BajaNomad - Not one but 2 mission sites to be destroyed

Not one but 2 mission sites to be destroyed

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 10:00 AM

Yes, it was aproved, the state legislature aproved the new hwy that will connect Ensenada to the mega port of Punta Colonet. sadly, this new 4 lane highway will destroy the ruins of both Santo Tomas and San Vicente.
On the bright side, it will sure make for faster travel for those going south.
Parts of the remains of those mission sites will be placed in a museum in Ensenada.
I guess that's progress.

Got toys?

Santiago - 12-28-2008 at 10:41 AM

Ferna: do yo have a map of the new road?

David K - 12-28-2008 at 10:57 AM

Mision Santo Tomas' final site is near Hwy. 1 and if a new highway was going right there THEN the El Palomar campground would be destroyed as it is just south of/ next door to the ruins... and that doesn't make any sense since the highway could easily be just a few hundred feet to the east and run unobstructed down the valley!

OR, if the new highway was going to run down the Santo Tomas valley/ canyon towards the ocean... then the first site may be destroyed...

=========================================

Now, if the highway was to go to the coast and follow it to Colonet (a good idea and would help the coastal land owners with business opportunity), no way would it be near San Vicente!

The San Vicente mission has been stabilized and turned into a walk through museum...

Again, this historic site could be avoided by just a few hundred foot change in the route.

Ferna, one or the other mission site may get axed, but I don't see how both missions could be in the way of a new road with so many empty square miles of land that could be used. Since Santo Tomas has so little left and no preservation effort has been done... that would be less of a loss than San Vicente.

Both should be saved for the future students and people to study and enjoy... a tourism draw for each town, as well!

Santo Tomas was the last mission in Baja to remain in operation... abandoned in 1849... Here it was in a 1926 photograph... note the palm trees which remain to help locate the site, today.

To see the missions as they appear this decade: http://vivabaja.com/bajamissions

Bajaboy - 12-28-2008 at 11:42 AM

Will the new road have bike lanes? :lol:

DianaT - 12-28-2008 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Will the new road have bike lanes? :lol:

If it does, it will quickly turn into a third lane for cars. :yes:

New highway could be good in many ways, but really hate to see the loss of historical sites. :no:

Diane

[Edited on 12-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ferna, one or the other mission site may get axed, but I don't see how both missions could be in the way of a new road with so many empty square miles of land that could be used.

David, you don't seem to understand the way things work down here. I know what you are saying but land owners want to profit from the new hwy so the missions beeing destroyed is of little importance to them.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 03:50 PM

Also the historical societies in Ensenada are not that good at preservation efforts.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
note the palm trees which remain to help locate the site, today.

You can kiss those goodbye also.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
New highway could be good in many ways, but really hate to see the loss of historical sites. :no:

Diane

Not a lot of people care enough to even visit them on the way south or north. Everyone is in a hurry.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
a good idea and would help the coastal land owners with business opportunity

The coastal land owners already have the coast, they want to develop were there is no coast.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
Ferna: do yo have a map of the new road?

I don't and maybe one apears in tomorrows paper but you know what can happen if I post a newspaper story, specialy if it's about missions.

longlegsinlapaz - 12-28-2008 at 05:42 PM

fdt, maybe if you were to provide dk with contact information for the appropriate agencies, he could convince the "powers that be" to have a change of heart...or change of route. If all else fails, he could stage a sit-in!

David K - 12-28-2008 at 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
fdt, maybe if you were to provide dk with contact information for the appropriate agencies, he could convince the "powers that be" to have a change of heart...or change of route. If all else fails, he could stage a sit-in!

I don't have that kind of power... Now, Jack Swords does have some INAH certification (for his photography)...

The loss of these sites is something gone forever... and is why Jack, Kevin, Robert, Ed and I have been contributing photos to my mission web site so the past is not totally lost!

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:14 PM

These people don't care if you are INAH certified to take pictures. They certainly don't care about Jack, Kevin, Robert, Ed or DK. The road is the most important thing here.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:18 PM

It was the State of Baja California legislators that decided this. Do you think they know who DK is? Do you think they know about his web site?

