BajaNomad - and now.....random targets.....

and now.....random targets.....

surfer jim - 12-9-2008 at 08:22 PM

Turned on computer and latest news story says the "hitmen" are now also doing random targets around Tijuana....shoppers, restaurants, movies.......gunmen enter and just start shooting......where does it go from here?

woody with a view - 12-9-2008 at 08:25 PM

hey Jim

got a link?

surfer jim - 12-9-2008 at 08:39 PM

was on YAHOO NEWS......(Reuters)

movinguy - 12-9-2008 at 08:59 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081209/wl_nm/us_mexico_drugs

Tragic - but I would still question how "random" they are.

surfer jim - 12-9-2008 at 09:21 PM

Thank you....that's it.....

fishbuck - 12-10-2008 at 12:26 AM

I was just there last night and this morning. Went to Revo and also Rio Plaza. Very quite.
They are now searching cars entering Mexico and also at the toll boths.

Hook - 12-10-2008 at 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by movinguy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081209/wl_nm/us_mexico_drugs

Tragic - but I would still question how "random" they are.

Care to enlighten us on how you reached this conclusion?

movinguy - 12-10-2008 at 08:10 AM

Quote:

Care to enlighten us on how you reached this conclusion?

I am in Tijuana 2-3 times a week. While they may be in denial, the locals believe that the "collateral" damage - even children, unfortunately - were related to or associated with the wrong people.

As I said, they may be rationalizing this as the walls close in around them. Or they may be right. Sucks either way.

Mexicali_Kid - 12-10-2008 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by movinguy

Care to enlighten us on how you reached this conclusion?

Some associated with the wrong people and some are targets of kidnappings, and some are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I have lost three friends to the narco war in the last year and have thought long and hard about each death. I hope there are no more. But I know there will be.

fishingmako - 12-11-2008 at 12:37 AM

Came across the Border at 10:30 am today,12/10 at San Ysidro got a green light and the the police jumped out in the road and waved me into customs, they didn't look or ask too manny questions, but now you have to go thru the Military there that want to check you and they want to know a lot of info, and they write it all down, DRIVERS LIC INFO, VEHICLE INFO, ETC. I asked them if they are doing it randomly, they said for now, but they will start checking everyone, they are looking for weapons and they don't care who or what you look like so be aware.

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 10:12 AM

When you look at crimes in order to solve the crime, you ask who had the motive and who benefits from the crime? In the case of the reported random shootings, ask youself who has the motive and who benefits? Now try to determine if the evidence is what is seems to be and if it is as it seems or is it setup to mislead, perhaps the scene is misleading from other criminal activity.

Lets take the report on yahoo on its own first. Random shootings have the intended effect of intimidating, they show arrogance or intend to demonstrate superiority. Like highway shooters the targets are seemingly random.

There is no racial motive or intended victim? Hos do cartels act? Do they act within guidelines and have intended victims? Yes. Independent Cartels have one goal, moving the cache of product with open routes. Their goals and actions are quite defferent than the type outlined here in the yahoo story, even though they seem similar they are clearly not!

So simplistically the message of the report is be intimidated, be scared of random shooters, you are powerless.

Now who would benefit, who would have the motive? Who would act in collusion? Yahoo?

So it seems that there are some assumptions we can make about the extensive reports of intended and random shootings, they are, that is the reports are simply designed to intimidate people to feel powerless precipitating a call for help from the federal government as the result. There is no other motive, no other intent so it seems.

Its possible to see the connection, that is random and intended violence precipitates the call for A Mexico Plan.

Now look at other similar cases of terror and look at the culprits? All too often, in almost every case Government pro and counter intelligence agencies are behind these attacks to bring on a call for military defense intervention as we have seen repeatedly throughout the world by US black operations often labeled false flag--that is the attack occurs under pretense of a foreign attacker which precipitates an invasion in defense of the attack by the USA.

This is now become the oldest and most tired "intelligence agency" operation which have footprints or fingerprints. The call to highlevel officials demonstrating internal knowledge, the demonstrated intimate knowledge of codes, access, systems and tools. This report like so many are part of the operation I'll label-'theater of intimidation precipitating intervention' and frankly enough is enough, its all too clear who benefits, whose fingerprint is left and which result is intended.

Now, I for one know that the public is aware and very few if anyone is buying it anymore.

In particular, the Mexican people know who is doing it and peace officers know who, I think at this point everyone knows who is behind the attack on innocents.

surfer jim - 12-11-2008 at 10:38 AM

help me out here....if "everyone knows"......(except me I guess)......WHO is doing it ?.....tell me and I will stay out of their way........

woody with a view - 12-11-2008 at 10:39 AM

either that :?:

, or i need to double-up the aluminum foil on my propeller hat!!!

