BajaNomad - The word BAJA and other Americanism

The word BAJA and other Americanism

Speedy Gonzalez - 5-22-2004 at 02:37 AM

Looking at the different history threads in this forum I notice that many of you refer to US-American authors and US-American books when it comes to the history of the Mexican peninsula Baja California.

Nobody ever mentions for instance Ignacio Del Rio, that is considered the expert of Baja Californian history here in Mexico.

As we are in a historic interest forum you should be aware that some US-American authors have created in some points an image and terms of Baja California that doesn't correspond to what we Mexicans think or believe. Some US-Americans therefore are making - probably without knowing or wanting - their own history.

The worst example for me is the word...

BAJA
Most US-Americans just talk about BAJA when it comes to Baja California. Unfortunately even some of the younger generation here in Baja California have started to just use Baja.
But in Spanish it doesn't make a lot of sense to just talk of Baja. "Vivo en Baja" would be "I live in Lower". Maybe people from Baja California, Sinaloa and Sonora would understand what somebody is talking about who pretends to be from "Lower". Most other Mexicans would just shake their head and ask "What are you talking about?"

Go to Central-, South America or Spain and say "Tengo amigos en Baja" (I have friends in Lower). Nobody would know what you are talking about because it simply doesn't make any sense. Actually it even sounds rather stupid...

Or quite funny also companies like BAJA JOE. Translated "Come down Joe!" or "Take down Joe!"

It is the same with CABO for Cabo San Lucas. Eventhough it makes more sense to be from the "Cape" than from "Lower".

Most of you consider the name BAJA to be normal for the peninsula of Baja California and there is of course no way that this will be changed. US-Americans have called Baja California for to many years just BAJA. And as mentioned even many young Mexican people start to just call it BAJA forgetting the historic back part CALIFORNIA.

Never mind, I won't change the world... But at least when you are using the word BAJA you should be aware that this is a term created by US-Americans. It has nothing to do with our National Mexican history or geography.

Don't missunderstand my post. I have nothing against US-authors or US-books but I find it a bit odd that they somehow have taken the freedom to change the name of our peninsula...

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]

Response to Speedy Gonzalez

academicanarchist - 5-22-2004 at 05:59 AM

You need to understand one thing, that it is very common in the U.S. to shorten the names of cities or areas, to make kind of slang nick names. It is bit showing disrespect for Mexico or the residents of Baja California. Let me give you several examples. Los Angeles is commonly known as LA, and people understand the reference. San Francisco is sometimes referred to Frisco. New York is the Big Apple. In the same way that people in Mexico commonly refer to Mexico CIty as "DF."
In terms of citing people like Ignacio del Rio, this is not the forum where people will commonly know of him. Many of the Norte Americans who post here do not have a complete knowledge of Spanish, and are not a part of the academic world. Unless they are fluent in Spanish, people interested in Baja California history will look for something written in English. As a scholar, I am familiar with the works of Mexican historians, and am I familiar with the works of Ignacio del Rio. There are many Mexican historians who are also familiar with my publications, and I have published articles in Mexico. You are really in the wrong venue to be raising that question. There is a conference that takes place, if I remember correctly, every 3 or 4 years, that is know as the Mexicanist conference. It really is a meeting of historians primarily from Mexico, the U.S., and Canada. The location of the conference alternates between a city in Mexico and the U.S.. The last meeting was in Monterrey. It is a large meeting where historians from all three countries meet, and get to know each other. At one of the meetings I met, for example, a Mexican historian named Cecelia Sheridan. It was really funny, because she was familiar with my publications, and thought that I was actually much older than I really am. It turned out that we are both the same age.
So, your point is not really valid in this venue. You can not expect Gringos who enjoy visiting Baja California because of its stark beauty to be familiar with the academic publications of Mexican historians. When you have read my publications on Baja California, come back and discuss again the historiography of the region.

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by academicanarchist]

David K - 5-22-2004 at 07:26 AM

It must really drive you nuts to hear 'Viva Baja' then?

No disrespect intended... It is because we love the peninsula so! AA addressed the habit of all people to shorten names. Here, not only is Los Angeles 'L A', but a Low Rider magazine even went as far as to make the abbreviation a Spanish name: El LEY (too funny)!

Some people are really irritated by the term 'The Baja' (The Lower). This is really popular with the Canadians. It may come from their close association with England where The Sudan, The Kalahari, The Sahara are common geographic terms, dropping the word desert.
Here, 'The Baja' has been used to describe the famous off road races... as in "The tire that beat the Baja" was a slogan used by Sears tires in the 60's and early 70's (Iced High Karate aftershave did as well).

They are all shortened terms for 'the Baja peninsula' or Baja California. Another way to consider the abbreviated name as a possitive is that 'Baja' is so famous it doesn't need California added to it (any more).

