BajaNomad - Mexico could postpone Pacific port's construction

Mexico could postpone Pacific port's construction

bajabound2005 - 1-13-2009 at 02:15 PM

Mexico could postpone Pacific port's construction
23 minutes ago

MEXICO CITY (AP) — Mexico's Transportation Secretary Luis Tellez says the construction of a huge new Pacific seaport in Baja California could be postponed because of the world economic slowdown. The port could compete with Long Beach and Los Angeles if built.

Tellez says two U.S. banks are working with Mexico to determine if it's still possible to finance the $5 billion Punta Colonet project.

Tellez said Tuesday that the deadline for companies to register for the bidding process will likely be extended past the current Jan. 26.

The port would transform a wind-swept bay 150 miles (240 kilometers) south of the U.S. border into a booming port city, creating an estimated 80,000 jobs, drawing freighters from Asia and funneling manufactured goods north.

BajaGringo - 1-13-2009 at 02:28 PM

The rumor going around is that the bidders are putting pressure on Mexico to lower the very steep bonds they are required to post. Who knows how this is going to pan out. I sense that everybody is waiting to see what is going to happen with the US economy post GWB...

DENNIS - 1-13-2009 at 02:29 PM

Financing for this project has to be completely transparent and verifiable. There's a lot of money in Mexico that needs to be cleaned.
On the other hand, Carlos Slim has that much in his pocket.

Hook - 1-13-2009 at 02:33 PM

The more effects I see of "world economic slowdowns", the more I like them.

BajaGringo - 1-13-2009 at 02:34 PM

I have heard some folks in the area (politically connected) that refer to it as "Slim's Port"

Bajahowodd - 1-13-2009 at 04:05 PM

I'm betting that this project will be delayed a few years. There is now, and in the next few years, little sense in pumping all that money in, when Long beach and LA ports are running on empty. Whoever invests, be it U.S. banks or other foreign bank will need a return on that investment. That means lotsa ships and containers passing through. People are only buying what they absolutely need right now. Until there is a rebound in consumer confidence, there will be no demand for discretionary goods.

And as for Carlos Slim, not bad for a guy who put himself through college driving a taxi.

David K - 1-13-2009 at 04:12 PM

Something always comes up to slow development on the peninsula, north of Cabo (thank goodness).

Who here remembers Escalera Nautica? :lol:

The beauty of Baja is timeless... change the beauty with paved or graded roads, power lines, breakwaters, unfinished projects (Puerto Escondido)... and that changes the beauty of and time one wants to spend, in Baja.

BajaGringo - 1-13-2009 at 04:16 PM

The fate of this project will solely be determined by economics. I think that it will take at least until 2010 before any of the big players make any serious moves on the port.

DianaT - 1-13-2009 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Something always comes up to slow development on the peninsula, north of Cabo (thank goodness).

I am sure the locals who can benefit from development with things like jobs, would agree with you---thank goodness it isn't happening. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

The beauty of Baja is timeless... change the beauty with paved or graded roads, power lines, breakwaters, unfinished projects (Puerto Escondido)... and that changes the beauty of and time one wants to spend, in Baja.

Yes, we prefer Baja and many other places stay as they are---but we also know that our preference is very selfish and does not consider the well-being of many people.

The more we live in Baja, the more we see Baja as the people, and our priorities have adjusted. We look at things as to how they might benefit the well-being of the citizens of Baja, not the desires of the guests in the country, including us.

Diane

BajaGringo - 1-13-2009 at 04:52 PM

I understand what you mean David that it would be nice on some idealistic level to keep things as they are. All of us feel that way at times. Heck, I felt that way as a young kid wandering around the coastal areas of south Orange County that bare little resemblance today to their past. However if you look at the economy of the Orange County area you know what an important role that area has played and I doubt that you would have little luck finding support to "turn back the clock".

Living down here on the peninsula for years I have worked closely with the people who have spent their entire lives here. Like Diane, I also have come to understand that they have the right to pursue the same economic dream that so many of us have had the opportunity to do so. It would be quite ignorant and condescending of us not to do so.

What I want is for Baja to be able develop but in smart ways, finding the most obtainable balance of protecting the environment and history while providing economic opportunities for the people here. It is not easy and as arm-chair quarterbacks we really are quick to second guess at times.

Ideal solutions are often difficult to obtain but if we don't at least try we stand no chance...

fishbuck - 1-13-2009 at 05:06 PM

If that port gets developed it will be a terrible day for Baja as we know it.
I work in Long Beach and know 1st hand what it's like. Long Beach has the most polluted air in SoCal from the harbor. The highest cancer rates too.
But I really don't think it's a problem. Many other places are already improving their ports and the Panama canal is being widened right now. It will accomdate the largest ships built and will negate the necessity of offloading cargo on the west coast. Much of the cargo is bound for the east coast and Europe.
The canal widening will be complete before 1 shovel full of dirt is turned at Colonet.
I don't mind being selfish when it comes to Baja developement. I'd like it to stay just as it is and maybe even go backwards.
Why should I care how the people in Baja make a living. I'm quite certain they don't care how I get my money just as long as I spend some in Baja while I'm there.

If Baja starts to become too much like SoCal then what would be the point of going there?
It needs to remain primitive, natural and special. If they loose that then they have lost me.

DianaT - 1-13-2009 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Like Diane, I also have come to understand that they have the right to pursue the same economic dream that so many of us have had the opportunity to do so. It would be quite ignorant and condescending of us not to do so.