[Edited on 12-11-2008 by woody in ob]

fdt - 12-11-2008 at 11:13 AM

Can someone please tell us Tijuana residents were exactly there have been ANY random shootings? We have no knowledge of them.

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 11:27 AM

Gnukid,

How do you know this?

While not out of the realm of possibility, for one to know this, it would place them inside the operations. It is doubtful, if you are on the inside, that you would be chatting about it here on the BajaNomad.

Woooosh - 12-11-2008 at 11:38 AM

The first American killed will close down the whole city. If the intent of the narcos with killing innocents is to "clear the streets" there's not much the 4% of clean police can do to stop them.

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 12:12 PM

You can have it however you like?

You can believe that the violence in TJ or Iraq and Afghanistan is just part of life that is unstoppable or you can look at the evidence available, follow the time-line, look at the facts of who benefits, who has the ability, whose footprint remains and pursue coming to some logical conclusions.

Of course, there is a programmed response among Americans; it is defined by arrogance and elitism and above all the inability to think for oneself.

Incredibly convenient isn't to have infighting, the type which is condescending devoid of any logic among the general population as demonstrated by the previous posters.

I am neither an investigative journalist nor a government employee. My observations of the obvious is not substantial, but as opposed to the opinion that golly gee who can figure this out, the conclusions are obvious to those who look at history and at the present. When we are open to empirical discussion and think for ourselves and drop the American Arrogant style we become far more able to discuss and to make rational conclusions.

Of course, we have history to learn from, USA has consistently backed black operations which cause terror to precipitate intervention: The USA has lied and killed its own and other countries to provoke conflict and war and they publicly admit it in declassified documents.

The USA did in Mexican wars 1819, 1846-48, Spanish-American war 1898 - The surprise explosion of the battleship Maine, World War I 1914 when a U-boat torpedo hit ocean liner Lusitania, World War 2 1939 The U-boat torpedo hit ocean liner Athenia, the Korean with incursions, the Vietnam with the Tonkin incident, the Grenada invasion, the Panama invasion, the Iraq-Iran war, Desert Storm, etc... etc... War on drugs and the Columbia Plan and now the Mexico Plan.

Hmmm, so how is it then that nice people like Jim and Woody are able to deny such things in their minds? Surely, its clear that theirs and others denial is not based in empirical thought of their own, while instead their response is pre-programmed, in utter denial of any and all facts and yet they are smug, arrogant and certain without question.

So here we are. The reported violence is a form of terrorism. There is terrorism in the form of journalistic theater and actual victims such as the ones we know about here.

If we are to be outraged and angry, should we be angry at each other? It certainly comes easier and with less threat to spout obscenities at seniors on BN while instead we can and we should target our outrage at the historical perpetrators of these attacks which precipitate Militaristic intervention. We should be absolute in our understanding of the role of the Military and government in these attacks. We are a community that together can end the lies and the attacks and the increasing control and intimidation tactics if we see each other as a community of common goals and common interests that must at all costs work together against the enemy.

Now, for Jim and Woody, I hold no ill will toward you, I don't lay blame on you though I ask you to consider the issues more broadly, review the history and consider the issues with an open mind and open discussion. Take time to consider the issues and evolve your conclusions toward one that considers the whole of us as a community with a clear enemy, one that is theatrical, patternistic, immoral and clearly one which is powerful and clearly evil.

Jim and Woody if you are unwilling to take the time and energy to consider the history and the present and yet persist in arrogance, be aware that arrogance, self-importance and denial of the clear historical and present facts before us is in particular a piece of the theater which reinforces the terror because it leaves us with only one other conclusion: the terror has no target nor reason - we are powerless, which by the way is false.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

woody with a view - 12-11-2008 at 12:23 PM

what you are saying makes sense but without more than one incident from every conflict going back 200 years i can't commit to more than a maybe. i agree with the arrogant american scenario but also in the information that is diseminated (sp?) to us, and that it is generally truthful. i don't believe that the u.s. was involved in 9-11 but i remember oliver north was guilty as hell for selling weapons for coaine in central america. who is perfect? i'd rather have my american freedoms (and the things that go with) more than anything you, or anyone else can offer.

whatsa matter? you don't like my twirly hat? :lol:

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 12:40 PM

I named a few incidents that are documented, acknowledged and publicly known as declassified black intelligence operations. These are a few from a long list that are available for any interested person to look into, many books are published, many declassified documents etc... The point I was making to you, was not to "teach" about every incident, that's up to you, I am neither interested nor an expert, but the ones I noted are a few in a long line of operations which have provoked funding and militaristic intervention as we see with Plan Mexico.

