BajaNomad - Border Patrol agent shoots man at US-Mexico line

Border Patrol agent shoots man at US-Mexico line

Bajajack - 8-13-2008 at 07:09 PM

Border Patrol agent shoots man at US-Mexico line

By ELLIOT SPAGAT – 49 minutes ago

SAN DIEGO (AP) — A U.S. Border Patrol agent shot and wounded a man as agents clashed with a group of rock-throwing assailants, marking the latest confrontation along a violent stretch of the U.S.-Mexico border, authorities said Wednesday.

Edgar Israel Ortega Chavez was shot Tuesday night in his left buttocks and was in stable condition, according to a spokesman for Hospital General in Tijuana who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the matter.

Ortega, 22, was found by Mexican authorities on a dirt bank above the spot where the border crosses the dry, concrete-lined Tijuana River basin, Tijuana police said in a news release.

San Diego police said the shooter was a 10-year Border Patrol veteran but did not release his name.

The Border Patrol said the agent feared getting struck by a rock, but the shooting drew swift criticism from Mexican authorities.

"This incident is of great concern to the government of Mexico," said Remedios Gomez Arnau, the consul general in San Diego. "Under no circumstances would it be justified to shoot lethal or non-lethal objects to the Mexican side of the border."

The shooting occurred in an area where the U.S. government's border fence parts from the legal boundary, leaving the border marked only by a yellow stripe painted across the concrete-lined riverbed.

There were conflicting accounts about what happened.

People who said they witnessed the shooting told The Associated Press that more than a dozen people gathered on Mexican soil to plan an illegal crossing to the U.S., and threw rocks to distract agents. They said Border Patrol agents tried to disperse the crowd with pepper spray bullets.

Jose Maria Martinez, who was with the group, said one agent exchanged his pepper ball launcher for a rifle. The agent then fired three shots from a concrete post that marks the official border, Martinez said.

"'You want a fight? You want a war? Let's do it,'" Martinez, 52, quoted the agent as saying. "And pow! He got him right away."

A Border Patrol spokesman, Jason Rodgers, declined to comment on Martinez's allegation and said the investigation was ongoing. He stressed that agents are well-trained and questioned the credibility of the Mexican witnesses, many of whom were trying to get into the country illegally.

Another Border Patrol spokesman, Daryl Reed, said the agent fired his gun on U.S. soil after seeing Ortega wielding a softball-sized rock on Mexican soil. He said the group hurled rocks at agents from inside the U.S., but returned to Mexico after the Border Patrol used tear gas and pepper projectiles.

"This agent thought his life was in danger or that his fellow agents' lives were in danger, so he responded," Reed said. "(A rock) is a deadly weapon."

San Diego police Lt. Terry McManus said the confrontation began when the group hurled rocks and one person failed in an attempt to climb over a fence just inside the U.S.

The shooting is the latest confrontation near the bustling San Ysidro crossing.

Border Patrol agents routinely get rocks, bottles and bricks thrown at them from people in Tijuana hoping to distract the agents long enough to jump the fence.

The Border Patrol began firing tear gas and high-impact pepper balls into Mexico last year in response to what it said was an alarming increase in attacks. San Diego-area agents have been attacked more than 330 times since October, compared with 254 times for the previous 12-month period, according to Reed.

___

CaboRon - 8-13-2008 at 07:38 PM

If the Mexican gov't would police the border these incidents would not happen.....

The Mexican gov't not only allows this ,, but indeed encourages outlaw behavior by it's citizens ...

These individuals were preparing to violate US soverenty using force ....

Force should be used against them ....

CaboRon

BAJACAT - 8-13-2008 at 08:17 PM

A few inches to the right it would it be a "BULLSEYE"..

Woooosh - 8-13-2008 at 08:45 PM

He got shot in the butt for heaving a 5-10 pound chunk of concrete over the border fence at an agent- seems fair. Isn't that what Russia woould call a measured response?

