly on basic human rights, police protection, clean drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education, and sewers that don't stink up the streets and accept toilet paper. Perhaps it could be called Europization, or even Japanization.

palmeto99 - 7-21-2008 at 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
I agree with Memo 100%. However, the scenario he (she?) describes is a part of the reason I go there. It's part of the adventure and affordability. Is that selfish of me? Yes, probably. As for there being Mexico haters, I don't buy it. It would seem more hateful not to care enough about the people to wish the best for them. Anyway, America does not hold a monopoly on basic human rights, police protection, clean drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education, and sewers that don't stink up the streets and accept toilet paper. Perhaps it could be called Europization, or even Japanization.

Good post... Its not hating to call a spade a shovel.. :cool:

Osprey - 7-21-2008 at 06:16 AM

For me it was a no brainer. It was close, cheap, warm and full of fish. Where else could I get to in my old pickup quickly, easily, buy a little house near the beach, hunker down and wait for my SS to kick in.

While living and working almost all my adult life in Las Vegas I would take advantage of the uncluttered, rustic beauty of Southern Utah, fishing, camping every weekend I could get away from the city. As the tourists filled up an already crowded fantasyland I would run to the hinterlands.

So this is my retirement Utah. I'll be fine down here as long as I can fight the urge to change anything but me.

Diver - 7-21-2008 at 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
I'll be fine down here as long as I can fight the urge to change anything but me.

Great words Osprey; words to live by.

baitcast - 7-21-2008 at 06:32 AM

Yes a great post! never seen it explained like that,they can do much better,but why don,t they? still love the place tho.
Rob

shari - 7-21-2008 at 07:02 AM

I guess we all have our limits and baja sort of sorts out the tolerant from the not in good time...hopefully those of you who hate it so much and can't abide the fact that is it NOT the U.S of A....will just plain stay out...as I have always said...baja is NOT for everyone.

bigeye - 7-21-2008 at 07:13 AM

I can see the tourist ad now.

Mexico, its totally screwed up, if you don't like it, stay the f out.

MEXICO, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

memo - 7-21-2008 at 07:20 AM

Here's a bumper sticker idea for Shari and her friends. Unfortunately it refects the Mexican governments entire social policy. And, as we all know, many of the best and brightest have taken the advice and left Mexico. The brain drain will continue forever, aided by the enablers, like Shari, who embrace the love it or leave it philosophy. I humbly suggest the real Mexico lovers are those with the guts to remain and seek positive change.

comitan - 7-21-2008 at 08:27 AM

What a bunch of flip floppers, on one side everyone says to much development to much change, now you want change (positive) :?:

I personally like it the way it is, in fact La Paz is growing too fast, it still has the flavor of Mexico but all the new commercial bldgs are very modern given time La Paz will be the way you north of the border want it, but then you will b-tch because it not Mexico. :lol:

Pescador - 7-21-2008 at 12:44 PM

Memo, I think you have missed the point entirely. It is not about Mexico haters versus Mexico lovers. It seems to be more an issue of whether or not we should be changing the "way things are" or "letting things be".
You say," Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights". I am not really sure what you refer to here as the citizens of Mexico have the right to vote and rights guaranteed by their constitution. Are they the same as the United States? No, but this is not the United States.
Next, " police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education?" This infastructure is a very expensive proposition and in the United States we work until July just to pay our share of the cost of these services. Should we wish that type of a tax burden on our southern neighbors so that they have the same degree of infastructure as we have? Same thing with trash disposal and modern sewers which can handle things like toilet paper and feminine products in their systems.
And then you say, "I believe most Americanos are simply bored with the failure of Mexico to live up to it's potential. We are tired of the excuses, i.e, "its their culture, learn to love it" and "if you don't like it, don't visit" etc.
I find it refreshing that the infastructure is limited in Mexico because I feel like I have a clearer idea of what those services cost. An example is when I go to a restaurant in the United States, I not only have to pay my portion of the building, management, workers, but am also funding healthcare, retirement, workers compensation, sick leave, etc, etc, whereas in Mexico I can have a nice meal that is a comfortable level above the cost of the raw materials. I can even have a cold beer for around $1.50 which is certainly better than the $5.00 at an American Restaurant for the same item.
Finally, I think it is an important issue that we are careful to remind ourselves that we are visitors to a foreign country and that when we are asked for our input and knowledge that we share freely, but when we rudely insist on compliance with our inappropriate sense of meddling because we think we may have a better way, we are doing just that, meddling.
It sounds like you have gotten to the point where the negatives outweigh the positives and that is fine on a personal basis. That is the essence of how personal decisions are made and you are to be congratulated on the fact that you have come to a decision about your own personal tolerances. But please do not expect that those whose paradigms do not match your own will come to the same decisions.
I think that when Mexico wants and needs to change their system they will do exactly that, with or without us.

Cypress - 7-21-2008 at 12:50 PM

I wouldn't change a thing about Baja.

It's changing tho, wish it wasn't, but it is. So is the rest of the world. :yes:

rpleger - 7-21-2008 at 12:52 PM

RIGHT ON Pescador ... I wish I could express myself like you can...Right on

Skeet/Loreto - 7-21-2008 at 12:55 PM

Very well Put.
Thanks for the very Positive words.

Skeet

elizabeth - 7-21-2008 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights, police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education? Why can't the sewers accept toilet paper?

I'm not getting into this battle, but just for a little perspective...