On the other hand, there has never been an unprovoked independent attack on the US except possibly Perl Harbor which we have since learned was provoked and a great deal of evidence is available and published now-which is really sad.

So, knowing that there are few in any unprovoked attacks except those by the US military black operations which by the way increases their budgets yearly at a level far exceeding any other funded operation worldwide, even exceeding our known military expenditures, how long will it take for anyone or everyone to come to the obvious conclusions?

The only thing more surprising than the history and consistency of USA backed violence against our own people and foreign nations is that sheer Arrogance in denial by Americans of the facts before them which itself is fantastic. The level of programming achieved by the media machines to stop independent thought and cause extreme, caustic arrogant self-importance must be a grand achievement of the propaganda machine which runs integral with military control mechanisms.

No wonder then, that I receive a daily job offer to go work for the Navy as a Communications Specialist...

Well, I appreciate our community, your comments Jim and all of the people in Baja who have taught me so much about community and about thinking and doing for yourself with respect for others. We can and we will end this nonsense just as soon as we each use our mental capabilities to see and interact fully and independently. With that the false flag theater loses its power like a soapy bubble popped as it blows in the wind.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

k-rico - 12-11-2008 at 01:33 PM

gnukid,

Boil it down for me. Why is the US causing the violence in Mexico and how is it doing it? What's the motive, what are the means?

Try to be brief.

rdrrm8e - 12-11-2008 at 02:41 PM

Gee...I guess trying to eliminate the govt's cash flow, vis a vis tourism, couldn't be considered a quid pro quo to the crackdown on the cartels.

Or is that too simple?

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
gnukid,

Boil it down for me. Why is the US causing the violence in Mexico and how is it doing it? What's the motive, what are the means?

Try to be brief.

The violence whether in fact or sensationalized theater purpose is to destabilize and precipitate a call for federal intervention by US backed military forces and economic controls further widening demand and fulfillment for control both of food and energy and all economic policy in a increasingly centralized by continent power grid.

Thus you will see a move to global governance and global central banking precipitated by the formation of European Union, the North American Union and the Asian Union known as the tri-lateral union of Nations.

Today we see a rapid escalation in movements to precipitate the Global Governance and you will see various steps toward managed chaos to precipitate the demand and popular will for global governance.

The case of the report on Yahoo is a "calling card" or precise footprint of the black operations which target innocent people with precision and sophistication in order to intimidate and create a sense of chaos - from chaos order. Its the call of the illuminati.

Simply being aware is the most powerful step to stop their destruction. Thinking for yourself is step 2, providing for yourself is step 3.

See you at the beach!

[Edited on 12-11-2008 by gnukid]

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 05:55 PM

Gnukid,

I can't dispute anything you believe because I don't know anything other than what I have read. I read lots of sources,both responsible print journalism and online blogs, some with real information and some just plain kooky. I am aware of the Canada/US/Mexico/Super Highway, global one government, one currency movement. It is still also being denied.

Many of your references are a little obtuse. I don't understand everything to which you are hinting.

Being skeptical by nature, I try to examine what and who is behind such things. The respective governments are denying it, even though Texas is building the first leg of the Super Highway. Our government now has Blackwater operatives on trial because they were hired to do our secret dirty work in Iraq and who knows where else(?), and they got caught murdering, were exposed by the media and now their operations cannot be denied.

You are correct in that The United States has a long history of Imperialist ambition using covert operations to help facilitate it. In more recent history, Cheney and the Neocons formed the PNAC and planned the invasion of Iraq in 1992. It is available on Google for anyone to read. They were just looking for the right dummy stooge-president and then they manufactured the excuse(s) to implement it.

Most Americans know that the CIA performs secret operations. They just would rather not know the details. The details are classified and/or denied anyway. Most Americans trust that their government is doing good by spreading Democracy (by force) around the world. Many think, that to question those ambitions makes you "Un-American". The right- Wingnuts will tell you that this cause is righteous. Just go to Off Topic and ask them.

(What I can't figure out is why the ultra-right wing, John Birch Society is the main (perhaps only) organization that is sounding the alarm about the North American Union. They see it as a threat to their isolationist concept of how the U.S. should exist as a sovereign nation.)

Now, how does this tie in with the cartel drug activities? My theory (and that is all it is) is that it has been condoned by the U.S. and Mexican governments with a wink and a nod, because, as an underground economy ,it represents a huge portion of the economies at large. Ironically, now that the "legitimate" economy, run by "legitimate" crooks, has collapsed, we are left with the drug trade to support it.