In 1974, there was a movement to change the names of the two states in fact. Baja California Sur was going to be Sudcalifornia (Southern California) and the northern half was going to become Juarez. Because the people of Baja California loved the name and the popularity of the term 'Baja' was so great the idea was scrapped. I hear Mexicans calling their state 'Baja' all the time, without California attached.
Yes, 'baja' in English means lower... but "Baja" all by itself conjurs up images of adventure, beautiful beaches, world class fishing, a great place to vacation and more. That is successful marketing!

Viva Baja Speedy!

language

aldosalato - 5-22-2004 at 07:41 AM

language is just a social convention. It evolves and change with time and people.
Look at Spanglish and you have an answer where Baja is going...........

bajalou - 5-22-2004 at 09:36 AM

As aldosalato mentioned, language and the use/meaning of words continualy change. I am one that often says "the Baha". For me it means the Baja California Peninsula and the image I have in my mind. The wonderful countryside and the people. It is a place in my mind as well as the planet. It is a feeling as well as a place, a world away from the "Old Country" that I came from. While all this might not make sence to lyou it does to me. I llive here, and can think of nowhere esle I'd rather be.

:biggrin:

This elitist crap.........

Tucker - 5-22-2004 at 09:50 AM

of insisting on "Baja" (incorrect to begin with) tends to make a person wonder how the world ever existed without the gringo spin doctors!

Egualmente Lou

jrbaja - 5-22-2004 at 09:54 AM

wuldn change it fer nuttin! :lol:

bajalera - 5-22-2004 at 01:24 PM

I certainly would have mentioned Ignacio del Rio Chavez, Speedy, if I had realized you were keeping score. In addition to several shorter articles on the peninsula, he's written an interesting book on the acculturation that occurred during the mission period. I'll have to add, though, that as a source of Jesuit info I prefer Miguel del Barco's account of his years on the peninsula, largely because of the material added by editor Miguel Leon-Portilla (who also did a fine job on Clavijero's book).

Are we going to be graded on this course, or what?

As for "Baja," it seems to have started out as a gringo condensation, back in the days when scarcely any Mexican tourists ever visited the place. But Mexico's federal department of tourism now uses "Baja" in ads--probably because "Baja California" is a mouthful that has no snap at all. Turismo also promotes "Los Cabos"--which I personally don't like, but it's a far more practical way to identify this tourist destination than "The San Jose del Cabo and Cabo San Lucas Area."

People tend to simplify the languages they use, whether we like it or not. Might as well save your ammo for a more important conflict.

bajalera

Bajalera

jrbaja - 5-22-2004 at 02:52 PM

That "Lera " is a character isn't she ??? :lol:

I can't think of anybody I would rather have accompany me on one of the trips. Keep healthy girl and let's go!!!!!!!

Speedy. I'm very interested to learn more from a Mexican National perspective...

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-22-2004 at 03:01 PM

As mentioned, many Canadians refer to Baja California as Baja to shorten it, however it is important to consider what you are saying in your post, as it is your country that we are referencing.

When I talk to my friends from Canada about my journeys to various areas of Mexico, I always try to reference the full name of the area just in case they want to look it up when they get home. I use the north and south terms when I mention the areas that I have camped, such as Playa Los Cerritos, just south of Pescadero and Todos Santos in Baja California Sur or the southern state of Baja California in Mexico, so they know I am talking about the southern portion of the 1000 mile long peninsula that belongs to Mexico.

The word California somehow implies to some Canadians that it is part of the state of California from the USA, and it can be confusing, so I make sure they know that Baja California is not part of the USA. I guess they never paid too much attention in school.

If history was different, I'd be driving 600 miles south from where I live in British Columbia Canada, and I'd be in the most northwestern state in Mexico. If I recall my history of the Republic of Mexico, at one time Mexico's boundaries extended all the way up into the state of Oregon. That's not that far from British Columbia. We have a term up here called the country of Concordia, which would be the third largest trading nation in the world and completely self sufficient.

A combining of Alaska, Yukon, Alberta, British Columbia, Washington state, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, California and the the two states of Baja California. All the resources, oil, food crops, wheat, fising, hydro power, water, ports etc.

It will never happen.

Geography and history is very important in Canada, and most every Canadian learns more about other countries, the history and geography of those countries from elementary school right through to high school. And most can name over 80% of the states in the U.S.A and the major cities. They also learn about Mexico and can probably name many of the states, and probably many of the major cities.

I doubt it goes the other way for most people from the USA and Mexico learning about Canada and naming all our Canadian provinces and major cities. Not sure exactly why that is, but I guess it's because there is so much for our southern neighbors to learn about their own countries, and that leaves little time for them to learn about Canada.