What I want is for Baja to be able develop but in smart ways, finding the most obtainable balance of protecting the environment and history while providing economic opportunities for the people here. It is not easy and as arm-chair quarterbacks we really are quick to second guess at times.

Ideal solutions are often difficult to obtain but if we don't at least try we stand no chance...

Very well said. :yes:

DianaT - 1-13-2009 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
I don't mind being selfish when it comes to Baja developement. I'd like it to stay just as it is and maybe even go backwards.

Why should I care how the people in Baja make a living. I'm quite certain they don't care how I get my money just as long as I spend some in Baja while I'm there.

Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time. :no:

Diane

Diane

David K - 1-13-2009 at 05:41 PM

In many cases, people weren't there before development.

It a twin edged sword... good and bad. People stayed in Baja for the simple life... If they wanted modern living and sevices they moved to the cities or the mainland. The simple life is also what attracts most of Baja's original visitors who wanted to escape 'civilization', for a break.

It is so STRANGE when people come to Baja (because they like it there, the way it is) and then want to CHANGE it!!??? :wow:

How does THAT make any sense... to change it to what you LEFT!?

Sure, it would be cool if Hwy. 1 wasn't built... However, getting to L.A. Bay in 8 hours wouldn't be possible... Really about 6 days or more to reach La Paz unless you were in a race buggy, because to travel 150 miles in one day on the old Baja main road was doing good!

What I see as the biggest blight is the UNFINISHED/ abandoned projects... like Puerto Escondido and The Escalera Nautica disaster at Santa Rosalillita... hoping it never gets stared at L.A. Bay or anywhere else.

That kind of wishful thinking by Mexican politicians HUTRTS Baja... Both tourism, and natural enviroment/ sea shore. It is hard to make pretty once something is paved over... and left to rot.

My family and I used to camp on the shore of Puerto/ Bahia Escondido... along with many others... A great place... It was... Then it was fenced off when the project started... The French (behind the project) pulled out, and the Mexican developer disappeared. No longer can anyone camp on the shore of the bay, go fishing or swimming or kayaking...

Other such projects have scarred the landscape with gradiose entrances and deserted property beyond... We see them... No completion mandates in Mexico, I guess?

Sure the people should have what they need if they are already there... but to come to a tiny village and demand city-like services...? Stay in the city!

There was something really magic about a town that turned off its lights at 10-11 pm and let the Baja night sky take over (Bahia de los Angeles). Somehow people survived, the beer didn't get too warm before the morning, and life was more special when you spent time visiting with your neighbors instead of watching Telamundo.

L.A. Bay now has 24 hour power via poles and wires from Guerrero Negro, along the highway. The main street in town, is a wreck, with whoever making one side a meter lower than the other, requiring multiple U turns and excess driving just to go from business to business... Progress? That's progress??

Okay, I'm ranting... life goes on!

Thanks for your support!

BajaGringo - 1-13-2009 at 05:41 PM

I also find it kind of funny how so many in this forum want for the Mexicans to stay on the south side of the border but discourage the development of jobs that would keep them here.

Kind of a Catch-22 I guess...

:rolleyes:

Bajahowodd - 1-13-2009 at 05:42 PM

Fishbuck-
How would you feel if a bunch of foreigners decided that you shouldn't have the opportunity to make a decent living, just so they can enjoy themselves. Thorny issue.

fishbuck - 1-13-2009 at 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Quote:

Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time. :no:

Diane

Diane

Well, yes I do like to have a good time. And I will usually spend money to get it. And I guess I hope it benefits the locals when I spend some money. But that is really their business.
Mine is having a good time.
If the locals have something I want I will spend money on it if it is a fair price. If they don't, my money stays in my pocket and I move along to the next little town to see if they have anything I want or need.

fishbuck - 1-13-2009 at 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Fishbuck-
How would you feel if a bunch of foreigners decided that you shouldn't have the opportunity to make a decent living, just so they can enjoy themselves. Thorny issue.

Incase you haven't been noticing it happens everyday.

But to be honest I don't really care what foreigners think.
I mind my own business and do the best I can.
Life is too short to carry all the worries of the world around.

I will be 50 in just a few months. I figure I have about 20 more really good years. Maybe 30.
I still need to build my beach house and catch more fish. Oh ya, I'm still looking for a beautiful lady to share it with too.

So I don't really have time to play God on issues of developement and opportunity for people because it's a full time job just trying to live my own life.

But if you have all that free time to ponder about life please feel free to do so.
I'll be busy earning a buck so I can spend it having a good time in Baja.

DENNIS - 1-13-2009 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

That's being a bit tough on the Fish. We all know the attraction of Baja and it isn't progress. It's a quest to find what Krutch was refering to when he coined the phrase, "The land where time stood still"...or something like that. Who in their right mind would rather see a progressive, smelly freight port than a pristine, unadulterated harbor, clean and free of marks left by the hand of man? Not me.
I know progress is inevitible but it isn't my environment of choice.
r

DianaT - 1-13-2009 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

It a twin edged sword... good and bad. People stayed in Baja for the simple life... If they wanted modern living and sevices they moved to the cities or the mainland. The simple life is also what attracts most of Baja's original visitors who wanted to escape 'civilization', for a break.

You know this? How do you know this? People all have that type of mobility? The families in Bahia Asuncion came from other parts of Baja, but they were not seeking "the simple life" They were seeking a way to make a living and fishing is not a "simple life'"

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
It is so STRANGE when people come to Baja (because they like it there, the way it is) and then want to CHANGE it!!??? :wow:

How does THAT make any sense... to change it to what you LEFT!?