I live (principally at this point) in Stinson Beach California. The nearest sheriff's substation is 40 minutes away, we have no natural gas...propane is delivered by truck, unless they forget, we get no home delivery of mail...need to go to the post office to pick it up, the California educational system is pretty awful...we don't have sewers, we have on site septic systems, and about the cheapest house you can find here is a million dollars, and they head uphill to about 7 million at the moment.

Just for information purpose...Mexican sewers and sewers anywhere, as well as septic systems can handle toilet paper, it is the plumbing in the house to the system that is the problem...it can be fixed.

memo - 7-21-2008 at 01:27 PM

To Pescador, One of the "rights" I am talking about is the right to a fair and speedy trial. A Mexican aquaintance of mine was wrongly accused of a crime and spent three months in jail, without possibility of bail, before it was determined he was in fact innocent of all charges. It was a devastating experience and changed his life forever. It is the Mexican system of "justice". He needed to prove he was innocent, his accuser, to put him behind bars, did not need to prove anything. If you can accept that as a fair system then God help you if you are ever falsely accused of anything while in Mexico. As for voting rights in Mexico, who cares? You are actually beginning to "bore me again" with the same old tired arguments I first referred to.

PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope.

elizabeth - 7-21-2008 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
To Pescador, One of the "rights" I am talking about is the right to a fair and speedy trial. A Mexican aquaintance of mine was wrongly accused of a crime and spent three months in jail, without possibility of bail, before it was determined he was in fact innocent of all charges. It was a devastating experience and changed his life forever. It is the Mexican system of "justice". He needed to prove he was innocent, his accuser, to put him behind bars, did not need to prove anything. If you can accept that as a fair system then God help you if you are ever falsely accused of anything while in Mexico. As for voting rights in Mexico, who cares? You are actually beginning to "bore me again" with the same old tired arguments I first referred to.

PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope.

Given the emphasis on infrastructure in your initial post, it would be hard to tell that what you were talking about was the Mexican judicial system, which is currently under reform.

You really must not know the people of Stinson Beach to call them snobs, and since you don't know us, resorting to name calling doesn't leave me with much of a good impression of you.

memo - 7-21-2008 at 02:50 PM

Elizabeth, I know a bit about Stinson Beach. When I lived and went to school in San Francisco we would drive up there because it is a beautiful beach. Usually we would stop in Muir Woods, though, to commune with nature. When I say "snobs" I refer to the fact that, as much as you would suggest on this forum that you are roughing it, i.e,. propane, septic, etc., you failed to mention that in a few minutes drive you can take lunch in Sausalito or in a few more minutes be seated for tea and cookies at the Mark Hopkins. All the while, mind you, enjoying the knowledge that you won't spend more then ten minutes in custody if falsely accused of a crime. Knowing you can post bail, in any amount, thanks to the bail lenders, aka bailbondsmen, located conveniently near every jailhouse in the US. My friend waited three months and underwent unspeakable hell in jail until the magistratres in Ensenada decided it was time to hear his case. I'd like to hear a serious response from you on this seminal issue, rather than more talk about Mexico bashing, etc.

Here, by the way, is why I call them "snobs":

http://www.city-data.com/city/Stinson-Beach-California.html

You say the nearest Sheriff is 40 minutes away, but fail to point out that San Francisco is a big 17 miles away. Stinson Beach: 94% caucasion, median income 100k, median home price 500k (sorry, your house is worth about half of what you claim) you connect the dots, you pick up the pieces.

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

BMG - 7-21-2008 at 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo

PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope.

What does a Stinson Beach resident (snob or not) have to do with your friend's jailing and why would you want to see them jailed?

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-21-2008 at 03:19 PM

BajaShelly - 7-21-2008 at 03:23 PM

As a woman that watches this website for information prior to my trips into Mexico. I find it interesting that there is such a nasty response to anyone who talks about the problems in Baja. Baja can be dirty and even dangerous but pointing that out should not be an invitation for abuse. Mexico was more fun years ago before this silly drug problem reared its head but it has its problems just like my country does.I want to know any and all information because it might be what makes me change my travel plans. Its not easy to travel as women these days anyways.

Just my 2 cents worth.

It's like talking to a wall.

Bajajack - 7-21-2008 at 03:24 PM

:rolleyes:

fulano - 7-21-2008 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
I find it refreshing that the infastructure is limited in Mexico because I feel like I have a clearer idea of what those services cost. An example is when I go to a restaurant in the United States, I not only have to pay my portion of the building, management, workers, but am also funding healthcare, retirement, workers compensation, sick leave, etc, etc, whereas in Mexico I can have a nice meal that is a comfortable level above the cost of the raw materials.

I could write a book about what you do not know about Mexico. Each and every one of those items that you think Mexican restaurants don't pay? Well guess what, Pesacador. They are ALL there in the Mexican tax system. There is even more. The restaurant owner is required by law to pay out a bonus of 10% of his tax profits to his employees.

You must be talking about those street carts that are exempt from almost everything because they have no employees, just the owner. They are also exempt from -- or ignore -- the health codes that restaurants have to follow. The next time you are trying to figure out whether to put your head or your butt over the toilet because you have the "trots", ask yourself something. Where was that guy getting the hot water to clean his utensils? Did you see a water pipe running into that cart?

You are happy with a limited infrastructure because you live in Mexico on a limited income and want to make sure there is a never-ending supply of brown-skinned mestizos to fix you cheap tacos and fetch your Pacifico.

WILL THE TROUBLEMAKERS PLEASE JUMP IN AND COMMIT SUICIDE!