It is a source of joking up here in Canada. We export many of our comedians to the USA. Many people think the top comedians in the USA are native to the USA, but many of them come from Canada and ventured south to the USA for a bigger market.

The host of 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes', a very popular show in Canada, often travels to the USA and asks basic questions about Canada from people living in the USA. It is halarious as to what answers they come up with. Very comical. But you would have to be Canadian to get the humour.

Most just give blank stares. It's almost as if we Canadians are on another planet, rather than being a neighboring country to the USA. If he went further south to various areas of Mexico, or even to some of the Universities in Mexico City, I think the host would get many of the same blank stares when asking the same questions about Canada.

I have experienced this, as I have been to many software industry conferences in Mexico City. But we never get upset over it. We take the time to educate if people from another country want to learn about Canada. But we do have our fun with it first.

But that is not to say that all people from the USA and Mexico are that way about their knowledge of Canada. In fact many are quite knowledgeable about Canada, and some more so than some bozzo Canadians. Mainly because they have taken an interest in Canada, and have made many friendships with Canadians who have vacationed or lived in the USA and Mexico.

We all have much to learn about each other's country of origin, and the many customs and history, and that is what is good about this message board. An area to ask questions and learn.

I get a kick out of people referencing Canada as the Great White North. While traveling in the southern states of the USA (Texas and Arizona) and into eastern Mexico and the Yucatan peninsula a few years ago, I would always here this one:

You live way up north, don't you? I heard it's really cold up there. How do you get around with all the snow?

I know they are referring to Canada, but it does make me laugh that we all live in the tundra and Arctic Circle area of northern Canada. Most people in Canada live within 100 to 150 miles of the Canada/USA border and one the west (vancouver) and east coastal areas and the St. Lawrence seaway and Great Lakes Region. Most other parts of Canada are sparesly populated.

It's almost as if some of people from our two southern neighboring countries think we all live in igloos and ride snowmobiles to work and school all year around. So I have a little fun and toy with it. I tell my US American and Mexican friends that us Canadians or Canucks all have a custom to rub noses with each other as a greeting, and that most every household has at least three pairs of snowshoes, one snowmobile, a snow blower, and one pet moose.

But Canadians do tend to shorten things down alot. Especially the term Baja. On this board, I think many people just say Baja because everyone thinks that most people know what area is being referenced in their posts.

Aside from all this, I would very much like to see more information on the history of the two states of Baja California from a Mexican national perspective. One can always learn from that most important perspective. :yes:

RandyMac

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]

The I AM Canadian Rant from Molson Canadian Beer fame...

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-22-2004 at 03:37 PM

Maybe one of the large Cervesa (Beer Makers) from Mexico will make a similar video about Mexico to promote their beer while pointing out the misconceptions about Mexico?

A few years ago, Molson Canada (our largest beer maker) made a 60-second beer commercial that captured the hearts, souls, and minds of Canadians - French and English-speaking alike.

It's become very popular for us usually mild-mannered Canadians, and Joe in the beer commercial gets us Canucks in touch with our inner patriots, as he pokes fun at the typical misconceptions about our country by Americans from the USA.

http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-72891/CanadianClub/CCsales/ad.htm...

Canadians generally like to laugh alot. It gets real cold in these igloos ya know.

The I AM Rant:

Hey.
I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader,and I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dog sled, and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada, although I'm certain they're really, really nice.

I have a Prime Minister, not a President. I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it 'about', not 'a boot'.

I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack. I believe in peacekeeping, not policing. Diversity, not assimilation, and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal.

A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch, and it is pronounced 'zed' not 'zee' ... 'ZED'!!!

Canada is the second largest land mass! The first nation of hockey! And the best part of North America!

My name is Joe!! And I am Canadian!

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]

Nikon - 5-22-2004 at 03:38 PM

This was an amusing rant by a pedant, but it did put me of a mind in the scene in "Easy Rider" when the bikers are sitting down to eat as guests of a family in the deep country, and the host asks Peter Fonda where he's from. "LA" is the reply; never having heard this bastardization of the name, assuming a quizzical expression, he asks "El Lay?". "Los Angeles", he's told.

It was just a subtle statement to demonstrate how far back in the woods they'd come to get to this place.
Maybe you had to be there. . .

Nikon. We Canucks joke about the movie Deliverance...

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-22-2004 at 04:02 PM

when someone mentions that they travelled to the southern USA in areas such as Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama.

It's just that back woods impression that movies can imply about an area.

My mother's family came from Tennessee and Virginia. I learned alot about the southern states from the many old books that my grandparents had in a cabinet. One day I'll venture that way and check it out. Backwoods and deliverance?

Good movie. We are heavily influenced by the USA up here in Canada, because of TV and movies, so we learn alot about the USA.

The more I can learn about Baja California and it's history etc, the better.

And as for the I AM Rant, Molson has a new beer commercial on the same theme line but I can't find it. We get Molson I AM Canadian T-Shirts in our cases of beer, so I give many of them away while I'm in the Baja California.

about

bajalou - 5-22-2004 at 04:42 PM

I've seen the tee shirts RandyMac and have to disagree with one part only - the Canadians I know who come here in the winter do say "aboot", at least to these USofA ears.

:biggrin:

Yes. There are vast differences in the way Canadians pronounce...

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-22-2004 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
I've seen the tee shirts RandyMac and have to disagree with one part only - the Canadians I know who come here in the winter do say "aboot", at least to these USofA ears.

:biggrin:

certain words in various parts of Canada. I had a contract in Eastern Canada in Fredericton New Brunswick the eastern province just above and to the east of Maine. While there, I was told that my pronunciation and accent from western Canada was funny. And I noticed their accent as being different than from western Canada. Very Celtic, whic I quite enjoy, as I am a big Celtic music fan.

The IAM C video was created by Molson back in eastern Canada, in metro Toronto. Most of the Canadians that drive to the Baja California do so from British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatewan, and yes a few do drive from Manitoba and maybe Ontario and Quebec. But the majority of people who drive to the Baja California area are western Canadians.

And I did notice that some (a handful) of the BC motorhomes contained the most obnoxious people I had ever met. It was embarrassing, as Canadians are generally well liked for being easy going kind people. It was especially noticable with a few, and I do place emphasis on a few Canadians who parked their rigs at Playa Huncolito near Loreto and at Playa Los Cerritos near Todos Santos.

Too bad. Giving us fun loving Canucks a bad name.

The typical fights over my beach space ownership thingy and my rig is bigger and better than your rig. And being very disrespectful of the local people. Thankfully these buttheads didn't wear any I Am Canadian Ts. They come in XX large but they wouldn't fit some of these wads.

I shouldn't say this, but a few of us Canucks staying down there for the winter got a little whipped up on the ice cold wobbly pops one day and went over at night to where they were parked and wazzed on their rig tires. I little childish, I must say, but definitely worth it for the color. Color, is a term we use use up here for fun. Kind of marking out our territory as a reminder to stay in line with the be a good Canuck ways.

:spingrin:

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]

Mexitron - 5-23-2004 at 09:48 AM

Thats news to me ......I really did think Canadiens all lived in igloos.........eh? :biggrin:

When ya come ta Canada stop in for a wee pint...

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-23-2004 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Thats news to me ......I really did think Canadiens all lived in igloos.........eh? :biggrin:

of ice beer or an hot Irish coffee.....

:lol:

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]

AHA ! We new it Randy

jrbaja - 5-23-2004 at 11:46 AM

Isn't that Dudley and Sweet Nell in the trees back there ? :lol:

daveB - 5-23-2004 at 01:19 PM

RandyMac, looks like an old house of mine, traded off years ago for a gross of snow cones :lol:

Don't call it Frisco...

thebajarunner - 5-23-2004 at 01:25 PM

Just because we imperial Americans have gotten away with reducing their noble name to simply "Baja" doesn't make it right. (By the way, I too have succumbed to this unfortunate abbreviation.)
20 years ago when I was a member of the Commission of the Californias, there was a real push by those from both BCN and BCS to purge this appellation from the vernacular, alas, they failed.
The same folks who brought you Sandy Eggo, and Loss Anjuluss now present you with "Baja."

Baja Arriba!!

(by the by, that is why I always sign off with the slightly absurd notation as per above.... just seems right to leave it a bit wrong, doesn't it??)

jr and davidb

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-23-2004 at 01:34 PM

another good laugh. Haven't had a snow cone in years. I can still remember the look on my mom and dad's faces when that music from the snow cone truck would come down the street, way back in the 60's.

I'm thinkin of trading er for a Yurt somewhere near Todos Santos and the beach, and a year supply of XXs. Just waitin for the right offer.
:lol:

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]

Randy

jrbaja - 5-23-2004 at 02:06 PM

I'm thinkin within a little dry ice and newspaper, you might have a good thing going with that business in Todos Santos. They are all " artists" down there ya know. :lol:

What is this place called?

Packoderm - 5-23-2004 at 03:08 PM

Here is something interesting:

http://www.oceanoasis.org/fieldguide/manynames.html

by Judy Gibson, Botany Department, SDNHM

Anyone interested in Baja California soon discovers that the same region or locality may be called by different names at different times, by different people, or on different maps. Sometimes this reflects the languages of the speakers?Spanish, English, and indigenous Indian languages. Sometimes it's a result of historical and political changes in what certain areas are called. And sometimes it might even be a result of misspellings or mispronunciations being passed down through time.

While we've tried to be consistent within any section of this site, it hasn't been possible to choose one "authoritative" usage throughout?because even the authorities disagree! Certainly the writers of the different sections do. Below is an attempt to sort out some of the names.

The Peninsula of Baja California

In the oldest European history of the region?when most of western North America was part of the Spanish colony of Mexico, and the peninsula to the west had just been discovered and was little explored?the name "California" was applied to all of the peninsula and what is now the state of California in the United States. At some point this large region was divided into Alta (Upper) California?the continental portion which became the state of California, and Baja (Lower) California?the peninsular portion which remained as part of Mexico.

Things became more complicated when the peninsular portion was divided at the 28th parallel into a northern state called Baja California, and a southern territory, Baja California Sur?later to become a state as well. The correct name of the northern state is "Baja California," not "Baja California Norte." The easiest analogy for Americans is that it's like the names of Virginia and West Virginia. No state of East Virginia was created when Virginia was divided.

The problem, of course, is that if the northern state is called "Baja California," then what do we call the whole peninsula with two Mexican states? If a scientific report refers to "the plants of Baja California," does it mean of the whole peninsula or only half of it? And if you say "peninsula," does that include the nearby islands?

It's best to be explicit: "the State of Baja California," "the Baja California peninsula." Some prefer the old-fashioned "Lower California" as clearly referring to the peninsula and its islands, and not to the state. Incidentally, using "Baja" alone raises eyebrows as being the ungrammatical use of an adjective as if it were a noun (for example, one wouldn't refer to New York as just "New").

The Binational Geological Region

Ignoring the political boundaries, another problem is trying to find a name for the geological unit to the west of the San Andreas faultline. "Peninsular California" is one solution; somewhat less satisfactory is "greater Baja California."

The Gulf and its Islands

The body of water that separates the peninsula from mainland Mexico has two names, and both are used in both English and Spanish.

One is "Gulf of California," or "Golfo de California." The other is "Sea of Cort?s," or "Mar de Cort?s." Scholars tell us that the name of the explorer for whom the sea is named is correctly spelled with an "s" rather than a "z" (that is, "Cortez" is a historic misspelling).

It's also important to be aware that most of the islands in the Gulf have been known over the years by more than one name?so that for example, if you see a reference in different sources to a species being found only on a particular island, but the references name different islands, it may simply be that they're using two different names for the same island. The only solution to this problem is a list of synonyms.

David K - 5-23-2004 at 03:15 PM

Excellent Packoderm, thanks!

Packoderm - 5-23-2004 at 03:17 PM

De nada, compa.

Good article packoderm

RandyMacSC/SO - 5-23-2004 at 05:34 PM

We could change the names

TMW - 5-24-2004 at 07:19 AM

We could change Alta and Baja California and Baja Califiornia Sur to No-Cal and So-Cal, but that would be infringing on Jim Rome's sport show language. Just a thought.

To: academicanarchist

Speedy Gonzalez - 5-24-2004 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist
Many of the Norte Americans who post here do not have a complete knowledge of Spanish, and are not a part of the academic world. Unless they are fluent in Spanish, people interested in Baja California history will look for something written in English. ( ) You are really in the wrong venue to be raising that question.

Lo siento mucho entonces... Sorry then... :no:

You somehow confirm what I was trying to say: many visitors of this forum (that discuss history) have their knowledges from US publications. Many therefore have an image of Baja California and Mexico from an US point of view which sometimes doesn't correspond to what we say, think or believe in Mexico.

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist
So, your point is not really valid in this venue. You can not expect Gringos who enjoy visiting Baja California because of its stark beauty to be familiar with the academic publications of Mexican historians.

Well, why shouldn't those people who write about history in this historic forum, not also have a look at Mexican publications... ? As I can see you also expect me to read your books...

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist
When you have read my publications on Baja California, come back and discuss again the historiography of the region.

Muchas gracias... I still have enough to read with the Mexican publications at the moment

Sound like this forum about the Mexican peninsula Baja California is thought to be for US-Americans (and maybe Canadians) only... :?:

I therefore leave this platform after a short presence. Have a good time all together!

Adios a todos! Que se diviertan con su foro sobre la historia de mi peninsula! Fue un placer estar con ustedes.

JESSE - 5-24-2004 at 01:00 PM

I don't think theres nothing wrong with calling Baja California "Baja", after all, we Mexicans are perhaps, Latin Americas leading promoters of the bad use of the Spanish Castillian language.

We refer to the U.S.A as "el otro lado", "los states","gringolandia" etc etc, so theres nothing wrong with them saying Baja.

Eli - 5-24-2004 at 01:47 PM

Well, I certainly do thank Speedy G. for again giving me something to consider that really I just took for granted before. I am as guilty of cutting the California off of Baja as anyone that I know. Anyway, I expect that as much as I will always think of Don Jimmy and cringe/chuckle when I hear "The Baja", well, Speedy, you also have entered my conciseness with your concern that we stay respectfully formal when we ever we refer to Baja California. Must say that I sure have enjoyed reading all the valid perspectives that Sr. Speedy's reflection provoked, a lot of good thoughts have been presented on the subject!

My own vision on this being that the Northern states of Mexico, as well as the Southwest of E.U.A. are inhabitant by a dual citizenry reflecting the cultures of both sides of the boarder; Baja California is not exclusively Mexican culture, anymore, than Alta California is "Just the gringo way or the highway", both sides of the boarder have been influenced by this homogeny of cultures that creates new language and cultural perspectives that are indicative to the two worlds merging. When one refers to going to "Baja", or say that they live in "Baja", that is a casual perspective reflecting So-Cal slang., I see no mal intent perpetuated by this casualness.

Well, there goes another one.

jrbaja - 5-24-2004 at 02:12 PM

Let's see if those Gringo patriots can chase off Pemex, El Rosario so that the information provided here is just to your liking rather than factual information. :lol:

Good work boys, another u.s.victory. You should be proud. :lol:

To Eli

academicanarchist - 5-24-2004 at 04:03 PM

I would say that the international border is an artificial construct that seperates two regions that have more in common.

David K - 5-24-2004 at 04:48 PM

Speedy, don't run off because we don't all do things your way... This forum is a community. Mostly English speaking people who love Baja California (peninsula and both states). It is a learning and teaching web site. You need to be a little flexible or just take from here what you need.

You had a good arguement that El Camino Real was never the name used by the missionaries. I provided proof that the Franciscans and Dominicans did call it that, but I was willing to concede that the Jesuits did not.

You persisted that the burro trails in Baja never were Camino Reales because they didn't look like the Camino Reales in mainland Mexico. I then found evidence that indeed even the Jesuits called their roads Camino Real and provided documentation. You dismissed that evidence, too.

As friendly as I hope to be with you, you just seem very inflexible. By saying you are leaving us it is kind of like you came to our game to play, we invite you to join, then you want us to change the game to your rules...?

JR is even blaming us because you don't want to play?

Speedy, as you do not seem to understand that 'Baja' is different than the rest of Mexico, may I ask where are you from and how long have you lived in Baja?

I really hope you don't go and that everyone can benefit from our exchanges... I certainly learned more about the naming of El Camino Real, thanks to you... Heck, I even talked about you to Harry Crosby in my email to him regarding your statements. I am sure you can benefit from being here as well.

Think about it amigo,
Gracias/Thank you/ or?

Well golly DK

jrbaja - 5-24-2004 at 06:00 PM

since you put it like that, perhaps I was a littly hasty. Sorry.
From a different perspective, The true Mexicans I know don't ever argue, dispute, whine, snivel or place themselves in a position to do so. They walk away.
Speedy I am sure was not used to this type of "conversation" and was more than likely, taken aback by it.
I hope that he realizes that it was nothing personal and comes back "aboard". I personally will miss the input from another perspective.
You really need to learn Spanish though!! :lol:

Adios (addy-yoss) Speedy

thebajarunner - 5-24-2004 at 06:17 PM

My Alta California Hispanic hermanos will be relieved to see you go, actually. It came as some surprise to me several years ago that my brown eyed brethren around here are very offended by the cartoon character "Speedy Gonzalez" > a fact that I had previously refrained from pointing out to you.
Now that this name is gone from our board, some of my boys can relax...

Baja Arriba!!

Speedy Was Right

Margie - 5-24-2004 at 11:10 PM

I agree with Speedy Gonzalez, this just really seems like an American Campo mentality here. Too bad.

David K - 5-24-2004 at 11:54 PM

JR, I do speak Spanish... maybe not fluently and not all words, but daily none the less. My assistant is from Oaxaca and won't speak English... won't even try (but I think he understands most everything). I even have been chatting (MSN chat) in Spanish with a Mexicali businessman who owns a guest ranch near Laguna Hanson... invited me to have a Viva Baja party there (sounds great to me). My computer has been down for a couple weeks... so no contact lately. I have invited him to our Matomi campout at Nuevo Mazatlan and the book signing...

Anyway, this is an English speaking discussion board for Baja California related subjects. I don't know why you think Spanish is some kind of qualifyer for posting here. Speedy Gonzalez could have been from Armenia as far as we know? Mexicans don't think that character is politically correct. They even managed to kill the Frito Bandito... "ay yai yai yai, I love Fritos corn chips I love them I do... I love them so much, I take them from you!"

Personally, I have fun speaking as much Spanish as I can while in Baja. If I can swing it, Keith Rolles has invited me to train at the Baja California Language College in Ensenada... I do want to get better. ?Quiero aprender mas!

Packoderm - 5-25-2004 at 12:11 AM

As you can see on this linked posted below, I was calling it by the proper terminology even way back when.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=282

Packoderm - 5-25-2004 at 12:18 AM

Or maybe I should have called it "The peninsula consisting of the Mexican states Baja California Norte and Baja California Sur." I'll call it by that name each and every time I mention the region if you really insist; I really will.

[Edited on 11/21/2003 by Packoderm]

David K - 5-25-2004 at 12:21 AM

You're a good man Packo!

So, how was turkey vulture? Any good? :lol:

Packoderm - 5-25-2004 at 12:21 AM

Or does it have to be in Spanish? If that is the case, I'll need some help with the translation.

Packoderm - 5-25-2004 at 12:24 AM

DK, to tell you the truth, I think it's a "thrill of the hunt" sort of thing really.

But really, the reason I called it "The Baja California peninsula" was so that I could put "The" in front of "Baja" and get away with it.

[Edited on 11/21/2003 by Packoderm]

Packoderm adds 'the' to Baja ...

David K - 5-25-2004 at 01:11 AM

That's so you wouldn't be mistaken for a Canadian, eh? What a hoser you are! Heading south to the Baja, eh? It's aboot time, I say! Don't forget the backbacon and your touque, eh!

Speedy Gonzalez

academicanarchist - 5-25-2004 at 05:32 AM

It's a shame that SG decided that he had to leave, but I viewed his position as being out of line. As I posted earlier, I think it totally unreasonable to expect casual visitors to Baja California or Mexico to be familiar with the historical literature written by Mexican historians. As a published historian, I do know of the works of people like Ignacio del Rio, one individual that SG mentioned by name. At the same time, if he chids gringos for not knowing Mexican historians, he should be equally familiar with what historians on this side of the border have written, something he apparently is unwilling to do. A bit of a hypocritical double standard to my way of thinking. What he implied is that only Mexican historians know the history of Mexico. My story about the Mexicanist conference was to make a point he missed or more probably chose to ignore. Academics on both sides of the border routinely get together to converse, and are not hung up with the type of mentality evidence by our friend SG.

Speedy do not leave

aldosalato - 5-25-2004 at 06:56 AM

Opinion from any native Mexican is very much welcomed on the board.
Just because we disagree on something it does not mean we can learn a lot from you.

Let me spell it out for you. Again

jrbaja - 5-25-2004 at 07:17 AM

What the gringos are doing is ignoring some relevant information that is published in Spanish. And there is a lot.
This is why I said you need to learn Spanish David because you are writing about their history.
AA, you should be very proud to have your ideas published. But, what do the Mexican people think of your writings? It sounds as if you connect with the Mexican historians to compile your work.
What I was saying originally and Speedy was concurring politely, you are writing information knowing only half the facts and from only one side. And a side that lied about their own history as well.
Seems to have worked really well with the gringo map books which are all wrong in many places, so I suppose that the same applies for the history of Baja. A bunch of incomplete or wrong information being published by gringos that have only spent a few vacations in Baja and don't speaka da language or even care what the people it's being written about think.
Very George Bush like. One day, somebodies gonna look ! That is, if he doesn't decide Mexico is concealing weapons of mass destruction,have you sent any down here Mike?, and takes over another part of the world.

Gringo map books?

David K - 5-25-2004 at 07:38 AM

JR, maybe I will let you buy the pastrami! The Baja Almanac http://www.baja-almanac.com and the former Baja Topo Atlas use MEXICAN government topographic maps. I have some actual Mexican made topos and the SAME mistakes you see in the (gringo published) Almanac are in the original MEXICAN drawn maps. When the new Almanac came out, I posted a list of errors I spotted at the time. Switching arroyo names is one thing, but switching entire bay names (S.L.Gonzaga/Ens. de S. Fran) is pretty bad. Between San Agustin and Catavina they didn't even survey the location of the new highway, instead they just showed the old roadbed as now paved (the highway is really 1-2 miles south to west of the old road). There are errors in many gringo books, I agree... But the gringo made map books just reproduced Mexican made maps into handy book form. With their many mistakes, they still are best maps to use to explore the peninsula, IMHO.

Also, I write about places I visit and what I see there. If I write historic articles, I quote from or credit published authors. Mexicans I have met and talked to don't always have all the details or facts correct and just speak of what they believe or was told. People like Harry Crosby, Peter Gerhard, and Robert Jackson did research into the original Spanish records of the period. The people now living at a mission site may not have been able to read those documents...
Ooops, gotta go work, bye!

[Edited on 5-25-2004 by David K]

Well ding dang darn it David

jrbaja - 5-25-2004 at 08:28 AM

This was just starting to get interesting. I am listening to what you are saying. But, I'm leaving tomorrow and you had to go to work. I will have forgotten all about this conversation when I get back so we'll have to start over. :lol:

Or maybe later. Have a good one Amigo.

JrBaja

academicanarchist - 5-25-2004 at 08:51 AM

I have published in a number of countries, in ENglish, Spanish, French, and Portuguese. The impression that I have is that my scholarship is respected in Mexico. Now to the issue at hand. For a person with an avocational interest in history, I do not believe that there is an obligation to read what has been published by Mexican historians, as you imply. That really is a personal choice.

Seems kind of "one sided" to me.

jrbaja - 5-25-2004 at 08:56 AM

Personally, I prefer to know all the available information prior to making any judgements or statements. But that's just me.

Eli - 5-25-2004 at 12:10 PM

A.A., Yes, I agree, the boarder is an artificial line, the cultures are much more merged than many realize.

I went to see an excellent play the other evening about the "Women of Troy". It was an awesome bi-cultural experience, I would give 50/50 - Gringo/National attending. The play was a Modern American Jazz production in Spanish dialog done by local students, directed by non Spanish speaking directors, who did a wonderful job with the kids, it really, really worked for everyone attending! Can you imagine all these local ranchero type Mom's in the audience, Billy Holiday's "Lady sings the Blues" and modern dance and jazz presenting an all time classic social message in regard to the suffrage of Women in relation to the violence of war. Anyway, the kids pulled it off, the directors were great, and we, the audience, all got it, didn't matter what level of education or language skills was represented in the audience.

bajalera - 5-25-2004 at 02:03 PM

Holy Guacamole! The History and Lit Forum has finally got contentious enough to send somebody off into the sunset--just like the Off-Topic section.

Speedy opened an interesting thread--too bad he left before I got around to complaining that the private ownership implicit in his references to "mi peninsula" offended me. Oh well . . .

Lera

Speedy Gonzalez

Margie - 5-25-2004 at 02:07 PM

I just want to add something about "Speedy's" namesake, that some of you, as Mexicans, or Mexican-Americans found offensive.

When we lived in the States, we would buy our firewood from the Mesa Grande Indians. The guy who was in charge, was nicknamed "Tanto". Finally, I had to ask him, why do you take that name? Isn't it derogatory?

He told me he picked up the nickname while he was in the Marines. He told me he kept it, just to let the white eyes know he wasn't stupid or slow, sort of reverse psychology. He also bore the name as a badge of honor and courage, from fighting in Korea.

The same is true of a large number of the black population who refer to themselves with the "N" word. It is their way of saying, this word is meaningless in the context that was used to directly assault us in verbal abuse and to make us feel undignified, We embrace this insult, and use it to our advantage to show what fools you are. They are taking a negative, and turning it into a positive.

I bet you this absolutely makes Strom Thurman and his followers cringe !

[Edited on 5-25-2004 by Margie]

Speedy Gonzalez

academicanarchist - 5-25-2004 at 03:56 PM

Baja[California]lera. SG chose to go, and I am sorry he did. He raised some interesting questions. However, I also think he brought an attitude that I did not particularly like. BUt such is life. I hope he decides to come back.

Norte

bajalou - 5-25-2004 at 04:51 PM

Pac

Where is the Mexican state of "Baja California Norte"?? :biggrin:

Packoderm - 5-25-2004 at 05:13 PM

It is in-between the lost Mexican states of Baja California este and Baja California oeste.

bajalera - 5-27-2004 at 01:02 PM

Margie, are you sure the guy wasn't called "TOnto"?

Lera

California confusion?!?

thebajarunner - 5-28-2004 at 04:15 PM

I guess we call if Baja California, Norte, so we don't confuse it with the Alta California which we stole fair and square and have zero intention of returning to rightful ownership.
Also, those of us who live in the "Real California" call the state where most of you other Nomads live "Southern California" to further distinguish your place from ours.
This Alta Cf. place is actually three separate, distinct states: Southern California, Bay Area, and all the rest of us.
So, when we have friends from the East Coast who wish to visit us we make it perfectly clear that we live in "Real California" not "Southern California" nor "Bay Area California"
Now, if that did not confuse you then let's try again on the BCN and BCS.... those are pretty easy compared to the state of the Gringo State.

Baja Arriba!!