BajaNomad

What can you do with an Ornamental Concession?

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 09:21 AM

After two years of waiting, our "ornamental concession" for the Zona Maritime Federal has finally been approved.

Our intent was to prevent development on the beach in front of us, for obvious reasons. Now that we have it- what can we do with it? Can we rent umbrellas and chairs? What can we do on the property to recover the costs of preserving it? If we wanted to build San Diego style public beach showers and restroom- would that be possible?

elgatoloco - 10-7-2008 at 10:19 AM

Maybe open a Chinese Restaurant? Oh wait.......damn dyslexia again. Never mind. :biggrin:

I would check with the government before I did anything maybe find out who is in charge of permitting in the local federal office and see what they might want for Christmas this year?

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
Maybe open a Chinese Restaurant? Oh wait.......damn dyslexia again. Never mind. :biggrin:

I would check with the government before I did anything maybe find out who is in charge of permitting in the local federal office and see what they might want for Christmas this year?


I was wondering when I would have to bribe someone. :tumble:

Althoug I had heard horror stories about rip-offs for FMZ land, we didn't run into any problems although there was a complete lack of communication on their part for two years (and to be honest I had given up- thinking someone in Mexico City was going to give the land to a friend to develop). We heard absolutely nothing and then they show up at our door wihout any notice and say the title papers are ready.

I don't know what the annual cost of this concession is yet becasue they measure the land in different ways.

Once yuo have an ornamental concession- is it easier to change the type of concession so we could develop public showers and restrooms (witha taco and surf shop above them of course)?

elgatoloco - 10-7-2008 at 10:51 AM

What other types of concessions are there? Ornamental sounds like you can just build a nice patio with a seawall or something? As opposed to a Commercial concession if there is such a thing?

You need to get clarification from the feds or else you may end up with mucho problema amigo.

I don't know about the idea of a taco stand in such close proximity to a restroom?

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
I don't know about the idea of a taco stand in such close proximity to a restroom?


saves a few steps.

gnukid - 10-7-2008 at 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
After two years of waiting, our "ornamental concession" for the Zona Maritime Federal has finally been approved.



You have the right to use and develop the concession: there are residential and commercial concessions.

Usually the terms in the concession refer to

(1) The purpose for which the land is to be used, usually residential or commercial. However, sometimes special applications such as movie locations, or research sites are also required.

(2) The term for which occupation is to be granted.

(3) The amount and terms of payments.

(4) An agreement not to block public access to the beach among others.


-------

So really you can not do anything with the concession property, however, neither can anyone else. You can make a plan and develop the concession into something as the current holder, provided you follow the proper steps.

longlegsinlapaz - 10-7-2008 at 11:08 AM

Does the concession paperwork itself not have any limitations in it? I know.....way too logical! ;) I considered getting the concession on the land in front of my Comitan waterfront property, but too many gray areas & if I remember correctly, it was way too $$ to get it & the annual fee was too much for me to want to proceed. I do know that you can't build any permanent structures & you can block vehicular traffic, but cannot block foot traffic. Assuming you're joking about taco stand because you'd have to have working FM3 (which you MIGHT have) & report taco sales to Hacienda & pay taco tax...which sounds way too much like non-retirement activities to me!;) I'd definitely check with the powers that be to find out the "thou shalls" & the "thou shall nots" before you open the first Canlis in Baja!

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 11:13 AM

The actual title papers will be delivered Monday and I'll be able to review them closer.

I do know there is a concession for ornamental and another for ornamental for profit (maybe that's horseback rentals). My goal is to improve the beach for local families and tourists with san diego style beach restrooms and showers- but structure it all it so it doesn't cost me anything out of pocket. Any suggestions?

comitan - 10-7-2008 at 11:52 AM

The only concession I'm familiar with the papers drawings said the person had to build those circular palapas and some other improvements I don't remember.

gnukid - 10-7-2008 at 12:00 PM

It should be possible to clean and improve the space without being profitable or incurring costs without any changes to the concession.

Since you are developing your own place, lets say with mexican friends not for profit there is no requirement for incorporation or work permit in general.

And if it is necessary to alter your concession under threat of fine by a rogue semarnat agent you can negotiate and allow the process to slowly unfold over the course of years...

Your circumstance is common as are showers and so forth. Often times people truck in more sand or move rocks but these days things are changing.

I would not to move too quickly or dramatically since this would draw the attention of the previous agent who is primarily interested in securing more funds/fines from gringos with money to spare.

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 12:21 PM

Thanks gnukid.

We've been keeping the land clean daily (ok-my nephew does it) and we added a disabled beach wheelchair access point (although everyone blocks the blue parking area with their cars).

We will add more protection (fill the gaps of the seawall) for the winter storm waves (big rocks if we can find and transport them). None of that costs much and will cost less than the labor we currently spend on maintaining a sandbag system while waiting for concession approval.