[Edited on 12-29-2008 by fdt]

longlegsinlapaz - 12-28-2008 at 06:25 PM

You don't even have the power of your own personal convictions?? :?:

Ya never heard the story of the ant & the rubber tree plant obviously?

fdt, extremely doubtful, but if he had contact information he could introduce himself & share it with them!

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:29 PM

It's a lost cause and it's only amatter of time before they demolish all the other ruins of missions that are not working.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:38 PM

Places dissapear for diferent reasons. Right here to the north in Chula Vista USA, the nature center might be closing as early as March due to financial problems the city is having. They are requesting donations http://www.savethechulavistanaturecenter.com/

Maybe Baja Nomads with the leadership of David K could raise enough money like that needed by Chula Vista ($375,000 dollars) to save the missions.
What about a pay website with mission pictures?

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

New highway could be good in many ways, but really hate to see the loss of historical sites. :no:

Diane

You can make a difference, what if a pay web site is available to view pictures of mission sites and each time you visit you would be making a donation.

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
he could introduce himself & share it with them!

With money in hand!

DianaT - 12-28-2008 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

New highway could be good in many ways, but really hate to see the loss of historical sites. :no:

Diane

You can make a difference, what if a pay web site is available to view pictures of mission sites and each time you visit you would be making a donation.

Only if the proceeds went to a save the ruins fund, and only if the donations were matched by the owner of the web site and their sponsors. Perhaps a corporate sponsor could accept this challenge.

Something has to be done---it just isn't right.

Diane

Diane

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 07:30 PM

It's true, something has to be done but who will lead the efforts and how soon can the site start beeing a pay site?

David K - 12-28-2008 at 08:02 PM

A highway route can be altered to save something as important as a regions history... Heck, roads can't be built here if a 'rare' plant, bug or bird are found in the route. Both Santo Tomas and San Vicente sites are aesily avoided by a few hundred feet movement of a route.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that this new highway route ia already mapped out and secured with all landowners and enviromental concerns gave a green light!? It is not done until it is done.

These are CALIFORNIA SPANISH missions on the CAMINO REAL... not just some old abandoned ruins, afterall. If they weren't so poorly cared for and allowed to crumble, then I don't think we would have this discussion.

All we can do is make the locations well known and important... and that is what all of us at VivaBaja.com/BajaMissions have been doing. Keep up the interest in the history of old California... which begins in BAJA!

[Edited on 12-29-2008 by David K]

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 08:23 PM

Let me ask you this;
Is the VivaBaja.com/BajaMissions Group ready to talk to / confront the state of Baja California and make them see how easy it would be to change the route a few yards?

longlegsinlapaz - 12-28-2008 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
A highway route can be altered to save something as important as a regions history... Heck, roads can't be built here if a 'rare' plant, bug or bird are found in the route. Both Santo Tomas and San Vicente sites are aesily avoided by a few hundred feet movement of a route.

here being the operative word! Here in this context is The Unites States of Mexico, not the United States of America!!! The mission ruins aren't in Kansas, Toto. As fdt has repeatedly said, things happen differently here!

David K - 12-28-2008 at 09:38 PM

duh :rolleyes:

David K - 12-28-2008 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Let me ask you this;
Is the VivaBaja.com/BajaMissions Group ready to talk to / confront the state of Baja California and make them see how easy it would be to change the route a few yards?

I would be happy to! :lol:

Barry A. - 12-28-2008 at 09:56 PM

Earle Stanley Gardner did it, working with the authorities, and getting many things done in Baja. No reason other than committment, money, and audacity that it could not be done today. But of course folks have to be "committed", and that is tough when you don't have the time and resources that Gardner did.

Destroying "history" is very short signted, IMO, and damages further the tourist trade-----something that they really should not be doing, it seems to me. Funny that they cannot see that (????)

Barry

fdt - 12-28-2008 at 10:20 PM

9AM to 9PM is enough.
Inocentes palomitas que se dejaron engañar"
Today is Dia de los Inocentes.
583 views and again I remind you December 28th, Dia de los inocentes :saint:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=21697#pid2060...

