BajaNomad

very sad video on Sea Of Cortez reefs

BornFisher - 8-17-2008 at 08:13 AM

found this on "Bloodydecks" web site-----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-eWlzy5Pko

Cypress - 8-17-2008 at 09:31 AM

BornFisher, Thanks for the video. It's all too true.:no:

mariposajim - 8-17-2008 at 09:39 AM

Sad, but true. We on the US west coast have lost our salmon stocks. The MLPAs in California will help in the long run.
Jim

Packoderm - 8-17-2008 at 09:48 AM

Nobody can do anything about it because the complaining from the suspended harvests would be worse than the effects of the lost species. Nobody complains once it's gone. Could you imagine the reaction that would have been generated by the action required to have saved the fish stocks on the northern section of the Eastern coast? We just have to let it all go.

Osprey - 8-17-2008 at 10:54 AM

Fisher, thanks for digging that up. It can be a reminder of just how many Seas of Cortez there are. Skeet sees huge schools of pelagic fish on the top two feet and reckons the fishing is better than ever -- it is for him and those lucky enough to be right place, right time, right gear when they're hungry. Skeet cannot see the other Sea of Cortez, the bottom two feet fished by visiting gringos who once caught "all they wanted" with hook and line and lure and bait. That's where the fights start -- for them the fishery has gone to hell steadily -- no one could fail to recognize the decline and demise of an eco system once brimming with life of all kinds and shapes and sizes. Looks like us "old trollers" might be the last to feel things finally slipping away forever.

CaboRon - 8-17-2008 at 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
We just have to let it all go.


Are you NUTS ??

What a defeatest attitude .....

People can make a difference ....

And believe me, a lot of people have complained about the depletion of our fish stocks ....

You are a negative person ....

CAboRon

Packoderm - 8-17-2008 at 02:42 PM

"You are a negative person ...."

I'm not usually negative in general. However, I'm not optimistic in this case. Sure, something could be done, but it will not. In cases like this, we seem to need to learn things the hard way after the fact when it is too late - especially if there are financial interests at stake. Please don't misconstrue my defeatism for lack of concern. I feel the same way about human overpopulation and other such issues.

Vince - 8-17-2008 at 02:44 PM

Very sad indeed. Over the years I've watched the same thing happen to Bahia Conception which is also supposedly protected from gill nets. I've sent this video to many people, but the politicians are the ones that should see it.

Cypress - 8-17-2008 at 02:55 PM

Vince, Yea, it's not good. The politicians would all agree that something needs to be done. They'd continue to talk the issue to death. In all honesty, politicians have always been long on talk, short on action.:no:

ArvadaGeorge - 8-17-2008 at 04:24 PM

Just an idea. Do you think these fisher men are working the reefs because the big fish they use to catch, out in the Sea of Cortez are gone? The long liners with their long nets took them all?

Don Alley - 8-17-2008 at 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArvadaGeorge
Just an idea. Do you think these fisher men are working the reefs because the big fish they use to catch, out in the Sea of Cortez are gone? The long liners with their long nets took them all?


Offshore fishing mostly requires bigger boats. Dorado and billfish are, in theory, protected from commercial harvest, leaving mostly tuna and sharks. Shark populations are depleted, and tuna fishing requires large seiners.

The inshore gillnets require less time and fuel; some nets are set by fishermen from fishcamps on the islands. You can visit a hut at such a camp on Isla Carmen complete with piled up gillnets, despite being in a marine park. On the peninsula shore, gillnets can be set with very little fuel. One guy used to set a net along a pier at Nopolo without even needing a boat before a storm destroyed the pier.

And long liners are not net fishers. They use long monofilament lines with many baited hooks. Panga long lines may be a few miles long, and larger commercial boats may use longlines in excess of 50 miles long. Recent proposed changes in Mexican fishing laws may lift restrictions on longlining and allow more longlines, closer to shore, and their capture of dorado and billfish.

The relatively new boss of the Loreto Marine Park has expressed concern with the nets and fish camps, and a new management plan may be in the works. I have no idea whether to be optimistic or cynical.

elgatoloco - 8-17-2008 at 11:12 PM

Sad to watch that video :(

A few years back we were camped at Requeson and watched a couple of guys launch a panga from the beach and paddle it out because it had no motor. They went just a few hundred feet out from the 'island' and set a net. The next morning they paddled back out and came back with 15-20 small rays. I watched with binoculars from down the beach as they cut off the ends of the wings and then used a tin can they cut in half to punch out 'scallops' which one of them later that afternoon tried to sell me.