All good response- thanks nomads. keep 'em coming

We were never told excatly what the concession would cost (beyond the $3000 to survery and file it) to renew annnualy because it depends on where they drew the line in the sand, literally. It is based on square meters- I think 3 pesos per square meter per month or something liek that.

oladulce - 10-8-2008 at 04:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
What other types of concessions are there?


Our concession is a "Proteccion" (just got it yesterday after a 3 year wait). We were told that we could landscape and use the area.

An "Ornato" concession was explained to me like this: ok to landscape and put a structure such as a palapa but no concrete or other "permanent" building materials can be used.

The SEMARNATwebsite used to have the concession classifications explained in the online application section, but they've changed their website again and I couldn't find anything.

Woooosh - 10-8-2008 at 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
What other types of concessions are there?


Our concession is a "Proteccion" (just got it yesterday after a 3 year wait). We were told that we could landscape and use the area.

An "Ornato" concession was explained to me like this: ok to landscape and put a structure such as a palapa but no concrete or other "permanent" building materials can be used.


A fast-talking real estate attorney (that i chose not to use in the end) walked the area I eventually got with me and told me she did the concession for the next stretch of beach as an"Ornato concession for profit". I only knew about "Ornato" concessions for no profit. I couldn't think of an example of how one could profit from an oramental concession and she wouldn't tell me what type of business would fit. I asked a few times what they were going to do with it. That's why I threw it out here for the nomads in the real world.

Dave - 10-16-2008 at 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
After two years of waiting, our "ornamental concession" for the Zona Maritime Federal has finally been approved.

Our intent was to prevent development on the beach in front of us, for obvious reasons. Now that we have it- what can we do with it? Can we rent umbrellas and chairs? What can we do on the property to recover the costs of preserving it? If we wanted to build San Diego style public beach showers and restroom- would that be possible?


You got a concession to prevent development so you could develop? Most get a concession to prevent it. Beach showers? I'll bet your neighbors will love you for it. I know I would. :lol:

The Gull - 10-17-2008 at 07:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
An "Ornato" concession was explained to me like this: ok to landscape and put a structure such as a palapa but no concrete or other "permanent" building materials can be used.


That is correct. Some brick planters and a bit of paving stones would work under the definition of Ornato, but when things start going vertical, like a structure with footings, you are looking at a situation where you would be open to enforcement or the alternative, Mordida. You can put up a shower with a 2x4 and a hose, not permanent, and usually ugly.

Woooosh - 10-17-2008 at 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
After two years of waiting, our "ornamental concession" for the Zona Maritime Federal has finally been approved.

Our intent was to prevent development on the beach in front of us, for obvious reasons. Now that we have it- what can we do with it? Can we rent umbrellas and chairs? What can we do on the property to recover the costs of preserving it? If we wanted to build San Diego style public beach showers and restroom- would that be possible?


You got a concession to prevent development so you could develop? Most get a concession to prevent it. Beach showers? I'll bet your neighbors will love you for it. I know I would. :lol:


:mad::fire::mad::fire::mad::fire::mad::fire::mad::fire::mad::

We got the final concession papers yesterday- good for 15 years!

I take exception with this post. Yes, we wanted to prevent real estate development in front of our property- and that was the main motivator. Our neighbor a hundred yards away just got a five story condo building in front of their house completly blocking their light and view of the coronado islands. The stretch of land in front of ours would have been next- had we not intervened.

But we applied for this concession two years ago - in order to preserve this one small stretch of beach (six building lots wide) for public access and use, since the land bandits have grabbed and wired-off everything else around. What's wrong with that?

You don't think the disabled beach access we put in was a good thing? It's the ONLY place a disbaled person can wheel themselves out to the water on a flat hard-packed surface. You don't think a public bathroom and shower is a good thing? I do. There is not one free public beach bathroom in Rosarito Beach- 5000 people a day in summer using the beach and not one bathroom (which is why mexican families always seem to first pack a shovel and roll of TP for their beach outing). I'm tired of seeing young girls squat in the street to go bathroom or change clothes while their mother holds a bedsheet around them. That's not good for anyones self respect. I am tired of people complaining that horses and dogs foul the beach while 5000 people just go in the holes they dig or wade out in the water to do thier business.

We are offering to provide the same basic public facilities that San Diegans enjoy and take for granted. I don't think any San Diegans would consider their beach bathroom/shower facilites "unwanted development". It's called civilization you putz.

Packoderm - 10-17-2008 at 08:58 AM

Perhaps you could get some kind of barge or other portable sort of thing that could theoretically be moved placed on the beach and put a bathroom and showers on that. With a little imagination, it could be made to look very charming. Developers will be looking for reasons that you are in violation, so it must be a temporary structure. You could let one of the local ladies charge a peso for toilet paper thus taking care of security.