I do NOT condone that! These murderous thugs have been allowed to operate with a degree of impunity while the governments have given "lip service" to a so called "War on Drugs". It is bogus! That stupid wall is a huge example of token PR. It is a huge waste of money and won't stop the drug trade. The "immigration problem" has taken care of itself. That population is going back. I have been saying that this would happen since I have been on this forum. When the jobs dry up, it's bye bye.

And now it has gotten terribly out of hand; out of control, and our resources have been squandered. Luckily, they are killing each other, but too many innocents (or perhaps some are guilty by association; friends, family, etc, whom are not "guilty" at all). are also in harms way. The Mexican people cannot and must not live under siege, by intimidation. What a horrible, terrifying existence. The violence must end!

norte - 12-11-2008 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Most Americans know that the CIA performs secret operations. They just would rather not know the details. The details are classified and/or denied anyway. Most Americans trust that their government is doing good by spreading Democracy (by force) around the world. Many think, that to question those ambitions makes you "Un-American". The right- Wingnuts will tell you that this cause is righteous. Just go to Off Topic and ask them.

!

Amazing how we "know" , Guys - Our intelligence apparatus (more than just the CIA) is among all facets of this world.

CG - 12-11-2008 at 06:19 PM

Man, y'all high as a mother effer! You smokin' mad blunts dog :tumble:

Government conspiracies, illuminati. etc...

You want to know the REAL truth about all the severed heads:

There can be only one, HIGHLANDER!

woody with a view - 12-11-2008 at 06:23 PM

most people who aren't lucky enough to be american and who live overseas despise us americans. so what? generally speaking, they all would come here in an instant if given the chance, and that includes all of those towel heads. they hate us but they would love to come out of their caves and thrive in the 21 century.... black op's are just another tool. think how the chinese or russians carry out their black op's? is it any different, really?

norte - 12-11-2008 at 06:24 PM

Not a conspiracy. Just a fact. Been that way for years. Or did you think the government quit that stuff.

Its only when your high that you forget. Right??? you know

woody with a view - 12-11-2008 at 06:25 PM

that is one of my alltime favorite movies (the original). Connor McCloud of the Clan McCloud.

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 06:58 PM

Interesting that after 200 hundred years of publicly admitted black operation incursions to preciptate every single military entanglement we've engaged with zero independent unprovoked invasions of the US, American people still look c-ck-eyed when we discuss tiring of this nonsense. Even still, we have many who support the US backed killing of innocents as we do all around the world in numbers of many millions in Iraq, and millions more in various other conflicts.

For any of you who have trouble understanding US invasions both public and secret, take a little time, mark 15-30 minutes on the clock, turn off your tv and sit down and do a search of any previous invasion by the US and read about it, shortly you will see the clearly noted admission of precipitous provocations of "false flag" incursions by US forces usually attacking our own people killing innocents. In fact, look into our engagements and name one that was not precipitated by US "false flag" operations. I dare you, you will not find one case where we were attacked independently to provoke us into war.

The footprint of the US backed operations are consistent and disgusting yet somehow people can justify it in their minds as consistently acceptable for imperialism, just as people did under Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and of course under US Presidents such as we do today. Did anyone follow the bombings in India? They have already been admitted to be US backed false flag while still we discuss attacking Pakistan?

So here we go again, targeting Mexico, targeting the Cartels, targeting innocents, killing people for the simple goal of killing and intimidation-that is not the policy of Mexican nor American Mafia, gangs or Cartels - killing innocents is the hallmark of US backed black ops and intelligence operations to precipitate intervention by the US military. And what do the Military do when they arrive? They continue to kill innocents... yet there exists supporters, here and everywhere. Its a testament to the power of propagandizing via the powerful hypnosis of the media machine.

Now, I dare you to turn off your tv for 1 week or more, go outside, speak to people, better yet do it in Baja and very quickly the patterns of the lies will become apparent and clear and you will be outraged not passive in support of murder of innocents.

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
most people who aren't lucky enough to be american and who live overseas despise us americans. so what? generally speaking, they all would come here in an instant if given the chance, and that includes all of those towel heads. they hate us but they would love to come out of their caves and thrive in the 21 century.... black op's are just another tool. think how the chinese or russians carry out their black op's? is it any different, really?

I have spent the better part of the last two months with Chinese of various regions and with the opportunity to engage high level administrators. Finally I asked them about the severity of their control systems and how it plays out and while we agreed they are severe, we concluded that presently China is more free economically and socially then we are here in the USA. Mexico as well is far more open minded and tolerant allowing for freedom far exceeding the US which now imprisons something like 1.5:100 that 3 of every 200 people are in jail for crimes ranging from minor non-violent to serious crime.