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-21-2008 at 03:31 PM

DianaT - 7-21-2008 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Here's a bumper sticker idea for Shari and her friends. Unfortunately it refects the Mexican governments entire social policy. And, as we all know, many of the best and brightest have taken the advice and left Mexico. The brain drain will continue forever, aided by the enablers, like Shari, who embrace the love it or leave it philosophy. I humbly suggest the real Mexico lovers are those with the guts to remain and seek positive change.

I will not, and don't pretend to speak for others, but for me, the constant bashing of everything Mexican and Mexico in general is tiresome, but it is not an enabling Love it or Leave it attitude, just an attitude of accept it in an over all way, or leave it.

Some Mexicans I know want change, and others do not. Even here in this small village there is quite a bit of controversy over what is happening. It is changing quickly and everyone knows that when the road is complete, change is apt to accelerate.

Some of the locals really look forward to the change and possible financial rewards, others don't want it at all. IMHO, it really is a matter of acceptance and tolerance levels, and yes, if one cannot accept it, than they should leave, leave if they are fatigued. We have left other countries with cultural fatigue.

Just like a person, a country changes when it desires change, and not before.

Besides, I just shake my head with your reference to Human Rights Abuses, with all that has been happening in the US.

So what good does it do to personally attack Shari and others who are suffering fatigue from the Mexico bashing? Or, why attack alll the residents of a California beach town?

If you are fatigued, that is understandable, there are lots of places to visit and live.

Good Luck

Diane

vandenberg - 7-21-2008 at 03:33 PM

Quote:

You are happy with a limited infrastructure because you live in Mexico on a limited income and want to make sure there is a never-ending supply of brown-skinned mestizos to fix you cheap tacos and fetch your Pacifico.

Pescador,
Did you realize that this guy has you pegged :?:

On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano/a.

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by vandenberg]

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by vandenberg]

elizabeth - 7-21-2008 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Elizabeth, I know a bit about Stinson Beach. When I lived and went to school in San Francisco we would drive up there because it is a beautiful beach. Usually we would stop in Muir Woods, though, to commune with nature. When I say "snobs" I refer to the fact that, as much as you would suggest on this forum that you are roughing it, i.e,. propane, septic, etc., you failed to mention that in a few minutes drive you can take lunch in Sausalito or in a few more minutes be seated for tea and cookies at the Mark Hopkins. All the while, mind you, enjoying the knowledge that you won't spend more then ten minutes in custody if falsely accused of a crime. Knowing you can post bail, in any amount, thanks to the bail lenders, aka bailbondsmen, located conveniently near every jailhouse in the US. My friend waited three months and underwent unspeakable hell in jail until the magistratres in Ensenada decided it was time to hear his case. I'd like to hear a serious response from you on this seminal issue, rather than more talk about Mexico bashing, etc.

Here, by the way, is why I call them "snobs":

http://www.city-data.com/city/Stinson-Beach-California.html

You say the nearest Sheriff is 40 minutes away, but fail to point out that San Francisco is a big 17 miles away. Stinson Beach: 94% caucasion, median income 100k, median home price 500k (sorry, your house is worth about half of what you claim) you connect the dots, you pick up the pieces.

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]

I know...I shouldn't respond to this outrageous nonsense...but, here I am. You are seriously understating distances here. San Francisco is 50 minutes to an hour away, and I drive fast. The road is very narrow and winding. Sausalito is a half hour. I say the sheriff because that's whose jurisdiction this is. I never said anyone here was "roughing it". I was saying that your perceived failures in infrastructure are not necessarily failures, and occur in a lot of places. And I never made any claim of what my house was worth! For that matter, you don't even know whether or not I have one.

As to detention...no one here is out when accused of a crime (rightfully or wrongfully, which you wouldn't know until a plea or judgment by judge or jury) in ten minutes. There are an awful lot of people sitting in the Marin County jail awaiting trial because they cannot afford bail...and some of them sit there for far more than 3 months.

I understand that the Marin County Jail is a considerably nicer place to stay than pretty much any jail in Mexico, or a number of other countries. I'm just saying that if you want to talk about the judicial system or infrastructure of Mexico, stop making absurd or misleading or outright incorrect comparisons.

And, if you want to have a genuine discourse on any topic, stop the name calling.

Baja 4 ME

MrBillM - 7-21-2008 at 04:12 PM

My goal was to live next to the Sea of Cortez.

It's still there.

Often (very often) we're the only people in the water.

As long as I hold together, things are OK.

No desire to be part of another culture. No desire to be part of my own.

Elizabeth

memo - 7-21-2008 at 04:30 PM

Talking to you is frustrating to say the least. You brought up Stinson Beach, I didn't. You compared it to Baja by pointing out the similarities, ie., septic tanks, propane, etc. You said the lack of these infrastructure elements can be found in many places, including Mexico and Stinson Beach. I am merely pointing out that in Mexico this lack of infrastructure is pervasive and not voluntary as it is in Stinson Beach. Wealthy, educated white people move voluntarily to Stinson Beach to be away from the hub bub but yet not too far to easily get their hair and nails done in Sausalito. By the way, Ross and Mill Valley are seven miles from SB and they aren't chopped liver. I lived in Mill Valley, next door to Ross, and these are exclusive communities. So, quit trying to put words in my mouth and quit pretending Stinson is the sister city of anywhere in Mexico. By the way, can you folks drink the water that comes from your kitchen tap?

fulano - 7-21-2008 at 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano

You're too late. Capt. George already called for that vote last week. He lost 20-to1.

