BajaNomad

drug wars

Katiejay99 - 10-29-2008 at 08:00 AM

The thread started by gnukid "false drug wars" has been closed to new posts, but I felt it necessary to add my two centabos worth.

I agree with gnukid to a certain extent and I understand the reasoning behind the other posts. Having said that, I would question gnukid as to how he can claim that others have made threats and could be “banned permanently” when he turns right around and does basically the same thing with that same threat?

We are a species of varying ideals, consciousness and values and to each their own. I advocate peace as well, I mean geesh, if you’re gonna fight about something, why not fight (stand up) for peace instead of continued war.

Of course the best solution is to wipe out all drugs – which is an impossibility. I think even the name we give it “illegal drugs” is in and of itself insane. People choose to “get high” illegally and legally, it is their God-given choice to do as they please. The problem arises when those who do choose to alter their consciousness in this manner cause death and destruction to others on this planet. Therein lies the problem.

So, will making “illegal drugs” legal solve the problem? Is it the drugs or is it the person who takes them? I would choose to think that if we offered more compassion to the “users” they would then choose not to use. You could do that by offering to teach them things which enhance their life through community support, rather than putting them away (either permanently as Dave suggested or into a prison).

If we could turn around and help the ones who use, perhaps by teaching them about camping, fishing and the wonders of Mother Nature, it would make an impression on them. Perhaps offering to take some of them on a hiking, camping or fishing trip would help them mentally connect to the actual realities of life, instead of living in a drug induced state of illusion.

Baja has some of the most extraordinary medicinal plants growing here than most any other place on earth. Teaching others about their medicinal qualities and showing them how to cultivate, use and perhaps sell them would be a far more appropriate use of their “personship”. Just look at all of the Damiana, Oregano and countless other plants which grow here like “weeds”.

As a community, either in cyber-space or physically, we owe it to our fellow humans to help, teach and pass along positive information which can not only help them, but our society and planet as well.

So, does legalizing drugs actually answer the question or promote the problem? I think the basic “problem” is the confusion which some of our people have about life and living in it. Getting back to basics is a great way to ground someone and hopefully open up their eyes and heart about what life is all about. Peace, compassion and community.

Woooosh - 10-29-2008 at 08:51 AM

Great post. My favorite baja weed is Rosemary actually- IMHO nothing is better than grilled Rosemary-skewered shrimp with garlic butter.

The problem with the legalizing or not-legalizing drugs argument is that BOTH sides are right- but not compatible.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-29-2008 at 10:21 AM

99;

Very good take on the Thread and the Drug Wars.

Yes, legalize drugs and you take the Profit out.

Education and legal Drugs do not stop their use. Look and some of the other Countries.
Just think about the vast difference between the Extreme Left and Right in our Country today.

The Individual is the Answer as it is them who has the Freedom to Excersie their own Free Will and Accord.

Sometimes I think that it is just another way for "Survival of the Fitest"".


Gnukid should first learn to Control his remarks,in a Manner that will not "Overload " his readers.
Second, he should learn that when you overdo or overkill you lose many of your originial viewers.
Third: There is Always 2 Sides to any Problem.

He should not use the Phrase"Power to the People"! That excites some of us old Folks who associate that with the "Commies" and Socies".


Skeet

Bruce R Leech - 10-29-2008 at 10:36 AM

what skeet said:bounce:

gnukid - 10-29-2008 at 10:54 AM

Right on Skeet, I'm going sailing

Bruce R Leech - 10-29-2008 at 11:14 AM

sailing is the best therapy in the world. what better way to relax and forget about the worlds problems. I hope I can go with you some day.

mtgoat666 - 10-29-2008 at 11:28 AM

Would be great if we could all legally grow pot in our own yards for personal consumption.

mtgoat666 - 10-29-2008 at 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Katiejay99

If we could turn around and help the ones who use, perhaps by teaching them about camping, fishing and the wonders of Mother Nature, it would make an impression on them. Perhaps offering to take some of them on a hiking, camping or fishing trip would help them mentally connect to the actual realities of life, instead of living in a drug induced state of illusion.



Nothing better than some weed or shrooms to enhance the camping and nature experience.

geobas - 10-29-2008 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Yes, legalize drugs and you take the Profit out.


Well. I hate to argue with such a wise old sage such as you , skeet, but you have it wrong. Take a lesson from history. Prohibition ended in 1933 and moonshining is still a billion dollar business in the US. Legalizing alcohol didn't stop the illegal production of it. If you legalize drugs, the drug gangs will still be out there selling the illegal drugs undercutting the price of the legal product. The only difference is that now they will have more customers.

Woooosh - 10-29-2008 at 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by geobas
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Yes, legalize drugs and you take the Profit out.


Well. I hate to argue with such a wise old sage such as you , skeet, but you have it wrong. Take a lesson from history. Prohibition ended in 1933 and moonshining is still a billion dollar business in the US. Legalizing alcohol didn't stop the illegal production of it. If you legalize drugs, the drug gangs will still be out there selling the illegal drugs undercutting the price of the legal product. The only difference is that now they will have more customers.


the other difference is that pot is the #1 cash crop in the USA, and, if legalized and taxed would wipe out the national debt.

Live to surf surf to live

Lee - 10-29-2008 at 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Gnukid should first..... Second, he should learn.... He should not use the Phrase"Power to the People"! That excites some of us old Folks who associate that with the "Commies" and Socies".


Sure a lot of should(s) here.

Maybe gnukid should be gnukid.

''Power to the People.'' ''During the 1960s in the United States, young people began speaking and writing this phrase as a form of rebellion against what they perceived as the oppression of the older generation, especially The Establishment. The Black Panthers used the slogan "All Power to the People" to protest the rich, ruling class domination of society. Pro-democracy students used it to protest America's military campaign in Vietnam.'' Wikipedia.

Some generations don't give a hoot about whether geezers get excited, or not.

toneart - 10-29-2008 at 03:44 PM

You all have insights, albeit different pieces of the puzzle. All insights have some merit. Those merits are valued differently by different individuals. Some are totally debunked.

It is difficult to marry the varied insights when they carry so much emotional baggage...for lots of reasons.

Katiejay has a benevolent message of peace and love.

Gnukid has some of the same but lots more emotional baggage and consequently, frustration.

Skeet has his own cop views which has reinforced his adamance.

Some of you talk about taking out the profit motive by legalizing drugs.

Here are my thoughts:
As stated above, all of these ideas could work together, but more emotional detachment is required to see how the whole picture works.

When talking about drugs, most people have a drug of choice. For the majority it is alcohol. All drugs have the capacity to cause destruction and attract crime when abused; destruction of health, family relationships, social relationships, work, productivity, and they are prone to inattention to impending hazards.

It is important to learn the levels of destruction of each drug and not to paint them all with a broad brush.

Pot is the least dangerous, although used in excess can cause some deterioration of otherwise normal functions. Pot users tend to be less aggressive, less motivated to participate in social situations and menial work, and are somewhat lethargic. Depending on your view of the world, this isn't all necessarily bad. For sure, they are not a threat to others. Pot also has lots of benefits; the greatest being medicinal...mostly in pain control.

It offers a window into Spirituality, creativity, introspection and non-violence. (I realize that this sentence will be met with utter denial and outright anger by some). If you reject the premise, so be it. I am not a crusader and I don't care if you reject it. When I say "it offers a window into....." I mean just that. It is just a glimpse. You have to still do the hard work to reach a higher Spiritual plane or to advance to the Master level in your art.

My main point is that it should NOT be included in the same category as hard drugs and even alcohol. It is NOT a first step to hard drugs or crime. It should be decriminalized. That will free up resources to go after the dangerous drugs, criminals and users who sell or otherwise engage in crime.

Something else that has been discussed is the disposition of the apprehended user (of hard drugs). The element that is so apparent as to be often overlooked in these discussions, is that hard drugs are addictive! This does matter, in that the addict is not in control; of his actions or of his life. You might certainly fault him for taking that first curious step, but very quickly it causes a chemical dependency that overtakes the brain and the body. It is a medical condition.

This requires a huge level of compassion, understanding, and patience. Not everyone is capable of this, nor should they be. It needs to be sorted out by family, loved ones, law enforcement, doctors, clinical workers, social workers, anyone else who possesses those attributes and most of all, the individual addict.

Everyone deserves a chance. It is very difficult! Some make it and go on to benefit society, and sadly, many don't. It really does depend on the individual's desire and will to change. Friends who have made it through that dark tunnel have told me that it was the hardest thing they have ever done, and also the most rewarding. Lives can be saved, with intervention, help and love. Some are hopeless and in my opinion, castaways.

Mango - 10-29-2008 at 07:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
sailing is the best therapy in the world. what better way to relax and forget about the worlds problems. I hope I can go with you some day.


Likewise. :D Good wind to all. :saint:

"It's remarkable how quickly a good and favorable wind can sweep away the maddening frustrations of shore living".
-Ernest K. Gann

Bruce R Leech - 10-29-2008 at 07:48 PM

the only bad wind is no wind:smug:

Packoderm - 10-29-2008 at 08:10 PM

I would rather that they fought and won the war on cancer, or would that be more difficult to win than the war on drugs? I guess it depends upon their priorities. The sheer number of deaths due to cancer must be considerably higher than that of drugs. If not preventing deaths, what are their priorities?

greybaby - 10-29-2008 at 08:27 PM

Having been raised in the 60's and never even experimenting with any kind of drugs (I know, I lived a sheltered life), it was heart-breaking to see one of our sons return from Iraq and instead of deal with the PTSD, he turned to drugs to numb the pain. So would having illegal drugs (cocaine was his drug of choice) legalized have helped him? No way. He was addicted, a user, one who could not think straight because he was under the influence a good part of the time. There are all kinds of prescription drugs out there gotten supposedly legitimately and are being sold to users. Until our son faced up to the fact that he was addicted and could not help himself, checked into an inpatient rehab program at the VA hospital here on his own, there was almost nothing we could do (I work in healthcare, my husband works with drug addicts). During his time in rehab he was finally able to face his demons, not be afraid to go to sleep because of nightmares about the war and realize there was another way to deal with life than be under the influence. Was it easy? NO!!!! Would he have been better off locked up in prison? Of course, as a mother I don't think so but he certainly broke the law. I simply thank God every day that his life was saved before he killed himself or someone else. Drugs are horrible - legal or illegal. I am convinced legalizing street drugs would not help those in our society who are hooked. They're at the bottom of the heap.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone else unless their lives have been personally touched by the horror of seeing a loved one self-destructing before your eyes and having to wait for them to realize they are the only one who can change it.

Alcohol is legal but I don't see where it has done diddily squat to lower the number of alcoholics in this world.

I guess that was my dos centavos worth. As someone who could stand at a distance and judge others in the past for being addicted to drugs and thinking they were stupid to being humbled by having your child nearly throw his life away because of them changed me forever. At least give it some thought.

BajaGringo - 10-29-2008 at 08:50 PM

I understand your point and pain having lost two very close to me to drug addiction and another right now dealing with an addiction to heroin. My heart goes out to you.

Nobody said that legalizing alcohol would lower the number of alcoholics. It just took the control away from the mafia and allowed it to regulated and taxed. Those who have a desire to use a drug, be it alcohol, weed, cocaine, cigarettes or other will do so, be it legal or not. It is paramount to trying to stamp out prostitution or homosexuality. Behavioral choices are just that and society will never eradicate behavior driven by the bodies desire. All we can do is hold people accountable for their actions which is why we should have laws against driving under the influence, public intoxication, etc.

It is not a perfect answer but we do not live in a perfect world...

LOSARIPES - 11-3-2008 at 04:40 AM

It has been proven: Social tendencies will prevail over the law. Prohibition makes it harder but at the same time, more rewarding. Some people risk and lose their lives for those rewards, so what else can the law do? Threat with torture? Not even that would stop them and that would be illegal (We know that torture is common practice sin some places)
BajaGringo has it right: ..." Behavioral choices are just that and society will never eradicate behavior driven by the bodies desire"..........
Legalize and regulate. Educate and educate.... save our children through education, not prohibition.

Bajafun777 - 11-3-2008 at 10:32 PM

It would not do any good legalizing drugs as you would still have drug addicts and drug addicts like to steal and commit robberies to get money for the drugs. Pot is basically legal in California right now as less than an ounce you can only be fined up to $100 dollars and most law enforcement officers do not even want to mess with what is basically an infraction. However, almost every employer does drug tests and even if you try a blocking agent depending on how high the enity is testing will determine if blocking agent is identified as being in your system. Thus, you will fail the test on the spot and that is that. It does not matter if drugs were legal employers do not want the liability and that makes for having a lot of people unemployed. I do not use nor have I ever used due to being a high school and college wrestler did not want to screw up my training and my dad would have kicked the crap out of me:fire:!! Pot is not the big thing driving users to harder drugs but those using harder drugs drag these people that have little control over their desire to get high, then higher, and then just can't seem to catch that high that made them think more of getting drugs instead of getting sex, Now That is Just DAMN Well Not American, as we Americans both male and females like to pop the cold ones but appreciate the hot ones too:bounce:!!!!! Later---bajafun777

gnukid - 11-3-2008 at 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Would be great if we could all legally grow pot in our own yards for personal consumption.


Legally you can grow medical marijuana in California and 8 other states. As it states, the federal law making it illegal does not apply to patients and caregivers. You simply need a note from a doctor. The California ninth appelate court recently decided that all counties in California (where you reside apparently) must conform to prop 215.

Each County must maintain a location to distribute medical marijuana identification cards which identify you as a patient or caregiver and allow you to legally grow and possess marijuana.

I know this because I read it in the paper but I do not have personal experience.

There are legal medical marijuana dispenseries in every county.


http://ww2.cdph.ca.gov/programs/MMP/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.marijuana.com/medicinal-marijuana/106366-shibshib...

http://www.chrisconrad.com/expert.witness/Prop215.html

http://greenbridgemed.com/law_215.htm

Apparently the same is true in Canada
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3989

To all of you who love to insult and argue; this is the law. Its not my practice or my opinion. So please keep your insults to spelling related comments ;-)

Trivia: Senate Bill 420 which reaffirms and extends prop 215 (1996) legalizing medical marijuana was passed into California law in 2003 challenges have been denied by the Ninth Circuit Court in 2008.

[Edited on 11-4-2008 by gnukid]

nevadacitynurse - 11-20-2008 at 02:53 PM

This really turned into a great thread with thoughtful discussion.

I have a really kind of dumb question...but I seriously do not know....All the violence related to the drug cartels & border towns, What drug(s) are they fighting about? Is it pot? Or Cocaine, or both? Or something else?

CaboRon - 11-20-2008 at 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nevadacitynurse
This really turned into a great thread with thoughtful discussion.

I have a really kind of dumb question...but I seriously do not know....All the violence related to the drug cartels & border towns, What drug(s) are they fighting about? Is it pot? Or Cocaine, or both? Or something else?


I believe the fighting has gone far beyond drugs ....

It is now a fight for control of territory ....

This now includes the rights not only to sell and export drugs, but the rights of extortion, kidnaping, and other criminal interprises ....

Eventually they want to control the Mexican government ....

Some may think they already do ....

CaboRon



[Edited on 11-21-2008 by CaboRon]

castaway$ - 11-20-2008 at 11:34 PM

Another problem with legal pot is lung cancer, most pot smokers inhale deeply to absorb the most THC from eack toke. Although I don't have an attachment to prove my point I do remember reading many times that pot is loaded with all kinds of nasty things besides THC that are known to cause cancer. Also most of the pot smokers I know or have known also smoke cigarettes further increasing the risk of lung cancer. it stands to reason if we continue down the path of legalizing it we will need the tax revenues to help pay for the medical complications of the smokers.
With that said the potsmokers aren't the ones that scare me it's the meth freaks, meth is by far the most destructive drug currently and commonly in use, with the exception of organized drug rings the meth freaks are by far the most violent and unpredictable.
You all have valid points, my opinion, drugs will never be irradicated until people choose not to use and thats probably not going to ever happen so we need to educate our ourselves, our children and try to help those we see wandering from the pavement and into the gravel of life.