It was obvious that these particular individuals were trying to stay alive and feed their families but it was hard to witness. At one point we actually talked about going out the next night and finding the net and cutting it up.

rpleger - 8-18-2008 at 06:22 AM

I have forwarded the video to all my fishing buddies...thank you for posting

805gregg - 8-18-2008 at 07:52 AM

A few years back were were in B of LA fishing in Aug. It was too hot so we went snorkleing, we came across area on Isla la Ventana that had been stripped clean of oysters, not one left, this was a large area. We talked to a Sailboart anchored near and found out that the day before a couple of Mex divers had worked the area, leaving not one survivor to replenish the stock. How long can any species last with this kind of onslought?

wilderone - 8-18-2008 at 09:02 AM

Nobody can do anything about it
We just have to let it all go

THE REAL CRIME IS THAT PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. AND DON'T GIVE ME "IT'S THEIR COUNTRY" BS - THE FISH, THE REEFS, THE HEALTH OF OUR PLANET THAT SUSTAINS US, BELONGS TO EVERYONE AND IT'S EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE OUR PLANET - WHICH IS OUR HOME - STAYS VIABLE. YOU CAN DO SOMETHING. WHY DON'T YOU DO IT? HOW DID THE ISLANDS OFF LA PAZ BECOME PROTECTED? BECAUSE NORTHAMERICAN-BASED CONSERVATION ORGANIZATIONS BOUGHT IT. YES - MONEY FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD - FROM INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER WHO SUPPORT THOSE ORGANIZATIONS. THIS VIDEO SHOULD MAKE YOU ALL ILL - IT IS A TESTAMENT TO THE IGNORANCE OF THOSE WHO DESTROY - AND DON'T GIVE ME "FEED THEIR FAMILIES" BS. HOW SHORTSIGHTED AND STUPID DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO DESTROY THE VERY THING THAT YOU DEPEND ON TO LIVE? IF THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO SEE THE VIDEO, THEN SEND IT TO THEM. SEND IT TO 1,000 PEOPLE WHO CAN OR SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. JOIN A CONSERVATION GROUP WHO DOES DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SHOW UP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Don Alley - 8-18-2008 at 09:50 AM

Seawatch also has videos in Spanish:


http://www.seawatch.org/video/play_movie?m=tesoro_sin_protec...


http://www.seawatch.org/video/play_movie?m=redes_que_matan.a...


http://www.seawatch.org/video/play_movie?m=mar_en_agonia.asx

tsgarcia69 - 8-18-2008 at 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
AND DON'T GIVE ME "FEED THEIR FAMILIES" BS. HOW SHORTSIGHTED AND STUPID DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO DESTROY THE VERY THING THAT YOU DEPEND ON TO LIVE?


It's easy to be indignant when your belly is full. But when you live in a poor country and all you can muster to eat each day is 1,000 calories when your body need 2,000, your view of the world gets very "shortsighted"; like in "where's my next meal?"

Remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs? After breathing comes eating. Conservation isn't even on the list of needs. This problem can't be fixed because Mexico is too poor. If you want the overfishing problem to go away, you need to raise the standard of living in Mexico.

Mexitron - 8-18-2008 at 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
Nobody can do anything about it because the complaining from the suspended harvests would be worse than the effects of the lost species. Nobody complains once it's gone. Could you imagine the reaction that would have been generated by the action required to have saved the fish stocks on the northern section of the Eastern coast? We just have to let it all go.


The sardine industry in Monterey early last century collapsed when they'd overfished the species. The sardines did come back after a while...will that be the case in Loreto?

Cypress - 8-18-2008 at 11:55 AM

If overfishing is the only reason for the decline, the fisheries can and in most cases will rebound when given a chance.:) Each species is different of course and has certain unique requirements, some of which we may or may not even be aware of.:)

Don Alley - 8-18-2008 at 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tsgarcia69


It's easy to be indignant when your belly is full. But when you live in a poor country and all you can muster to eat each day is 1,000 calories when your body need 2,000, your view of the world gets very "shortsighted"; like in "where's my next meal?"

Remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs? After breathing comes eating. Conservation isn't even on the list of needs. This problem can't be fixed because Mexico is too poor. If you want the overfishing problem to go away, you need to raise the standard of living in Mexico.


Nonsense.

The standard of living there has risen dramatically recently, and there are help wanted signs all over town. So much work that they are importing workers from the mainland.

The idea that these people MUST devastate the fishery to eat is just plain ignorant. They are doing it to sell to the fish markets for cash. These fisheries didn't exist for the first 250+ years people have lived there, they came after the highway.

"all you can muster to eat each day is 1,000 calories when your body need 2,000" No. It's not for calories, it's for money.

