BajaNomad

Turtle Tacos

Marla Daily - 1-23-2009 at 04:44 PM

A philosophical question— the answer based on personal boundaries (and prompted by the eating burro thread):

Would you, a guest or foreign resident in Mexico, join in on a local fisherman's turtle feast at a fish camp? Why or why not?

It is estimated as many as 35,000 green, loggerhead, leatherback and olive ridley turtles are consumed in the region every year; eating sea turtle has been against the law in Mexico since 1990.

Bajaboy - 1-23-2009 at 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Daily
A philosophical question— the answer based on personal boundaries (and prompted by the eating burro thread):

Would you, a guest or foreign resident in Mexico, join in on a local fisherman's turtle feast at a fish camp? Why or why not?

It is estimated as many as 35,000 green, loggerhead, leatherback and olive ridley turtles are consumed in the region every year; eating sea turtle has been against the law in Mexico since 1990.


Please don't open this can of worms. Speeding and smoking pot are against the law in the US and I'm sure plenty are guilty here. If you're trying to make a point, just do so. This has been played out a few times before.

zac

ps. And yes I've joined in before.

FOR THOSE WHO CAPTURE TORTURE AND KILL TURTLES!

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-23-2009 at 05:19 PM



[Edited on 1-24-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

woody with a view - 1-23-2009 at 05:24 PM

in '85 we were just discovering the finer points and beach breaks of oaxaca. in a small town i found a market selling turtle lotion. i thought it would be cool, if not novel, since NO ONE i knew had been this far south, and i'm sure never heard of turtle lotion before. long/short i bought the biggest bottle they had and it was just like every other skin lotion i've ever used.

as for inhaling? depends on what your definition of "is" is!!!

speeding? like a tweeker!!!:lol:

edit:the finer things....

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by woody in ob]

puerto esco 87.jpg - 49kB

Natalie Ann - 1-23-2009 at 06:05 PM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=31989&pag...

nena

KurtG - 1-23-2009 at 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Daily
A philosophical question— the answer based on personal boundaries (and prompted by the eating burro thread):

Would you, a guest or foreign resident in Mexico, join in on a local fisherman's turtle feast at a fish camp? Why or why not?

It is estimated as many as 35,000 green, loggerhead, leatherback and olive ridley turtles are consumed in the region every year; eating sea turtle has been against the law in Mexico since 1990.


Bruce Berger in his book "Almost an Island" (one of my favorite Baja books) has a chapter entitled "Earth Day with the Governor" which among other things describes being served turtle soup while dining with a small group including the governor of BCS on Earth Day. A good read!

Russ - 1-23-2009 at 06:14 PM

ELINVESTI8 I saw that coming!!!!

Paula - 1-23-2009 at 06:33 PM

We've been invited for turtle by a rather prominent neighbor. As luck would have it we were busy, and couldn't partake:biggrin:

DENNIS - 1-23-2009 at 07:16 PM

In the sixties, San Felipe, We stayed in a campground on the water. There were fishermen in the area and they had picked up a big-ass turtle which they brought back to camp and had it propped up in a galvanized tub, upsidedown and head back at 45 degrees, very much alive.
They thought it fun to try to pour beer into the distressed animals nostrils, making loud points that the water-tightening plug would come forthe in the nostril to block the drowning entrance of fluid.

It sickened me. It was cruel torture. After all these years, I hurt for that animal and hate the humanity that was responsible for its painful demise, all for food.
Am I missing something here? Is there justification for this?

DENNIS - 1-23-2009 at 08:05 PM

Yes, Frank? The sordid desire for entertainment was just cause to torture a noble, captive animal?
Local custom trumps the existance of animal rights and decency?
You, of all people, know better.

DENNIS - 1-23-2009 at 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
I did not see anything in that post about torture, did you?
Where is your outrage at Mexicans that let their cattle die of thirst, or don't do decent prenatal care, or let their dogs wander onto the highway?
It ain't my fookin' country, brother.
So, I am on a local's beach and they offer me food..... I'm gonna say no?
Right.
Saludos



Yes...you should. I have outrage for all of this, Frank, my country or not. If I were on a beach, or anywhere, I would refuse to eat the flesh of anything I saw tortured. That includes fish. Catch 'em and kill 'em but, don't torture'em.
My reference is to my post which preceded yours.

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 1-23-2009 at 08:32 PM

Thanks.

The torture reference was mine although on line with the turtle reference. I've just never had the oportunity to be publicly outraged about it. Sorry you got in the way.

