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Speedy Gonzalez
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The word BAJA and other Americanism
Looking at the different history threads in this forum I notice that many of you refer to US-American authors and US-American books when it comes to
the history of the Mexican peninsula Baja California.
Nobody ever mentions for instance Ignacio Del Rio, that is considered the expert of Baja Californian history here in Mexico.
As we are in a historic interest forum you should be aware that some US-American authors have created in some points an image and terms of Baja
California that doesn't correspond to what we Mexicans think or believe. Some US-Americans therefore are making - probably without knowing or wanting
- their own history.
The worst example for me is the word...
BAJA
Most US-Americans just talk about BAJA when it comes to Baja California. Unfortunately even some of the younger generation here in Baja California
have started to just use Baja.
But in Spanish it doesn't make a lot of sense to just talk of Baja. "Vivo en Baja" would be "I live in Lower". Maybe people from Baja California,
Sinaloa and Sonora would understand what somebody is talking about who pretends to be from "Lower". Most other Mexicans would just shake their head
and ask "What are you talking about?"
Go to Central-, South America or Spain and say "Tengo amigos en Baja" (I have friends in Lower). Nobody would know what you are talking about because
it simply doesn't make any sense. Actually it even sounds rather stupid...
Or quite funny also companies like BAJA JOE. Translated "Come down Joe!" or "Take down Joe!"
It is the same with CABO for Cabo San Lucas. Eventhough it makes more sense to be from the "Cape" than from "Lower".
Most of you consider the name BAJA to be normal for the peninsula of Baja California and there is of course no way that this will be changed.
US-Americans have called Baja California for to many years just BAJA. And as mentioned even many young Mexican people start to just call it BAJA
forgetting the historic back part CALIFORNIA.
Never mind, I won't change the world... But at least when you are using the word BAJA you should be aware that this is a term created by US-Americans.
It has nothing to do with our National Mexican history or geography.
Don't missunderstand my post. I have nothing against US-authors or US-books but I find it a bit odd that they somehow have taken the freedom to change
the name of our peninsula...
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
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academicanarchist
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Response to Speedy Gonzalez
You need to understand one thing, that it is very common in the U.S. to shorten the names of cities or areas, to make kind of slang nick names. It is
bit showing disrespect for Mexico or the residents of Baja California. Let me give you several examples. Los Angeles is commonly known as LA, and
people understand the reference. San Francisco is sometimes referred to Frisco. New York is the Big Apple. In the same way that people in Mexico
commonly refer to Mexico CIty as "DF."
In terms of citing people like Ignacio del Rio, this is not the forum where people will commonly know of him. Many of the Norte Americans who post
here do not have a complete knowledge of Spanish, and are not a part of the academic world. Unless they are fluent in Spanish, people interested in
Baja California history will look for something written in English. As a scholar, I am familiar with the works of Mexican historians, and am I
familiar with the works of Ignacio del Rio. There are many Mexican historians who are also familiar with my publications, and I have published
articles in Mexico. You are really in the wrong venue to be raising that question. There is a conference that takes place, if I remember correctly,
every 3 or 4 years, that is know as the Mexicanist conference. It really is a meeting of historians primarily from Mexico, the U.S., and Canada. The
location of the conference alternates between a city in Mexico and the U.S.. The last meeting was in Monterrey. It is a large meeting where historians
from all three countries meet, and get to know each other. At one of the meetings I met, for example, a Mexican historian named Cecelia Sheridan. It
was really funny, because she was familiar with my publications, and thought that I was actually much older than I really am. It turned out that we
are both the same age.
So, your point is not really valid in this venue. You can not expect Gringos who enjoy visiting Baja California because of its stark beauty to be
familiar with the academic publications of Mexican historians. When you have read my publications on Baja California, come back and discuss again the
historiography of the region.
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by academicanarchist]
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David K
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It must really drive you nuts to hear 'Viva Baja' then?  No disrespect
intended... It is because we love the peninsula so! AA addressed the habit of all people to shorten names. Here, not only is Los Angeles 'L A', but a
Low Rider magazine even went as far as to make the abbreviation a Spanish name: El LEY (too funny)!
Some people are really irritated by the term 'The Baja' (The Lower). This is really popular with the Canadians. It may come from their close
association with England where The Sudan, The Kalahari, The Sahara are common geographic terms, dropping the word desert.
Here, 'The Baja' has been used to describe the famous off road races... as in "The tire that beat the Baja" was a slogan used by Sears tires in the
60's and early 70's (Iced High Karate aftershave did as well).