And the equivalent of eating one's seed corn does not reduce hunger, but increases hunger. Talk to the people in Loreto who do not have boats. That's most of them. Ask them how much fish they eat. Cabrilla, pargo... they cost more than beef now. They talk of days when they could get their meals right off the shore in front of town, and be picky about what they took, but those days are long gone. Overfishing for export and profit is lowering the standard of living and increasing the local price of food.

What's happening to the reefs is inexcusable. So what's next, defend the poor meth makers and dealers? They need to sell drugs to feed their families?

Governments have responsibilities to manage the commons and the government is not doing that. Increasingly, people-Mexican and foreign-are demanding that government act.

[Edited on 8-18-2008 by Don Alley]

Cypress - 8-18-2008 at 01:26 PM

Don Alley,:o A fisherman speaks! :)That's what I'd call "telling it like it is". :) You just cut through the BS and got down to the facts. :) I respect your wisdom and honesty.:) Thanks.

Iflyfish - 8-18-2008 at 02:32 PM

Greed is human and there needs to be some way of interfering with it or this is what happens. There is a greater good that requires attention.

Human beings are genocidal and will, without some limits and sanctions over use and destroy any enviornment they occupy.

Even the mythical Native Americans occupied a place till it was used up and then moved or disappeared. There simply was enough territory till the white man encroached to support this way of living.

The Haida slaved all the way from the Queen Charlotte Islands to San Francisco Bay. Human beings are not very idealistic, or altruistic, never have been and never will be. History repeats itself here in Baja. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. This is not patronization, it is a truism.

Maintainance of the public wheel is all of our responsibility. To the degree that we look aside, or in one of the posts above actually support this sort of short sighted exploitation, we carry the cargo for it.

Iflyfishandamdeeplysaddenedbythisvideo

tsgarcia69 - 8-18-2008 at 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
Nonsense.

The standard of living there has risen dramatically recently, and there are help wanted signs all over town. So much work that they are importing workers from the mainland.

The idea that these people MUST devastate the fishery to eat is just plain ignorant. They are doing it to sell to the fish markets for cash.


Hey, Don it's really good to know that the standard of living has risen. However, I must point out that saying that something has risen is a relativistic term, not an absolute term. Poverty is more of an absolute concept. It's kind of like saying it has gotten warmer when the temperature rises from -10 degrees to -5 degrees. It is true, but it is still cold. If you would care to point out some facts to make your point, it would be helpful. Let me point out some facts about Mexico that you may not be aware of:

The bottom 40% of the population share only 11% of the wealth and are considered to live below the Mexican poverty line. The Mexican standard of living is way below the US or Europe. There is little or no state welfare and no unemployment benefits. Mexico is one of the 4 worst countries in Latin America for income distribution. 40% of the population is unemployed or underemployed. Income per capita is $7,830 in Mexico, compared to about $26,000 in the US.

Perhaps YOU think that overfishing to eat is ignorant. Perhaps your analysis is a little too simplistic. Selling fish for cash raises money to buy things you cannot eat, such as clothes and medicine and doctors bills.

It is nice to know that are so many help wanted signs out. Did you ever stop to consider why? Is it because the cost to live down there is so high relative to the minimum wage that a Mexican can earn that it makes no sense to move there? If that were not the case, then the US could just buy every illegal alien in the US a bus ticket to La Paz and solve two problems at once. But that's not happening Don, is it?

Cypress - 8-18-2008 at 03:15 PM

tsgarcia69, Your old blame game is old, moldy, rancid and poison.:( The fish will be gone. Ever heard the storey of the "Golden Goose"?If things continue, gill nets, hookas', etc., a can of sardines will be considered seafood down along the Sea of Cortez.

wilderone - 8-18-2008 at 04:17 PM

It's easy to be indignant when your belly is full. But when you live in a poor country and all you can muster to eat each day is 1,000 calories when your body need 2,000, your view of the world gets very "shortsighted"; like in "where's my next meal?"

I have never actually seen this situation. Have you? Baja CA is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's.

tsgarcia69 - 8-18-2008 at 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
I have never actually seen this situation. Have you? Baja CA is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's.


Good point, wilderone. I've also never given birth, so I suppose I have no right to discuss abortion. Nor have I done drugs, so I suppose I have no right to discuss illegal drugs. By the way, it's good to hear that Baja is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's. I'll bet you'll be happy to hear the most of the commercial fishing fleet in the Sea of Cortez is based out of Sinaloa and Sonora on the mainland, not Baja. That may be relevant to some future conversation you may want to partake in.

By the way, speaking of your post about joining conservation groups and getting involved, I want you to know that I do not eat fish, not any. Actually, I do not eat any seafood at all. Nobody is making any money off of me by overfishing. So, if you really want to put your mouth where your money is, you should all just follow my example and stop eating fish.

And no, I did not say that backwards.

Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message board?

wilderone - 8-19-2008 at 10:13 AM

1. You have no right to tell women what they should or should not do with their bodies. How many unwanted children have you adopted?
2. If you don't know all the facts of what you're opining about, then maybe your input is feckless.
3. Commercial fishing is out of the mainland? That's not what we're talking about. The point was that it is a mistaken concept that there are poor Baja families stripping the Gulf of CA of its bounty to feed their familes, and that somehow overfishing, gill netting, etc. is then ok. Sustenance fishing has never been a problem.
4. Again, proper fisheries management and conversation will enable those who do eat fish to continue to eat fish. Baja CA has a long way to go to establish and monitor fishing conservation guidelines. Although there are laws, they are not enforced. There are organizations and other countries' fisheries problems which have been addressed all over the world and improvement has been made on many fronts. The Gulf of CA has been exploited for too long.
5. You don't eat fish, so that's your contribution to the SOLUTION? Well congratulations on your big sacrifice and involvement.
6. I contributed money to the Billfish Foundation to fight the new longline shark fishing laws (which was halted by the way - because of the outcry from not only local Baja fishermen, but pressure from the US as well). I forwarded the video to a freelance writer who is currently researching a story on the "old Baja" recreational fishing days, and a businesswoman who works for a fishing resort on the East Cape. I don't spearfish. I don't catch 45 yellowtail per day just for fun. I don't catch and release a half-dead, traumatized fish back into the sea. I buy fishing permits, tip pangueros enough to feed their families for a week, and make purchases all up and down the peninsula when I travel in Baja - unlike many people driving motorhomes who bring everything with them and never indulge the local economy.
7. If you haven't noticed, Mex. 1 has heavy traffic night and day - and most retail establishments all up and down Mex. 1 benefit from those in-country. Opportunities abound for those in coastal towns to feed their families.
8. "Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message board?" Nonsense. And I reiterate my call to arms to persist to spread the word to those who can actually DO something, because self-rightous proclamations of "I don't eat fish" just ain't gonna do it.

wilderone - 8-19-2008 at 10:28 AM

And thank you for the inspiration - I've forwarded the video to every email address on this list with my personal comments:

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tripledigitken - 8-19-2008 at 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
1. You have no right to tell women what they should or should not do with their bodies. How many unwanted children have you adopted?
2. If you don't know all the facts of what you're opining about, then maybe your input is feckless.
3. Commercial fishing is out of the mainland? That's not what we're talking about. The point was that it is a mistaken concept that there are poor Baja families stripping the Gulf of CA of its bounty to feed their familes, and that somehow overfishing, gill netting, etc. is then ok. Sustenance fishing has never been a problem.
4. Again, proper fisheries management and conversation will enable those who do eat fish to continue to eat fish. Baja CA has a long way to go to establish and monitor fishing conservation guidelines. Although there are laws, they are not enforced. There are organizations and other countries' fisheries problems which have been addressed all over the world and improvement has been made on many fronts. The Gulf of CA has been exploited for too long.
5. You don't eat fish, so that's your contribution to the SOLUTION? Well congratulations on your big sacrifice and involvement.
6. I contributed money to the Billfish Foundation to fight the new longline shark fishing laws (which was halted by the way - because of the outcry from not only local Baja fishermen, but pressure from the US as well). I forwarded the video to a freelance writer who is currently researching a story on the "old Baja" recreational fishing days, and a businesswoman who works for a fishing resort on the East Cape. I don't spearfish. I don't catch 45 yellowtail per day just for fun. I don't catch and release a half-dead, traumatized fish back into the sea. I buy fishing permits, tip pangueros enough to feed their families for a week, and make purchases all up and down the peninsula when I travel in Baja - unlike many people driving motorhomes who bring everything with them and never indulge the local economy.
7. If you haven't noticed, Mex. 1 has heavy traffic night and day - and most retail establishments all up and down Mex. 1 benefit from those in-country. Opportunities abound for those in coastal towns to feed their families.
8. "Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message board?" Nonsense. And I reiterate my call to arms to persist to spread the word to those who can actually DO something, because self-rightous proclamations of "I don't eat fish" just ain't gonna do it.


Wilderone,

I agree with you post and respect your passion amigo!

saludos,

Ken

wilderone - 8-19-2008 at 12:54 PM

Some of the emails bounced back: updated if you're interested

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