Who wants to make the changes? It is not us who are happy that the road to Bahia Asuncion is being paved, or that a new cell tower and high speed internet came to town. Nor are we thrilled with the new hotel and the development. But, many, many of the locals are happy---makes their lives eaiser and they hope to economically benefit from the progress. THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT---WHAT THEY WANT AND WHAT BENEFITS THEM---NOT YOU NOR US.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Sure the people should have what they need if they are already there... but to come to a tiny village and demand city-like services...? Stay in the city!

Some of those people have been in those villages all of their lives----they didn't come to the tiny village---oh, or did you mean the gringos? Again, the gringos I know in the smaller villages are not the ones looking for change.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
There was something really magic about a town that turned off its lights at 10-11 pm and let the Baja night sky take over (Bahia de los Angeles). Somehow people survived, the beer didn't get too warm before the morning, and life was more special when you spent time visiting with your neighbors instead of watching Telamundo.

Magic for whom? YOU? Yes, there are many places like San Cristobal in Southern Mexico that we loved when the electricity was turned off at night, and there were no things like internet. But the last time we were there, some business owners told us how happy they were with the progress.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay, I'm ranting... life goes on!
Thanks for your support!

Baja is for the Mexican people and needs to develop for the benefit of Mexico and the Mexican people, not just as a nice place for Gringos to escape.

Ugly mistakes have been made, but it is THEIR country for THEIR benefit----not yours.

Yes, I know some locals who don't want change, but a lot are really looking forward to change. IT IS THEIR DEBATE, THEIR CHOICE.

Gees, you live in Vista? So much of the north county area used to be pristine, beautiful, and undeveloped. It was a beautiful drive from LA to the rather small city of San Diego.

Ok, I am done with this because you not only will never understand because it is always all about you, but you will have the last word, or last whine, whatever it may be.

Diane

fishbuck - 1-13-2009 at 07:17 PM

Diane, did you ever consider that change or progress can be mutually beneificial?
But the day that going to Baja does not benefit me in the way that I am looking for is the day I start going somewhere else.
I can not see any benefit to me of a deep water port larger than LA-Long Beach put together. The drive from the border to Colonet would be unbearable with truck traffic.
Whether you want to admit it or not expats are a part of Baja now. And our needs and wants should be factored in to any progress being contemplated that will effect quality of life issues. Baja is for all the people there not just the locals.
I didn't think that paving your road was a bad thing.

movinguy - 1-13-2009 at 07:36 PM

Fish -

Keep an open mind, my friend. You're a year older and a far better fisherman than I, I'm sure. But I had the good fortune to find that beautiful Baja lady - and the beach house.

Our dream of keeping Baja pristine is about as realistic as their dream of getting Alta California back. Punta Colonet may in fact never happen - plenty of people losing their shirts in that particular land rush.

Keep the dream alive Fish - I wish you well . . . :cool:

Bajahowodd - 1-13-2009 at 07:48 PM

If the Colonet project goes forward, there will be a four-lane bypass road, so that those looking to head south of colonet might actually benefit. Anyone who travels the peninsula already knows that there are bottlenecks on the current road, especially from Ensenada to San Quintin.

Sharksbaja - 1-13-2009 at 08:11 PM

Now now children. You can't have yer cake and eat it too!

Or can you?? I tend to think so in some locales, but how do you constrain outsiders from picking up the proverbial gavel? Money just talks way too loud. Can that be constrained? I think not.

Most coastal retreats become valuable real estate eventually. If some big wig or Corp wants to move into town they will pay to. You can't stop a runaway train easily.

I BA were to have protected harbor it would have been overrun a long time ago. Make it easy and they will. Good bad and ugly. In the name of progress they will claim.

Now that our park has gone the HOA route, there's an omnipresent change occuring. It's certainly not of Mexican origin and frankly seems way out of place but it makes someone happy.

It's all about balance. Add a Walmart etc. and whole town changes along with it.

Providing a good time

Dave - 1-14-2009 at 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time. :no:

Diane

Diane

That's what a successful tourist industry does.

Mexico to postpone and may cancel Punta Colonet port

Tommy A - 1-14-2009 at 09:40 AM

A drop in traffic on the Pacific Coast has made it more difficult for possible bidders to get financing, an official says. The port could potentially compete with Southern California terminals.
Bloomberg News
9:34 PM PST, January 13, 2009
Mexico will postpone construction of its planned Punta Colonet port on the Pacific Coast and may scrap the project entirely as interested bidders struggle to find financing for the $4.88-billion complex.

The first simultaneous recession in the U.S., Japan and Europe since World War II has led to a 30% drop in port traffic on the U.S. and Canadian Pacific coasts, making it difficult for potential bidders to get financing, Mexican Communications and Transportation Minister Luis Tellez said in Mexico City.

We are working with banks to see if this will be possible," he said Tuesday. "There is still interest in the project; it is just a matter of timing."

The port, in northern Baja California, was the single biggest portion of Mexican President Felipe Calderon's pledge to spend 570 billion pesos ($41.2 billion) a year in public and private money on road, port and other infrastructure projects through 2012. The plans called for building an airport, highways and a rail link to the U.S. as part of Colonet.

Citigroup Inc. and another U.S. bank are advising Mexico on Colonet and will present a plan by the end of the month that recommends whether the port should be built, Tellez said.

Mexican officials had said the port, 150 miles south of San Diego, would triple the amount of cargo the country could handle and might lure traffic from terminals in the U.S.