They are all shortened terms for 'the Baja peninsula' or Baja California. Another way to consider the abbreviated name as a possitive is that 'Baja'
is so famous it doesn't need California added to it (any more).
In 1974, there was a movement to change the names of the two states in fact. Baja California Sur was going to be Sudcalifornia (Southern California)
and the northern half was going to become Juarez. Because the people of Baja California loved the name and the popularity of the term 'Baja' was so
great the idea was scrapped. I hear Mexicans calling their state 'Baja' all the time, without California attached.
Yes, 'baja' in English means lower... but "Baja" all by itself conjurs up images of adventure, beautiful beaches, world class fishing, a great place
to vacation and more. That is successful marketing!
Viva Baja Speedy!
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aldosalato
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language
language is just a social convention. It evolves and change with time and people.
Look at Spanglish and you have an answer where Baja is going...........
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bajalou
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As aldosalato mentioned, language and the use/meaning of words continualy change. I am one that often says "the Baha". For me it means the Baja
California Peninsula and the image I have in my mind. The wonderful countryside and the people. It is a place in my mind as well as the planet. It
is a feeling as well as a place, a world away from the "Old Country" that I came from. While all this might not make sence to lyou it does to me. I
llive here, and can think of nowhere esle I'd rather be.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Tucker
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This elitist crap.........
of insisting on "Baja" (incorrect to begin with) tends to make a person wonder how the world ever existed without the gringo spin doctors!
\"I think it would be a good idea.\"
-- Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization
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jrbaja
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Egualmente Lou
wuldn change it fer nuttin!
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bajalera
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I certainly would have mentioned Ignacio del Rio Chavez, Speedy, if I had realized you were keeping score. In addition to several shorter articles on
the peninsula, he's written an interesting book on the acculturation that occurred during the mission period. I'll have to add, though, that as a
source of Jesuit info I prefer Miguel del Barco's account of his years on the peninsula, largely because of the material added by editor Miguel
Leon-Portilla (who also did a fine job on Clavijero's book).
Are we going to be graded on this course, or what?
As for "Baja," it seems to have started out as a gringo condensation, back in the days when scarcely any Mexican tourists ever visited the place. But
Mexico's federal department of tourism now uses "Baja" in ads--probably because "Baja California" is a mouthful that has no snap at all. Turismo also
promotes "Los Cabos"--which I personally don't like, but it's a far more practical way to identify this tourist destination than "The San Jose del
Cabo and Cabo San Lucas Area."
People tend to simplify the languages they use, whether we like it or not. Might as well save your ammo for a more important conflict.
bajalera
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jrbaja
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Bajalera
That "Lera " is a character isn't she ??? I can't think of anybody I would
rather have accompany me on one of the trips. Keep healthy girl and let's go!!!!!!!
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RandyMacSC/SO
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Speedy. I'm very interested to learn more from a Mexican National perspective...
As mentioned, many Canadians refer to Baja California as Baja to shorten it, however it is important to consider what you are saying in your post, as
it is your country that we are referencing.
When I talk to my friends from Canada about my journeys to various areas of Mexico, I always try to reference the full name of the area just in case
they want to look it up when they get home. I use the north and south terms when I mention the areas that I have camped, such as Playa Los Cerritos,
just south of Pescadero and Todos Santos in Baja California Sur or the southern state of Baja California in Mexico, so they know I am talking about
the southern portion of the 1000 mile long peninsula that belongs to Mexico.
The word California somehow implies to some Canadians that it is part of the state of California from the USA, and it can be confusing, so I make sure
they know that Baja California is not part of the USA. I guess they never paid too much attention in school.
If history was different, I'd be driving 600 miles south from where I live in British Columbia Canada, and I'd be in the most northwestern state in
Mexico. If I recall my history of the Republic of Mexico, at one time Mexico's boundaries extended all the way up into the state of Oregon. That's not
that far from British Columbia. We have a term up here called the country of Concordia, which would be the third largest trading nation in the world
and completely self sufficient.
A combining of Alaska, Yukon, Alberta, British Columbia, Washington state, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, California and the the two states of Baja
California. All the resources, oil, food crops, wheat, fising, hydro power, water, ports etc.
It will never happen.
Geography and history is very important in Canada, and most every Canadian learns more about other countries, the history and geography of those
countries from elementary school right through to high school. And most can name over 80% of the states in the U.S.A and the major cities. They also
learn about Mexico and can probably name many of the states, and probably many of the major cities.