...and HE has not been heard from since.

bigeye - 7-21-2008 at 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano/a.

Anybody willing to make such a statement must be a canidate themself.

This board is amazing. Seems the double standard is alive and well. No wonder you love Mexico so much. :lol:

vandenberg - 7-21-2008 at 05:49 PM

Quote:

[

Anybody willing to make such a statement must be a canidate themself.

Canidate,

Must be a canuck :biggrin:

Udo - 7-21-2008 at 05:55 PM

PESCADOR, FULANO AND ELINSTI8:
YOU GUYS ARE HILARIOUS, AND BRING A LOT OF FUN TO THIS POST.
COULD YOU TALK TO WHOMEVER IS IN CHARGE OF OUR POSTS AND PUT IN A NEW FORUM SUGGESTION TITTLED"

[I]SOAP BOX[/I][/B]

bigeye - 7-21-2008 at 05:58 PM

Don't tell me. You don't like Canadians either? :lol:

Udo - 7-21-2008 at 06:20 PM

MEMO, I ASK AGAIN...WHY DID YOU JOIN THIS FORUM?

WHY DON'T YOU COME BACK WHEN WE HAVE THE SOAP BOX TOPIC?

CaboRon - 7-21-2008 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by udowinkler
MEMO, I ASK AGAIN...WHY DID YOU JOIN THIS FORUM?

WHY DON'T YOU COME BACK WHEN WE HAVE THE SOAP BOX TOPIC?

Give it up UDO .... we have a soap box and it is called "off-topic"

CaboRon

Udo Wrinkler

memo - 7-21-2008 at 06:29 PM

I didn't realize I had to wear my cap backwards to post to this forum. I stand corrected. BTW, did you lose the propellor?

Chilling on brain drain --

Lee - 7-21-2008 at 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
The brain drain will continue forever, aided by the enablers, like Shari, who embrace the love it or leave it philosophy. I humbly suggest the real Mexico lovers are those with the guts to remain and seek positive change.

ALL this from a newbie less than a month old with 27 posts?

Some of your sage advice may fall on deaf ears when you start calling shari names.
You may have read a recent post by shari on this thread but you have NOT been around long enough to know her love of Mexico, or her family, or her Mexican citizenship status.

So, consider lurking awhile before making general and sweeping generalizations about Mexican issues and noMads posting here.

I defend Mexican women (shari), children and Torgugas. I am ZorroLee.

Lee - 7-21-2008 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Elizabeth, I know a bit about Stinson Beach. When I lived and went to school in San Francisco we would drive up there because it is a beautiful beach.

...... Stinson Beach: 94% caucasion, median income 100k, median home price 500k (sorry, your house is worth about half of what you claim) you connect the dots, you pick up the pieces.

Geezus. Eh, memo? You need to back up, regroup, and get a grip. What does your diatribe have to do with MX fatigue? Snobs in Marin County? YOU come across as a know-it-all knowing NOTHING about Elizabeth or Stinson Beach real estate.

So you lived in Mill Valley? You know NOTHING about people here and your broad-strokes about Baja are suspect.

If you want to discuss real estate in SoMa or Noe Valley, let me know u2u.

Keep on posting Memo

Bajajack - 7-21-2008 at 07:29 PM

some of us on here still believe in hearing both sides, Negative or Positive, it's what makes a Forum what it is.

Baja Nomad Fatigue

memo - 7-21-2008 at 08:09 PM

This is my 28th post to this forum. I am a newbie. My name is Memo. I am a newbie. I admit I am a newbie. I have always been a newbie and even if I never post here again I shall remain a newbie.

I was born a newbie.

I will die a newbie.

But if I really try I may be able to help others, other newbies, and tell them about this forum. Warn them. Warn their children.

I, Memo, am a newbie

CaboRon - 7-21-2008 at 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
some of us on here still believe in hearing both sides, Negative or Positive, it's what makes a Forum what it is.

CENSURE YOURSELF NOT OTHERS ... FREE SPEECH !!!!!

palmeto99 - 7-22-2008 at 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
some of us on here still believe in hearing both sides, Negative or Positive, it's what makes a Forum what it is.

CENSURE YOURSELF NOT OTHERS ... FREE SPEECH !!!!!

One of your better posts showing there is still hope for you. :cool:

Sharksbaja - 7-22-2008 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
This is my 28th post to this forum. I am a newbie. My name is Memo. I am a newbie. I admit I am a newbie. I have always been a newbie and even if I never post here again I shall remain a newbie.

I was born a newbie.

I will die a newbie.

But if I really try I may be able to help others, other newbies, and tell them about this forum. Warn them. Warn their children.

I, Memo, am a newbie

What's your point? All I see is a bunch of lamblasting of folks defending a place they love. You want them to shut up and stop that?

So you are trying to get the truth out? Then don't accept support from liars like the Palmster.

Well, at least you've got others to help you spread the bad word. Good job.................I guess. :rolleyes:

Cypress - 7-22-2008 at 01:00 PM

Been down Baja way a time or two.

It's a special place. It gets better the further south you get from the border. :tumble:

And even better when you take side trips east or west of Hwy 1. :biggrin:

Hwy 5 is an adventure.

When you get down to Cabo, it's time to turn around. :spingrin:

palmeto99 - 7-23-2008 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigeye

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano/a.

Anybody willing to make such a statement must be a canidate themself.