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by DENNIS]

elizabeth - 1-23-2009 at 09:20 PM

I would not participate in a turtle feed. I won't eat turtle, but then I don't eat pandas either; threatened and endangered species are not high on my list of things to eat...hey, I won't eat shark fin soup, I don't even eat most shrimp (one of my favorite foods) because of the by-catch and the death of turtles in the nets...I try for trap caught prawns and diver caught scallops.

But...as an omnivore who eats beef and cute little piggies and fluffy little lambs, I don't think I have the moral authority to tell people they shouldn't eat domestic animals that I think are more pet like...such as cute little bunnies, or even burros or dogs no matter how repugnant I find it to be...that's my cultural bias.

I do think I can object to turtle feeds no matter where I am...turtles are the responsibility of all of us, they know no national boundaries.

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 01:00 AM

If you condone the killing of these wild animals by anyone for anything short of starvation you need your own head examined.

Culture just don't cut it no mo. Now if you want to take three or four hundred to cut up and sell under the auspices of promoting science.....no problem! The Japanese do it every year with Minke Whales :fire:

The biggest offenders now in Mexico are the turtle egg robbers on the mainland.

Heck it's free wildlife for the taking. Who will miss it? Surely not the greedy people. What's a few million tons of wasted shark or bear or rhino or walrus or...or....or..... Patagonian Toothfish!!



Dennis, thank you for being educated and vocal.

DENNIS - 1-24-2009 at 07:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
What's a few million tons of wasted shark



The custom/method of "Finning" shark, catching and cutting off the dorsal fin, then dumping the animal back into the sea alive, is blood-thirsty cruel. All this so a man in China can have a bowl of soup. This is an industry in Mexico...big in the Gulf. I've seem mountains of desicated fins in a warehouse in Santa Rosalia awaiting shipping.
Sharkfin Soup. Very expensive, so they say. What kind of person wouldn't consider the expense paid by the donor of this "delicasy.":fire::fire::fire:

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-24-2009 at 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Russ
ELINVESTI8 I saw that coming!!!!


Russ, Crazy-Cat could not resist coming out to take care of business. He was so peeed he forgot his vigilante mask.



I hope no one saw him without it. :lol:

Oso - 1-24-2009 at 09:25 AM

I hunt and I'm usually not too bothered by the process of killing, gutting, skinning animals to eat. But the common means of handling large sea turtles in Mexico is something that has always bothered me. It IS torture and somewhat akin to crucificion. In the early 60's in Zihuatanejo and on Cozumel, turtle was more commonly consumed than beef. When captured, the first thing that is done to keep the turtle from flopping around is to cut holes in the flippers and "sew" them together with a piece of sisal rope. They are kept alive on their backs until ready for consumption and then their throats are slit. But, unlike mammals, turtles don't die right away. Even decapitated or nearly so, turtles take several hours, even a couple of days to die.
I'll pass.

DENNIS - 1-24-2009 at 09:27 AM

At what point does outrage turn to action?

mtgoat666 - 1-24-2009 at 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Daily
A philosophical question— the answer based on personal boundaries (and prompted by the eating burro thread):

Would you, a guest or foreign resident in Mexico, join in on a local fisherman's turtle feast at a fish camp? Why or why not?

It is estimated as many as 35,000 green, loggerhead, leatherback and olive ridley turtles are consumed in the region every year; eating sea turtle has been against the law in Mexico since 1990.


Dumb question, proving there is such a trhing as a stupid question.
Don't do anything to partake in or encourage destruction of endangered species.
Period.

Put another way, do you join in burglaries and murders because you don't want to offend your burglarizing and murdering hosts?

David K - 1-24-2009 at 09:42 AM

What would Charles Darwin have to say about this? Isn't the 'natural order' for the weaker to be consumed by the stronger? Yes, but we do have a choice as humans. Darwinism or evolution may not be right.

Seems that there should be more than survival involved here... Do we or can we enjoy turtles more by observing them in nature, than by eating them?

I hope so... there is so much we can eat and enjoy, that avoiding the turtles shouldn't be too traumatic!

Now, if their population were to rebound and the Sea of Cortez was once again so full of turtles that one could walk across it on their backs (as was once written)... then the delicacy could be enjoyed, once more... que no?

DENNIS - 1-24-2009 at 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Seems that there should be more than survival involved here... Do we or can we enjoy turtles more by observing them in nature, than by eating them?



Good points, David. The food-chain goes on, for sure. I'm more concerned with the methods of capture, the lack of respect for a species, the over-the-top brutality involved in bringing these animals to market. The animals don't need to suffer just because they bring a good price.

bajabeachbabe - 1-24-2009 at 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Daily
A philosophical question— the answer based on personal boundaries (and prompted by the eating burro thread):

Would you, a guest or foreign resident in Mexico, join in on a local fisherman's turtle feast at a fish camp? Why or why not?

It is estimated as many as 35,000 green, loggerhead, leatherback and olive ridley turtles are consumed in the region every year; eating sea turtle has been against the law in Mexico since 1990.


So, the philosophical question really is would you not eat the turtle because:
a. it is against the law
b. it is an endangered species or
c. the thought of eating turtle disgusts you

This question reminded me of last year when I was in Grand Cayman where they have a turtle farm. Originally it started as a commercial operation to raise turtles for consumption by the local population for whom turtle was a traditional food. The commercial operation failed and today the turtle farm is a tourist site where they raise all species of sea turtles. People can get up close to the turtles as well as snorkeling in a pool with them. They do release about 20-30% to the wild each year, but they also serve turtle on the menu in their restaurant. I admit that while I was there I
a. held a turtle
b. snorkeled with the turtles and
c. had turtle stew in the restaurant

I certainly had mixed feeling about item c. And, having now eaten turtle stew I know that I won't have it again because it was greasy and I didn't like it.

So in answer to Marla's question, I wouldn't partake for all three reasons. But, the bottom line is: eating an endangered species from the wild is wrong whether it is legal or not.

Bahia de los Angeles, 1-05

David K - 1-24-2009 at 10:29 AM

Baja Angel's first trip with me... the turtle station was a hit!





ELINVESTIG8R - 1-24-2009 at 11:24 AM



[Edited on 1-25-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

Bajaboy - 1-24-2009 at 12:22 PM

Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac

David K - 1-24-2009 at 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac


Oh boy Zac... are you feeling feisty?:lol:

WHO determins IF a project (road, house, etc.) would endanger a species?

Do animals have 'rights' that outweigh man's needs?

Who determins that?

Who determins if a species is indeed endangered or not?

(of course I know that 'government' ie. courts bowing to animal rights lobbyists and enviromental groups does... BUT, who is certain if that is a decision based on science or emotion?)

No matter what we do or try to do... Nature bats last!:light: Our time on this planet as well as ALL animal species is NOT guaranteed, afterall!;)

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

(of course I know that 'government' ie. courts bowing to animal rights lobbyists and enviromental groups does... BUT, who is certain if that is a decision based on science or emotion?)


There ya go again. So protecting animals is just to placate the liberal environmentalists. Does that infer conservatives don't give a ratsass or sense emotion or accept the consensus of scientists? That I believe:rolleyes:

David K - 1-24-2009 at 12:56 PM

I didn't say anything other than what has happened before... No need to throw gas on a fire Corky. I love animals... many taste good too. No species should be hunted to extiction... good management as practived by some fishing co-ops (like Abreojos and Asuncion) is doing great so that we can continue to eat lobster and abalone for years to come. Too bad the turtle hunting happened before these 'farm' management practices began.

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 12:59 PM

David, when you seed a thread like this with American(your) politics, it's YOU who are stoking the fire, not me.

elizabeth - 1-24-2009 at 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac


I fail to understand what you think is hypocritical about this thread.

I personally would support whatever I thought was necessary to protect any threatened or endangered species...but let's talk about turtles since that's what the thread is mostly about. If there was construction of any sort that impinged upon a turtle nesting area, I would tend to oppose it or find mitigating measures. If someone else felt differently, I would not consider him/her a hypocrite because the didn't eat turtles, but were ok about the construction. I would probably try to convince them otherwise, but in the end, they have just made a decision on a risk/benefit analysis that is different then mine.

Decisions on the protection of threatened and endanged species are not always black and white...decisions are made on a continuum...and it seems to me that deciding not to eat and/or protest slaughter of an endangered species is a pretty good start toward protection.

(Edited to fix my grammatical errors before someone else found them!)

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by elizabeth]

DianaT - 1-24-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
What would Charles Darwin have to say about this? Isn't the 'natural order' for the weaker to be consumed by the stronger? Yes, but we do have a choice as humans. Darwinism or evolution may not be right.


Words of wisdom from Professor Limbaugh---the usual oversimplified twisted version of an important concept.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

(of course I know that 'government' ie. courts bowing to animal rights lobbyists and enviromental groups does... BUT, who is certain if that is a decision based on science or emotion?)


And, once again, you do wear your politics on your sleeve and cannot keep them out of a thread.

Some of your comments could be taken more seriously if you would leave your politics in off-topic where they belong.

You, as do others, have a right to your personal opinions, but
Darwin, and US politics have anything to do with this topic.

Diane

DianaT - 1-24-2009 at 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac


I fail to understand what you think is hypocritical about this thread.

I personally would support whatever I thought was necessary to protect any threatened or endangered species...but let's talk about turtles since that's what the thread is mostly about. If there was construction of any sort that impinged upon a turtle nesting area, I would tend to oppose it or find mitigating measures. If someone else felt differently, I would not consider him/her a hypocrite because the didn't eat turtles, but were ok about the construction. I would probably try to convince them otherwise, but in the end, they have just made a decision on a risk/benefit analysis that is different then mine.

Decisions on the protection of threatened and endanged species are not always black and white...decisions are made on a continuum...and it seems to me that deciding not to eat and/or protest slaughter of an endangered species is a pretty good start toward protection.

(Edited to fix my grammatical errors before someone else found them!)

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by elizabeth]


VERY WELL stated, especially the last part. Thank you

Diane

woody with a view - 1-24-2009 at 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac


this is funny...sorta. we are on stand by as a multi million dollar construction job at camp pendleton is temporarily shut down. all because of an endangered......bird? nope. lizard? nope mouse? nope. insect? nope

an endangered weed...... will it ever end?

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 01:38 PM

SAVE THE WEEDS & SAVE CALIFORNIA!:lol:

DianaT - 1-24-2009 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
Next level


Ah, but then we might have consistency.


Quote:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds., Ralph Waldo Emerson

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 02:43 PM

If you paint with a big enuff brush we are all hypocrits in one respect or another.:no:

OK, let's just stick to the subject of declining sea turtles.

Bajaboy - 1-24-2009 at 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Okay, so it sounds like the majority here won't eat turtle. But what about other endangered species...let's take it one step farther...would you condone building a road or a house in an area that would further threaten a species extinction? How far are you willing to go to protect ALL endangered animals and plants? Or are you primarily concerned with turtles? I find this topic interesting and a bit hypocritical.

I am only playing devil's advocate here....I know where I stand.


zac


I fail to understand what you think is hypocritical about this thread.

I personally would support whatever I thought was necessary to protect any threatened or endangered species...but let's talk about turtles since that's what the thread is mostly about. If there was construction of any sort that impinged upon a turtle nesting area, I would tend to oppose it or find mitigating measures. If someone else felt differently, I would not consider him/her a hypocrite because the didn't eat turtles, but were ok about the construction. I would probably try to convince them otherwise, but in the end, they have just made a decision on a risk/benefit analysis that is different then mine.

Decisions on the protection of threatened and endanged species are not always black and white...decisions are made on a continuum...and it seems to me that deciding not to eat and/or protest slaughter of an endangered species is a pretty good start toward protection.

(Edited to fix my grammatical errors before someone else found them!)

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by elizabeth]


Hi Elizabeth-

I am not pointing fingers at anyone but certain "causes" seem more popular than others with regards to protecting certain animals. For example, should we not allow beach front homes to exist on the coast? Here is a story regarding the decimation of sea turtles on the coast of Florida: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=floridas_sea_tur...

Again, I know where I stand with this issue. And I agree with you....I don't think it's as black and white of an issue as some people make it out to be.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm primarily playing devil's advocate.

Zac

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by Bajaboy]

David K - 1-24-2009 at 03:54 PM

Baja Boy asked for some dialog... so I gave an opinion based on real situations... 'let's talk about it' (was the idea)...

Oh no... can't have open speech with Liberals ready to brow beat any opposition to the (sometimes) 'wacko' world of enviromentalism... Only words from like-minded liberals are allowed here to go unopposed with facts and common sense...??? Who brings up Rush...? Not me... I don't need a radio personality for common sense.

You know what's funny Corky and Diane? I was in favor of 'saving' the turtles... but that fact slipped right by because it was more important for you both to take issue with my question FOR ZAC... I guess in this new era, there will be no need for a First Amendment because nobody will feel free enough to speak fearing the wrath of the Left! Did I say anything that wasn't true that needed any of you to call attention to?

Geeze Louise (Luis)!:rolleyes:

DianaT - 1-24-2009 at 04:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Baja Boy asked for some dialog... so I gave an opinion based on real situations... 'let's talk about it' (was the idea)...

Oh no... can't have open speech with Liberals ready to brow beat any opposition to the (sometimes) 'wacko' world of enviromentalism... Only words from like-minded liberals are allowed here to go unopposed with facts and common sense...??? Who brings up Rush...? Not me... I don't need a radio personality for common sense.

You know what's funny Corky and Diane? I was in favor of 'saving' the turtles... but that fact slipped right by because it was more important for you both to take issue with my question FOR ZAC... I guess in this new era, there will be no need for a First Amendment because nobody will feel free enough to speak fearing the wrath of the Left! Did I say anything that wasn't true that needed any of you to call attention to?

Geeze Louise (Luis)!:rolleyes:



:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Needed a good laugh today.

Bajahowodd - 1-24-2009 at 04:56 PM

This thread has been all over the place. Including a so-called unsavory way the turtles were slaughtered. You can go all around the world and find customs and practices that are offensive to our Western culture. Question is who has the right to demand changes in such practices? So, Sea Turtles are on the endangered list and Mexico recognized this. A much earlier post mentioned the cayman Island attempt to farm turtles. I, in fact, ate a turtle burger on Grand Cayman years ago. I really don't know why the commercial venture failed. god knows, we have all sorts of farmed food. Perhaps The Mexican government could divert some of it's tourist related development budget to trying to develop a sustaining turtle program providing meat and turtles released to the wild.

Don Alley - 1-24-2009 at 05:39 PM

Recently a turtle laid its eggs on Loreto's Municipal Beach. A temporary fence was set up, and the newly hatched turtles saved for an evening release, to protect them from the birds. A large crowd gathered for the release. Yes, it was Mexico recognizing the value and importance of saving the turtles on the shores of their National Marine Park.

Meanwhile, the wealthy and powerful still eat turtle. And as for protecting their nesting sites, forget about it. All the mainland beaches are slated for private development. Somehow, Mexico cannot protect any beaches; in fact, one public beach with a developed parking area and public palapas has been turned over to a development. And of course there are the endless gauntlets of gillnets, and even the token regulations on those nets is ignored.

No, I don't eat sea turtle. I don't see a particular problem with the eating of animals, but I do have a problem with an unregulated slaughter of whole populations as hypocritical government officials pass meaningless laws and fart meaningless platitudes and proclamations over their bowls of turtle soup.

A couple of days ago we got skunked on a fishing trip. That's fishing. But we saw a shark finning along the surface. Imagine that! Don't see too many of those in the Sea of Cortez.

"So, would you like soup with your dinner? Our soups today are turtle soup, or shark fin soup.":rolleyes:

mtgoat666 - 1-24-2009 at 07:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Baja Boy asked for some dialog... so I gave an opinion based on real situations... 'let's talk about it' (was the idea)...

Oh no... can't have open speech with Liberals ready to brow beat any opposition to the (sometimes) 'wacko' world of enviromentalism... Only words from like-minded liberals are allowed here to go unopposed with facts and common sense...??? Who brings up Rush...? Not me... I don't need a radio personality for common sense.

You know what's funny Corky and Diane? I was in favor of 'saving' the turtles... but that fact slipped right by because it was more important for you both to take issue with my question FOR ZAC... I guess in this new era, there will be no need for a First Amendment because nobody will feel free enough to speak fearing the wrath of the Left! Did I say anything that wasn't true that needed any of you to call attention to?

Geeze Louise (Luis)!:rolleyes:


dk, we can always count on you countering the arguments of environmentalists by stating that whackos are attacking you and trampling on your free speech rights. not sure how you get the impression that you are being muzzled and gitmo'd, as your post count still shows you to be lead bloviator. you may be able to get some medicine to treat your martyr complex, probably cheaper to buy in mex pharmacies,...

Sharksbaja - 1-24-2009 at 08:38 PM

David, how do you do this. You can't argue a point even if it's a parallel agreeing consensus if you paint political targets on stuff.

It's good we agree that turtles are worth saving. You are for that right?

Now, as far as labeling anythang liberal that has environmental concern at the heart of the issue. You do that w/o flinching but I must remind you that there are many conservatives who think the World is round too.:lol:

You don't honestly think all environmental issues and legislation is done by liberals do you.:wow:

Besides, all Zac did was bait the trap. You took it and went political with it.

David K - 1-25-2009 at 10:15 AM

I was addressing Zac... and I agree that turtles should be removed from everyone's menu until their population returns... and maybe beyond?

The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat? Other animals eat endangered species because it is a NATURAL thing to do... The endangered species are that for a reason... perhaps man is the reason, but isn't man a natural part of this planet, too?

I say save the turtles so they don't become extinct BECAUSE they taste so good, and we don't want to loose such a yummy treat God has provided us.

Seriously, I do not remember what turtle tastes like or if I even had it when we stayed at Casa Diaz in 1967... I do know that was Cruz Diaz' specialty there and pilots would drop in if they heard that turtle was the special of the day at Bahia de los Angeles!

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat?


If someone came by my house and said he wanted to eat my dog, or any dog that I would be aware of, I would illustrate that right, in short order.

David K - 1-25-2009 at 11:20 AM

But, if your house was in Vietnam... then what???:rolleyes:

David K - 1-25-2009 at 11:26 AM

Anyway... what do dogs have to do with turtles or endangered species?

norte - 1-25-2009 at 11:33 AM

I don't get it. Are you proposing we have no laws? or only those that you agree with.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K

The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat? Other animals eat endangered species because it is a NATURAL thing to do... The endangered species are that for a reason... perhaps man is the reason, but isn't man a natural part of this planet, too?
!

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
But, if your house was in Vietnam... then what???:rolleyes:


Then, I'd have Claymores in my front yard.

David K - 1-25-2009 at 06:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
I don't get it. Are you proposing we have no laws? or only those that you agree with.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat? Other animals eat endangered species because it is a NATURAL thing to do... The endangered species are that for a reason... perhaps man is the reason, but isn't man a natural part of this planet, too?
!


Eating laws? Does that make sense... unless you are speaking of religion? Orthodox folks don't eat pork or shellfish... something about Saturday being Holy, too.

David K - 1-25-2009 at 06:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
But, if your house was in Vietnam... then what???:rolleyes:


Then, I'd have Claymores in my front yard.


Might need them in Mexico too..?. Let's hope not!:light:

DianaT - 1-25-2009 at 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by norte
I don't get it. Are you proposing we have no laws? or only those that you agree with.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat? Other animals eat endangered species because it is a NATURAL thing to do... The endangered species are that for a reason... perhaps man is the reason, but isn't man a natural part of this planet, too?
!


Eating laws? Does that make sense... unless you are speaking of religion? Orthodox folks don't eat pork or shellfish... something about Saturday being Holy, too.


So following this logic, one might assume that you agree that eating other human beings is cultural and just a part of nature that should not be regulated?? There certainly is no shortage of the human being animals and it is a practice that has occured in many parts of the world.

And in modern times, it has saved the lives of some, so maybe we should all try it---might be tasty.

[Edited on 1-26-2009 by jdtrotter]

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 06:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Anyway... what do dogs have to do with turtles or endangered species?



Things you don't eat, for any number of reasons.

What's with you, David? Are you the self-apointed arbiter of right and wrong here?
Can you answer that without telling us where you and your parents were in November, '67?

Things have changed everywhere. They have new criteria for evaluation.

The turtles are being slaughtered. Everybody here knows that, including you. Why do you keep up with your slimey references to flavor and taste of the endangered species?

Your arrogance has finally made me sick.

Sharksbaja - 1-25-2009 at 06:43 PM

Arrogance? Is that what it is? I thought it was something more "Worldly":lol:

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-25-2009 at 06:49 PM



PERIOD!!!!

norte - 1-25-2009 at 06:52 PM

Yea, you are right. Here have a peanut butter sandwich... and some peanut butter cookies while your at it.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by norte
I don't get it. Are you proposing we have no laws? or only those that you agree with.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

The point I was making is what right does some men have to tell others what they can eat? Other animals eat endangered species because it is a NATURAL thing to do... The endangered species are that for a reason... perhaps man is the reason, but isn't man a natural part of this planet, too?
!


Eating laws? Does that make sense... unless you are speaking of religion? Orthodox folks don't eat pork or shellfish... something about Saturday being Holy, too.

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTI8


PERIOD!!!!



Good one, David.

How do you do all this stuff anyway? Very creative.....

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Yea, you are right. Here have a peanut butter sandwich... and some peanut butter cookies while your at it.




Norte....You're being a pest. Knock it off.

Timo1 - 1-25-2009 at 07:00 PM

HELL!!!
I ate a donkey
why not a turtle burger

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-25-2009 at 07:01 PM

Dennis this is the web site I use to make free flaming fonts.

http://www.flamingtext.com/fonts/

I don't

Dave - 1-25-2009 at 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
The turtles are being slaughtered. Everybody here knows that, including you.


Not trying to be cute but I really don't know much about the plight of turtles. How is it they are being slaughtered and why? Are there that many Mexicans eating turtle? I don't see it on a menu, anywhere. Every time I see video of turtles there are thousands of the little creatures running across the sand to the water.

Never had turtle. Doesn't sound appetizing. Guess it must be a secret.

DENNIS - 1-25-2009 at 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Not trying to be cute


Don't worry.

Edited to show one of those insipid laughing faces to indicate humor. It didn't cooperate.

[Edited on 1-26-2009 by DENNIS]

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-25-2009 at 07:19 PM





Run for the hills!:lol:

Primer for Dave

Sharksbaja - 1-26-2009 at 12:37 AM

The following article was submitted by Baja Nomad "Oxxo"

Yes, the sea turtles are out in force on Baja beaches this time of year. To clear up the question above, the Spanish word 'tortuga' refers to either land or sea turtles. "Caguama" is the Spanish name for a particular species of sea turtle called the "Loggerhead" in English. In the Baja, the Loggerhead resides primarily in the upper SOC where it dines on its favorite food, Jellyfish.

There are a total of 7 species of sea turtles world wide. All 7 species are considered endangered. As recently as 30 years ago, as many as 1 million sea turtles were harvested in Mexico each year for commercial purposes. Today, they are a protected marine animal in Mexico. However, poaching is still a continuing problem. 4 of the 7 species are found in the Baja. They are (with the Spanish names):
Olive Ridley (golfina)
Loggerhead (caguama or perico)
Leatherback (laud or baula)
Green (verde or blanca)

The Olive Ridley is the smallest of all the species and the one that is most common in the Baja. The pictures in the post above are of an Olive Ridley sea turtle.

In the Los Cabos area, Grupo Tortuguera has designated three sites as official sea turtle hatchling sites. They are:
San Jose - Presidente Resort
Corridor - Casa del Mar Resort
San Lucas - Pueblo Bonito Sunset Resort
Eggs are collected from the area and taken to the nearest hatchling site. If you see a nesting turtle or run across a nesting site in the Los Cabos area, please notify one of the resorts above and they will come and collect the eggs and re-bury them at their protected site. Do not disturb the nest. The resorts have trained personnel who know how to move the eggs properly. The survival rate to maturity of a sea turtle varies between 1% to 25% depending on circumstances and location. We hope that the Hatchling Program in Los Cabos can achieve close to a 25% survival rate.

Here are some points of interest about sea turtles. The information will vary somewhat from species to species.
- Nesting season is from June1 to December 31
- A female can lay as many as 100 eggs in a nest
- Incubation period is 45 days, more or less
- eggs are buried 12 to 18 inches below the sand
- Once hatched, a male never returns to land, a female returns only to lay her eggs.
- a female reaches egg laying maturity in 3 to 7 years.
- a female will lay anywhere from every year to every three years.
- a female can lay as many as 4 nests in any one year
- a female is like a salmon, she always returns to the same beach where she was hatched to lay her eggs, even though she may travel as far as South America or Asia searching for food between laying seasons.

I volunteer at one of the Hatchling sites in Los Cabos. Last Monday night we had 45 Olive Ridleys hatched that were released to the sea. Last night, 80 Leatherbacks hatched and were successfully released. So we are hoping that we get 20 or 25 out of this number that will reach maturity. We are expecting another hatching tomorrow night. We have a total of 5 additional nests incubating right now to be hatched within the next month or so. We expect to gather eggs for several more nests between now and the end of the nesting season. Again, if you find a nest, contact one of the resorts above, contact Grupo Tortuguero, or contact me (by U2U) and I'll try to help you. The public is welcome to come, observe, and volunteer if you wish at our site. We had probably two dozen children here last night watching
the hatchlings who will become life long friends of sea turtles. Trained personnel will allow a child (and adult) to hold a hatchling before releasing to the sea.

If you run across a female on land, do not disturb her. Do not use bright lights (flashlights, flash on cameras, etc.) These lights will confuse and disorient her. The female needs to work in the dark and private to accomplish her job. She does her job best when observed at a distance without distractions or interference.

If you should be lucky enough to find some hatchlings making their way to the sea, DO NOT PICK THEM UP AND CARRY THEM TO THE WATER'S EDGE. It is natural for us to want to help them out, but they do best without our physical help. When they hatch, they will often have part of the yolk sack attached to them. Crawling across the sand (as much as 100 yards) scrubs off this yolk sack and makes the hatchling less appetizing to predatory fish once they enter the water. Also, the females fine tune their homing instinct by crawling to the water. Without this trek to the sea, a female does not establish her home destination and will not nest during her lifespan. What we can do is stand guard over the hatchlings to make sure that they all make it to the water without being picked off by predators while on land.

Finally, please be very careful with ATVs, horses, and dogs on the beach during nesting season. ATVs and horses can compact the sand and prevent a nest from hatching and dogs will dig up nests to eat the eggs.

The turtles appreciate all the help that Nomad amigos can give to them. They are a necessary asset to the natural environment and so much a part of the Baja experience.

Muchas gracias , Oxxo

http://bajatortuga.com/torpages.aspx

[Edited on 1-26-2009 by Sharksbaja]

Sharksbaja - 1-26-2009 at 12:43 AM

btw, I found this listed on the first Google page using keywords:

Turtle survival rate+Baja


Thanks oxxo

Dave, I think opportunists quietly kill and eat turtles and don't advertise their misdeeds. Would you?

Many people as well as myself tell of finding carapices along Bajas' beaches.

As provided by Natalie Ann, supra, we have discussed this topic before.

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-26-2009 at 05:09 AM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=32152&pag...

[Edited on 1-26-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

The Gull - 1-26-2009 at 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
So following this logic, one might assume that you agree that eating other human beings is cultural and just a part of nature that should not be regulated?? There certainly is no shortage of the human being animals and it is a practice that has occured in many parts of the world.

And in modern times, it has saved the lives of some, so maybe we should all try it---might be tasty.


The parts I've tried have been tasty.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

norte - 1-26-2009 at 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Yea, you are right. Here have a peanut butter sandwich... and some peanut butter cookies while your at it.




Norte....You're being a pest. Knock it off.


Who made you the board police?. For your info the gov't recently pulled peanut butter off the shelves. and the comment was to illustrate there is a valid purpose for eating laws.

David K - 1-26-2009 at 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Anyway... what do dogs have to do with turtles or endangered species?



Things you don't eat, for any number of reasons.

What's with you, David? (#1) Are you the self-apointed arbiter of right and wrong here?
(#2) Can you answer that without telling us where you and your parents were in November, '67?

(#3) Things have changed everywhere. They have new criteria for evaluation.

(#4)The turtles are being slaughtered. Everybody here knows that, including you. Why do you keep up with your slimey references to flavor and taste of the endangered species?

(#5) Your arrogance has finally made me sick.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1) No Dennis, just the opposite... I am wondering why some people WITHOUT facts like to tell us what to eat or drive or do (if it does not infringe on others). I am for freedom with live and let live ideas. Unlike the silly reference to cannibalism above, killing people or private property (dogs) is obviously not allowed because it does infringe on others.

#2) I share my old memories and photos here because I don't see that there are many who have traveled Baja before pavement with photos... I get plenty of messages to never stop sharing the look into the past. Don't let history (even my history) bother you, please. There are new Nomads daily and if I think it may be interesting, informative or educational to re-show an old photo... I will. It doesn't prevent you from posting here or reading something else.

#3) Change is NOT always good... and who is 'they' who think they know so much?

#4) If true, why are there still any around? Where are new photos of new 'slaughter'? Everybody knows this? I bet any of us can befriend a wealthy Mexican family or a fisherman in turtle regions and have a turtle dinner... THEY don't think it is 'slimey'... they know it IS a delicacy. It isn't on menus because it is illegal.

To wrap my message up: I am Baja Nomad's biggest fan... I have worked since the beginning to help Doug get the word out about this site. The sharing of Baja travel stories, news, and friendship is my biggest desire here... to help fellow Nomads and to help the people of Baja California.

Often I like to get people to engage and think about things, so I will bring up an opposite point of view. In the beginning of my posts here, I clearly said I am in favor of the turtle fishing ban and do not eat turtle or buy turtle oil products. The comments about taste good, etc. was based on facts from countless stories about eating turtle over the years in Baja. I didn't make it up... don't shoot the messenger!

I am sorry you find my reply to ZAC's post here so bothering... but, I (in no way) intended to make you or anyone sick... Just to converse about the subject. If people never speak out or share other sides, how can we learn and grow?

Now, please have a nice day... and never let an Internet message board upset you... I am sorry it happened, please accept my apology Dennis.

I took a chance

Tomas Tierra - 1-26-2009 at 10:11 AM

and did my part..

In'97 I was windsurfing in San Juanico, from inside 2nd point over to the beach across the bay. In the middle of the bay there was a turtle tied by his arm to a bouy near a live keep box..I sailed by a few times with this poor little dude(a verde) looking at me and struggling....I was able to get him free..I would guess he fell pray to another predator due to his severely weekened state...I thought for sure I would get a visit from the locals later in the day,,not hard to find the only camp with a big sail rigged..No visit..I felt pretty good about it, although I'm sure I ruined a Mexican Fiesta.......Would I eat a turtle taco???? Yes.. Would I order one?? No!

One time out in the boonies on the pac side, i was invited in for lunch by a very nice Mexican family.. They were dining on Manta Ray wings(deep fried in a disco)..THe man described chopping the tips of the wings off and sending the rest of the animal back to the ecosystem..Horrible act! Delicous lunch..

If a similar situation arose and turtle was on the menu, I would try it.

BTW, manta ray wings are widely available at the mercado negro in Ensenada..

Endangered Species Q. (or maybe political Q.)
Why did the black abalone just now make the endangered species list?....It has been virtually extinct for nearly a decade.