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=28919#pid2868...

[Edited on 12-29-2008 by fdt]

BAJACAT - 12-29-2008 at 12:19 AM

@#$%$@## Ferna you had me going :mad:

Jack Swords - 12-29-2008 at 05:53 AM

Way to go fdt! You did it again! Just like last year you got lots of action. Can't wait 'til next year.

Pompano - 12-29-2008 at 06:01 AM

And a Baja Aprils Fools to you, too, fdt. You nailed it. Bravo!

woody with a view - 12-29-2008 at 06:13 AM

'Ol Fdt....

i thought he sounded a little grumpy!!! should have known....

bajaandy - 12-29-2008 at 08:22 AM

zzzzzzZZZZZZZ HOOK-UP!!
Nice one FDT.
(Baja Nomads are SO gullible!)

David K - 12-29-2008 at 08:36 AM

:lol:

Good job Fernando!

BajaNomad - 12-29-2008 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Today is Dia de los Inocentes.

"Dirty pool" amigo. :lol:

Just because it may be of interest on the preservation topic:

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2000/may/11/battle-bodega...

-
Doug

Santiago - 12-30-2008 at 06:52 AM

OOOOH Pretty tricky, Flowers. Got me too.

arbee - 12-30-2008 at 07:32 AM

Good job getting everyone worked up. I hope that you continue to do this every year, as I'll probably forget the date and get sucked in again.

and I was about to volunteer chaining myself to the ruins

BajaVida - 12-30-2008 at 06:47 PM

to prevent the bulldozers from knocking them down

fdt - 12-30-2008 at 06:57 PM

:lol:

On the Other Hand..................

MrBillM - 12-30-2008 at 08:32 PM

Shouldn't we applaud the destruction of ALL the Spanish Missions since they represent the oppression, subjugation and destruction of the Aboriginal way of Life in the name of a foreign God ?

Isn't that objective near and dear to the hearts of those who are enlightened and aware of the evil spread in the wake of Chris Colombus' invasion of the western paradise ?

These artifacts of the seeds of that historical Holocaust should be wiped from the earth forever.

Let us Prey.

David K - 12-30-2008 at 08:37 PM

Hi Bill,

Of course... now if we could only have it BOTH ways to please everyone! :?:

Will the PC police ever learn that to try and please everyone, you end up pleasing no one!?

It is in the past and it happened... erasing the evidence doesn't change what once was... Best to remember the past, than to forget it and have it be repeated!

bajalera - 12-31-2008 at 04:33 PM

Splendid point, MrBM! Are you planning to organize a party of Nomads for the tearing down of those notable reminders of past evil, the mission churches at San Ignacio and San Javier?

[Incidentally, these are not "artifacts." Artifacts are portable.]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-31-2008 at 05:00 PM

Me thinks that someone should get in Touch with the Catholic Church Powers and tell them what is getting ready to happen, then the Local poor people who could get togather and stop this Destruction.

DK Send all this Information the the Head /guy of the Chruch in San Diego and los. Angeles. I wager that you will get some help from Them! Contact the nearsest Church in San Quintin, Colonet Manadero etc.. The churches can stop it!!

fdt - 12-31-2008 at 05:09 PM

:lol:

IF I had a Hammer............

MrBillM - 12-31-2008 at 05:41 PM

Actually, I do have some pretty decent hammers. Some of them heavy Sledgehammers.

While I wouldn't be of a mind to organize ANYTHING, if it should become policy to tear them down, count me in for a few blows.

AFTER which, they will certainly be artifacts. While I was using the word to signify "remains", I'll bow to Lera's interpretation since, in Archeology, "portable" seems to be the qualifier. However, if I wanted to weasel on usage, I could use this from the Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

".........Ontologically, an artifact can be a concrete particular object such as the Eiffel Tower, .............."

BUT, I won't since I was obviously applying the word outside its usual definition.

With a little effort by a lot of people, though, we can make artifacts of them all.

Keep me posted. Anything worth building is worth tearing down.