This board is amazing. Seems the double standard is alive and well. No wonder you love Mexico so much. :lol:

I will not give up my title without a fight.......... :cool:

SiReNiTa - 7-24-2008 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
After reading the recent posts on this forum, the back and forth about Mexico lovers vs mexico "haters" it seems to me the issue can partly be explained as Mexico Fatigue. A sort of ennui experienced by expats and frequent visitors to Mexico. Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights, police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education? Why can't the sewers accept toilet paper? Mexico is rich in natural resources and blessed with a hard working, ethical population. But it remains, at best, a third world country.

I believe most Americanos are simply bored with the failure of Mexico to live up to it's potential. We are tired of the excuses, i.e, "its their culture, learn to love it" and "if you don't like it, don't visit" etc.

When will Mexicans come to grips with reality? Why is the main street of every burg in Mexico named "avenida Revolucion" when the people don't seem to have the guts to actually conduct a revolution anymore? I''ve been visiting Mexico for fifty years and frankly I have grown weary of the excuses. There are many wonderful countries on this planet that have decided to honor human dignity and rights where the people live in freedom and grace. Why Mexico is not one of them can be argued all night. Many of us simply don't care anymore.

ok i was trying really hard to not post on this issue but you will have to understand me as it is my home country that you are talking about....first of all the fact that mexico is a third world country is one of the reasons that many people still come here!! after all why come if it was just another big city?? please please pleaaaaaaaaaaase don't tell us to get it together because (and this is not said to insult anyone) i know many mexican people that have it more put together than alot of tourists i have met in my short but full life time...i have been around tourists since i was born and thank God that most of them have been extremly nice people but there are also the not so nice ones. YES mexico is a third world country and who cares if it doesn't like toilet paper thrown down the sour pipes! i agree with what you said my mom said that if it's so third worl then....and i do not mean this as an insult...why bother coming here...and when you ask when will mexico come to grips with reality guess what pal this is our reality and yeah i will say get used to it and love it as it is, maybe it does have more potential and it is a very rich country but it is what it is and yes it is getting better but things take time as everyone knows on this board and yes they take more time in mexico, hey you want mexico to get better?? pay a poor childs school, get some one of the street, donate to schools and education, come and give a police seminar for all i care why do you want to make mexico in to a little U.S. it's not and i am sorry to disapoint you...i am aware that my words may sound agressive but to be completely sincere i am really sad and hurt and yes angry that you comment on things like that as if no one knew the situation mexico is in...i know as well as anyone that there is alot to do but the fact that you complain constantly and don't do anything is not going to help! the only thing you are going to get is people to really dislike you and i am truly sorry that i am beginning to be one of them. and please don't talk about mexican people not having guts when they work their butt's of every day to take a efw gains of rice home to their family, they take risks when the cross the boarder legal or not, they have the guts to make people like you feel at home in our country even when they know that alot of tourists will turn their backs and say oh stupid mexicans oh they don't even know how to read oh they don't have this or that...let me tell you that mexicans are the bravest people i knowand i am sure tons of people on this board will agree, they may not be rich and stuff like that but...the work through hard stuff evey day and i am proud to be a mexican..and to all the people that are true baja lovers and understand whta i am talking about please take no notice of my "agressive" words...i am sorry if i can not put this another way and i am sorry that baja nomad board has become a board where this kind of talk is present, i do not mean to offend you but this is how i feel...mexico and it's people may be poor and not have all the services you want but it has what it has and bless the people that understand that.

Thank You, SirRenta

memo - 7-24-2008 at 01:34 PM

Thank you for so eloquently making my point for me. I hope everyone on this message board reads your response.

I am a firm believer

Bajajack - 7-24-2008 at 01:35 PM

that baja is in dire need of a much better educational system.

Until then I don't see much hope. :biggrin:

Cypress - 7-24-2008 at 01:39 PM

From the lips of a child. The truth.

You rock, girl.

Pompano - 7-24-2008 at 01:42 PM

SiReNiTa, my old eyes needed some help, so I took this liberty...okay with you, I hope?

Quote: SiReNiTa said:

"ok i was trying really hard to not post on this issue but you will have to understand me as it is my home country that you are talking about...

.first of all the fact that mexico is a third world country is one of the reasons that many people still come here!! after all why come if it was just another big city??

please please pleaaaaaaaaaaase don't tell us to get it together because (and this is not said to insult anyone) i know many mexican people that have it more put together than alot of tourists i have met in my short but full life time...i have been around tourists since i was born and thank God that most of them have been extremly nice people but there are also the not so nice ones.

YES mexico is a third world country and who cares if it doesn't like toilet paper thrown down the sour pipes!

i agree with what you said my mom said that if it's so third worl then....and i do not mean this as an insult...why bother coming here...and when you ask when will mexico come to grips with reality

guess what pal this is our reality and yeah i will say get used to it and love it as it is, maybe it does have more potential and it is a very rich country but it is what it is and yes it is getting better but things take time as everyone knows on this board and yes they take more time in mexico,

hey you want mexico to get better?? pay a poor childs school, get some one of the street, donate to schools and education, come and give a police seminar for all i care

why do you want to make mexico in to a little U.S. it's not and i am sorry to disapoint you...i am aware that my words may sound agressive but to be completely sincere i am really sad and hurt and yes angry that you comment on things like that as if no one knew the situation mexico is in...

i know as well as anyone that there is alot to do but the fact that you complain constantly and don't do anything is not going to help! the only thing you are going to get is people to really dislike you and i am truly sorry that i am beginning to be one of them.

and please don't talk about mexican people not having guts when they work their butt's of every day to take a efw gains of rice home to their family, they take risks when the cross the boarder legal or not, they have the guts to make people like you feel at home in our country even when they know that alot of tourists will turn their backs and say oh stupid mexicans

oh they don't even know how to read oh they don't have this or that...let me tell you that mexicans are the bravest people i knowand i am sure tons of people on this board will agree, they may not be rich and stuff like that but...the work through hard stuff evey day and i am proud to be a mexican.