[The Border Patrol began firing tear gas and high-impact pepper balls into Mexico last year in response to what it said was an alarming increase in attacks. San Diego-area agents have been attacked more than 330 times since October, compared with 254 times for the previous 12-month period, according to Reed.]

[Edited on 8-14-2008 by Woooosh]

aha baja - 8-14-2008 at 12:58 AM

People don't want to rush in to russia

[Edited on 01-19-2004 by aha baja]

jodiego - 8-14-2008 at 07:11 AM

Here's a novel approach. Move far enough away so that the rocks can't hit you. Oh, but I guess that would be considered "retreating"!

CaboRon - 8-14-2008 at 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jodiego
Here's a novel approach. Move far enough away so that the rocks can't hit you. Oh, but I guess that would be considered "retreating"!

Our guys were on US soil .....

Why should they back off ....

And for your information the assailants started this while they were on US soil...

Don't bring a rock to a gun fight :lol:

CaboRon

[Edited on 8-14-2008 by CaboRon]

Bajaboy - 8-14-2008 at 07:51 AM

Go throw some rocks at your local police officer and see what happens or anyone carrying a gun for that matter. I'm not sympathetic at all.

Zac

jodiego - 8-14-2008 at 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Go throw some rocks at your local police officer and see what happens or anyone carrying a gun for that matter. I'm not sympathetic at all.

Zac

I didn't say you were.

Barry A. - 8-14-2008 at 10:51 AM

As per their training, it sounds to me like the BP Agent was totally justified. No LE person (or anybody) can be expected to just accept life-threatening or injurious behavior from assailants. The actions by the Mexicanos was foolish (to say the least)-----actions produce consequences, and in this case permanent solutions.

The end.

Barry

(edited to correct a spelling error, but there may be more)

[Edited on 8-14-2008 by Barry A.]

ELINVESTIG8R - 8-14-2008 at 11:09 AM

The Mexicans throwing rocks at the U.S. Border Patrol Agents know that they can kill someone if they hit them. Rocks are a form of deadly force. If these thugs do not want deadly force used upon them they need to stop their deadly behavior. Mexico needs to patrol the spots where these thugs hang out so they don't throw rocks. If the Mexican communities do not want bullets or pepper spray in their communities they need to notify the Mexican authorities so they can move in and put a stop to the violence against the agents. I have no sympathy for people who are injured or kill when trying to hurt law enforcement people in the performance of their duties. Period!

Cypress - 8-14-2008 at 11:23 AM

No sympathy. :yes:

Should have popped the dude right between the running lights. He wouldn't return to throw any more rocks or maybe upgrade to a gun.

loki - 8-14-2008 at 06:30 PM

The dudes lucky the officer was a good shot and hit him where he aimed. How much more of this cross border b$ are we going to put up with.
The Mexicans need to patrol their side of the line. Try standing on the US side and throw rocks at the Mexican police . The SD county guys would arrest you on the spot.

Alex - 8-14-2008 at 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

The Mexican gov't not only allows this ,, but indeed encourages outlaw behavior by it's citizens ...

CaboRon

sorry to have to say this but get a life

loki - 8-14-2008 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

I agree with Ron that the Mexican Government does like the unrest on the northern border as it keeps the focus away from what a lousy job they do in running the country.
From handing out maps to the trails into the states to turning a blind eye to the coyotes that prey on the border runners.They are at fault here.

sorry to have to say this but get a life

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by loki]

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by loki]

tsgarcia69 - 8-14-2008 at 10:22 PM

Let me tell you guys what the "real deal" is on the Mexican side of the border, so you can better understand why things are the way they are. First of all, every inch of that border on the Mexican side is "owned" be one group of coyotes or another. They pay good money to the local cops to leave them alone and protect their territory. For the cops, this is just a source of additional income.

They don't even view this as something illegal. To Americans, illegal immigration is a legal problem. To Mexicans, it is a human rights issue. Mexicans believe it is their "right" to go where the money is.

It took one full hour after the Border Patrol shot that kid in the butt for the TJ police to show up. One full hour. What do you think the cops were doing during that hour? They were probably trying to get ahold of the compa who had the coyote concession in the area to see if this was something they should get involved with.

