BajaNomad - Trampled by Tramites

Trampled by Tramites

MrBillM - 1-2-2009 at 01:32 PM

Today's segment of the continuing series on Mexico in the L.A. Times describes the bureaucratic quagmire of that country's permitting process. The lead paragraph describes the travails of one Mexico City resident who had visited the Government offices 12 times, standing in lines for hours and hours and, so far, paying $250 in bribes (without luck) to get a "Tramite" to PAINT HIS HOUSE.

The article points out that Mexicans are estimated to have paid Two-Billion dollars in bribes in the "Tramite" process during the last year.

The Calderon government is sponsoring a competition to describe the WORST example of the corrupted process with a Grand-Prize of Fifty-Thousand Dollars going to the winner. Thousands of entries have been received.

DENNIS - 1-2-2009 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Today's segment of the continuing series on Mexico in the L.A. Times describes the bureaucratic quagmire of that country's permitting process. The lead paragraph describes the travails of one Mexico City resident who had visited the Government offices 12 times, standing in lines for hours and hours and, so far, paying $250 in bribes (without luck) to get a "Tramite" to PAINT HIS HOUSE.

Unbelievable...One must get a permit to paint his house? Sounds like Democracy under Stalin.

BajaDove - 1-2-2009 at 01:38 PM

Fifty thousand dollars is bound to corrupt someone.

Osprey - 1-2-2009 at 01:47 PM

Don't know who sent it in, where it is now but a long time ago some board member found an article about mordida in Mexico where they polled 14,000 Mexicans on how much mordida they paid as a percentage of their annual wage. The few, then, middle class families paid 12% if I remember correctly but those at or below minimum wage paid a staggering 29.5% for everything they did, everything you might imagine and then some. Gringos pay almost zero -- just not used to it, fight it, yell, scream, sue.

Pescador - 1-2-2009 at 06:43 PM

The other day I went in to get my fishing license and the guy at the counter said he would be happy to fill out all the applications and paperwork for 50 pesos. I figured that was a pretty good deal since I did not know exactly what was supposed to go on a rather blank looking piece of paper. My wife said, you know we are so lucky to live here and we really don't pay much or anything for the privelege, so I really don't mind when we have those occasional "tacked on and added fees". Guess it kinda depends on your perspective.

DENNIS - 1-3-2009 at 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
so I really don't mind when we have those occasional "tacked on and added fees". Guess it kinda depends on your perspective.

I have to agree but, would the perspective change if you had to buy a permit to paint your house?

ArroyoTaxi - 1-3-2009 at 09:27 PM

Almost as unbelievable as an American in 2008 using a totally unacceptable racist slur to describe asians.

Pescador - 1-4-2009 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

I have to agree but, would the perspective change if you had to buy a permit to paint your house?

You bet it woud. Not sure how I would handle that one. The two times this year that I did have somewhat of a tramite was with the fishing license, and a small fine for being late on renewal of my FM3. Immigration apologized profusely and indicated that they had to charge something but cut the fine in half according to the document he had which he said he could do since we had a letter relating to my wife's health problems. I felt good enough that I gave a big yellowtail to each of the immigration people for Christmas.

DENNIS - 1-4-2009 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

You bet it woud. Not sure how I would handle that one. The two times this year that I did have somewhat of a tramite was with the fishing license, and a small fine for being late on renewal of my FM3. Immigration apologized profusely and indicated that they had to charge something but cut the fine in half according to the document he had which he said he could do since we had a letter relating to my wife's health problems. I felt good enough that I gave a big yellowtail to each of the immigration people for Christmas.

Good story. Thanks.

mordida

Mexicali_Kid - 1-6-2009 at 10:12 AM

I haven't paid a cash bribe in Mexico in over ten years.

If you are still paying "mordida", to get a fishing license, avoid a traffic fine, or to get a "tramite", you are perpetuating the problem.

A smile and patience will go a long way toward getting things done the right way.

Pay to Play

MrBillM - 1-6-2009 at 10:33 AM

While we (but not I) Gringos may massage their ego by not paying Mordida, it's immaterial to the situation.

As the referenced article made clear, the BULK of "Tramites" are paid by the Mexicans themselves.