We have nearly 1000 new FEMA prison camps which are empty awaiting more slave labor from immigrants or possibly credit crimes, which will increase our populations to 3:100. But of course that would never happen to any arrogant self-aggrandizing Americans, it only happens to other people, so who cares right?

So, no people are begging to come here, that's a misunderstood concept as it is difficult to enter from some countries, which is quite different than they all would jump at the chance. They would not. Not now.

woody with a view - 12-11-2008 at 07:15 PM

your generalizations trump mine, generally!!!!

k-rico - 12-11-2008 at 07:40 PM

PNAC Website

Nothing in the "What's New" section since 2006. Old fashioned Yankee Imperialism nonsense. I'm glad the originators are dying out. Good riddance. Their Iraq adventure has been a complete failure. Bozos.

The Illuminati Conspiracy

Interesting fiction, I haven't found it yet but I'm sure the "guys" in charge are extra-galactic beings. Maybe, just maybe, God is the boss.

To keep it on-topic, I can't find any mention of Mexican drug cartels.

Anyway, since all the drug violence isn't because of drugs, but because of some effort to resurrect the Roman Empire, do we still need to legalize drugs?

May the force be with you.

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Gnukid,

I can't dispute anything you believe because I don't know anything other than what I have read. I read lots of sources,both responsible print journalism and online blogs, some with real information and some just plain kooky. I am aware of the Canada/US/Mexico/Super Highway, global one government, one currency movement. It is still also being denied.

Texas Trans-National Corridor is a building block of the North American Union because it takes away sovereignty from our existing ports and gives it to a foreign entity. Yep! The Port will be in Ohio or some such place and be owned by Australia or another foreign power, effectively ending the Port Authority.

Well put how is it being denied while at the same time built and with huge billboards. This is "calling card" a truth-lie-truth serving of propaganda. This method creates confusion and chaos. From Chaos Order is their charge as it is forever written. Note the pattern and start to recognize it.

Quote:

Many of your references are a little obtuse. I don't understand everything to which you are hinting.

If you would like to be more specific that would help. I noted a few well known, well documented US provoked attacks on our own people as "false flag". These are so well documented that they are taught in most public schools yet you say obtuse? Could you please choose any example I gave, do a little research and if you want to discuss the background of how we egaged in war in the Mexican wars, WWI, WWII, Korea, VietNam, Grenada etc... please open a specific dialog. There are many sources which are reputable and conclusive plus public declassified documents, its a simple task to pursue, choose one and find out how we found ourselves at war, try it.

Do you recall the most recent story about WMDS in Iraq and now 4 million deaths later still no WMDs and no reason for our invasion and murders?

Quote:

Being skeptical by nature, I try to examine what and who is behind such things. The respective governments are denying it, even though Texas is building the first leg of the Super Highway. Our government now has Blackwater operatives on trial because they were hired to do our secret dirty work in Iraq and who knows where else(?), and they got caught murdering, were exposed by the media and now their operations cannot be denied.

Blackwater has 5 people indicted I believe, there is no trial yet and there is a long path prior to trial, they are going to pursue many avenues including potential trial locations and jurisdictions. Considering the number of documented murders the fact is no one has been tried yet for the murders. And by the way those troops have been moved to the US in violation of Posse Comitatus Act and those violent thugs are now patrolling the US to control dissenting people. THere are more than 20,000 US troops in the US running illegal stops, intimidating people much like Hitlers Brown Shirts. But hey we Arrogant Americans aren't targeted so who cares, right, let them put people in jail for seemingly minor crimes like credit default or traffic violations.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Blackwater_trial_venu...

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6707

Quote:

You are correct in that The United States has a long history of Imperialist ambition using covert operations to help facilitate it. In more recent history, Cheney and the Neocons formed the PNAC and planned the invasion of Iraq in 1992. It is available on Google for anyone to read. They were just looking for the right dummy stooge-president and then they manufactured the excuse(s) to implement it.

Most Americans know that the CIA performs secret operations. They just would rather not know the details. The details are classified and/or denied anyway. Most Americans trust that their government is doing good by spreading Democracy (by force) around the world. Many think, that to question those ambitions makes you "Un-American". The right- Wingnuts will tell you that this cause is righteous. Just go to Off Topic and ask them.

Black operations are admitted, budgeted and de facto, stated and then denied and stated and denied. This is the classic confusion game which serves to divide and conquer the public. If you pay attention its confusing as hell and if you don't you just deny. There you have a split between educated scholars and the public, interested participants and disinterested types, all the while American people are programmed to have a violent reaction to discussion, to overact and ridicule reasoning and thought. Its almost of self-managed dumbing down with a mocking tone of any facts which suggests that the US powers might be acting outside the interests of the public, which by the way they clearly are in the vast growth of military and overspending to drive us into severe debt well exceeding any previous debt, in fact in the last few weeks and months we spent more than we have in the previous 200 hundred years but gosh oh golly that couldn't be against the common good will, could it. And we should support more payouts even though we each have to pay and we suffer for their gains? Makes sense?