Woooosh - 10-17-2008 at 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
Perhaps you could get some kind of barge or other portable sort of thing that could theoretically be moved placed on the beach and put a bathroom and showers on that. With a little imagination, it could be made to look very charming. Developers will be looking for reasons that you are in violation, so it must be a temporary structure. You could let one of the local ladies charge a peso for toilet paper thus taking care of security.


Part of the concession area had a house on it once (taken back by the ocean) that still has the water and sewage pipes undreground. I'm thinking I can build something simple and tap into the existing sewage drain. Maybe just a simple palapa with some wood panel dividers.

I'm going to get SEMART on-board with us. They were very receptive to the idea of ANYONE providing public sanitary facilites. The rangers (who clean and maintain the beach) are all for it too.

As for other developers getting irked- I think they are happy no other competing projects will be built near theirs in this tough real estate market. They can now honestly say there is a protected public beach next door- not another condo building going in some day.

[Edited on 10-17-2008 by Woooosh]

The Mexican government should give you a medal

Dave - 10-17-2008 at 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
You don't think a public bathroom and shower is a good thing? I do. There is not one free public beach bathroom in Rosarito Beach- 5000 people a day in summer using the beach and not one bathroom (which is why mexican families always seem to first pack a shovel and roll of TP for their beach outing). I'm tired of seeing young girls squat in the street to go bathroom or change clothes while their mother holds a bedsheet around them. That's not good for anyones self respect. I am tired of people complaining that horses and dogs foul the beach while 5000 people just go in the holes they dig or wade out in the water to do thier business.


After determining where you live, I applaud your efforts.

Woooosh - 10-17-2008 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
You don't think a public bathroom and shower is a good thing? I do. There is not one free public beach bathroom in Rosarito Beach- 5000 people a day in summer using the beach and not one bathroom (which is why mexican families always seem to first pack a shovel and roll of TP for their beach outing). I'm tired of seeing young girls squat in the street to go bathroom or change clothes while their mother holds a bedsheet around them. That's not good for anyones self respect. I am tired of people complaining that horses and dogs foul the beach while 5000 people just go in the holes they dig or wade out in the water to do thier business.


After determining where you live, I applaud your efforts.


Thanks Dave. I humbly remove the putz label I bestowed on you in haste. Peace, love and fish tacos!

Bob and Susan - 10-17-2008 at 12:51 PM

sooo where are you taking the sewage...

are you hauling it off-site????

this will be the problem with public bathrooms...

not that i think your idea isn't honorable...

gnukid - 10-17-2008 at 01:03 PM

This brings to mind the ecological toilets which do not use water but instead use fire ashes or other chemicals such as lime to sprinkle over the waste and the waste can be reused as fertilizer. Just an idea. We could all benefit from ecological toilets throughout baja.

Perhaps there are other good ideas?

Woooosh - 10-18-2008 at 01:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
sooo where are you taking the sewage...

are you hauling it off-site????

this will be the problem with public bathrooms...

not that i think your idea isn't honorable...


The best solution I have for the sewage and wastewater diposal is to somehow hook into the sewage and water lines that are already there. They scraped-off the house- but left everything else that was underground.

I could excavate that area a little by hand and see what's where. I do have the right to dig holes in it wherever I want I guess and the neighbors have watched me do crazier things for sure. If I find the old sewer line- I can figure out what to build over it that complies with the concesion.

I think I'd just get a morbida or no fine for tapping into an existing sewer line that lies within our concessino area. It's not like I'd be putting a new sewer line in- which would take engineering reports and would most likely be prohibited with my type of concession anyway.

Thanks for all the help- keep 'em coming.

Bob and Susan - 10-18-2008 at 05:16 AM

i think you need a tank that needs to be pumped to be in compliance

there are companies that pump these kind of septic systems on the beach

the fine is now HUGE!!! :light:

Woooosh - 10-18-2008 at 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i think you need a tank that needs to be pumped to be in compliance

there are companies that pump these kind of septic systems on the beach

the fine is now HUGE!!! :light:


If I have access to an old sewage pipe that connects directly to the CESPT public sewage disposal system- why would I hire someone to pump it out?

The location is downtown Rosarito Beach- not a remote pristine beach in real baja.

[Edited on 10-18-2008 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 10-30-2008 at 10:03 AM

The most recent thing I have had to do is begin to defend it from theland bandititos.

A "realtor" with two clients showed up on the land yesterday and he was showing them the concession area and he had building plans in his hand. They claimed some lady (we had never heard of) had control of the land and they were buying it from her to build whatever it was they are planning to build. He wasn't happy when we told him we had the approved concession papers. The clients couldn't get it through their heads that this was now "Fedearally owned land" entrusted to us to take care of. They kept asking who owns it? who owns it? duh.

Now I know why after two years of waiting our concession came through two weeks ago when it did. There must have been multiple applicatons for the land and Mexico City was trying to figure out what to do with it.

In the end they gave us the concession- I suppose it is becasue we are "first in line". It's my understanding that if the property you own and have land title to "touches" the concession land you are applying for- you get first dibs.