Personally, I'll continue to do whatever is in MY best interests and, often, that includes paying to play.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by MrBillM]

Barry A. - 1-6-2009 at 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
While we (but not I) Gringos may massage their ego by not paying Mordida, it's immaterial to the situation.

As the referenced article made clear, the BULK of "Tramates" are paid by the Mexicans themselves.

Personally, I'll continue to do whatever is in MY best interests and, often, that includes paying to play.

"you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution"--------your call.

Barry

Pescador - 1-6-2009 at 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicali_Kid
I haven't paid a cash bribe in Mexico in over ten years.

If you are still paying "mordida", to get a fishing license, avoid a traffic fine, or to get a "tramite", you are perpetuating the problem.

A smile and patience will go a long way toward getting things done the right way.

As a blanket statement, and calling what the Mexicans refer to as a tramite a mordida, you fail to understand the difference between the two. I got pulled over in Constitucion one time for a shake down by a police officer that was riding around with some scumball who was wearing enough gold to qualify for a "Mr. T starter Set" and I absolutley refused to pay anything and raised enough of a fuss that the cop finally said, relax, it's OK. I started screaming that I was not going to pay anything and if he persisted we could go to the Justicia and he could explain why he was riding around with the cartel people while I explained that I had done nothing wrong and refused to pay. But to call that the same issue shows your lack of cultural sensitivity to the fishing license issue. The clerk offered to fill out the forms for a simple 60 pesos and I was more than happy to pay for him to do just that. I could have had another person in town do the same exact job but she charges 125 pesos, so I thought I was doing a good job of gettting it done. It is so easy to forget that we live or travel in a foreign country and it is so easy to carry our way of doing things on our shoulder. There are times to go with the flow and there are times to not do that, the wisdom comes with knowing the difference.

Sharksbaja - 1-6-2009 at 07:49 PM

A freaking men!

YOUR Problems and MY Solutions.

MrBillM - 1-7-2009 at 10:59 AM

Since I don't find paying Mordida to be a PROBLEM, there is no need for a SOLUTION. The system works fine as far as I'm concerned. I can afford the (usually) reasonable payment to avoid difficulties I don't wish to deal with. It's just another service which I am willing to pay for.

For those who DO consider it a problem, for moral, financial or other reasons, I suggest they deal with it as best they can.

Good Luck.

While you're at it, take care of over-population, world hunger, global warming and the falling economy. Let me know how it goes.

Barry A. - 1-7-2009 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Since I don't find paying Mordida to be a PROBLEM, there is no need for a SOLUTION. The system works fine as far as I'm concerned. I can afford the (usually) reasonable payment to avoid difficulties I don't wish to deal with. It's just another service which I am willing to pay for.

For those who DO consider it a problem, for moral, financial or other reasons, I suggest they deal with it as best they can.

Good Luck.

While you're at it, take care of over-population, world hunger, global warming and the falling economy. Let me know how it goes.

Bill------

I don't think there are many that think the Mordida system is beneficial to a society, ANY society. That makes it a universal "problem" to my way of thinking, and there IS something I can do about that-----refuse to participate.

The other stuff you want me to tackle is way over my head, as I see it, but if I see a way that I can change my personal habits that will help to illiminate any of those other problems, then I will.

That's just the way I see it, and the way I was taught.

Barry

CaboRon - 1-8-2009 at 06:51 AM

Quote:

I agree with your statement ....

CaboRon

k-rico - 1-8-2009 at 07:18 AM

$250 to get a permit to paint your house? That's outrageous! I recently went to the local delegation's office to get a permit to wash my windows and the guy charged me only $50, which I skillfully bartered down to $48.

BajaDove - 1-8-2009 at 05:40 PM

Mordida to the cop on the corner we don't pay; smile and nod while saying "Si to the officina" until he gives you the ticket or gives up

We have done a lot of constructing since we've been here. We Let the contractor handle the permit. In the event he hasn't. We have back of envelope records of payment.
having been caught we found those records of what we paid were run through a rate and the fine was based on wages and very reasonable.