I doubt it goes the other way for most people from the USA and Mexico learning about Canada and naming all our Canadian provinces and major cities.
Not sure exactly why that is, but I guess it's because there is so much for our southern neighbors to learn about their own countries, and that leaves
little time for them to learn about Canada.
It is a source of joking up here in Canada. We export many of our comedians to the USA. Many people think the top comedians in the USA are native to
the USA, but many of them come from Canada and ventured south to the USA for a bigger market.
The host of 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes', a very popular show in Canada, often travels to the USA and asks basic questions about Canada from people
living in the USA. It is halarious as to what answers they come up with. Very comical. But you would have to be Canadian to get the humour.
Most just give blank stares. It's almost as if we Canadians are on another planet, rather than being a neighboring country to the USA. If he went
further south to various areas of Mexico, or even to some of the Universities in Mexico City, I think the host would get many of the same blank stares
when asking the same questions about Canada.
I have experienced this, as I have been to many software industry conferences in Mexico City. But we never get upset over it. We take the time to
educate if people from another country want to learn about Canada. But we do have our fun with it first.
But that is not to say that all people from the USA and Mexico are that way about their knowledge of Canada. In fact many are quite knowledgeable
about Canada, and some more so than some bozzo Canadians. Mainly because they have taken an interest in Canada, and have made many friendships with
Canadians who have vacationed or lived in the USA and Mexico.
We all have much to learn about each other's country of origin, and the many customs and history, and that is what is good about this message board.
An area to ask questions and learn.
I get a kick out of people referencing Canada as the Great White North. While traveling in the southern states of the USA (Texas and Arizona) and into
eastern Mexico and the Yucatan peninsula a few years ago, I would always here this one:
You live way up north, don't you? I heard it's really cold up there. How do you get around with all the snow?
I know they are referring to Canada, but it does make me laugh that we all live in the tundra and Arctic Circle area of northern Canada. Most people
in Canada live within 100 to 150 miles of the Canada/USA border and one the west (vancouver) and east coastal areas and the St. Lawrence seaway and
Great Lakes Region. Most other parts of Canada are sparesly populated.
It's almost as if some of people from our two southern neighboring countries think we all live in igloos and ride snowmobiles to work and school all
year around. So I have a little fun and toy with it. I tell my US American and Mexican friends that us Canadians or Canucks all have a custom to rub
noses with each other as a greeting, and that most every household has at least three pairs of snowshoes, one snowmobile, a snow blower, and one pet
moose.
But Canadians do tend to shorten things down alot. Especially the term Baja. On this board, I think many people just say Baja because everyone thinks
that most people know what area is being referenced in their posts.
Aside from all this, I would very much like to see more information on the history of the two states of Baja California from a Mexican national
perspective. One can always learn from that most important perspective. 
RandyMac
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]
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Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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RandyMacSC/SO
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The I AM Canadian Rant from Molson Canadian Beer fame...
Maybe one of the large Cervesa (Beer Makers) from Mexico will make a similar video about Mexico to promote their beer while pointing out the
misconceptions about Mexico?
A few years ago, Molson Canada (our largest beer maker) made a 60-second beer commercial that captured the hearts, souls, and minds of Canadians -
French and English-speaking alike.
It's become very popular for us usually mild-mannered Canadians, and Joe in the beer commercial gets us Canucks in touch with our inner patriots, as
he pokes fun at the typical misconceptions about our country by Americans from the USA.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-72891/CanadianClub/CCsales/ad.htm...
Canadians generally like to laugh alot. It gets real cold in these igloos ya know.
The I AM Rant:
Hey.
I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader,and I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dog sled, and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from
Canada, although I'm certain they're really, really nice.
I have a Prime Minister, not a President. I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it 'about', not 'a boot'.
I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack. I believe in peacekeeping, not policing. Diversity, not assimilation, and that the beaver is a
truly proud and noble animal.
A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch, and it is pronounced 'zed' not 'zee' ... 'ZED'!!!
Canada is the second largest land mass! The first nation of hockey! And the best part of North America!
My name is Joe!! And I am Canadian!
[Edited on 5-22-2004 by RandyMac]
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Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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Nikon
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This was an amusing rant by a pedant, but it did put me of a mind in the scene in "Easy Rider" when the bikers are sitting down to eat as guests of a
family in the deep country, and the host asks Peter Fonda where he's from. "LA" is the reply; never having heard this bastardization of the name,
assuming a quizzical expression, he asks "El Lay?". "Los Angeles", he's told.
It was just a subtle statement to demonstrate how far back in the woods they'd come to get to this place.