Mexico will go forward with other projects for which companies have said they will probably find financing, including building an airport on the Riviera Maya, near Cancun.

DianaT - 1-14-2009 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time. :no:

Diane

Diane

That's what a successful tourist industry does.

Totally agree about the tourist industry--yes, that is their job.

I was more referring to what appears to be an attitude shared by some that Baja is strictly for them and their pleasure and they don't give a rip about the people and their well being---not necessarily the ones in the tourist industry. I was not clear.

Thanks
Diane

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
I was more referring to what appears to be an attitude shared by some that Baja is strictly for them and their pleasure and they don't give a rip about the people and their well being---not necessarily the ones in the tourist industry.

That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare. How many of you ever stop to think what kind of life some of these folks go home to who bring you your food, beer, pump your gas, work as cashiers, etc?

You want to keep Baja exactly as it is with no new progress. Sounds fantastic but no progress also means no new economic opportunities for these people. The California coastline from San Diego to Los Angeles was a pristine place many decades ago. It has changed and a high percentage of you here in this forum have benefited financially from that Southern California economic development, directly or indirectly.

You want to come and enjoy the beauty of this peninsula with the money earned from that economic development north of the border and at the same time you want to deny that opportunity to them so you can enjoy your vacations and retirement? Geez, I guess that makes sense. In fact if we keep the area undeveloped that will help keep the salaries down so we can keep taking advantage of these cheap services???

God forbid if any of these poor folks try to go north of the border and pursue the same economic dreams so many of us did. We will have none of that!!!

The long term solution to the illegal immigration issue is Mexico developing more economic opportunities for its people. Many of those opportunities will happen along coastlines, as did in Alta California.

For us to take advantage of and benefit from that economic potential north of the border and at the same time want to deny that same opportunity these poor people south of the border for our personal pleasure is incredibly hypocritical IMHO.

Dave - 1-14-2009 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

The majority of travelers to Baja are tourists. As a tourist, do you base the decision to eat or stay at a particular place based on concern for the owner's well being, or its reputation?

Tourists vote with their dollars. Don't take it personal. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 1-14-2009 at 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare.

There's more to visiting Baja than interacting with the people and many who visit don't come here to equate the well-being of the people with what they have, earned or otherwise. Some come only to see the land and sea. Steinbeck did it, Ricketts did it and so did Gardner. Nobody ever called them selfish or uncaring.
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Not what I was saying Dennis. I brought up the personal level of it only to make folks think a minute about what life really is like for many of these folks they interact with here in Baja. My main point was only that I find it arrogant to think that we can take advantage of all the economic opportunities north of the border but somehow we feel that we have some right to expect those living south of the border to give up their right to those same opportunities, solely because we want to drink a cold Pacifico on a white sandy beach with no development in sight.

I find that hypocritical AND arrogant...

mtgoat666 - 1-14-2009 at 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

But, Americans are hypocritical and arrogant? Aren't we all?

Manifest Destiny!

Yes we can! (behave better)

DianaT - 1-14-2009 at 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.

Yes, that would be a very arrogant attitude, I agree. But I don't think that is what is being said here.

It is about denying or not caring about allowing the people to progress in ways that they see as beneficial. It is about the selfish attitude of wanting to keep things "magical" and or "quaint" when magical and quaint may not be in the best interest of the locals.

In someways, IMHO, it is a matter of priorities of what is important.

Diane

DENNIS - 1-14-2009 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
It is about denying or not caring about allowing the people to progress in ways that they see as beneficial. It is about the selfish attitude of wanting to keep things "magical" and or "quaint" when magical and quaint may not be in the best interest of the locals.

In someways, IMHO, it is a matter of priorities of what is important.

Diane

Thanks, Diane. I see your point but, I don't think we have the power through our thoughts without direct action to influence anything. Our fantasys keep us going and if that entails a wish and desire to keep a bit of the past in the present, it harms nobody. It all will change when it's time comes.
Besides, the preservation of natural treasures is an honored endeavor in the U.S. and should be in Mexico as well. Yellowstone Park is an example. It's done to retain the beauty of the land. On a small scale perhaps, the love of the beauty of Baja can be equal to the consideration given to the Parks up north, even by individuals. It's all good and that's important too.

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 03:08 PM

You are right Dennis - it all comes down to a debate of fantasy as what happens or doesn't happen here will be little affected by what any of us say here.

But we are Nomads after all and God knows we love to say what we think!

:lol:

Bajahowodd - 1-14-2009 at 03:39 PM

Dennis' mention of Americans seeking to raise the standard of living. Americans can be blind and think that only they live correctly. It's more like American's seeking the change others' standard of living. Not enough American actually get out and see the world; and many who go, only look but do not see.

Skipjack Joe - 1-14-2009 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
In many cases, people weren't there before development.

It a twin edged sword... good and bad. People stayed in Baja for the simple life... If they wanted modern living and sevices they moved to the cities or the mainland. The simple life is also what attracts most of Baja's original visitors who wanted to escape 'civilization', for a break.

It is so STRANGE when people come to Baja (because they like it there, the way it is) and then want to CHANGE it!!??? :wow:

How does THAT make any sense... to change it to what you LEFT!?

Sure, it would be cool if Hwy. 1 wasn't built... However, getting to L.A. Bay in 8 hours wouldn't be possible... Really about 6 days or more to reach La Paz unless you were in a race buggy, because to travel 150 miles in one day on the old Baja main road was doing good!