Quote:

(What I can't figure out is why the ultra-right wing, John Birch Society is the main (perhaps only) organization that is sounding the alarm about the North American Union. They see it as a threat to their isolationist concept of how the U.S. should exist as a sovereign nation.)

Its because the ultra right wing are the only ones left who support a tradition of the US as a sovereign independent Nation, one that is truly American. The current squad of neocons and democrats are out to destroy the Nation as they have achieved and to bring on global union. The middle class of the US has been destroyed, the poor suffer while their incomes are well above international averages. The US has effectively been destroyed, dismantled and much of the world has been dragged down too by a planned destruction on their path toward rebuilding a global union with global currency and global military. Food and energy will largely become the tools of the central government which is why GMO foods are allowed to be patented and globalized, using round-up tolerant single generation seeds that do not reproduce demanding you pay Monsanto for their seeds at a hefty premium.

Quote:

Now, how does this tie in with the cartel drug activities? My theory (and that is all it is) is that it has been condoned by the U.S. and Mexican governments with a wink and a nod, because, as an underground economy ,it represents a huge portion of the economies at large. Ironically, now that the "legitimate" economy, run by "legitimate" crooks, has collapsed, we are left with the drug trade to support it.

I do NOT condone that! These murderous thugs have been allowed to operate with a degree of impunity while the governments have given "lip service" to a so called "War on Drugs". It is bogus! That stupid wall is a huge example of token PR. It is a huge waste of money and won't stop the drug trade. The "immigration problem" has taken care of itself. That population is going back. I have been saying that this would happen since I have been on this forum. When the jobs dry up, it's bye bye.

And now it has gotten terribly out of hand; out of control, and our resources have been squandered. Luckily, they are killing each other, but too many innocents (or perhaps some are guilty by association; friends, family, etc, whom are not "guilty" at all). are also in harms way. The Mexican people cannot and must not live under siege, by intimidation. What a horrible, terrifying existence. The violence must end!

Pay attention, you're mixing apples and oranges, the killings are likely the result of US backed black op intervention to create chaos first and foremost while blaming drug cartels. Look at their past present and future. Cartels are businesses that meet a market need, they are quite different than those actions of Blackwater types, Black op types of operations, those dramaticized stories of innocent children being killed those are the calling card of US operations.

We are a community of like minded people with similar goals and interests. We have everything to gain by tolerance and discussion and we have everything to lose by being arrogant and intolerant. There is no demand or requirement to "know" or to "understand" only that we participate and consider the facts before us, that we remain concerned for each other and for the general good will of the people first, and that we demand and require that our servants act in our interests as we desire, not in their own self-interests and at our peril.

thx

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
PNAC Website

Nothing in the "What's New" section since 2006. Old fashioned Yankee Imperialism nonsense. I'm glad the originators are dying out. Good riddance. Their Iraq adventure has been a complete failure. Bozos.

The Illuminati Conspiracy

Interesting fiction, I haven't found it yet but I'm sure the "guys" in charge are extra-galactic beings. Maybe, just maybe, God is the boss.

To keep it on-topic, I can't find any mention of Mexican drug cartels.

Anyway, since all the drug violence isn't because of drugs, but because of some effort to resurrect the Roman Empire, do we still need to legalize drugs?

May the force be with you.

Hmmm There is no sense in arguing or convincing, everyone is free to pursue the issues as they see fit, I thank you for the chance to have an open discussion as quite honestly, I feel nomads are especially thoughtful, resourceful and intelligent.

Funny though that you have no memory of the various drug plane crashes recently, nearly 30 tons have been recovered in CIA related planes, they crashed when they ere denied fueling on previously approved routes?

Well you brought it up and it is generally publicly admitted and declassified that the same planes and officers that ran torture flights out of the country returned with tons of drugs. This is front page news. The fact that you can deny it still while it was front page, Times, it is published and admitted yet you are secure in your denial--that is the most amazing thing to me, K-rico.

I have some doubts as to your sincerity at this point but as a well intended dialogue I'll bite, I do a quick search on the reports and add the links though we been through this dozens of time before here... by the way its the same story as the Hassenfus story back with Ollie North and guess what they all still working for the administration even though they are federal criminals charged with dealing crack cocaine to LA and all over. But hey lets get all Arrogant and American and deny it anyway.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/10/nation/na-contra10

Here you go-next time take 15 minutes on the clock and take a gander on your own--seems like your instincts are correct. Take a look at the reports that 100's of CIA renditions trafficked drugs-yes these are the tools of the illuminati. Who do you think CIA renditions flights that traffic drugs work for, me and you?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j6QonBKKMo2gw1e3ql-xUcQE...

http://www.madcowprod.com/09102008.html

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2007/09/another-coke-jet-myst...