LOSARIPES - 1-15-2009 at 06:30 AM

Mordida is illegal; corrupt and immoral. An officer asking for or accepting a mordida is no good for the position he is holding.
I recently wrote to the city government a complaint about the "Revista" (Your car's physical inspection every year). Without the revista, you cant get your registration renewed. Can't drive your car.
Well, you can pay somebody to have your car "inspected" without even seeing it. That is.... if you pay a mordida.... but if you don't have the stupid revista sticker on the windshield for whatever reason, they will stop you and fine you... or ask for a mordida... so... my point is: We create the monster,we feed it and then it comes back and bites us. Or put in different words, other people create the monster but it still it comes back and bites us.
And this happens all over the place to everybody having to do with any government branch all over the country. It is sickening.
This mordida thing can work wonders in your favor sometimes. In the long run it hurts you and all.
Imagine the guy who saw his neighbor convert his house into a car wash, generating all kinds of noise, vapors, smells and so on. It may be illegal but he bribed somebody and will be "protected" by the corrupt officer for quite a while before you can have him shut his business down.
Or the case where you have a car accident that involves someone with "connection$" and you end up losing the arbitration as result of that.

A corrupt society is a bunch of thieves stealing from each other functioning under a devalued moral code.

I personally pay my taxes, obey the rules and expect everybody else to do the same. There can no be freedom without law. Somebody said that and I repeat it.

Ok..... I am done.... I am cool now...

DENNIS - 1-15-2009 at 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOSARIPES
Mordida is illegal; corrupt and immoral.

Mordida in it's most pure form is ideal. Those who break the law support law enforcement.
OK...I know. There is no pure form. Greed is stronger than idealism. It was just a stupid, senseless, naive thought.

BajaGringo - 1-15-2009 at 12:05 PM

But I like how you think...

DENNIS - 1-15-2009 at 01:43 PM

Nice glasses....very kool.

BajaGringo - 1-15-2009 at 04:10 PM

Corky made them for me. I probably should check with Glen's publicist to make sure it's okay first...

:lol:

Woooosh - 1-15-2009 at 04:21 PM

I spent half the day yesterady at the Rosarito Palacio trying to pay my property taxes. No problems for many years- just wait in line and pay. This year they told me the lot was vacant and I didn't have a house. Gotta love this country. Everyone in line had a good laugh too.

They make four copies of everything, stamp them, process them and then don't do anything with them. I had to pay 50 pesos at another window to show a house was there and then go back and pay the tax. I was tempted to just pay the lower rate for the empty lot- but then someone would just try to steal the lot. lol

BajaGringo - 1-15-2009 at 04:27 PM

And I was going to ask you how much you wanted for that abandoned lot???

sylens - 1-15-2009 at 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I spent half the day yesterady at the Rosarito Palacio trying to pay my property taxes. No problems for many years- just wait in line and pay. This year they told me the lot was vacant and I didn't have a house. Gotta love this country. Everyone in line had a good laugh too.

They make four copies of everything, stamp them, process them and then don't do anything with them. I had to pay 50 pesos at another window to show a house was there and then go back and pay the tax. I was tempted to just pay the lower rate for the empty lot- but then someone would just try to steal the lot. lol

i know there are no general rules here in mexico :lol:

but at least here in ensenada, they charge HIGHER :bounce:

property taxes for empty lots. they are incentivizing folks to build on lots they purchase. we learned this quite by accident one year when i noticed something on the receipt that indicated we were paying for an empty lot.

and as you indicated, it was a pain in the burro to go to different offices to get the necessary paperwork to update our forms to show that the lot was not vacant. but it was well worth it, as the taxes were significantly reduced :bounce:

not that they were high to begin with :spingrin:

LOSARIPES - 1-16-2009 at 05:39 AM

Property taxes are higher in La Paz for empty lots as well... I found that out at the register window last month.

Woooosh - 1-16-2009 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sylens

Quote:

i know there are no general rules here in mexico :lol:

but at least here in ensenada, they charge HIGHER :bounce:

not that they were high to begin with :spingrin:

You are right! We were surprised when the property taxes were lower this year- a whopping 653 pesos (we got 10 percent off for paying early I guess- or it would have been 725).

I did notice that the city of Rosarito posted signs on all the vacant lots recently posting the owners names and telling the owners to clean the trash up and keep them clean. The signs all blew away during the santana winds though (or at least I think that's how the signs came down).