What I see as the biggest blight is the UNFINISHED/ abandoned projects... like Puerto Escondido and The Escalera Nautica disaster at Santa Rosalillita... hoping it never gets stared at L.A. Bay or anywhere else.

That kind of wishful thinking by Mexican politicians HUTRTS Baja... Both tourism, and natural enviroment/ sea shore. It is hard to make pretty once something is paved over... and left to rot.

My family and I used to camp on the shore of Puerto/ Bahia Escondido... along with many others... A great place... It was... Then it was fenced off when the project started... The French (behind the project) pulled out, and the Mexican developer disappeared. No longer can anyone camp on the shore of the bay, go fishing or swimming or kayaking...

Please rant some more DavidK!

This is a side of you I never knew existed and never, ever expected to hear.

God bless Baja Angel and your marriage. She has been a positive influence in your life.

I wholeheartedly support your assessment.

The truth is that all of these baja natives who have 'benefitted' from all this development will eventually become disillusioned after they realize what they've lost. It's undoubtedly happening already. The thought that baja's developers are doing this to raise the standard of living of the local population brings a smile to my face. How naive.

David K - 1-14-2009 at 03:59 PM

I have always had those thoughts... but thank you for the recognition... :biggrin:

Maybe I am a calmer man thanks to Baja Angel...? :yes:

Bajahowodd - 1-14-2009 at 04:01 PM

Got an example of the standard of living issue. Last year we were in Odessa, Ukraine. There's a tremendous amount of restoration going on to their historic buildings. We were at a museum, that had just completed an addition to the building. The addition included new restroom facilities. Brand, spanking new, and even had an attendant. Brand new squat toilets. It's what they are used to in that part of the world. If anyone needs a description, please ask.

Road to Gonzaga

Skipjack Joe - 1-14-2009 at 04:13 PM

In his autobiography Ansel Adams writes about the new road built to Tioga Pass in the 30's. The Army Corps of Engineers decided it had to blast the glacial polish through what is now Olmsted Point to build that road. To a man who grew up loving the Sierras the distant thunder heard in yosemite valley was nervewracking. Anyone who has stopped at Olmsted Point and climb that smooth rock can now sympathize with AA's feelings.

That's how I felt driving the last leg of the San Felipe to Gonzaga road this winter. Knowing, that in the not too distant future Gonzaga will no longer be the place it had been for so long.

What local population is going to benefit from that? Papa Fernandez? Coco's Corner?

DianaT - 1-14-2009 at 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

But we are Nomads after all and God knows we love to say what we think!

:lol:

And read things from our own perspectives, read around what others are saying, say the same things over and over and still not be understood because we all understand our own statements from our own perspective, and in the end, change absolutely no one's opinion about anything.

:lol:

Taking anything seriously would be the real mistake.

[Edited on 1-14-2009 by jdtrotter]

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Dennis' mention of Americans seeking to raise the standard of living. Americans can be blind and think that only they live correctly. It's more like American's seeking the change others' standard of living. Not enough American actually get out and see the world; and many who go, only look but do not see.

I don't recall reading a single post of anyone here seeking to change their standard of living, only recognize and support their right to do so over our opinions as foreigners as to what we "think" should happen here. Nobody here is going to be able to make any significant impact on what happens either way.

You really don't think the folks down here would love to improve their stake? Why do you think so many try to head north? If you don't think the locals would like to have more job opportunities just ask some of them your next trip down...

:rolleyes:

fishbuck - 1-14-2009 at 04:36 PM

Again why do you care if they raise their living standard or not? That is their business and responsibility.
I'm not a dogooder or a malcontent. I'm just a guy trying to live a peaceful life in a beautiful pristine place. If the locals can benefit from me spending money there good for them. If not then that is their problem.
But if they "ruin" the place with a bunch of ugly commercial developement they won't see another of my pesos. So that is their choice to make.
Time will tell what kind of choices they make.

By the way, an article in todays Long Beach Telegram says shipping traffic is down 10% from last year and expected to decline more.

So my bold prediction is that the Colonet Megaport will be "delayed" for quite a long time.

DENNIS - 1-14-2009 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
By the way, an article in todays Long Beach Telegram says shipping traffic is down 10% from last year and expected to decline more.

I don't suppose anybody here would like to comment on how we're ruining the Chinese standard of living.

Paulclark - 1-14-2009 at 05:06 PM

as of this afternoon ---

Mexico port plan on track

Updated January 14, 2009 4:49:33 PM

Bill Mongelluzzo / The JOURNAL of COMMERCE ONLINE

Mexico’s plans to construct a $5-billion container port at Punta Colonet in Baja California are still on track, contrary to reports in the U.S. and Mexican media that the government is considering delaying the project, a developer said.

Ernesto Ruffo Appel, president of Puerto Colonet Infr aestructura SA, said his firm as well as other companies interested in participating in the port and rail development project must secure official registration forms from the Mexican government by Jan. 26 and file by Feb. 4.

Companies later this year will face another deadline to announce their affiliation with a consortium. The various consortia will then compete through a competitive bidding process for the right to construct the port and rail line, Ruffo said.

Punta Colonet, which Mexico views as an alternative Pacific Coast gateway to the United States market for the Asia container trade, has been discussed for years, and developers have staked out claims to the site, about 150 miles south of the U.S. border.

At a press conference Tuesday in Mexico, Luis Tellez, minister of communications and transportation, said that due to the global financial crisis and the difficulty the private sector is encountering raising money, the government is considering delaying the construction process.