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

The Mexican gov't not only allows this ,, but indeed encourages outlaw behavior by it's citizens ...

CaboRon

sorry to have to say this but get a life

Well Alex,

Do you want to explaine your arcane comment ??

Or are you just taking a shot at me personally .

How about posting a coherent thought ,

Or is that beyond your abilities ...

And the next time you are sorry to say something why don't you just shut your trap before you disclose what a fool you are.

CaboRon

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by CaboRon]

loki - 8-15-2008 at 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tsgarcia69
Let me tell you guys what the "real deal" is on the Mexican side of the border, so you can better understand why things are the way they are. First of all, every inch of that border on the Mexican side is "owned" be one group of coyotes or another. They pay good money to the local cops to leave them alone and protect their territory. For the cops, this is just a source of additional income.

They don't even view this as something illegal. To Americans, illegal immigration is a legal problem. To Mexicans, it is a human rights issue. Mexicans believe it is their "right" to go where the money is.

It took one full hour after the Border Patrol shot that kid in the butt for the TJ police to show up. One full hour. What do you think the cops were doing during that hour? They were probably trying to get ahold of the compa who had the coyote concession in the area to see if this was something they should get involved with.

Oh oh,

Now get ready to be pounced upon by the keepers of truth here on Nomad for telling it like it is at the border.
They will turn this into a anti-american rant about how mean,nasty and darkhearted our border patrol people are. They will also tell you that these rock throwing youth are just acting out because of poverty and a lack of education.
They will also say that its because of the american thirst for big oil and our business at any cost attitude that is causing the unrest at the border.
Perhaps some skateboard parks built by the US taxpayers on the Mexican side of the border would get these youths in the right direction. :lol:

ELINVESTIG8R - 8-15-2008 at 05:56 AM

I see one of these

in the very near future because of one of these

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 06:16 AM

Quote:

Thank's for the information ....

I didn't realize it was a formal criminal enterprize ...

Guess it shouldn't surprise me ....

Always felt the TJ police are as dirty as what is in the sewer.

CaboRon

loki - 8-15-2008 at 06:16 AM

Just thinking out loud which is still allowed the last time I checked.

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by loki
Just thinking out loud which is still allowed the last time I checked.

Hard to tell anymore :lol:

CaboRon

jodiego - 8-15-2008 at 07:37 AM

As I seem to be the only voice of reason on this thread, I thought I would just let it go on without any more comments. Then I read an editorial in the San Diego Union this morning on this very subject. They brought up some good points that all of you have mentioned regarding mexican authorities and their lack of caring and/or response time to incidents at the border. But in no way did they condone the use of a gun, stating that they should only be used "only as a last resort". Please read the entire editorial if you are able. As I read through the comments on this thread I sense some real hatred. Is it directed towards mexicans in general, mexicans who throw rocks, or mexicans who are trying to enter this country illegally, or any combination thereof. Whichever it is, it is very disturbing, especially coming from Baja Nomads. My comment about the border patrol retreating to avoid the rocks was met with a rather juvenile comment that we were on our property and they started it, so we were well within our rights to shoot a gun at them. Just to reiterate my point one more time....how far is a person able to throw a rock the size of a softball or a piece of concrete weighing 5-10 lbs? Common sense regarding the use of guns in any situation would spare a lot of pain and heartache for all involved.

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jodiego
As I seem to be the only voice of reason on this thread, I thought I would just let it go on without any more comments. Then I read an editorial in the San Diego Union this morning on this very subject. They brought up some good points that all of you have mentioned regarding mexican authorities and their lack of caring and/or response time to incidents at the border. But in no way did they condone the use of a gun, stating that they should only be used "only as a last resort". Please read the entire editorial if you are able. As I read through the comments on this thread I sense some real hatred. Is it directed towards mexicans in general, mexicans who throw rocks, or mexicans who are trying to enter this country illegally, or any combination thereof. Whichever it is, it is very disturbing, especially coming from Baja Nomads. My comment about the border patrol retreating to avoid the rocks was met with a rather juvenile comment that we were on our property and they started it, so we were well within our rights to shoot a gun at them. Just to reiterate my point one more time....how far is a person able to throw a rock the size of a softball or a piece of concrete weighing 5-10 lbs? Common sense regarding the use of guns in any situation would spare a lot of pain and heartache for all involved.