.and to all the people that are true baja lovers and understand whta i am talking about please take no notice of my "agressive" words...i am sorry if i can not put this another way and i am sorry that baja nomad board has become a board where this kind of talk is present, i do not mean to offend you but this is how i feel...

mexico and it's people may be poor and not have all the services you want but it has what it has and bless the people that understand that."

[Edited on 7-24-2008 by Pompano]

Cypress - 7-24-2008 at 01:51 PM

Pompano,

Words of wisdom from an adult with a year or two of experience. :yes:

SiReNiTa - 7-24-2008 at 01:53 PM

thank's pompano!!
i'm glad to see the point is made at least for those of you who care...and memo...i insist...don't mess with my mom...free speach and all that does not give you the right to say stuff like you are saying...and once again...please leave her alone because even though i am 18 and i am no more than a child in many ways i will not let you insult my country or my family with out a few words from me...so cut it out........please??!!

shari - 7-24-2008 at 01:59 PM

Being a mom and wanting to protect my daughter, I was truly hoping Sirenita wouldn't see the truly awful insults of late and respond in an angry way. The past year we have been wresting with the decision whether to send her to canada or the usa to study and after much consultation with professional people in her field(mostly americans) we learned that her best bet would be to study in Ensenada first as it is also affiliated with scripps institute and maybe later do her post grad in the states. Apparently our school system is not as bad as people think depending on the individual school I guess. I for one chose to educate my daughter here and am glad I did so.
I thank her for responding from the heart and not in a hurtful, disrespectful way...bien hecho hija.

SiReNiTa - 7-24-2008 at 02:13 PM

oh yeah!! to all the amazing sweet people that have been helping me and my family i just wanted to say...on a happier note...i am in!!!! i got in to univesity and am starting august 4th!!!! and i would not leave mexico if my life depended on it, the school i am going in to is one of the top 5 marine sciences schools in mexico and guess what!! it's a public school with goverment scholarships and all that so there...guess what memo?? mexican education is the bomb and sorry if you don't like it...maybe you should come to school here too and see what the real thing is about...and i thank my mom for raising me the way she did because of that i am what i am today... a hard core mexican teen with huge dreams and goals and no doubt that i will reach them thank's to many people who are there to help and support us and a hard head doesn't hurt either!!
love SiReNita (by the way it's only one R memo)

bajajudy - 7-24-2008 at 02:19 PM

Sirenita
Your post brought a flood of tears. You and all of your country people are the reason I love it here. When my friends asked...why in the world are you moving to Mexico? I had two words...the people.
Thanks for stating what to me is the obvious.

Y FELICIDADES
SUERTE EN EL UNIVERSIDAD

Congratulations, Sirenta

memo - 7-24-2008 at 02:22 PM

You've got plenty of spunk, that's for sure. But as I read your response, and your mothers, I think I understand the problem is a communication problem, because you can't possibly be responding to what I actually posted. I think I lost you when I used a rather arcane, actually French, word, ennui. To help you understand this does not mean anything hateful, here's the definition"

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This en·nui Audio Help (ŏn-wē', ŏn'wē

Pronunciation Key
n. Listlessness and dissatisfaction resulting from lack of interest; boredom: "The servants relieved their ennui with gambling and gossip about their masters" (John Barth).

A solid use of the English language will surely help you now and in the future, no matter where you go to school. A little French doesn't hurt, either.

Sharksbaja - 7-24-2008 at 02:29 PM

Amen, Little Mermaid. Thanks for being you. Good luck in Marine Sciences. If you ever need a few fishy people connections in the States, let me know. We have a world class marine science center right here in Newport. Lots of grad students and cutting edge science.
Oh and plenty of trees, rain and independant type folks. Just your stlye! :yes:

cabobaja - 7-24-2008 at 03:59 PM

Sirenita, you go girl!! I am proud to be a Mexican and American. I am proud my boys are Mexican and American and my wife is Mexican. When you run for the office of the President, you have our vote! We are very proud of you too!!

windgrrl - 7-24-2008 at 04:35 PM

Viva Sirenita!

Don't feed the animals :lol:

and they'll eventually go away.

tripledigitken - 7-24-2008 at 04:50 PM

Can't say that I have ever reached the point that I felt bored with Baja, even when the fishing wasn't any good.

Regarding comparisons with the USA I can pass on a quote from an old veteran of Baja. It's one i'll never forget:

"in Baja if its 90% that's good enough"

If fact alot of the time it never reaches "90%" but you know that's still ok with me.

Ken

shari - 7-24-2008 at 06:30 PM

Memo...for a girl who grew up in a small town in baja, I think Sirenitas english is pretty darn good...she writes eloquent papers, speeches and letters and while her spelling is not perfect, it's pretty good...oh yeah, she probably knows more french than most nomads too. Another cool thing is that she called me sooooo steamed and upset and explained that she wrote that post like 7 times before she finally posted it....revised it and took out all the angry, insulting bits she started with...this shows great restraint, education, understanding, patience and maturity...that's my girl!

DianaT - 7-24-2008 at 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Memo...for a girl who grew up in a small town in baja, I think Sirenitas english is pretty darn good...she writes eloquent papers, speeches and letters and while her spelling is not perfect, it's pretty good...oh yeah, she probably knows more french than most nomads too. Another cool thing is that she called me sooooo steamed and upset and explained that she wrote that post like 7 times before she finally posted it....revised it and took out all the angry, insulting bits she started with...this shows great restraint, education, understanding, patience and maturity...that's my girl!

Her English is quite good. Also, there is a definite difference in writing styles between what is taught in Mexico and Central America, than what is taught in the US and Canada.

Sirena does VERY well with her English and with her message. Don't think she misunderstood the original message at all.

Memo, her response did NOT support your original post, IMHO.

bacquito - 7-24-2008 at 07:07 PM

I think much of what has been said in these comments can best be summed up by saying that while Mexicans admire us they do not want to be like us.

BajaGringo - 7-24-2008 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SiReNiTa
...and i thank my mom for raising me the way she did because of that i am what i am today...

And your mom should be very proud. You remind me a lot of my Olivia who would have been 19 now. I wish you only the very best.

fdt - 7-24-2008 at 08:56 PM

Bravo Sirena, Bravo!!!!!
A darle duro. Siempre pon el ejemplo.

vivaloha - 7-24-2008 at 11:39 PM

Education opens up many doors. Go strongly into your own bright future
Sirenita! I loved reading your enthusiasm and self-determination as you
begin your experience in university!

As far as where this post started, I believe it was something like,
"What Mexico Needs.." I heard a saying once that I think is appropriate here...

"Before criticizing others, inspect yourself"...

If you find Baja to be fatiguing or you are tired of its rugged-ness, well then, just don't
mess with it, go home, and don't worry about the baja..it will survive without your "help"..

Bajafun777 - 7-25-2008 at 01:18 AM

When your biggest worry is just getting the basic needs for your family your joy is your family. Money is not the "Idol God" of those struggling to try and feed, cloth, and love their family. This is true not just in Mexico but also the U.S.A. Grew up on farming camps and lived in more rural small towns than I can count. One thing each family had in common was everyone of them loved everyone in their families and respected their parents.
The U.S.A. is struggling with everyone in their families loving each other, getting along as well as having simple respect for their parents and authority figures. This is due to a our government pushing ithis nonesense that it's ok not to take care of yourself or your family because the government through taxes will. We let a very precious thing get tossed into muddy waters but that muddy puddle can settle making it become clear and good again.
I go to Baja and other parts of Mexico because I can go into the town squares and see many many families enjoying the parks with everyone in their families. I miss that so much in the U.S.A. Now, I know we have many many things in the U.S.A. to hold dear and love but we need to fix some things too. I love enjoying everything about the beaches in Mexico also. I just enjoy watching people being people without needing so many things like we think we need in the U.S.A. I will always love the U.S.A. as I know the Mexicans will always love Mexico. Neither side has a "canned love affair" on this and both of our Countries have some things to work on and fix. It]s just Mexico with its poverty has a mountain not a little hill to climb up to fix theirs. Hopefully, we can "all" work on those things creating problems in our Countries. This can be done with our investments, social involvement, being good examples of being people that care along with doing the right thing without needing someone to be watching us or patting us on the back. Education of our young in Mexico and U.S.A. is the tool that will enable both Countries to have the possibilites to do these things.
I think Shari is part of that spark and Sirenita is the flame to help reach out to help fix some of these problems. I think some use too strong of words in addressing their frustration but I do not think they are "haters." I think they just overexpress that frustration that definately grabs at those wishing and looking for better approaches. However, It is what it is and shall become or change what everyone that really cares tries to make it. "No Hurry, No Worry, Just Fun" leads to "No Fight, Be Happy"------bajafun777

PLEASE!

Lee - 7-25-2008 at 07:26 AM

Edited to prevent my eyes from crossing.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
When your biggest worry is just getting the basic needs for your family your joy is your family. Money is not the "Idol God" of those struggling to try and feed, cloth, and love their family. This is true not just in Mexico but also the U.S.A.

Grew up on farming camps and lived in more rural small towns than I can count. One thing each family had in common was everyone of them loved everyone in their families and respected their parents.

The U.S.A. is struggling with everyone in their families loving each other, getting along as well as having simple respect for their parents and authority figures. This is due to a our government pushing ithis nonesense that it's ok not to take care of yourself or your family because the government through taxes will.

We let a very precious thing get tossed into muddy waters but that muddy puddle can settle making it become clear and good again.

I go to Baja and other parts of Mexico because I can go into the town squares and see many many families enjoying the parks with everyone in their families. I miss that so much in the U.S.A. Now, I know we have many many things in the U.S.A. to hold dear and love but we need to fix some things too.

I love enjoying everything about the beaches in Mexico also. I just enjoy watching people being people without needing so many things like we think we need in the U.S.A. I will always love the U.S.A. as I know the Mexicans will always love Mexico. Neither side has a "canned love affair" on this and both of our Countries have some things to work on and fix.

It]s just Mexico with its poverty has a mountain not a little hill to climb up to fix theirs. Hopefully, we can "all" work on those things creating problems in our Countries. This can be done with our investments, social involvement, being good examples of being people that care along with doing the right thing without needing someone to be watching us or patting us on the back.

Education of our young in Mexico and U.S.A. is the tool that will enable both Countries to have the possibilites to do these things.
I think Shari is part of that spark and Sirenita is the flame to help reach out to help fix some of these problems. I think some use too strong of words in addressing their frustration but I do not think they are "haters."

