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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Trampled by Tramites
Today's segment of the continuing series on Mexico in the L.A. Times describes the bureaucratic quagmire of that country's permitting process. The
lead paragraph describes the travails of one Mexico City resident who had visited the Government offices 12 times, standing in lines for hours and
hours and, so far, paying $250 in bribes (without luck) to get a "Tramite" to PAINT HIS HOUSE.
The article points out that Mexicans are estimated to have paid Two-Billion dollars in bribes in the "Tramite" process during the last year.
The Calderon government is sponsoring a competition to describe the WORST example of the corrupted process with a Grand-Prize of Fifty-Thousand
Dollars going to the winner. Thousands of entries have been received.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Today's segment of the continuing series on Mexico in the L.A. Times describes the bureaucratic quagmire of that country's permitting process. The
lead paragraph describes the travails of one Mexico City resident who had visited the Government offices 12 times, standing in lines for hours and
hours and, so far, paying $250 in bribes (without luck) to get a "Tramite" to PAINT HIS HOUSE.
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Unbelievable...One must get a permit to paint his house? Sounds like Democracy under Stalin.
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BajaDove
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Registered: 11-23-2008
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Fifty thousand dollars is bound to corrupt someone.
If its not where it is, its where it isn\'t.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Don't know who sent it in, where it is now but a long time ago some board member found an article about mordida in Mexico where they polled 14,000
Mexicans on how much mordida they paid as a percentage of their annual wage. The few, then, middle class families paid 12% if I remember correctly but
those at or below minimum wage paid a staggering 29.5% for everything they did, everything you might imagine and then some. Gringos pay almost zero --
just not used to it, fight it, yell, scream, sue.
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Pescador
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Location: Baja California Sur
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The other day I went in to get my fishing license and the guy at the counter said he would be happy to fill out all the applications and paperwork for
50 pesos. I figured that was a pretty good deal since I did not know exactly what was supposed to go on a rather blank looking piece of paper. My
wife said, you know we are so lucky to live here and we really don't pay much or anything for the privelege, so I really don't mind when we have those
occasional "tacked on and added fees". Guess it kinda depends on your perspective.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
so I really don't mind when we have those occasional "tacked on and added fees". Guess it kinda depends on your perspective. |
I have to agree but, would the perspective change if you had to buy a permit to paint your house?
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ArroyoTaxi
Junior Nomad
Posts: 88
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Los Barriles
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Almost as unbelievable as an American in 2008 using a totally unacceptable racist slur to describe asians.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I have to agree but, would the perspective change if you had to buy a permit to paint your house? |
You bet it woud. Not sure how I would handle that one. The two times this year that I did have somewhat of a tramite was with the fishing license,
and a small fine for being late on renewal of my FM3. Immigration apologized profusely and indicated that they had to charge something but cut the
fine in half according to the document he had which he said he could do since we had a letter relating to my wife's health problems. I felt good
enough that I gave a big yellowtail to each of the immigration people for Christmas.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
You bet it woud. Not sure how I would handle that one. The two times this year that I did have somewhat of a tramite was with the fishing license,
and a small fine for being late on renewal of my FM3. Immigration apologized profusely and indicated that they had to charge something but cut the
fine in half according to the document he had which he said he could do since we had a letter relating to my wife's health problems. I felt good
enough that I gave a big yellowtail to each of the immigration people for Christmas. |
Good story. Thanks.
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Mexicali_Kid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 45
Registered: 7-15-2008
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mordida
I haven't paid a cash bribe in Mexico in over ten years.
If you are still paying "mordida", to get a fishing license, avoid a traffic fine, or to get a "tramite", you are perpetuating the problem.
A smile and patience will go a long way toward getting things done the right way.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
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Registered: 8-20-2003
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Pay to Play
While we (but not I) Gringos may massage their ego by not paying Mordida, it's immaterial to the situation.
As the referenced article made clear, the BULK of "Tramites" are paid by the Mexicans themselves.
Personally, I'll continue to do whatever is in MY best interests and, often, that includes paying to play.
[Edited on 1-7-2009 by MrBillM]
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
While we (but not I) Gringos may massage their ego by not paying Mordida, it's immaterial to the situation.
As the referenced article made clear, the BULK of "Tramates" are paid by the Mexicans themselves.
Personally, I'll continue to do whatever is in MY best interests and, often, that includes paying to play. |
"you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution"--------your call.
Barry
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexicali_Kid
I haven't paid a cash bribe in Mexico in over ten years.
If you are still paying "mordida", to get a fishing license, avoid a traffic fine, or to get a "tramite", you are perpetuating the problem.
A smile and patience will go a long way toward getting things done the right way. |
As a blanket statement, and calling what the Mexicans refer to as a tramite a mordida, you fail to understand the difference between the two. I got
pulled over in Constitucion one time for a shake down by a police officer that was riding around with some scumball who was wearing enough gold to
qualify for a "Mr. T starter Set" and I absolutley refused to pay anything and raised enough of a fuss that the cop finally said, relax, it's OK. I
started screaming that I was not going to pay anything and if he persisted we could go to the Justicia and he could explain why he was riding around
with the cartel people while I explained that I had done nothing wrong and refused to pay. But to call that the same issue shows your lack of
cultural sensitivity to the fishing license issue. The clerk offered to fill out the forms for a simple 60 pesos and I was more than happy to pay for
him to do just that. I could have had another person in town do the same exact job but she charges 125 pesos, so I thought I was doing a good job of
gettting it done. It is so easy to forget that we live or travel in a foreign country and it is so easy to carry our way of doing things on our
shoulder. There are times to go with the flow and there are times to not do that, the wisdom comes with knowing the difference.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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A freaking men!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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YOUR Problems and MY Solutions.
Since I don't find paying Mordida to be a PROBLEM, there is no need for a SOLUTION. The system works fine as far as I'm concerned.
I can afford the (usually) reasonable payment to avoid difficulties I don't wish to deal with. It's just another service which I am willing to pay
for.
For those who DO consider it a problem, for moral, financial or other reasons, I suggest they deal with it as best they can.
Good Luck.
While you're at it, take care of over-population, world hunger, global warming and the falling economy. Let me know how it goes.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Since I don't find paying Mordida to be a PROBLEM, there is no need for a SOLUTION. The system works fine as far as I'm concerned.
I can afford the (usually) reasonable payment to avoid difficulties I don't wish to deal with. It's just another service which I am willing to pay
for.
For those who DO consider it a problem, for moral, financial or other reasons, I suggest they deal with it as best they can.
Good Luck.
While you're at it, take care of over-population, world hunger, global warming and the falling economy. Let me know how it goes.
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Bill------
I don't think there are many that think the Mordida system is beneficial to a society, ANY society. That makes it a universal "problem" to my way of
thinking, and there IS something I can do about that-----refuse to participate.
The other stuff you want me to tackle is way over my head, as I see it, but if I see a way that I can change my personal habits that will help to
illiminate any of those other problems, then I will.
That's just the way I see it, and the way I was taught.
Barry
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
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Location: The Valley of the Moon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexicali_Kid
I haven't paid a cash bribe in Mexico in over ten years.
If you are still paying "mordida", to get a fishing license, avoid a traffic fine, or to get a "tramite", you are perpetuating the problem.
A smile and patience will go a long way toward getting things done the right way. |
I agree with your statement ....
CaboRon
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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$250 to get a permit to paint your house? That's outrageous! I recently went to the local delegation's office to get a permit to wash my windows and
the guy charged me only $50, which I skillfully bartered down to $48.
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BajaDove
Nomad
Posts: 194
Registered: 11-23-2008
Location: La Paz
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Mordida to the cop on the corner we don't pay; smile and nod while saying "Si to the officina" until he gives you the ticket or gives up
We have done a lot of constructing since we've been here. We Let the contractor handle the permit. In the event he hasn't. We have back of envelope
records of payment.
having been caught we found those records of what we paid were run through a rate and the fine was based on wages and very reasonable.
If its not where it is, its where it isn\'t.
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LOSARIPES
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Posts: 283
Registered: 8-14-2008
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Mordida is illegal; corrupt and immoral. An officer asking for or accepting a mordida is no good for the position he is holding.
I recently wrote to the city government a complaint about the "Revista" (Your car's physical inspection every year). Without the revista, you cant get
your registration renewed. Can't drive your car.
Well, you can pay somebody to have your car "inspected" without even seeing it. That is.... if you pay a mordida.... but if you don't have the
stupid revista sticker on the windshield for whatever reason, they will stop you and fine you... or ask for a mordida... so... my point is: We
create the monster,we feed it and then it comes back and bites us. Or put in different words, other people create the monster but it still it comes
back and bites us.
And this happens all over the place to everybody having to do with any government branch all over the country. It is sickening.
This mordida thing can work wonders in your favor sometimes. In the long run it hurts you and all.
Imagine the guy who saw his neighbor convert his house into a car wash, generating all kinds of noise, vapors, smells and so on. It may be illegal but
he bribed somebody and will be "protected" by the corrupt officer for quite a while before you can have him shut his business down.
Or the case where you have a car accident that involves someone with "connection$" and you end up losing the arbitration as result of that.
A corrupt society is a bunch of thieves stealing from each other functioning under a devalued moral code.
I personally pay my taxes, obey the rules and expect everybody else to do the same. There can no be freedom without law. Somebody said that and I
repeat it.
Ok..... I am done.... I am cool now...
Aripes
God bless America
and Baja tambien
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