Where do you draw the line ....

A weapon is a weapon .....

Criminal behavior will not be tolorated on US soverign soil...

Try throwing rocks at Mexican Police , and let's see what they do ....

Oh, what they do best !! Demand Cash :lol:

CaboRon

when does "last resort" begin

woody with a view - 8-15-2008 at 08:02 AM

as the rock is in the air or as it bounces off YOUR head? you can play monday morning QB all day long, but i would rather have the US agents deciding when enough is enough than ANY other cop with a gun, anywhere in the world. i think our guys are the most hard working, decent cops on the planet, even as you all love to sit here and call them criminals.

maybe we should just fire them all and let whoever wants to come across do so. like 150 years ago? yeah, that'll be cool. then instead of going to baja for vacation the canucks will just have to cross their southern border.

wow, i can't see any downside...... :?:

get a spine people and stand behind the men and women who are dodging ROCKS just to try to earn a living....

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by woody in ob]

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
as the rock is in the air or as it bounces off YOUR head? you can play monday morning QB all day long, but i would rather have the US agents deciding when enough is enough than ANY other cop with a gun, anywhere in the world. i think our guys are the most hard working, decent cops on the planet, even as you all love to sit here and call them criminals.

maybe we should just fire them all and let whoever wants to come across do so. like 150 years ago? yeah, that'll be cool. then instead of going to baja for vacation the canucks will just have to cross their southern border.

wow, i can't see any downside...... :?:

get a spine people and stand behind the men and women who are dodging ROCKS just to try to earn a living....

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by woody in ob]

loki - 8-15-2008 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

You are the voice of reason. Give us a break.
You are an apologist for all that is wrong in Baja and will tell us the sky is red if you think that it furthers your position.
You read a editorial in the SD. paper and tell us its gospel in regards to force.
I will tell you what a reasonable amount of force is. Whatever the US authorities deems reasonable force.

Go find a protest parade to join as the rest of the VOICE OF REASON CROWD are waiting for you.

k-rico - 8-15-2008 at 08:17 AM

Quote:

I'm with you jodiego, for sure the shooting, justified or not, only worsens the situation. It's also true that there are too many people, here and elsewhere, willing to attribute the bad behavior of some to the whole society. I think it's called prejudice (opinions formed before sufficent knowledge).

jodiego - 8-15-2008 at 08:45 AM

You don't know all the facts and I don't know all the facts. All I do know is that you all are quick to pull the trigger. Why is that?

Bajaboy - 8-15-2008 at 08:46 AM

Who are you to tell me what I feel about any race? And what test did you pass to make you the voice of reason? I suggested you try throwing a rock at any official with a gun and see what happens? I'd like to see you reason then.

You're right about throwing rocks probably don't equate to being shot. But, it could happen and it did happen. So I'd reason it's probably not a good idea to throw rocks at the BP or you might get shot.

I encourage you to state your feelings and opinions regarding the situation...it makes for good discussion, debate, and thought. But please don't suggest that I hate anyone or that you are the only person of reason.

In the name of open debate, please continue the discussion.

Zac

Quote:

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jodiego
You don't know all the facts and I don't know all the facts. All I do know is that you all are quick to pull the trigger. Why is that?

Because you just bring out the best in people :lol:

Keep up the obfuscation :lol:

CaboRon

tripledigitken - 8-15-2008 at 09:25 AM

A rock weighing as much as 5#'s hitting your head is deadly force. Those throwing the rocks know the targets are armed. Deadly force meets deadly force.

The Border Patrol is doing their job, the thugs throwing the rocks are just that......... thugs.