Please do some of research, you clearly have a computer and you can do some work here too and contribute while still bring skeptical.

fdt - 12-11-2008 at 08:28 PM

So what about random targets. As a resident of Tijuana, with wife, children and family that live here I would really like to know were the random shootings are taking place and more so how many have there been since we know of none.
Please if you are wiling to post that random soootings are in efect, please tell us were so we can take apropriate measures.

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 08:43 PM

Gnukid,

I cannot dispute all of what you are saying because I don't understand it the way you are writing it. From you it is coming too fast, too intensely and too vehemently for me to catch any more than a few recognizable references. Your rapid fire intensity makes me dizzy.

While it may be unfair to you, I have seen this kind of paranoid intensity before. There are bases for many of your premises (those that I can recognize), but then they spin into the stratosphere. I am not challenging your ideas. In fact, I am agreeing with many of the ones I can recognize. I implore you to step back, take a breath, and protect your health. Man, you are out there and may not be able to find your way back...and you probably don't know it.

I'm sorry I stepped into it. I can neither relate nor communicate with you. I stated what I think is happening. In good writing, brevity serves best to clearly state an issue. We have both violated that rule.

You carry on. I am out!

:?:

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 08:44 PM

Quote:

This is interesting patterning of dialogue K-Rico. First you mention the Policy for a New American Century or PNAC who created public policy documents outlining the plan to create a false flag incident to precipitate changing the make-up of the Middle-East through an invasion and occupation of Iraq then Afghanistan. Which was achieved exactly as described with the support of the Whitehouse administration as we know including, Cheney, Bush, Rice, Powell, Feith etc... and they later admitted they used incorrect intelligence to aggressively and seemingly knowingly to push for an aggressive invasion and the murder of 4 million or more innocents. That we know.

So here you state a truth. Then you follow with am absurdity or a presumed lie in reference to aliens while discussing the falsehood of the illuminati, yet the illuminati or families of the elite are well documented as the leaders of PNAC, Bilderberg, Tri-Lateral Commission, the Council of Foreign Relations and Club of Rome-all of which are founded by or chaired by David Rockefeller, and the prospective wealthiest families as well as seats for Cheney, Bush, Clintons, and of course both Michele and Barack Obama. Yet you ridicule their existence?

http://www.cfr.org/content/thinktank/Global_Governance_Progr...
http://www.cfr.org/
http://www.trilateral.org/
http://www.clubofrome.org/

So you see in K-ricos reply, the pattern of dialogue, first a truthful admission of truth of the involvement of a few individuals in misleading us into military action, followed by a complete and utter denial, to the point of ridicule including farcical references, suggesting falseness and with a truth and a lie sandwiched perhaps we should throw them both out-eh?

This is the the patternistic style of the propaganda machine, this is the truth-lie sandwich. And here we see K-rico engaging and participating in the pattern of misleading through this method.

I am not sure if you are parroting the propaganda discrediting technique or just being silly.

If he sticks to the propaganda game plan he will now spout hateful personal insults and absurdities which in turn will turn off most readers, he will use a long list of insults and assaults which effectively will overwhelm readers and turn them off.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
So what about random targets. As a resident of Tijuana, with wife, children and family that live here I would really like to know were the random shootings are taking place and more so how many have there been since we know of none.
Please if you are wiling to post that random soootings are in efect, please tell us were so we can take apropriate measures.

I don't believe there are random shootings taking place as any kind of policy by cartels or any government. Any kind of conspiratorial involvement is nonsense, in my opinion.

Stay alert, because stray bullets are flying, but you and we are not targets.

Hang in there fdt, and all the rest of you good people. There is hope! :light:

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Gnukid,

I cannot dispute all of what you are saying because I don't understand it the way you are writing it. From you it is coming too fast, too intensely and too vehemently for me to catch any more than a few recognizable references. Your rapid fire intensity makes me dizzy.

So you know, I learn from the people, I listen to the people of remote villages in Mexico, I listen to each of you. I am a simple person, mild mannered. And many of you who know me personally know that I spend my free time with old salts on the beaches and in the mountains of Mexico, I pay attention and I learn. I have hardly made any grand statements, only covered known ground which there are references to articles in the New York Times, Time Mag, AP News, LA Times etc... I make no outrageous statements.

So, though I might enjoy a truely out there talk, or one of stars and planets, or maybe of spirits and souls, I have not gone there.