Maybe you had to be there. . .
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RandyMacSC/SO
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Nikon. We Canucks joke about the movie Deliverance...
when someone mentions that they travelled to the southern USA in areas such as Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama.
It's just that back woods impression that movies can imply about an area.
My mother's family came from Tennessee and Virginia. I learned alot about the southern states from the many old books that my grandparents had in a
cabinet. One day I'll venture that way and check it out. Backwoods and deliverance?
Good movie. We are heavily influenced by the USA up here in Canada, because of TV and movies, so we learn alot about the USA.
The more I can learn about Baja California and it's history etc, the better.
And as for the I AM Rant, Molson has a new beer commercial on the same theme line but I can't find it. We get Molson I AM Canadian T-Shirts in our
cases of beer, so I give many of them away while I'm in the Baja California.
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Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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bajalou
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about
I've seen the tee shirts RandyMac and have to disagree with one part only - the Canadians I know who come here in the winter do say "aboot", at least
to these USofA ears.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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RandyMacSC/SO
Special Correspondent
Posts: 422
Registered: 2-2-2004
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Yes. There are vast differences in the way Canadians pronounce...
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
I've seen the tee shirts RandyMac and have to disagree with one part only - the Canadians I know who come here in the winter do say "aboot", at least
to these USofA ears.
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certain words in various parts of Canada. I had a contract in Eastern Canada in Fredericton New Brunswick the eastern province just above and to the
east of Maine. While there, I was told that my pronunciation and accent from western Canada was funny. And I noticed their accent as being different
than from western Canada. Very Celtic, whic I quite enjoy, as I am a big Celtic music fan.
The IAM C video was created by Molson back in eastern Canada, in metro Toronto. Most of the Canadians that drive to the Baja California do so from
British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatewan, and yes a few do drive from Manitoba and maybe Ontario and Quebec. But the majority of people who drive to
the Baja California area are western Canadians.
And I did notice that some (a handful) of the BC motorhomes contained the most obnoxious people I had ever met. It was embarrassing, as Canadians are
generally well liked for being easy going kind people. It was especially noticable with a few, and I do place emphasis on a few Canadians who parked
their rigs at Playa Huncolito near Loreto and at Playa Los Cerritos near Todos Santos.
Too bad. Giving us fun loving Canucks a bad name.
The typical fights over my beach space ownership thingy and my rig is bigger and better than your rig. And being very disrespectful of the local
people. Thankfully these buttheads didn't wear any I Am Canadian Ts. They come in XX large but they wouldn't fit some of these wads.
I shouldn't say this, but a few of us Canucks staying down there for the winter got a little whipped up on the ice cold wobbly pops one day and went
over at night to where they were parked and wazzed on their rig tires. I little childish, I must say, but definitely worth it for the color. Color, is
a term we use use up here for fun. Kind of marking out our territory as a reminder to stay in line with the be a good Canuck ways.
[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]
[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]
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Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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Mexitron
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Thats news to me ......I really did think Canadiens all lived in igloos.........eh?
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RandyMacSC/SO
Special Correspondent
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When ya come ta Canada stop in for a wee pint...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Thats news to me ......I really did think Canadiens all lived in igloos.........eh? |
of ice beer or an hot Irish coffee.....
[Edited on 5-23-2004 by RandyMac]
==============================================
Ole' Irish saying (Gaelic): 'Go neirigh an bothar leat, go mbeidh an gaoth choiche sa droim agat, is go mbeidh tu thuas ar neamh leath-uair roimh is
eol don diabhal go bhuil tu marbh'.... OR 'May the road rise up to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, and May you be in Heaven a half hour
before the Devil knows you're dead'
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jrbaja
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AHA ! We new it Randy
Isn't that Dudley and Sweet Nell in the trees back there ?
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daveB
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RandyMac, looks like an old house of mine, traded off years ago for a gross of snow cones
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thebajarunner
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Mood: muy amable
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Don't call it Frisco...
Just because we imperial Americans have gotten away with reducing their noble name to simply "Baja" doesn't make it right. (By the way, I too have
succumbed to this unfortunate abbreviation.)
20 years ago when I was a member of the Commission of the Californias, there was a real push by those from both BCN and BCS to purge this appellation
from the vernacular, alas, they failed.
The same folks who brought you Sandy Eggo, and Loss Anjuluss now present you with "Baja."
Baja Arriba!!
(by the by, that is why I always sign off with the slightly absurd notation as per above.... just seems right to leave it a bit wrong, doesn't it??)
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