Now if some want to take this analysis and project that I and others hate all Mexicans and am prejudiced, it shows your ignorance.

Ken

ELINVESTIG8R - 8-15-2008 at 09:26 AM

Admittedly I do not know the rules and regulations of the U.S. Border Patrol but I am pretty sure they are not told to run away when confronted with deadly force. Deadly force is deadly force whether it comes from a rock a firearm or a knife, etc. The Border Patrol is an authorized law enforcement body to protect the borders of the United States of America. They are not there to be murdered by criminal elements coming from Mexico or other countries that have infiltrated Mexico. As far as I am concerned if you try to injure or kill a border agent you deserve what you get. The Mexican government needs to step up to the plate and start patrolling their side of the border to stop these acts of violence.

k-rico - 8-15-2008 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
A rock weighing as much as 5#'s hitting your head is deadly force. Those throwing the rocks know the targets are armed. Deadly force meets deadly force.

The Border Patrol is doing their job, the thugs throwing the rocks are just that......... thugs.

Now if some want to take this analysis and project that I and others hate all Mexicans and am prejudiced, it shows your ignorance.

Ken

I don't see anything prejudicial in your statement.

When is enough enough?

Lee - 8-15-2008 at 09:55 AM

There are so many levels going on here with each capable of having it's own thread.

I think the majority of people on both sides think it's not good to provoke law enforcement -- those wearing guns and badges. It would seem that rock throwers are on notice -- throw rocks get shot.

There is definitely (pick a word) anger, rage, hatred, frustration, on the part of ''Americans'' who think 12 million illegals is enough and a more ''proactive attitude'' is in order. It's obvious that no one in government has taken the ''immigration'' problem seriously enough.

There are more levels, aren't there?

A Difficult, perhaps impossible, Situation

MrBillM - 8-15-2008 at 10:30 AM

Politcal considerations have created an atmosphere that the Mexican Outlaws daily take advantage of. The Rules of Engagement have to be extemely frustrating to the vast majority of conscientious Officers. What's unusual and unfortunate about this incident is that it is so rare. Every day and night these agents are bombarded and rarely fight back knowing that they are taking the chance their reaction and the resulting escalation will impact them negatively.

Just as the police in blighted urban areas develop a hostile and callous attitude towards those they are in combat with daily, there is no doubt the same thing happens with these officers to an unknown extent. Couple the politics with the frustration in the ranks and the results aren't good. The amazing self-control (so far) is mostly a result of their knowing one mistake can end their career and (possibly) put them in prison along with Ramos and Campean.

Many years ago (early 80s), I was eating at a restaurant in El Centro and the booth next to me was occupied by four Border Patrol agents. The banter between them describing some of their latest encounters and their attitude towards those they encountered, battled and arrested would have validated the worst stereotypes imagined by the ACLU types. Perhaps, they were simply trying to out-boast one another, but I wondered later (to my wife) how mainstream their attitude was among the field troops.

Cypress - 8-15-2008 at 10:32 AM

A country that can put a man on the moon, yet is unable to control it's borders? :?:

Come on, isn't there something wrong with that picture? The shootings and rock throwings are just distractions.

The border will remain porous. :lol:

The border agents and the illegals will play hide-and-seek. :lol:

People on both sides of the border will continue to reap the benefits. It's not all bad, it's not all good, but it is reality. :spingrin:

oxxo - 8-15-2008 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jodiego
As I read through the comments on this thread I sense some real hatred. Is it directed towards mexicans in general, mexicans who throw rocks, or mexicans who are trying to enter this country illegally, or any combination thereof. Whichever it is, it is very disturbing, especially coming from Baja Nomads.

jodiego, your use of the word "hatred" is both inflammatory and over-reaching. What you sense in these comments is "frustration", frustration with both the Mexican and American governments to come up with a comprehensive solution to illegal immigration that is both fair and equitable to everyone. What that solution is, I don't know. However, if you will elect me to be your next President of the United States, I will find a solution pronto, I guarantee it.......I promise......send money!