Ruffo said the reports interpreted the minister's remarks to mean the Mexican government is postponing the bidding and construction process. “[The government] is not postponing the project,” he said.

In addition to being a private developer, Ruffo is a former governor of Baja California, mayor of Ensenada and federal government representative in the northern border zone.

Many of the Mexican, U.S. and foreign companies that have indicated interest in the project have their own capital or access to guaranteed sources of funding, Ruffo said. The bidding process is legally open, deadlines are set and progress is underway toward the date when official bids from consortia will be solicited, he added.

The massive price tag is only for the container port and 200-mile rail line that will connect with a U.S. carrier at the border. Punta Colonet is an isolated, undeveloped site that will require many billions of dollars in order to construct a city, schools, utilities and other infrastructure needed to support operations.

Two recent developments have cast doubt on the urgency of the project. In addition to the global financial crisis, container volumes at U.S. West Coast ports dropped by almost 10 percent in 2008.

When container volumes were growing at 10 percent a year, terminal operators had projected that Los Angeles-Long Beach would reach capacity around 2012. It now appears that the Southern California port complex as well as other West Coast ports will have sufficient capacity for years to come, and that Pacific Coast ports in Canada will also expand their market share.

Nevertheless, Mexican and international maritime interests are convinced that the existing North American gateways will become congested sometime in the coming decade, opening the door for construction at Punta Colonet.

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 05:07 PM

I agree that the port will be delayed due to the current economic fiasco and whether it is ever built lies heavily on how fast the economy does recover.

Why do I care? I guess that is the difference in our perspectives. I have spent the majority of the last 35 years living and working in Latin America and my interaction with the locals has been very up close and personal, not just passing through as a tourist, ordering a beer and pumping gas. My wife and all of her family are Mexican, we speak only Spanish in our home as well as with 95% of my friends I associate with here.

I care what happens to them and I am trying to figure out why that bothers any of you so much? I think they have every right to seek the same economic opportunities as we did north of the border. If you lived in California you know that most of that came from the coastal areas. That is just a fact of life and while I wish the essence of Baja could forever remain exactly the same it is impossible to imagine how that could really happen. I can only hope that the development that does come can find a way to keep a balance.

I am curious though why so many of you are so concerned about the Colonet area? How many of you have even made the trip out to the point? I have made the 8 km drive from the highway and have never seen signs of any gringo resort getaway or escape. It is primarily just agriculture with tomoates, chiles and some onions as I recall next to a couple of local fishermens pangas. As far as it turning into another Long Beach, you need to know a little more about Long Beach Mike. I owned a testing lab for over 15 years that did a lot of air and water analysis of the Long Beach area. The air problems are from the cars and refinery stacks, not the port. The underground water issues are big but are from the 100+ years of oil production in the area as well as natural oil seepage from the ocean floor. If you live in Long Beach I would never drink the tap water. You will consistently find detectable levels of aromatic solvents (carcinogenic) like Benzene, Xylene and Toluene as well as some other nasty organics that would show up on a mass spec scan but not even cataloged in the current EPA organic test library.

Peace, love and fish tacos...

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 1-15-2009 by BajaGringo]

Don't bother me

Dave - 1-14-2009 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
I care what happens to them and I am trying to figure out why that bothers any of you so much?

Don't think it bothers anyone else. Where did you get that idea?

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 05:35 PM

I guess I am just reading between the lines...

:tumble:

fishbuck - 1-14-2009 at 06:19 PM

Ofcourse I care about the people. I care about all people in the overall scheme of things.
I've even helped out with a little charity stuff and felt very good about it.
But it really isn't up to us to help them. It's up to them to help themselves. The same way it is in the US.

Bajagringo, I have read reports that state the giant carcinogenic air plum that blows off the harbor is from the 100 or so giant ships that pass through the harbor everyday. The ships run very dirty fuel and run 24 hours a day to power the ship in port.
You should be a bit concerned because you will see ships going into Colonet from you house. And they will be at fullspeed when they really pump out alot of exhaust. Plus all the trash that falls off or is thrown overboard will be washing up on your beach.
It's amazing how all this SoCal developement never seems to be able to pay for itself. The cities and counties are continuosly running in the red here. And the infrastucture is crumbling too.
Do you think developement in Mexico will do any better?

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 07:18 PM

I hear you man and I am not trying to push for any of this happen, but what I want here isn't what is most important.

Back when we did analysis for the APCD, the bulk of the air quality issues in the Long Beach area were car and refinery related. We did a few stack tests on some of the ships in the harbor but when you added the mass weight of all their emissions combined back then, it paled in comparison. Maybe since Wal-Mart began building all their factories in China and importing more, things have changed. I haven't seen any of that data since the mid-90's when I was spending more time working on contract for some water projects in Central and South America. That is why I eventually sold out my interest as I was spending very little time back stateside.

I remember reading in previous threads dealing with the illegal immigration issue numerous posts from Nomads that Mexico needs to do more to create jobs for her people back home. Now when Mexico tries to do that very thing all the naysayers come out against it.

I find it to be a very frustrating catch-22 situation and with familiy members of my wife living caught up in the middle of this catch-22, it does become very personal to me.

Sorry if I stepped on any toes...

[Edited on 1-15-2009 by BajaGringo]

805gregg - 1-14-2009 at 07:41 PM

This is good news.

Why?