While it may be upsetting to consider the history of the Mexican American war, I find it valuable, in fact I find it imperative that we look at out history as Americans and Mexicans. It is important that know the facts, have them at our ready use and to be able to discuss them respectfully.

I have never been hurtful or angry toward anyone though I have named references and included occasional links.

Again my interest is not in arguing or convincing, more so I respect the history, I respect the people and I strive to maintain a healthy open community dialogue which I have.

Toneart, I respect your desire to bow out, to be overwhelmed and to be discouraged. Though those are not weaknesses of yours or in our discussion. in fact, we have discussed common history and our commonalities as a group and the benefits to seeing ourselves as a group of likeminded, critical thinkers.

If you have a specific fact you wish to discuss or refer to please do, it makes the dialogue more easy to follow.

Thanks

Barry A. - 12-11-2008 at 09:22 PM

All I have to say about Gnukid's suppositions is that I have been hearing the same things for the past 25 years (at least), and none of it has hit the press, or is given any credibility by anybody I know.

Barry

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 09:40 PM

Barry, Could you possible be more vague??? And you were an intelligence officer or police investigative officer too, correct? Hmmmmm

Are there any students of history here, ni un estudiante de historia?

Why the Pearl Harbor took place:

Robert B. Stinnett: Day of Deceit: the Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor, 2000

Mark Emerson Wiley: Pearl Harbour –mother of all conspiracies
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Cordell Hull's Ultimatum to Japan
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/hullno26.html

What the US usually knew in advance (books):

Fredrick W. Winterbotham: The Ultra secret, 1974

Bradley F. Smith: The Ultra-Magic Deals, 1992

F.H.Hinsley: British Intelligence in the WW2 (4 large volumes), 1988

How to create innocent-looking wars:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/ How wars are made

How to create distant future wars:

The Best Enemy Money Can Buy by Antony C. Sutton

Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony C. Sutton

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Antony C. Sutton

The out-of-print book: From Major Jordan's Diaries (Google this item)

How to dominate as a global superpower:

Nafeez Ahmed: The War on Truth, 2005
Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum
a new updated edition published November 2005
See chapter 17: A Concise History of US Global Interventions, 1945--present

Freeing the world to death: Essays on the American Empire by William Blum
published September 2004
See chapter 15: Overthrowing other people's governments, the Master List

Alexander James: THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF MONEY & NEW WORLD ORDER
USURY SECRETS

http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

Barry A. - 12-11-2008 at 09:47 PM

Gnukid-----------I am "vague" because that is all I can be about this subject------I bought into some of it about 23 years ago, and pursued the "truth", but quickly retreated with my head intact, barely-----------I stand by what I said in my previous post.

Barry

gnukid - 12-11-2008 at 10:03 PM

Boy there are quite a few of "you" here...

Gee I feel so misunderstood. I am not a proponent of anything except common sense and common goals. I think the point I made was that YES the Yahoo story of random killings is manufactured propaganda. I feel incredibly safe in Baja, in the Cities and all over. I am especially honored to be welcome and to know the Country and its Cities.

I am but a quiet person who listens well, I do not watch TV, I am often alone or with a few mexican friends on a boat or a point or a mountain and respect my elders and people from all over. As Nomads and those we encounter we share something which is only found through our travels in Baja and that is peace of mind, common sense and respect for each other.

I think there is plenty of room for interpretation however you like, I feel very safe in Mexico. I questioned the motivations behind this Yahoo report and recent ones like it such as the story of a baby being poisoned by injection. I call it as I see it. And there is a clear pattern, the report in question whether true or made up is not the actions of drug mafias from any part of the world. The yahoo story jumps out as a calling card of a certain type of propaganda which has a long history and is easily recognizable.

Good luck and have fun,

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

k-rico - 12-12-2008 at 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

I am not sure if you are parroting the propaganda discrediting technique or just being silly.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by gnukid]

Neither, I was writing under the influence, in vino veritas.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by k-rico]

flyfishinPam - 12-12-2008 at 01:31 PM

on reading through most of this maybe some of you would be interested in this from one of my alma maters-

Project Censored -
"Through a partnership of faculty, students, and the community, Project Censored conducts research on important national news stories that are underreported, ignored, misrepresented, or censored by the US corporate media. Each year, Project Censored publishes a ranking of the top 25 most censored nationally important news stories in the yearbook, Censored: Media Democracy in Action, which is released in September. Recent Censored books have been published in Spanish, Italian and Arabic."
http://www.projectcensored.org

this is their top 25 for year 2009
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/category/y-2009/

woody with a view - 12-12-2008 at 04:35 PM

there must be a full moon tonight, right?????