I think they just overexpress that frustration that definately grabs at those wishing and looking for better approaches. However, It is what it is and shall become or change what everyone that really cares tries to make it. "No Hurry, No Worry, Just Fun" leads to "No Fight, Be Happy"------bajafun777

capn.sharky - 7-25-2008 at 09:45 AM

I like Mexico the way it is. If you want all the fancy stuff, go to Japan. They have toilet seats that are warmed up for you and play music. In Mexico, you are lucky to have a seat on your toilet. Mexico is Mexico---it has its own charm.

oldlady - 7-25-2008 at 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SiReNiTa
but you will have to understand me ....

Eloquently says it all!

Bajafun777 - 7-25-2008 at 11:10 PM

AND tHANK YOU!!!!!!! :biggrin:

Later-------------------bajafun777

SiReNiTa - 7-26-2008 at 05:22 PM

well said baja fun!!
we all know every country has it's own problems and stuff to work out but in my mind the richest people are those of us who come home at the end of the day with a smile on our face knowing that there is going to be people waiting for us with their arms open and that when we open the door and see their face we feel like the richest people in the world even if we only have 50 cents in our pocket...bravo for those of you who know the feeling and even I know that love won't buy food and clothes but hey...it remains the most important and valuable thing in my life and i sure hope it is in everyones!!!
love SiReNiTa!!!!

Skipjack Joe - 7-26-2008 at 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
In Mexico, you are lucky to have a seat on your toilet. Mexico is Mexico---it has its own charm.

There is little charm in sitting on a porcelain toilet. It's cold and uncomfortable. This, however, seems to be pervalent in all of Latin America. Why they remove their toilet seats is beyond comprehension. Initially I thought you were expected to perch over the thing until one irate hotel manager knocked on my door and reprimanded me for it (the shoes had left scuff marks). No, I was supposed to sit on that cold white ring I was told. bummer.

Skeet/Loreto - 7-27-2008 at 03:13 AM

Baajafun777

Avery good Post!, One of the best I have seen.

In the Past few months since I left Loreto and ended up in my Roots in the Texas Panhandle, I have observed the demise of the Small Towns, the moving of the Young to the Cities and places of commerce.
The breaking up of the Families,both the States and Mexico has cause many Problems.

Love Conquers All:
A Friend in Need is a Friend In Deed;
For those youngones who have been seperated from their Families, Please try to keep some contact,and if unable too, make sure you have some Friends around.

We Will Survive, It will be difficult for both of our Countries!

"Faith, Hope, and Charity!!

Skeet/Loreto

shari - 7-27-2008 at 07:58 AM

Since we are on the topic of poddies...I have a little insight into why outhouses are prevalent here. Since there is no sewage system here because of the law that nothing can be dumped into the ocean..because of the healthy abalone beds here, most folks just have an outhouse...why?
Well, we just had a septic tank built and it cost 13,000 pesos!!! which is more than a piece of land costs, or a car...then another 1,500 for a toilet!
Toilet paper really screws up the type of septic tanks they build here so ya need to get with the program and remember to put it in the basket.

From what I understand, public toilets don't have seats as they get broken with people standing on them...and are harder to clean and less sanitary.

So...if you are a normal mexican family and by chance you had this kind of dinero...what would you do? Buy a lot or pee inside? It's often a question of priorities...hmm.... a truck or a bathroom? send my kid to college or a bathroom? they are prohibitively expensive and not a necessity but a luxury.

When I married Juan and came to live here...we only had an outhouse...no running water...questionable power...but man oh man...a million dollar location. Little by little we have been able to improve our casa. Remember, there is no credit here...heck hardly anyone has a bank account...sohow the heck are they gonna build a bathroom which all told costs about your whole season's salary???
You get used to an outhouse...and bucket showers...and if you cant...well, then villages in baja are not for you.

Skip_Mac - 7-27-2008 at 07:55 PM

Thanks for the perspective Sheri and Sirena. I have had a (previous) career searching old gold in old mining districts for new gold resources. While exploring.. it was an extra spark to look at the outhouses. Many were destroyed by artifact hunters, but the most remote were intact. I have pictures of one hole outhouses with ship portholes installed, 2, 3, 4 AND many holers.. but with incredible views of 10,000 foot plus snow covered mountains in the background. Not fun to use if your only toilet paper is snow and you are wearing long underwear and two outer layers.
Can anyone doubt that I prefer the Baja version, even if I have to check for scorpions..

The only sad part is the toilet paper fluttering from the cactus near the tourist impacted areas. That was not a problem in 1974. Progress! Sad, but Baja survuves.

gibson - 7-27-2008 at 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

There is little charm in sitting on a porcelain toilet. It's cold and uncomfortable. This, however, seems to be pervalent in all of Latin America. Why they remove their toilet seats is beyond comprehension. Initially I thought you were expected to perch over the thing until one irate hotel manager knocked on my door and reprimanded me for it (the shoes had left scuff marks). No, I was supposed to sit on that cold white ring I was told. bummer.

ooohh waaaaaaaaaaa.

Ah, yes good ole

Bajajack - 7-27-2008 at 08:48 PM

baja, one of the few places left on this earth where, if you claim poverty and ignorance you can crap in the yard and it's perfectly acceptable. :lol:

CaboRon - 7-28-2008 at 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
baja, one of the few places left on this earth where, if you claim poverty and ignorance you can crap in the yard and it's perfectly acceptable. :lol:

It's Tradition :lol: