BajaNomad - FM3 to FMT - Powered by XMB

FM3 to FMT

CaboRon - 9-19-2008 at 06:44 PM

Don't see much use in jumping through hoops to keep renewing the FM3 .....

If you do not plan on becomming a citizen of old Mexico ....

And if you are a renter ....

Then what's the big deal ....

Can you let it expire and then apply for an FMT ??

Have meet a lot of people living and working in BCS that
have nothing for paperwork, not even a FMT ....

So is there any advantage ??

CaboRon

Don Alley - 9-19-2008 at 07:18 PM

An FM3 gives you more legal rights. You have a right to a hearing before deportation.

If you leave the country, to visit the US, you must take your belongings with you. Anything you leave behind is technically considered abandoned if you don't have an FM2 or FM3.

I would guess, though, that you're probably OK using an FMT. But if you guess wrong, you can be booted out, and not let back in. So, do you feel lucky? :biggrin:

David K - 9-19-2008 at 07:20 PM

FM-T is a tourist visa for people on a vacation. Not for people living part time or full time in Mexico. Also not good for having or leaving any property in Mexico. When you go back 'home' to the U.S., you can't leave behind anything... technically.

woody with a view - 9-19-2008 at 07:32 PM

in the late 80's i spent ALOT of time in oaxaca. there were plenty of people who would use the fmt for 180 days then take the bus to guatemala and leave mexico for the day or even a few hours. next day they'd return to mexico and get a new fmt for another 180 days. logistics make it harder from T.S.

From The Baja Western Onion...

BCSTech - 9-20-2008 at 05:18 AM

On Wednesday:

Quote:

Mexican Residency Visa Warning (Courtesy, Baja Pony Express) - Well it is now official. The computer at the airport and the rest of the Immigration offices now pick-up if you have an FM-2 or -3 and are using a FM-T or Tourist Visa. One of my people was just caught and cited on the spot. He must now go before an Official later this week to find out the penalty.

You CANNOT arbitrarily change your immigration status at whim. I also suggest you keep a copy folded up in your wallet at all times. I shall post the results of the Hearing when I have more information. - Dennis C. Riley, Los Barriles

Questions: Does anyone know if this applies if a person has a recently expired FM-2 or -3? Does the holder of an expired FM-2 or 3 have to do something to extinguish the residency permit first? Please post answers here: http://www.bajawesternonion.com/submitarticle.asp

Response

Quote:

Expired FM3 - In answer to the question about having an expired FM3 and trying to enter the country. Our friends used to live here in Mexico but have not lived here for 4 years. When they returned for a visit this summer, they were entering on tourist visa's since they assumed their expired FM3's were no longer any good. They were given a one day permit and told to appear at Immigration the next day. It turns out that you need to CANCEL your FM3, not just let it expire. After a 2 hour interview, it was finally decided that they had no ill intents, so the fine was ONLY $200USD apiece!!!! The gal doing the translation for them, told them the official could have gone as high as $900!!!! SO----in answer to the question, an expired FM3 needs to be CANCELED if you have no intent to use it again..........and DO NOT attempt to enter on a tourist permit with an expired FM3 on record!!! It's a serious offense!!!

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
FM-T is a tourist visa for people on a vacation. Not for people living part time or full time in Mexico. Also not good for having or leaving any property in Mexico. When you go back 'home' to the U.S., you can't leave behind anything... technically.

David, I understand that with an FMT you are not supposed to leave personal belongings in Mexico, but the Mexican Gov. lets you buy a home in Mexico with an FMT, is it your understanding that all contents of the house would have to be removed every time a home owner leaves Mexico?

David K - 9-20-2008 at 08:01 AM

First, let me be clear that I am not an official of the Mexican government nor have personal experience with any visa other than the FM-T. I have heard and read plenty in my 43 years of Baja travel from those who do live part time in Mexico.

So, I need to ask you who or what Mexican government 'lets you' buy a home? I would guess that they don't care what you have for a visa, as long as you want to spend money in Mexico that could very easily be confiscated without legal status... Sure, anyone will accept your dollars and let you 'buy' whatever you want. BUT, do you have ANY legal rights to your purchase?

The definition of TOURIST is not the same as a RESIDENT or PROPERTY OWNER. Tourist visit Mexico on a vacation... they do not work nor do they leave personal property behind at the end of their vacation.

I am sure lots of Americans fall in love with a place in Baja and will buy a home or lease a lot, while on vacation. AS SOON AS possible, they need to apply for an FM-3 to legally have a right to keep that property.... Mexico (incl. Baja) is a different country, and even though you can drive to it from the U.S., that doesn't mean your way of thinking or legal interpretation matters one bit.

Does any of this make any sense?