Dave - 1-14-2009 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
This is good news.

fishbuck - 1-14-2009 at 07:51 PM

I love most of the people I meet in Baja too so it's very difficult not to feel their pain.
I certainly don't know what their answer is. But I do always hope the money I spend there will help people. Really not much else to be done about it.

Not job creation...but more wealth creation for Mexico's oligarchy

Dave - 1-14-2009 at 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
I remember reading in previous threads dealing with the illegal immigration issue numerous posts from Nomads that Mexico needs to do more to create jobs for her people back home. Now when Mexico tries to do that very thing all the naysayers come out against it.

Paulclark quotes:

"The massive price tag is only for the container port and 200-mile rail line that will connect with a U.S. carrier at the border. Punta Colonet is an isolated, undeveloped site that will require many billions of dollars in order to construct a city, schools, utilities and other infrastructure needed to support operations."

This development won't amount to much in the way of permanent jobs. The new megaports are almost totally automated as well as the rail lines that transport the containers. Given Mexico's track record on educating and providing health care for its people the idea that they would spend millions to construct schools, hospitals and other infrastructure is laughable. The port may provide services, but it will be for a select group of their employees.

Thus far, the bulk of jobs Mexico has been creating mirrors the low skilled jobs that illegals find in the States...Only at a much lower pay scale.

BajaGringo - 1-14-2009 at 08:57 PM

Well now that those really "in the know" have cleared things up I guess that issue is settled. I should have just asked you guys...

Packoderm - 1-14-2009 at 09:55 PM

Continually, I hear for us not to worry about these things too much because it is their country. Who is the "them" as in their country. Is it the ordinary folks who have a say in any of these events? They've been dis-empowered from the very beginning. Could you imagine would would happen if townsfolk in any particular town stood up to development that would mainly benefit some distant family's quest of profits and/or vain and provide McJobs for the rest of the people? How would the authorities of Mexico handle what the common people of the coastal town of Bolinas here in the U.S. have done to protect the character of their charming/maybe-not-so-charming hippy hamlet north of San Francisco? I'll tell you what would happen: the soldiers would be sent in to establish order so that progress can proceed to the point where the town's inhabitants could not even keep incandescent light bulbs outdoors due to theft. I'm sure you know what I mean by this. Mark my words, the town of Colonet and even Asuncion could turn into drug towns if development occurs to the point where outside construction workers are deemed necessary. They just don't have the protection factor of a Fonatur town. This sort of thing hasn't been fun to watch, and I wouldn't wish it upon anybody - regardless of which country. Also, you know that Americans have first hand knowledge of the effects of gentrification...

Bajahowodd - 1-14-2009 at 11:31 PM

This thread appears to be growing weirdly nasty. Here's the truth. Mexico is a soverign nation. Too many of us view the country by our contacts with waiters and Pemex pump jockeys. Mexico has a political infrastructure that includes people educated in the finest universities of the world. Calderon is Ivy league. Whatever we feel about an affinity to Baja, we must respect the fact that Mexico is a soverign nation, and will hopefully do what is best for its citizens.

Packoderm - 1-15-2009 at 12:07 AM

Bajahowodd, I definitely take that to heart as far as my actions in Mexico go. I, however, do not feel compelled to suppress my views on a free, conversational forum. Words of that come from the heart hurt nobody.

Bajahowodd - 1-15-2009 at 12:18 AM

Amen. A free and open conversation is necesary. I love Mexico and its people. I spend almost all of my free time visiting Mexico.

David K - 1-15-2009 at 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
In his autobiography Ansel Adams writes about the new road built to Tioga Pass in the 30's. The Army Corps of Engineers decided it had to blast the glacial polish through what is now Olmsted Point to build that road. To a man who grew up loving the Sierras the distant thunder heard in yosemite valley was nervewracking. Anyone who has stopped at Olmsted Point and climb that smooth rock can now sympathize with AA's feelings.

That's how I felt driving the last leg of the San Felipe to Gonzaga road this winter. Knowing, that in the not too distant future Gonzaga will no longer be the place it had been for so long.

What local population is going to benefit from that? Papa Fernandez? Coco's Corner?

No local population exists except for a very few... mostly it is gringos... and they like the isolation...

If you walk into Rancho Grande's store and look above the counter you will see the proposed resort hotel... This is Rodriguez property (Los Pinos tomato fortune). A highway would benefit him and other land owners seeking development fortunes.

Also, a gulf coast highway would be a great mileage savings for those in Mainland Mexico and Mexicali/ San Felipe wanting to drive down the peninsula on pavement.

[Edited on 1-15-2009 by David K]

DianaT - 1-15-2009 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs---building, working in the hotel, etc. No, not great paying jobs, but they are jobs for workers who will become locals.

Also, the highway might increase and make commerce from the Mainland easier----

IMHO, It is really a shame that some people get stuck in the past and think only about how change affects them. You have a choice, don't go if you don't like the change.

My grandparents, and my parents often lived in the world of "I remember when.....". I have been there myself, but it often can be a place to sit and rot while lamenting the loss of the past, and forget to move into the future.

Every time I haved talked with one of the gringo locals there, Then say that the change will never happen---the road will never happen. Perhaps they are correct, or perhaps they are living in a world of denial.

Diane

[Edited on 1-15-2009 by jdtrotter]

Skipjack Joe - 1-15-2009 at 12:40 PM

There is good change and there is bad change. Baja has had a lot of the bad kind recently. Short sighted projects that marred the landscape and little else. Those who don't have a past in baja have nothing to compare it to. Their baseline is when they appear on the scene.