Cypress - 8-15-2008 at 11:31 AM

jodiego. You know, if your're looking for something(hatred etc.), you'll be able to find it, but it might be in your own mind. :no:

You'll find what you seek, if you look hard enough. :biggrin:

jodiego - 8-15-2008 at 12:40 PM

Whew, this is a lot to take in. My use of the word "hatred" is just a gut feeling I get from reading the words that are typed on this thread. Using a gun to quell a disturbance has to involve something beyond justice. Whatever it is, it makes me uncomfortable enough to express my feelings on the subject. I would love to continue this discussion, no matter how circular it is going, but I'm going to be away from a computer for 2 weeks. I really do wish you all the best.

PS......Ron, I love that Baja Sur flag you have

tsgarcia69 - 8-15-2008 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jodiego
My comment about the border patrol retreating to avoid the rocks was met with a rather juvenile comment that we were on our property and they started it, so we were well within our rights to shoot a gun at them. Just to reiterate my point one more time....how far is a person able to throw a rock the size of a softball or a piece of concrete weighing 5-10 lbs? Common sense regarding the use of guns in any situation would spare a lot of pain and heartache for all involved.

OK, take a look at this video (it is not pretty). I want your honest opinion, jodiego. Should the border patrolman just stood there and taken the rock in the head, or should he have shot the guy?

Also, please explain to all of us precisely how you would have diffused the situation shown in the video.

http://vid10.photobucket.com/albums/a141/XicanoPwr/?action=v...

[Edited on 8-16-2008 by tsgarcia69]

woody with a view - 8-15-2008 at 03:06 PM

after watching the video all i can say is....

it seems that the guy who got shot was from a place where the gene pool was so shallow that it dried up every summer......

"support your local border patrol agent" or shut the **** up.

these guys don't deserve to be put into these life changing events. nobody does. not even the guy who made the ultimate mistake. but it was HIS mistake. it's a rough world out there. :!:

CaboRon - 8-15-2008 at 03:50 PM

tsgarcia,

Couldn't get your video link to link ..

Just got a photobucket sign in page.

CaboRon

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by CaboRon]

Pescador - 8-15-2008 at 06:07 PM

So who is upset about the guy getting shot in the butt? The mexican law enforcement? Is this the same mexican law enforcement who had the guy in jail that ran over and killed the US Border guard and then they let him go free?

CaboRon - 8-16-2008 at 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
So who is upset about the guy getting shot in the butt? The mexican law enforcement? Is this the same mexican law enforcement who had the guy in jail that ran over and killed the US Border guard and then they let him go free?

It appears to be in the minds of a few Nomads who tend to romantasize everything about La Baja to the point where they are not in touch with reality.

A little pragmatism is in order here ...

CaboRon

palmeto99 - 8-16-2008 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tsgarcia69

Quote:

As Custer said some time ago. "Spare the rifle and spoil the indian"

I think a more strong stance is warranted with cross border arrests should that be required because of Mexicos inability to police their own state. :cool:

flyfishinPam - 8-17-2008 at 06:38 AM

the video shows a guy throwing something at close range at a BP agent. was this on US soil? sorry but I think the agent was justified in shooting the idiot.

perhaps Mexico cannot police its own state but obviously either can the USA. evidence of this is the TENS OF MILLIONS of ILLEGAL ALIENS (forget the "undocumented immigrant" pc crap) residing and working within the USA right now and right under everyone's noses in plain view. i would like to see a real border fence, maybe an electric one that actually works, the exodus of Mexicans into the US is insane for both countries.

how are things now for the illegals these days with a slowdown in the economy? i'm donw here so not in the know just curious. i know there's a ton of work here and not enough folks to fill all the positions.

Osprey - 8-17-2008 at 07:33 AM

I'm a white geezer. I have no plug. Believe me, I looked.

palmeto99 - 8-17-2008 at 07:40 AM

You are being unfair to the leaders of the free world,captains of industry,rock stars(rolling stones) and me with your anti white haired old man bias.
Lucky for us there are many young men happy to evolve into us just so they can be one of the above. :cool: