BajaNomad

Plane wreck thread?

bajajudy - 11-4-2008 at 12:28 PM

Why did it disappear?

capt. mike - 11-4-2008 at 12:32 PM

i asked to delete it - frankly i was out of line to advance info so soon given that all the people affected might not have been notified yet.

bajajudy - 11-4-2008 at 02:03 PM

Mike, no worrys
That was why I expressed my condolences after translating that article.
I agree with your decision 100%

Cap - 11-4-2008 at 02:36 PM

Class move, and explanation.

capt. mike - 11-4-2008 at 02:36 PM

there are other reports now on BBP.
the article contains as much as anyone knows.
Well it happens to the best. It is important at some time in the future to understand what went wrong so others can learn from it. There will be a full investigation with the help of the NTSB and the airframe and engine mfgrs all of which are routinely asked to assist foreign govt's in their post accident investigations.

tripledigitken - 11-4-2008 at 02:43 PM

Anyone who knew the pilot please extend our sympathies to their family.:(:(:(:(


Ken and Paula

Iflyfish - 11-4-2008 at 02:54 PM

Lo Siento. Be safe amigos.

Iflyfish

fishbuck - 11-4-2008 at 04:21 PM

What happened?

I went to BBP but can't view the forum. I guess there was an accident at Chivato

[Edited on 11-4-2008 by fishbuck]

David K - 11-4-2008 at 06:39 PM

BBP now requires $49 (membership) to look at their forum... Doug offers all his forums for free, including a Private Pilots forum that all BBP members are welcome to use.

I wish Erik or his dad would realize there are non-pilots who would like to be able to view their forum... I understand some pilot-only info found there has a value and they deserve compensation for that... there could be a members only forum for that.

fishbuck - 11-4-2008 at 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
BBP now requires $49 (membership) to look at their forum... Doug offers all his forums for free, including a Private Pilots forum that all BBP members are welcome to use.

I wish Erik or his dad would realize there are non-pilots who would like to be able to view their forum... I understand some pilot-only info found there has a value and they deserve compensation for that... there could be a members only forum for that.


Ya, what David said!!!

Hook - 11-4-2008 at 08:33 PM

I wish I could find a landscape contractor would would put in an irrigation system for free down here. I wish they would realize that person's driving by get value from viewing my landscape even though it costs them materials and labor.

fishbuck - 11-4-2008 at 09:35 PM

So anyone who paid for the BBP membership care to tell us what happened. I'm curious but still not buying the membership.
I don't think I need it.

thebajarunner - 11-4-2008 at 10:46 PM

According to posts this morning a King Air crashed on takeoff from Punta Chivato and was destroyed.
Pilot was only soul on board.
Guess we will have to wait for the Union to fill in the details.
Sad story.

mtgoat666 - 11-5-2008 at 07:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thebajarunner
According to posts this morning a King Air crashed on takeoff from Punta Chivato and was destroyed.
Pilot was only soul on board.
Guess we will have to wait for the Union to fill in the details.
Sad story.


details are in spanish language press. you can google to find the news articles.

Katiejay99 - 11-5-2008 at 08:21 AM

Mulegé, Baja California Sur.- Un avión particular se impactó contra tierra en Punta Chivato, Mulegé, el único tripulante, el piloto, perdió la vida y de ello dan cuenta las fotografías del cuerpo calcinado de quien aparentemente en vida llevara el nombre de Jim Minear.

Hasta el momento se desconocen los motivos del accidente. Se trata del avión King Air matrícula N200JL propiedad del señor John Lyddon, residente de Punta Chivato, Mulegé.

El finado piloto volaba de regreso del Pacífico Sur en donde había dejado a sus patrones con fines vacacionales. Ante de llegar a la pista de Punta Chivato el avión se impactó en un cerro, donde quedó calcinado, esto alrededor de las 13:30 horas. Actualmente se hacen las investigaciones.

you're missing the point Bucky

capt. mike - 11-5-2008 at 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
So anyone who paid for the BBP membership care to tell us what happened. I'm curious but still not buying the membership.
I don't think I need it.


Bucky - the dues paid with your membership helps protect us with Jack's lobby efforts in Mexico city - and a whole lot of other benefits which more than repatriate the $50 a year.
It, a membership, costs you less than 8 gals of CA priced avgas. Not to mention all the current info the forum provides pilots venturing to baja and mainland. You're being cheap Bucky - you should pitch in and support baja flying, not just reap the rewards others help achieve.
Do you not remember the days just a few years ago when Mexico's DGAC exacted a $56 PER VISIT tax on foreign aircraft entering the country??!! that went on for a full year before BBP's efforts alone got it repealed to become an annual multi entry permit. Maybe you weren't a baja flyer then. Well at $56 a trip ADDED on i guess you wouldn't have gone often if you can't cough up a lousy $50 a year for a proven support organization.

And as for a flyer's FREE forum - the section here on nomads is not in any league compared to the BBP - there are not enough pilots here to keep it viable or interesting.

DK doesn't get it either, Hook's analogy is right on. BBP doesn't have the time or interest to run an added forum that the whole non pilot world can rube around on. They don't need multiple forums - they are all about one single interest.

thebajarunner - 11-5-2008 at 09:08 AM

http://members.nowpublic.com/world/jim-minear-los-his-life-p...

Natalie Ann - 11-5-2008 at 09:15 AM

$50 per year is a small fee for all the up-to-date information that is shared by BBP on their website, as well as for the good work they do to keep the hassles for private pilots to a minimum.

I would not want to fly Baja with a private pilot who shunned BBP membership.

nena

[Edited on 11-5-2008 by Natalie Ann]

David K - 11-5-2008 at 09:33 AM

Mike, Hook, Natalie, etc.

I have nothing against membership fees for the organization and member only benefits... read my comment again...

The FORUM (only) is not the only thing you get as a BBP member... a forum is a way for others to SEE the benefits of being a member... The forum was always open and viewable for all the years BBP was online... and BBP has grown.

Now, with the FORUM not viewable, how easily can Jack and Erik PROMOTE what their club does (without an open and viewable forum)? Now, only by word of mouth instead of the World Wide Web can anyone see what a benefit BBP is.

Again, Baja Bush Pilots (founded by Arnold Senterfitt) is a club that always charged for membership but ALWAYS had a web site bulletin board/ forum that could be viewed for free (like Baja Nomad and all other Baja web sites).

Viewing the forum for free but requiring membership to participate would sure be more inviting to future potential members (than a secret society that non members are not welcome to check out and see the benefits of joining). I am interested in the success of BBP as a great club for pilots to join and that is why I made this comment.

[Edited on 11-5-2008 by David K]

I agree with David

thebajarunner - 11-5-2008 at 09:48 AM

I flew my Cutlass in Baja for 15 years and was planning to return to Baja flying when Chuck and I bot our plane two years ago. Then he crashed, and that took all the heart out of it.
Were I an active Baja pilot I would cheerfully put up the $50.
I am not.
But, I am still interested, and would like to occasionally peruse a site that still holds some interest for me.
But, if every interest that I hold would cost me $50 per year to pursue,
well......
you fill in the blanks.
'nuff sed...

capt. mike - 11-5-2008 at 10:59 AM

Sorry DK, but you still are missing it - BBP does not need a forum, public or otherwise, to promote the advantages of BBP membership - look at the public section - resting there is all the data needed to understand what BBP is and does.
What Arnold did 20 years ago has no relevance today. His organization was DOA when Jack bought it and overhauled then resurrected it.
The BBP offers enormous quantities of FREE pages/access on the public side of the website that the non member, non flying public can view and receive benefit from.
It is not a secret society. That statement is preposterous but mainly laughable. You are inflecting that there is elitism in the BBP's motives or that it is exclusionary which it is not by any means. And to suggest that limiting access to a forum reduces their recruiting or that free access would increase their roles cannot be substantiated by anyone except BBP admin so why offer it as fact? It's just that kind of posturing that runs rampant on public forums which BBP members do not want polluting and crowding their members' arena.
The choice to make the discussion forum accessable to members was to reward those who supported the BBP with membership and disreward those constantly pumping for free data but never ponying up to pay for their here-to-for free ride. Not to mention the oft poster who didn't fly but simply chose to muddle the space with non essential drivel.
Before it went private the membership were consulted and overwhelmingly concurred with the decision to create both a public and members only section for the website. People don't join so they can play around on a chat board like nomads is. Frankly, if you look at BBP membership, about 4000, vs. active BBP forum posters, the number who actually particpate on the forum is quite small in relative %.
But it is quality not quantity which counts, contrary to most free open sites I participate in, including this one.

funny.....i started here via a closed thread looking for info from locals on a crash, then i thought it better to have it deleted, which it was as explained above. Well that certainly lasted.

fishbuck - 11-5-2008 at 11:22 AM

I gotta say I'm still with DavidK on this one.
I posted a few times on the old forum. Then it was members only who could post. Now member only who could view.
I lost interest in them at that point.
But when I could view it I was very interested and almost joined a few times. Now I never even think about them.
Where I rent the plane they have most of the current info. The planes goes there weekly and the pilots pass along the info.
If I had any current info from a trip I would certainly pass it along to any pilots I could free of charge.
There just isn't that much to know about Baja anymore. There is only 5 places to buy fuel that I know about. And not very many runways left to use.
I do sense just a little elitism with BBP. But I don't really know those guys so maybe they are super friendly.
Seems like alot of turbine owners there and those guys usually have disdain for a little rental pilot anyway.
But I sure use to love reading their forum.

capt. mike - 11-5-2008 at 01:01 PM

I understand your outlook Fishbuck but sadly i regret you don't see the value. I bet you don't support AOPA either.
Maybe you'll change about the 1st time you have a major issue when south with a plane and need the kind of help BBP and it's members are willing to provide - like a mechanical rescue. I have done 3 of them.

I enjoy the friendships of a hundred or more guys (and gals) i have met thru the BBP including some outstanding times in baja and mainland with our planes or club's. There are hardly any turbine drivers among them, all are burning 100 LL like you and I. we love the dirt strips - the Jet A boys are limited mostly to paved ports. in 27 years of flying to popular places like the Serenidad i can count on 1/2 a hand the number of different turbo props i have seen there - and mostly it is the same one, a nice aero commander 680 whose owner has a place on the hill before the turn to Posada.
So keep reading the public BBP site - there is a whole lot more to do there than a discussion forum. Maybe one day we'll have you as a member - or if not, that's fine too.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-5-2008 at 02:12 PM

The Baja Bush Pilots are a Good Group of Pilots who live and Love Baja, Mexico, and Central Latin America.

I was a Member way back when Arnold Sennteriff was making out Landing strips in Baja for his Book{I think about 1972}

A Couple of years ago I made some Inquries about becoming an "Homorary Member" due to my Age and Experience and not flying actively anymore.
Talked to several people and even one Day at Hermasill0 had a Conservation with the Guy who Runs it.
I was only interested in trying to help with my Knowledge of Flying Baja and my Accident Investigation Experience.

Their Silence indicated that they were not interested in an Ole Timer unless he wanted to Pay up Front.

Neverthe less it is a good outfit and the combined knowledge can be of help if you are new to Flying in Baja. I would urge any new Pilot to Baja to Join and ask Questions expecially if you are going to Fly into a New Area for the First Time.

Hanger Flying at the Seriendad on a Week end can enable you to gain information about all types of Problems that may Arise.

Skeet/Loreto

dtbushpilot - 11-5-2008 at 03:56 PM

Capt. Mike,

Don't waste your time arguing with the complainers. If they were members they would "get it". They might have a clue how much work Jack and Claudia put into the club and how much they have saved us who regularly fly in Baja as well as the rest of Mexico. They also might know how much easier and safer Baja travel has become for GA pilots in Baja. They would probably have joined in on some of the many group trips that the club puts together and had met some great new friends. They may have even gotten involved in some of the humanitarian relief efforts spearheded by the BBP and expirienced the satisfaction that comes from helping others. They would even have the benifit of having the BBP mount a search and rescue effort for them if they go missing while flying in Mexico or anywhere else for that matter.....even if they weren't members......but they're not, and they don't, and they won't because it costs 50 bucks.

Anybody who can afford to own a plane and fly in Mexico would spend a lot more if they weren't members.

If there is a Nomad member out there who OWNS THEIR OWN PLANE and flies, or wants to fly in Mexico and can't afford the membership, pm me and I will pay your first years dues. if you renew (you will) I will expect you to re-imburse me because by then you will "get it" too.....dt

David K - 11-5-2008 at 04:06 PM

Mike, the BBP forums were viewable for many years and made BBP a great resource to pilots and future pilots...

That said, I believe any pilot who can't pay $49 would be foolish to fly into Baja without a BBP membership... I do believe in what Jack and Erik are doing. Don't think I am against BBP at all... I want then to do better and grow bigger... That is why I suggest at a minimum, allow viewing of the forums, if not participation.

The free side of BBP does not have any Baja travel info on it (last time I looked)... nor does any good if a new pilot comes here looking for airport info. (and we always sent him to BBP)... That is no longer an option, sadly.

Skeet, Fishbuck, and any other pilots who want to share their Baja flying details or stories... please do so, right here on Doug's free Baja Nomad Private Pilots forum... Nomad will still allow BBP members to look at it, even if they do not contribute for all the hard work and effort Mr. Doug Means puts into this site for every viewers benefit!:biggrin::smug:;)

I am a believer in the free exchange of vital travel info. to Americans (and others) traveling to Baja... It is both a safety issue and a good idea... promotes good will, etc.

Cypress - 11-5-2008 at 04:09 PM

A plane crashes into a hill. Someones father /brother/son dies. Sad! RIP!

fishbuck - 11-5-2008 at 04:24 PM

"If there is a Nomad member out there who OWNS THEIR OWN PLANE and flies..."

Well if that isn't elitism I not sure I know what is!:cool:

fishbuck - 11-5-2008 at 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
A plane crashes into a hill. Someones father /brother/son dies. Sad! RIP!


A King Air flew into a hill on or after takeoff from Chavato? I know there is a little hill at the end of the runway. Is that where he hit?
Anybody know anything except that it costs $50 to read the forum at BBP?

Natalie Ann - 11-5-2008 at 04:35 PM

I am sad for the loss of this man's life. Prayers for his loved ones.

nena

Russ - 11-5-2008 at 05:01 PM

The pilot made a left turn as to return to the runway and appeared to have just cleared just clear a notch between two hills when he went down. I don't know anything else about this tragic accident. The community is pretty shaken up and in shock.

dtbushpilot - 11-5-2008 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
"If there is a Nomad member out there who OWNS THEIR OWN PLANE and flies..."

Well if that isn't elitism I not sure I know what is!:cool:


It's not "elitism" fishbuck, I didn't intend to buy memberships for everybody who wants to "have a look" now and then, but those who might actually take advantage of the membership. If you seriously plan to fly in mexico I'll be happy to make an exception in your case...pm me.....dt

Skeet/Loreto - 11-5-2008 at 05:09 PM

If anyone gets more details will you please u2u to me if you would prefer not to Post.

I am interested ,as many years ago I investigated 2 Accidents at Chivato,.

Thanks Skeet

dtbushpilot - 11-5-2008 at 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
A plane crashes into a hill. Someones father /brother/son dies. Sad! RIP!


A King Air flew into a hill on or after takeoff from Chavato? I know there is a little hill at the end of the runway. Is that where he hit?
Anybody know anything except that it costs $50 to read the forum at BBP?



That's all I know....Anybody else?....dt

thebajarunner - 11-5-2008 at 05:41 PM

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=46184

Russ - 11-5-2008 at 06:04 PM

thebajarunner, I don't know how reputable the site/organization is but many of the facts are not accurate.
I thought the "South Pacific" was South of the Equator. I could be wrong on that. I've never heard of Baja being part of the South Pacific.
The pilot was not returning from dropping of the owner. He was on his way to pick him up at Tortuga where Mr. Lyddon was fishing with his guests.
And it was not 500m from the hotel. More like 3 to 5 miles. Or maybe 1 mile West of the end of the runway.
Just a clarification. I don't mean to shoot the messenger.

fishbuck - 11-5-2008 at 06:13 PM

Engine failure on takeoff?

Russ, no problemo amigo

thebajarunner - 11-5-2008 at 06:14 PM

Since those who seem to know the facts refuse to share them (without popping 50 bucks of vigorish)
those of us that are, or were, pilots are grasping for any info that we might be able to find.

Gee Mike, I must be pretty important

thebajarunner - 11-5-2008 at 06:19 PM

""in 27 years of flying to popular places like the Serenidad i can count on 1/2 a hand the number of different turbo props i have seen there - and mostly it is the same one, a nice aero commander 680 whose owner has a place on the hill before the turn to Posada. ""


In the early 80's I flew my 210T (N222T) several times into Serinadad.
Had a friend who was interested in resurrecting the mess at Punta Chivato, but in the end he lost interest.
Guess I must have used up most of those fingers you were counting

Russ - 11-5-2008 at 06:31 PM

I was outside kinda working and remember the plane taking off. It's one of a few turbos here. If I had noticed/heard a problem with the engines during take off I would have looked up. I'm the nearest home to the runway on the Shell Beach side. Maybe 3 miles from the crash site and never heard a thing until I got a phone call from a friend at the crash site an hour or so after. I understand there are a lot of you that have a genuine interest in this but I am uncomfortable, right now, talking about it. I wish peace to all family and friends of the pilot.

mtgoat666 - 11-5-2008 at 06:35 PM

Why do people expect that everything on the internet should be free? :?:

I told my phone company that my DSL service should be given to me for free. They told me to pound sand :(

I told my cable TV company they should provide free basic cable, an I would pay if I chose premium channel. They too told me to pound sand :(

So yesterday I voted for a socialist, and he won!

Soon everything will be free, and the elitists will foot the bill for me and my free-loading compatriots :lol::lol::lol:

fishbuck - 11-5-2008 at 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Russ
I was outside kinda working and remember the plane taking off. It's one of a few turbos here. If I had noticed/heard a problem with the engines during take off I would have looked up. I'm the nearest home to the runway on the Shell Beach side. Maybe 3 miles from the crash site and never heard a thing until I got a phone call from a friend at the crash site an hour or so after. I understand there are a lot of you that have a genuine interest in this but I am uncomfortable, right now, talking about it. I wish peace to all family and friends of the pilot.


Thanks for the info. I'm sure it is very disturbing. If I wasn't a bit disturbed by it I wouldn't be interested.
I think we know all there is to know for now anyway.
Very tragic.

dtbushpilot - 11-5-2008 at 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Why do people expect that everything on the internet should be free? :?:

I told my phone company that my DSL service should be given to me for free. They told me to pound sand :(

I told my cable TV company they should provide free basic cable, an I would pay if I chose premium channel. They too told me to pound sand :(

So yesterday I voted for a socialist, and he won!

Soon everything will be free, and the elitists will foot the bill for me and my free-loading compatriots :lol::lol::lol:



"We'll all be drinkin free Bubble-Up, and eatin that rainbow stew......Merl Haggard......dt

Sorry for the hijack but I've had that song stuck in my head since the election....

[Edited on 11-6-2008 by dtbushpilot]

i think the reference was to turbine engines

capt. mike - 11-6-2008 at 07:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thebajarunner
""in 27 years of flying to popular places like the Serenidad i can count on 1/2 a hand the number of different turbo props i have seen there - and mostly it is the same one, a nice aero commander 680 whose owner has a place on the hill before the turn to Posada. ""


In the early 80's I flew my 210T (N222T) several times into Serinadad.
Had a friend who was interested in resurrecting the mess at Punta Chivato, but in the end he lost interest.
Guess I must have used up most of those fingers you were counting


not turbo charged pistons which are a dime a dozen in baja.
what i was saying was in response to some one who was implying that BBP guys were a bunch of turbine operators which is not the case proportionally.

Switch gears.....fishbuck - read DT bushpilot's 1st post on this thread - he said succinctly what i left out. $49 is chicken feed compared to what you spend flying and goes to a great cause if you would agree baja flying benefits from some level of group support to keep fees in check, and benefits from group activities including search and rescue, mechanical assistance, medical charity to the impoverished and serious relief efforts. Besides comraderie with really fun and adventurous people.

I applaud DT's offer to pay your dues for a year but must say if you join with his money it speaks volumes. And if you don't become a member but continue to enjoy baja by air that's fine too - you aren't the only pilot that plies the southern skies as a non member. i meet them frequently all over baja - they are the ones asking questions all the time - and i am glad to help them out - many join us.

i burn 14 an hour in cruise. what about you? in 45 minutes or so of flying i spend in fuel alone the equivalent of a year's support to a great organization of which i am extremely proud to be a member. i flew about 130 hours last year. My dues were a pittance.

regards the Beech 200 crash, there is no more info currently on BBP than has been spilled here so all of you who are of "inquiring minds" who want to know, well you know as much as i do now. RIP Jim Minear.

i leave fri morning on a medical charity flight to our Lopez Mateo clinic with about 10 other BBP pilots and their planes loaded with medicos. I invite you to ride along Fishbuck and see what we do and meet some great guys. maybe i can change your mind about joining and helping the BBP keep on doing whatb they do.:light:

Not true Mike

beercan - 11-6-2008 at 08:23 AM

After the "new trip fee" was instituted in 1999, private air travel fell by approximately 75%. I didn't fly my Bird into Mexico for 3 years. I was the first private plane thru Mexicali with the "new annual permit" in 2002. The situation existed for almost 3 years .
Quote:
by Mike
that went on for a full year before BBP's efforts alone got it repealed to become an annual multi entry permit. Maybe you weren't a baja flyer then. Well at $56 a trip ADDED on i guess you wouldn't have gone often if you can't cough up a lousy $50 a year for a proven support organization.

Diver - 11-6-2008 at 08:24 AM

Just read this thread; very good posts from DT and the Captain.
I never got beyond my first three flight lessons 30 years ago but I'm going to join BBP anyway.
When I used to view for free, it was a great resource for Baja info; well worth the price !!
.

Sorry , Mike , but myself and several others

beercan - 11-6-2008 at 08:29 AM

laughed at many of the posts on the site. Ford even guffawed at them . There were some interesting and informative posts , but many were so stupid you had to wonder which cereal box they got their license from. I wouldn't fly with them.
Quote:
by Mike
But it is quality not quantity which counts, contrary to most free open sites I participate in, including this one.

Haven't flown with me yet !

beercan - 11-6-2008 at 08:36 AM

Quote:
By Nena
I would not want to fly Baja with a private pilot who shunned BBP membership. nena

i know - and Ford usually emailed me

capt. mike - 11-6-2008 at 09:08 AM

when someone would insert foot in mouth.....a certain Mooney driver comes to mind..:lol::lol::lol: and we'd share good laughs over it.
but really Bob, those posts are in the minority taken on the whole. you have a few knuckleheads on all web forums. how about the off topic here for guffaws!! and they are on these sections too.:lol::lol::lol:
i forgot the entry tax went 3 years before Jack got it chhanged though. i was still flying south several times a year though. hope to see you south soon Bob.
Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
laughed at many of the posts on the site. Ford even guffawed at them . There were some interesting and informative posts , but many were so stupid you had to wonder which cereal box they got their license from. I wouldn't fly with them.

Quote:
by Mike
But it is quality not quantity which counts, contrary to most free open sites I participate in, including this one.