[Edited on 9-20-2008 by David K]

robrt8 - 9-20-2008 at 08:20 AM

But you DO have to apply for permission from the gov. and they do "let" you to purchase property, outside of the restricted zones, if you have valid immigration status--including an FMT holder.
The only case I know of where you must apply for an FM3 is to protect yourself for tax reasons.
I know of hundreds who own "vacation homes".
I don't know zip about the restricted zone.

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 10:24 AM

Hola David and Robrt8,I am on the mainland in the state of Nayarit, I am in the restricted zone, 5 blocks from the beach, I had a real estate agent, it went through a notario, i do have a fidecomiso, this transaction went through Mexico city for all paperwork and I asked before I bought if an FM-T was sufficient to purchase a house and was told it was enough. Where does it say one can not leave property in Mexico, I wish they would put do and don'ts on the back of the FM-T...Rick

Sufficient to purchase a home...

Dave - 9-20-2008 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
I asked before I bought if an FM-T was sufficient to purchase a house and was told it was enough.

But not to live in it.

DENNIS - 9-20-2008 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
I am in the restricted zone, 5 blocks from the beach,

Five blocks from the beach, you can't be referring to the Federal Zone which is twenty meters above the mean high tide line, in which case you would need a Concession. What is the restricted zone? I've just never heard of it.

elizabeth - 9-20-2008 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
I am in the restricted zone, 5 blocks from the beach,

The restricted zone is the land within 100 km of the border or 50 km from the coast. Any land outside of that restricted zone can be purchased by foreigners without a bank trust.

DENNIS - 9-20-2008 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

The restricted zone is the land within 100 km of the border or 50 km from the coast. Any land outside of that restricted zone can be purchased by foreigners without a bank trust.

Oh yeah...Now I remember. I was thinking within my Baja mind-set. Not too much here is in that zone although I think they've established that a very small parcel up by the widest part is in the free zone but, it's probably in no-mans land.

Thanks.....

bajalou - 9-20-2008 at 12:27 PM

The area around San Matis on Highway is not in the restricted zone.

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 12:36 PM

So, back to my question, where does it say that personal property can not be left by persons with an FM-T in Mexico... I can see they don't want old cars, trailers, motor homes, etc. littering the landscape but I am sure that every permanent camp site in Baja has stuff left from week to week in San Felipe or the East Cape and the owners do not have FM3's or FM2's..Rick

DENNIS - 9-20-2008 at 12:51 PM

Rick.....

As we all know, there are sooo many details reported here as "Law" that immigration doesn't ever attend to. They, the rules if they even exist, are just there to be pulled out of a hat when all else fails. Immigration here pretty much doesn't go around looking for infractions. Within their own office they have trouble agreeing with each other when it comes to policy. The US bred paranoia which surrounds them is largely unearned. They just arn't proactive in micro-enforcement.
These rules and laws you hear about probably arn't that anyway. If they are, they have to be explained to me by someone other than a complete foreigner who has never talked with an attorney.
Speaking of lawyers, they wouldn't know either but, I suppose one could pay them to do their homework to give a book-written law that is wide open to interpretation.
In other words, don't take anybody's word on the subject of Mexican law. Everybody thinks they're an expert because they heard something somewhere. And as the old saying goes, "If a person doesn't know, you can't tell him."

[Edited on 9-20-2008 by DENNIS]

Don Alley - 9-20-2008 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
So, back to my question, where does it say that personal property can not be left by persons with an FM-T in Mexico... I can see they don't want old cars, trailers, motor homes, etc. littering the landscape but I am sure that every permanent camp site in Baja has stuff left from week to week in San Felipe or the East Cape and the owners do not have FM3's or FM2's..Rick

OK, I can't prove that you need an FM2/3 to leave property in Mexico. Perhaps it's a moot (

)point anyway. Works like this: if you leave property behind without proper immigration docs, and it's stolen, when you report it to the police they likely will not investigate and you will not get your property back. But if you do have an FM2/3 and report your stolen property, the police will promise to investigate before you don't get your property back. :biggrin:

gnukid - 9-20-2008 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Rick.....

As we all know, there are sooo many details, reported here as "Law" that immigration doesn't ever attend to. They, the rules if they even exist, are just there to be pulled out of a hat when all else fails. Immigration here pretty much doesn't go around looking for infractions. Within their own office they have trouble agreeing with each other when it comes to policy. The US bred paranoia which surrounds them is largely unearned. They just arn't proactive in micro-enforcement.
These rules and laws you here about probably arn't that anyway. If they are, they have to be explained to me by someone other than a complete foreigner who has never talked with an attorney.
Speaking of lawyers, they wouldn't know either but, I suppose one could pay them to do their homework to give a book-written law that is wide open to interpretation.
In other words, don't take anybody's word on the subject of Mexican law. Everybody thinks they're an expert because they heard something somewhere. And as the old saying goes, "If a person doesn't know, you can't tell him."

Well said Dennis, funny that all the important secrets of Baja can't be passed on to newcomers since people need to experience the persistent nonsense themselves to understand. Oh well, lets all have a mojito and not worry about it!

BajaGringo - 9-20-2008 at 01:53 PM

Here is the way I said it elsewhere on another forum and applies to such issues of not being able to obtain a clear answer to such questions:

I always say that Mexico isn't for everyone. You have need to have most or all of the following character traits to enjoy a (mostly) pleasant stay:

bohemian
self sufficient
thick skinned
easy going
adaptable
open minded
adventurous
non-complainer (at least not obsessive)
desire to learn, appreciate and participate in the local language and culture

In my 30+ years living in Latin America I have seen how expats from NOB who can be identified by these traits (I probably missed some others that could be included) are the ones who truly do well down here. I was helping some friends of a friend a few months back who wanted to come down and take a look around. They were considering Mexico for retirement so the first thing I did was take them for a drive around town and made some small talk in the car to get to know them. They had questions about assimilation so I put it to them this way - if you are the type who back home gets upset at things like:

1. Your neighbor who doesn't take his trash cans back in after the garbage truck goes by
2. Your neighbor who like to play music at 11:30 at night
3. Your neighbor who mows his lawn only once a month
4. Your neighbor who likes to work on his car in front of his house
5. Your neighbor who likes to have family get togethers every weekend and their family is bigger than many mid-western towns
6. The grocery store frequently does not have 2 of the 5 items you went there to buy
7. Electricity going out 5 minutes before your favorite TV show is to begin
8. Water pressure going out the evening your family arrives to spend the weekend
9. The mechanic tells you he will have your car ready at 5:00 PM and you thought that meant today
10. The plumber hooked up your new sink with the hot and cold reversed

Then I ask them if they are the types to write letters to the editor of the local newspaper for everything that bugs them about things going on in their neighborhood back home.

If I get a yes answer to more than 2 of them or especially to the letter to the editor question, I will tell them that Mexico may not be a good choice for them for anything more than vacations. That is what I told the couple my friends asked me to help out. They actually got a bit upset with me but I felt like I was doing them a favor.

It is okay to recognize, understand and point out the less than positive aspects of life here in Mexico, but when it reaches the point of ruining your day then perhaps you need to just recognize that life on this part of the planet is not your cup of tea. No harm intended or directed at anyone in particular here.

Just an observation and as always, YMMV...

[Edited on 9-20-2008 by BajaGringo]

FM-T rules???

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
An FM3 gives you more legal rights. You have a right to a hearing before deportation.

If you leave the country, to visit the US, you must take your belongings with you. Anything you leave behind is technically considered abandoned if you don't have an FM2 or FM3.

I would guess, though, that you're probably OK using an FMT. But if you guess wrong, you can be booted out, and not let back in. So, do you feel lucky? :biggrin:

Senor Alley, The only reason I asked my question is because of the second paragraph of your post. I wanted to know where your information came from, by the way even me with just an FM-T, when bandits stole some copper off my home the local police investigated, took a report, found the bandits and put them in jail...ole

BajaGringo - 9-20-2008 at 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
by the way even me with just an FM-T, when bandits stole some copper off my home the local police investigated, took a report, found the bandits and put them in jail...ole

Well that was obviously a mistake!!! Those cops could get themselves into serious trouble. They better give the bandits back their copper before somebody finds out...

:lol:

CaboRon - 9-20-2008 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Dennis,

All of Baja is in the restricted zone ....

CaboRon

DENNIS - 9-20-2008 at 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
All of Baja is in the restricted zone ....

CaboRon

Not quite all of it, Ron. Look at Bajalou's post above.

Beautiful country

Dave - 9-20-2008 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
All of Baja is in the restricted zone ....

CaboRon

Not quite all of it, Ron. Look at Bajalou's post above.

There is quite a bit in Valle Trinidad.

DENNIS - 9-20-2008 at 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

There is quite a bit in Valle Trinidad.

Didn't realize the penninsula maintained enough width that far in but, I need a map. What I do know is Valle de Trinidad used to be [maybe still is] a war zone between the feds and the growers. Ten years back, there were hotels and motels in Ensenada, far removed from the tourist zone, that were full of federal police from other ares throughout Mexico who would suit up in battle gear for their daytime job in the valley. It was war.
You're right though...beautiful place.

robrt8 - 9-20-2008 at 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley

Quote:

OK, I can't prove that you need an FM2/3 to leave property in Mexico. Perhaps it's a moot (

So where did this idea come from that you can't leave property in Mexico on an FMT? A bar?
This is also the first time I've heard of stolen property returned to a gringo except pets.

Syllogism

Dave - 9-20-2008 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robrt8
So where did this idea come from that you can't leave property in Mexico on an FMT? A bar?

With an FMT, here are the things you can legally bring to Mexico. Nothing else.

http://www.aduanas.sat.gob.mx/aduana_mexico/2007/A_Body_Pasa...

Anything on the list you want to leave?

Don Alley - 9-20-2008 at 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper

Quote:

Ole, and touche, you got me. :lol:

I assumed your inquiry was in reference to my post but sorry, I don't remember the source(s) of my information, or possibly mis-information. But I do believe it to be correct, and it is worth every penny you pay for it. I have no problem if you have a home in Mexico with an FMT.

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 06:38 PM

Senor Dave, you stated

" With an FMT, here are the things you can legally bring to Mexico. Nothing else."

The question is what you can leave in Mexico not take into...

Amigo Alley, you stated

"Ole, and touche, you got me."

I am not out to get you, I just want to "get" correct information, that is why I asked the question, I like to learn new things...

P.S. great web site Dave it's in my favorites...Rick

And right back atcha

Dave - 9-20-2008 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
Senor Dave, you stated

" With an FMT, here are the things you can legally bring to Mexico. Nothing else."

The question is what you can leave in Mexico not take into...

What things on a list of acceptable items that a tourist is allowed to bring would you want to leave?

A pack of cigarettes? Video camera? laptop? A suitcase full of used clothing? Half a bottle of tequila? Sleeping bag or tent? What???

Obviously, you fail to comprehend the logic behind the previous post.

THIS IS GREAT

David K - 9-20-2008 at 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Here is the way I said it elsewhere on another forum and applies to such issues of not being able to obtain a clear answer to such questions:

I always say that Mexico isn't for everyone. You have need to have most or all of the following character traits to enjoy a (mostly) pleasant stay:

bohemian
self sufficient
thick skinned
easy going
adaptable
open minded
adventurous
non-complainer (at least not obsessive)
desire to learn, appreciate and participate in the local language and culture

In my 30+ years living in Latin America I have seen how expats from NOB who can be identified by these traits (I probably missed some others that could be included) are the ones who truly do well down here. I was helping some friends of a friend a few months back who wanted to come down and take a look around. They were considering Mexico for retirement so the first thing I did was take them for a drive around town and made some small talk in the car to get to know them. They had questions about assimilation so I put it to them this way - if you are the type who back home gets upset at things like:

1. Your neighbor who doesn't take his trash cans back in after the garbage truck goes by
2. Your neighbor who like to play music at 11:30 at night
3. Your neighbor who mows his lawn only once a month
4. Your neighbor who likes to work on his car in front of his house
5. Your neighbor who likes to have family get togethers every weekend and their family is bigger than many mid-western towns
6. The grocery store frequently does not have 2 of the 5 items you went there to buy
7. Electricity going out 5 minutes before your favorite TV show is to begin
8. Water pressure going out the evening your family arrives to spend the weekend
9. The mechanic tells you he will have your car ready at 5:00 PM and you thought that meant today
10. The plumber hooked up your new sink with the hot and cold reversed

Then I ask them if they are the types to write letters to the editor of the local newspaper for everything that bugs them about things going on in their neighborhood back home.

If I get a yes answer to more than 2 of them or especially to the letter to the editor question, I will tell them that Mexico may not be a good choice for them for anything more than vacations. That is what I told the couple my friends asked me to help out. They actually got a bit upset with me but I felt like I was doing them a favor.

It is okay to recognize, understand and point out the less than positive aspects of life here in Mexico, but when it reaches the point of ruining your day then perhaps you need to just recognize that life on this part of the planet is not your cup of tea. No harm intended or directed at anyone in particular here.

Just an observation and as always, YMMV...

[Edited on 9-20-2008 by BajaGringo]

Wow, I think this is the post of the day! :light:

I am so happy that people who actually live in Baja from the US are responding (Lou, Dave, Dennis, etc.) to this question.

It really is quite simple, maybe because it is Mexico and not the U.S. but the 'T' in FM-T means 'tourist'... an FM-T is usually called a 'Tourist Card'. It has NOTHING to do with living in Mexico full or part time...

Here is what a 'tourist' does: Travel to Baja, camp or stay in motels/ hotels, fish, hike, buy gifts, take photos, relax, etc. etc. THEN GOES HOME (to U.S. Canada, etc.). They need a Tourist Card to be 'legal' for stays anywhere in Mexico over 72 hours or to travel south of Maneadero or San Felipe. The maximum duration of any vacation stay in Mexico is 180 days.

Here is what a part time or full time foreign resident does: Buys or rents a home or a lot for a trailer or palapa... that stays in the same place for an extended period if not forever.
Lives in that home, trailer, palapa for an extended period of the year if not all year. They need an FM-3 or FM-2 to be 'legal'.

Listen to Dave, he knows... You can buy whatever property someone will sell you no matter if you are legal or not. But, to legally keep any property (real or personal) in Mexico an FM-3 or FM-2 must be obtained...

Cold hard facts... but best to do for your own protection. :light:

I am sure all the Nomads wish you luck in your move to Baja for part or all of the year!

CaboRon - 9-20-2008 at 08:03 PM

This was in today's BTO .... it seems to imply that even if you have an expired FM3 you need to somehow cancel it, otherwise you can never reenter Mexico even on a FMT ..

"Expired FM3 - In answer to the question about having an expired FM3 and trying to enter the country: Our friends used to live here in Mexico but have not lived here for four years. When they returned for a visit this summer, they were entering on tourist visas since they assumed their expired FM3s were no longer any good. They were given a one day permit and told to appear at Immigration the next day. It turns out that you need to CANCEL your FM3, not just let it expire. After a 2 hour interview, it was finally decided that they had no ill intents, so the fine was ONLY $200 U.S. apiece! The gal doing the translation for them told them the official could have gone as high as $900! SO----in answer to the question, an expired FM3 needs to be canceled if you have no intent to use it again and DO NOT attempt to enter on a tourist permit with an expired FM3 on record! It's a serious offense! - "

CaboRon

shari - 9-20-2008 at 08:22 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that even some immigration officials dont really know what all the laws are. Many moons ago, I was told by the immigration jefe that I only need a tourist card...in response to my question about what type of visa should I get seeing as I had a mexican daughter and was renting a house. When I finally did apply for my FM3, the immigration lady jefe in La Paz wanted to fine me for 6 years of NOT having an fm3 that I was supposed to have had it...geeeesh.
Many of the smaller regional office employees do not give you the correct advice and can cause problems down the line so I learned to always do all my immigration renewals etc. at the head office in La Paz.
Every little change must be noted in your fm3's....change of address, marital status, underwear....kidding....and when you change jobs...you need a letter from the company to immigration saying you dont work for them anymore.
I am so glad to not have to deal with all of this anymore as it was always complicated and they fine you for everything.

David K - 9-20-2008 at 08:49 PM

Great advice Ron and Shari!

Oh, congratulations 'abuelita' Shari!

bajagrouper - 9-20-2008 at 08:59 PM

Dave,
Unless an item is on the restricted or prohibited items list someone with an FMT can bring anything into Mexico from a coffee pot to the kitchen sink as long as they pay any taxes or duties that are due. Like is states in the website you included in your post, the only item that is tied to the FMT is the car one would bring into Mexico as a temporary vehicle permit..

I am not trying or wanting to argue with you guys, I simply asked a question when Don Alley made a statement in the second thread of the OP....he stated:If you leave the country, to visit the US, you must take your belongings with you. Anything you leave behind is technically considered abandoned if you don't have an FM2 or FM3.
I just asked where he got that information...paz

robrt8 - 9-20-2008 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
Unless an item is on the restricted or prohibited items list someone with an FMT can bring anything into Mexico from a coffee pot to the kitchen sink as long as they pay any taxes or duties that are due.

An FMT holder can also go to Walmart. Does everything we buy become the property of Mexico if it doesn't fit in the suitcase?

Please, someone, show us something we can refer to. How about a first-hand story even?

Shark18 - 9-20-2008 at 09:29 PM

Quote:

Hey, that's all good stuff. Why don't you wrap that up into an article and ask Thora to publish it in her Baja Lifestyles Magazine?

Then duck!
:rolleyes:

LaTijereta - 9-21-2008 at 08:59 AM

Baja Gringo.. Great post about the "mind set" to make it in Mexico

As for our experiance in Loreto, a few years back immigration was going door to door to homes they knew foreigners were living and demanding to see proper papers (FM-2/3s), if they were not produced.. The person's were asked to step up the counter and fined and/ or required to apply for an FM-3 status on the spot.

CaboRon - 9-21-2008 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LaTijereta
Baja Gringo.. Great post about the "mind set" to make it in Mexico

You must admit it was very nice of them to bring the counter to your front door :lol:

bajalou - 9-21-2008 at 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LaTijereta
Baja Gringo.. Great post about the "mind set" to make it in Mexico

They did the same in the San Felipe area. And rumor has it, they are planing to do it in the near future..

DENNIS - 9-21-2008 at 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
[They did the same in the San Felipe area. And rumor has it, they are planing to do it in the near future..

Did they come to your door, Lou? Tell us what happened when they came to your door.
I've been down here a lot of years and it's a recurring theme. The rumor will start usually from a newspaper article that feeds the public need for an assertive immigration response to what is reported to be abuses in the United States. Immigration authorities tell the people that they are on the job and the Gringo scofflaws are going to answer for their, and everyone elses, sins. That is what the people want to hear and they hear it and that's the end of it.
This has been my observation only. It isn't policy nor is it a prognostication. Just what I've seen, over and over in the past.

bajalou - 9-21-2008 at 11:38 AM

I wasn't home at the time but they came to my neighbors all of which had Fm3s. Only problem, a friend was painting a neighbors house without FM3 with work permit and they fined the home owner and my friend and gave him 30 days to get all legal, which he did.

DENNIS - 9-21-2008 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
I wasn't home at the time but they came to my neighbors all of which had Fm3s. Only problem, a friend was painting a neighbors house without FM3 with work permit and they fined the home owner and my friend and gave him 30 days to get all legal, which he did.

Sounds to me like the illegal worker was the person of interest at that time. Immigration here, when getting a report that somebody is working illegally, responds to it every time.
So, to satisfy my curiosity and quell the panic, they weren't doing a door-to-door sweep like the Mexigestapo some are led to believe they are???

bajalou - 9-21-2008 at 07:04 PM

That time they were door-to-door. And the homeowner got fined for the illegal worker.

DENNIS - 9-21-2008 at 07:06 PM

Thanks, Lou.

CaboRon - 9-21-2008 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
That time they were door-to-door. And the homeowner got fined for the illegal worker.

I am interested in what happened to the worker ...

CaboRon

bajalou - 9-21-2008 at 09:02 PM

As I said above, he was fined and given 30 days to get legal, which he did.

David K - 9-22-2008 at 07:46 AM

Lou,

I would like to hear more about obtaining the FM-3 Work Visa... which is required for any foreignor to do any work in Mexico (even volunteer work).

Please consider posting a new thread on the work permit process...

Thanks!

robrt8 - 9-22-2008 at 09:11 AM

The fmt states that the holder is not allowed to engage in money-making activity (paraphrasing). No problem there.
The OP asked about renting and, I'm assuming, having a valid fmt. I can't think of a situation where that would be a problem.

robrt8 - 9-22-2008 at 09:13 AM

Hey, I'm a junior nomad now!!!

CaboRon - 9-22-2008 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by robrt8
Hey, I'm a junior nomad now!!!

Now you can post an avitor !

gnukid - 9-22-2008 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Lou,

I would like to hear more about obtaining the FM-3 Work Visa... which is required for any foreignor to do any work in Mexico (even volunteer work).

Please consider posting a new thread on the work permit process...

Thanks!

David

To have a work permit in baja you must be sponsored by the employer, typically the corporation owner who has a legal mexican company with RFC# (registered number).

You would apply for a FM-3 with all the typical FM-3 things, residence proof, income proof, passport, cobrabantes (utility bills), copies, photos, plus a letter from the employer (all docs must be in spanish-examples are availabel on line of from the office of imigration), a letter from you requesting the FM-3, a copy and original or constancia of the RFC certificate from the Hacienda, oroiginal articles of incorporation. If the corp is foreign owned you must also provide the original and copy of the paid certificate of inversiones de extraneros.

You might need proof of the ability to do the job, for example a degree in teaching english or diving certification. Often this includes a certificate of Apostile from the secretary of state of the state where the certification or diploma was earned depending if/if not the home country is a signator of the Hague Agreement (US citizens need apostiles in Mex/Canadians do not).

The documents should be translated in Spanish usually stamped by an official translator. In many cases they will need to know how the income taxes will be paid and by whom, you or the employer, for example, you would likely have a card from the Hacienda establishing a persona fisica which is a taxpayer id and you would file with your accountant monthly or at least you should, regardless of zero income or higher.

You could apply for different FM-3s to work for no pay, you could receive pay as exchange, you could work in Mexico for a US corp and be paid in the USA, you could be the owner of the company and not work. There are many possibilities.

Often it is said that you can not take a job from a Mexican or that you can not own the company and work for yourself but these statements are not stated on the official Gobierno site though they are often repeated as hyperbole in immigration offices and circles. Laws change often and are interpreted differently depending on the geographic location.

I have often found myself in a situation where one office would conflict with another and suggest that a huge fine was needed to continue. I always use the same reply which works every time which goes like this in Spanish: "I am sure that you will do the right thing to correct any conflict as this is the right course of things, as my family and your have always done the right thing. I have lots of time but very little to no money so I will wait." Hours pass and days. I return often every day and I bring fruits and sit in the office quietly and when I see the people who claim a fine is due I say "here I brought you something, its a bag of fruit. I hope that you and the office enjoy it. I enjoy fruits very much." This continues for days or weeks, but soon the office will become embarrassed by your politeness and soon it will flip on them, and it will be seen that they are asking for mordida and they are in the wrong, delaying the process unfairly and you are always correct and polite. At some point someone higher up will say please help the nice person with the fruits (and fruit flies) finally and the documents will be processed to save face with with fine forgiven or some explanation. I never paid a fine or mordida at least not more than US$5.

In general, you can apply, receive your fm-3 and then you are generally compelled to file taxes monthly and to maintain all the associated documents. It is no big deal except that if you are not actually working you must prove that as well, you must demonstrate zero income (en ceros) and still file. Actually, you should be able to maintain the last proof of taxes paid as zero (en ceros) original and copy and no longer file if you do not receive income. So you would continue to renew your valid FM-3 with permissions for activities with the original and copy of the previous declaration of no income (en ceros). Though you may be required to go the Hacienda and request a constancia or newer version of the previous proof of taxes paid. For example in 2009 they may demand proof of taxes paid, you say I am not working, but you would go the hacienda and request the updated copy of declaration of no income you filed in 2004. I mention this because its quite common to have permission to work and not be receiving income, which is what you asked.

But, once you do reach this level you can declare all your taxes paid for goods and collect all the facturas (different from nota receipts) correctly with the correct RFC # and correct names, addresses and once you demonstrate that you paid sales taxes in some amount above the total you owe for income tax, then some of the sales tax amount can be deducted from the taxes you would owe. I am sure laws vary about how income taxes are paid, percentage-wise or flat tax etc...

Its not an impossible process and many of us do it without the aid of any assistance, no lawyers, but the stack of papers is so high it would surprise you and if you loose one, you need to get an original again. As a foreign business owner, there are more documents that may be requested than I mentioned depending on the area of expertise.

Personally I suggest that anyone considering these steps move slowly, do not feel pressured. You can begin the process and take your time. I do not suggest lawyers and paper pushers or translators or accountants unless you know them, they have an office, experience, recommendations etc.... Most are likely to overcharge you or confuse and delay the process. Every step can be achieved by yourself and if you are serious you should do it yourself.

On your own the entire process can be completed including incorporation of your own company and processing of all paperwork for FM-3 estimated under us$1000 primarily for government and Notaria processing fees. Attempts to use lawyers and official paper pushers would incur charges in the area of US$10-20k and delays.

I am giving you my personal experience as I am a incorporated mexican business owner who works for myself, I have no other employees. I do my own accounting and am my own legal representative (all legal exceptions to the rule). It took me about 60 days to complete the process initially.

Have fun with it, keep good records and go very slowly.

http://www.sre.gob.mx/english/

http://www.inm.gob.mx/EN/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille

[Edited on 9-22-2008 by gnukid]

shari - 9-22-2008 at 03:53 PM

Gnu kid it right...it is a huge effort and lots of paperwork to get a work visa...kind of surprising the guy painting the house did that...unless of course he is a professional painter who works alot here.

We were just at the Hacienda last week to make a few changes and when I specifically asked if we could do our own accounting, we I complained because a hacienda agent showed up at our door one day several months ago wanting to fine us for not sending in our remittances....turns our our accountant we are forced to pay monthly didn't pay them...but he was a pal of the hacienda guy and they gave him a few extra days grace to pay it...anyway, we were told we HAD to have an accountant...no way around it but that this will be changing in the near future and we will be able to send our contributions via computer...I'm just curious as to how you get around the accountant thing?

gnukid - 9-22-2008 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari....turns our our accountant we are forced to pay monthly didn't pay them...but he was a pal of the hacienda guy and they gave him a few extra days grace to pay it...anyway, we were told we HAD to have an accountant...no way around it but that this will be changing in the near future and we will be able to send our contributions via computer...I'm just curious as to how you get around the accountant thing?

Your statements are correct. Lets expand on it. Every person and every company must have an accountant and file monthly or so. So for every RFC there is a monthly or quarterly filing with a designated accountant. For every persona fisica taxpayer id you must file monthly or quarterly as agreed. Therefore there are many accountants, some don't do much. Most are paid between US$25-100/monthly.

It is against the rules to represent yourself, be your own boss, meaning you can not take two jobs, or three or four. But all documents can be filed electronically or in person at the stations at the hacienda. Therefore once you begin the process and demonstrate the issues to be factual and some consistency, after having used an accountant, you demonstrate honesty and then the accountant demonstrated they are incompetent but you are honest then the Hacienda can give you the login to complete the filing with the approval of an agent of the hacienda.

I have found that you should ask for Joeseph or Josephina or Jose and that helps. It is a little inside joke at the Hacienda-meaning please, anyone it doesn't matter who, I need a little help from someone. I have no idea why, but they always say it, ask for Joseph or Josephina. I think either their names are Josephina or that if they are going to break the rules they use a nickname. I do not know. But they always say Joseph or Josephina will help you just ask. And they do help and their name isn't Joseph. The people at the hacienda are incredibly nice, advanced, more so than other countries, they do a good job and want to help you complete the process quickly and painlessly. They are separate from the INM and understand that conflicts are possible. Bring the phone number and names of your notaria, accountant and INM so that if push comes to shove, then you can say please go ahead and call the other office and make it the responsibility of the officials to resolve-through your patience and politeness.

Don't forget the bag of fruit and the fruit flies, they will find a way to help you and get rid of you fast.

[Edited on 9-22-2008 by gnukid]

Shark18 - 9-22-2008 at 06:13 PM

Gnukid:

Your two long posts would make a great article for Thora's Baja Lifestyles Magazine. I especially like the part about bringing the fruit and fruit flies every day for a few weeks until you embarrass the staff into renewing your FM3.

I applaud your tenacity for actually going through that rigmarole every year, but question your sanity for doing it.

Que viva Mexico, tierra de la mediocridad y la hipocresía.

gnukid - 9-22-2008 at 08:13 PM

I would be pleased to help Thora's BajaLifestyles.

In Mexico I am more interested in the interaction each day and the people than the specific actual outcome. I will become a citizen soon and this period of visa renewals will become a fond memory. Though there is a sense of mastery that comes with success, I'll admit moments of frustration.

If you are in process you are legally in the right (that's what the officials say).

If you proceed very slowly and carefully in the offices and they do not stamp your papers truly its a poor reflection on them not the person in process.

Besides, its something to do in an air conditioned space between fishing in the morning and sailing in the afternoon. They usually have TV, coffee, food and bathrooms for people who wait. If you are new to town its probably the only public bathroom in town you can find and its a nice place to relax. Truly if there is a conflict between the notaria, hacienda and INM thats not something that should cause you to incur a cost or a fine, while if its truly an error it should be an issue for the officials and Mexico City to fix and changes in laws are not your problem either, anything stamped yesterday is legal today.

I live basically next door to all the offices so as opposed to a waste of time its something I enjoy to pass them each day and see the staffers at the grocery, parties and such so part of the process is learning and earning respect and now we are all great friends--though I still complete the process like anyone.

The fact is no one can really help you solve these issues but yourself. Mexican friends can't help since they have never been in the process of being a gringo-nor do they understand. That and if you live in La Paz you soon realize that almost everyone works in some government office and they all play the same mysterious 'chicken before the egg' game, so the sooner you master the riddle the better.

I do feel sorry for those who have been taken for thousands by "lawyers" who claim to be able to help--they rarely do help. They just ask you for the papers you have and ask you to submit them, that's not helping much.

You need to give people a reason to want to help. If you want to practice for this process, practice some funny quotes or stories, that type of approach works wonders.

Gather all your stuff and go make folders and 6-10 copies of everything. If you have nothing bring the address and utility receipts (cobrabantes) from anyone, its actually normal. You are not saying you live there just that you know someone as a reference.

Ok here's a story about how it all began. I had nothing, no place to live, no documents and I wanted to work and begin my life. I kept getting the run around, I couldn't open a bank account and I couldn't get a work visa and I couldn't understand why-except everywhere I went they were sure I couldn't. I was so frustrated. I pulled up to the stop sign by the malecon and I put my head on the steering and yelled in frustration. A car pulled up next to me with some girls who said, "que necesitas?" I knew little spanish but replied, "Quiero una ayudante" the girls shouted back "una amante?" "Si" They told me to follow them to have coffee and talk. Well I parked and got out, I stood on the sidewalk and the girls arrived. As they approached I realized that the girls I was speaking to were more than 6 feet tall and in heels-poca alta.

So we chatted for a while, then I explained my plight and I agreed to meet Gabi the next day at the bank at 10:00am. I arrived on time and waited for 15-20 minutes to see my new friend Gabi arrive. She walked in and motioned to me to join her as she greeted every single person in the bank with a kiss and greetings. She spoke briefly to the manager, "por-fa' ayuda mi amigo" and said goodbye to me and we made plans to meet at the immigration later.

I proceeded with the bank manager who said that of course it is normal to begin with an incomplete form, that we can put place holers or empty pages in place of the docs he would wait for and that with the recommendation of Gabi my new friend, I had a reference and official address-and no problem.

Then I went to my appointment at the INM and the same thing proceeded, I waited for 15-20 minutes for my new friend Gabi. She entered and greeted every single person with a kiss and a greeting and asked them, "por favor ensenyar mi amigo como," to begin the process. No problem they replied, we will begin with placeholders, there is nothing wrong with beginning with incomplete documents and completing them as you can. And finally the delgado came to meet me and asked, how do you know Gabi, Miss Baja California?

aha! y ya!