Look at this colonet project. It appears to be based upon the idea that when the US ports are at capacity we will use the one in baja. Mexican dependence on US economy and usage. Dredging and railways laid for a 'vision'. What happens if the US solves it's needs in some other way. Will the land be restored?

Can the cement walls at Escondido be removed to reclaim the old beach? Who benefitted from this destruction - the guard sitting at the parking lot collecting fees? Was that worth the destruction? Why couldn't the existing facilities in Loreto be used?

Basically, you had a garden of eden here. To watch it's slow demise and have people tell me about it's inevitability and how it was necessary for the good of the people. I just don't buy it. It's short sighted. Yes, some shop owner benefitted from something somewhere. But the price for this thoughtless, unrestricted development is monumental. Mexico is plundering it's resources shamelessly with no thought of tomorrow.

I have to admit that I really don't like to hear the argument that development is 'inevitable'. It's not an argument at all. It's just a statement saying here is how it is and don't bother talking about it any more because 'it just is'. Instead of considering the requirements and proposals of how to meet them, the door is shut without even opening it with the word: 'inevitable'. As though there is some major principle involved here.

David K - 1-15-2009 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
There is good change and there is bad change. Baja has had a lot of the bad kind recently. Short sighted projects that marred the landscape and little else. Those who don't have a past in baja have nothing to compare it to. Their baseline is when they appear on the scene.

Look at this colonet project. It appears to be based upon the idea that when the US ports are at capacity we will use the one in baja. Mexican dependence on US economy and usage. Dredging and railways laid for a 'vision'. What happens if the US solves it's needs in some other way. Will the land be restored?

Can the cement walls at Escondido be removed to reclaim the old beach? Who benefitted from this destruction - the guard sitting at the parking lot collecting fees? Was that worth the destruction? Why couldn't the existing facilities in Loreto be used?

Basically, you had a garden of eden here. To watch it's slow demise and have people tell me about it's inevitability and how it was necessary for the good of the people. I just don't buy it. It's short sighted. Yes, some shop owner benefitted from something somewhere. But the price for this thoughtless, unrestricted development is monumental. Mexico is plundering it's resources shamelessly with no thought of tomorrow.

I have to admit that I really don't like to hear the argument that development is 'inevitable'. It's not an argument at all. It's just a statement saying here is how it is and don't bother talking about it any more because 'it just is'. Instead of considering the requirements and proposals of how to meet them, the door is shut without even opening it with the word: 'inevitable'. As though there is some major principle involved here.

Wow, a gem of a statement... one that deserves to be framed. Thanks for it!

Sharksbaja - 1-15-2009 at 01:34 PM

Quote:

Mexico is plundering it's resources shamelessly with no thought of tomorrow.

With plenty of help from outside.

DianaT - 1-15-2009 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Yes, John in the 1950's used to camp and fish on the beach in San Felipe and loved the way it was. We don't go there anymore because we think it is ugly----He also loved the really old road into Gonzaga and was disappointed when it changed. We still go there

I loved Ensenada when I first saw it-- a rather small quaint town with all the storefront chicken places--we don't stop there anymore----on and on.

I would also love to see the high desert of southern California the way it was 40 years ago, or the the pristine area of the San Diego north county back again----on and on

That is the point, if you don't like the change, don't go. Sure some of the development is really ugly and has been a disaster, but that happens everywhere. Some of the development has improved the lives of many.

No, development is not inevitable, but change is and it really is a choice of whether one wants to stay stuck in the past or work for and accept change.

We would love Bahia Asuncion not to change, but it is and it will, and some of it will economically help the locals. I really think living there part time does make a difference in how one sees things.

Sorry, but I still think that several of the opinions expressed are very self-serving and selfish.

Diane

I will not stay out of this thread as it is obvious that certain attitudes are well entrenched----mine included. Bottom line, is it is Mexico and it is up to them as to how things will be done, and if we don't like it, we have the choice of not being there.

[Edited on 1-15-2009 by jdtrotter]

wilderone - 1-16-2009 at 09:33 AM

Yeah - what Skipjack said - applause, applause

RE: ".. the proposed resort hotel... This is Rodriguez property (Los Pinos tomato fortune). A highway would benefit him and other land owners seeking development fortunes."

Not very well thought out. This would require that everyone drive to this locale. Not going to happen. After 50 years, look at San Felipe - it's grown at a pace commensurate with reasonable demand and it's still a small-scale town. How would you get to Gonzaga to an all-inclusive (has to be) destination resort for a week - they'll figure it out and ask themselves, "is it worth it? We can get that in Cabo (La Paz, Loreto, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan) and save the $200+ in extra transportation." This is a place for experienced Baja travelers who live in the states that make it a relatively uncomplicated drive.

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 12:40 PM

Don't know how many of you have been to Puerto Penasco lately. I always kind of considered that and San Felipe to be mirrors of each other, as they sit opposite on the Sea of Cortez. Well, the powers that be in PP went in another direction. There are high-rise condos, and, a Mayan Palace time share!

BajaGringo - 1-16-2009 at 12:43 PM

A lot of PP has been developed with interests out of Phoenix as they see it as a market for their region. San Felipe has, well... Calexico!

:lol:

Sorry to all my Calexico/SF friends, I couldn't resist...

Totally unfair

Dave - 1-16-2009 at 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

Mexico is plundering it's resources shamelessly with no thought of tomorrow.

With plenty of help from outside.

Mexico alone decides how to use or abuse its resources.

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 01:29 PM

Gee. I thought the target market for PP was Nogales!