BajaNomad - CNN: Drug violence spins Mexico toward 'civil war'

CNN: Drug violence spins Mexico toward 'civil war'

Woooosh - 2-18-2009 at 09:16 PM

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/18/mexico.drug...

Story Highlights:

Drug-related conflicts bring waves of violence, death that some liken to a civil war

U.S. helps fuel violence with market for illegal drugs, weapons supply for drug gangs

"The drug gangs are better equipped than the army," expert says

Pervasive corruption among public officials also at center of drug cartels' success

[Edited on 2-19-2009 by Woooosh]

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2009 at 12:13 AM

Wouldn't that put the U.S. on the spot! It's one thing to invade a country thousands of miles away.

The 'expert' is an idiot

Dave - 2-19-2009 at 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
"The drug gangs are better equipped than the army," expert says

Last time I checked the cartels don't have tanks, APC's, fighter jets, a navy and ten's of thousands of combat troops.

Course, that don't mean shinola if you don't use them. :mad:

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 02:35 AM

That report is pure bullchit.

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
"The drug gangs are better equipped than the army," expert says

Last time I checked the cartels don't have tanks, APC's, fighter jets, a navy and ten's of thousands of combat troops.

Course, that don't mean shinola if you don't use them. :mad:

When the police issue bazookas, RPG's and fragmentation grenades to their street patrol cars- they'll be on even ground with the narcos. Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

DENNIS - 2-19-2009 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
When the police issue bazookas, RPG's and fragmentation grenades to their street patrol cars- they'll be on even ground with the narcos. Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

Think so? Remember what happened with the Zetas. All that special kick-ass training and what did they do with it? Went over to the better paying side. I don't think you want to give grenades to the street cops. Some day, they may decide to return them without the pin.

I know it's hard to believe but...

Dave - 2-19-2009 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

Mexico's a real country with an army, navy, and airforce. I remember Jesse posting about their acquiring a few of the the new Euro-fighters or Soviet MIG's.

And just in time :rolleyes:

fdt - 2-19-2009 at 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

Why is it that those with so many opinions are the ones that know less about subjects?

Bajajack - 2-19-2009 at 10:25 AM

Mexico has bought a massive amount of various weaponry in the last 10 years. Their biggest problem is keeping anything in running condition because of all the corruption and theft issues.

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

Why is it that those with so many opinions are the ones that know less about subjects?

I was asking a question- not stating a fact.

fdt - 2-19-2009 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I was asking a question- not stating a fact.

Me to

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I was asking a question- not stating a fact.

Me to

I don't think so.....

FDT is becomming a troll :lol:

Packoderm - 2-19-2009 at 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Does Mexico even have an air force with fighter jets?

Why is it that those with so many opinions are the ones that know less about subjects?

He was asking an honest question. Thank you for giving him (and me) some info on the matter. However, I don't see that as any reason to dig at him. About the jets: I really don't see how they're going to stop people from sneaking drugs across the border. They're no defense against aggression from the U.S., and it's hard to see Mexico needing jets to defend its border from Belize and Guatemala. Anyway, the best weapon against drug trafficking (short of outright legalization) would be to somehow provide alternative options for a decent standard of living for its citizens. Upon last report, Mexico is the 11th richest country in the world; I'm not saying that they should start acting like it, but at some point, something has got to give.

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 10:41 AM

Jets require constant maintenance,

Something that just seems to be non existant in the culture.

CAboRon :lol:

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I was asking a question- not stating a fact.

Me to

I don't think so.....

FDT is becomming a troll :lol:

No, he's just has that strong mexican pride and internalized denial that keeps this country from accepting serious problems even exist- let alone start resolving them. It's very Mexican, really and typical of all third world countries. Not his fault- it's socialized denial. The whole concept of mentioning an air force to prevent narco street crime is absurd.

fdt - 2-19-2009 at 10:45 AM

:lol:

LancairDriver - 2-19-2009 at 10:48 AM

The collateral damage in trying to use airpower and heavy-duty weaponry in the kind of conflict occurring in Mexico now would only alienate Mexican citizens who up until now are trying to stay out of it. As has been mentioned before on the Nomad site, the thing that stopped the gangster problem in the US during prohibition was the legalization of alcohol and not any governmental force.

Unfortunately there are no good solutions to this problem, particularly since the market in the US shows no signs of drying up.

DENNIS - 2-19-2009 at 11:25 AM

We need positive I.D.. Judgeing from the flag on the tail of that aircraft, it could be the Hungarian or Italian airforce
Holy Cow.....That is scarey.

Honestly...I had heard that Mexico has a precision flying team on the design of the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds. Anybody ever hear of that?

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2009 at 12:12 PM

Gee. If CaboRon is correct about Mexicans not being able to maintain machinery, then we're all in trouble. Last count saw 16 FAA certified maintenace facilities in Mexico, plus 1 other certified by JAA (EU), and 1 by DGAC(France). Three major international maintenance companies, SAMES, Snecma and Messier all have facilities in Queretaro. Mexicana works on planes from all over the world at their facility in Mexico City. So, I guess we're in trouble if we fly, huh?

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
The collateral damage in trying to use airpower and heavy-duty weaponry in the kind of conflict occurring in Mexico now would only alienate Mexican citizens who up until now are trying to stay out of it. As has been mentioned before on the Nomad site, the thing that stopped the gangster problem in the US during prohibition was the legalization of alcohol and not any governmental force.

Unfortunately there are no good solutions to this problem, particularly since the market in the US shows no signs of drying up.

The systemic problem with Mexico is the people accepted and even embraced the corruption over the decades. They knew no other way to supplement their paltry incomes- be it through Mordidas or the endless tramities.

Higher education as an institutional solution never occured to them because four years is "long range" thinking and they needed money yesterday. Even 15% of the police have only grade school educations. The only ones who could help Mexico- the smart and educated- left Mexico for a better life on the "other side" years ago and won't come back to help. They'll wave La Raza banners and Mexican flags stateside but what was the top topic of concern for last years's La Raza convention in San Diego- not the violence, corruption or declining Mexican economy- but "How the mortagage crisis is affecting Mexican Americans" wtf? Once they crossed the border they apparently turned their backs on their country forever. Now if they came back to promote change- they would likely be killed.

Mexicans "tried to stay out of it" so long their country is now almost unrecognizable and still they have no one to trust or turn to without putting their own family's safety in direct jeopardy. You can't hide indoors and peek out through curtains and expect social change for the better. Mexicans play victims much better than they do civil warriors. The country went from the dreamy land of Manana to the unstable land of nada over the past few years while everyone denied, hid, blamed the media and pointed a finger at the USA. When they did come out to protest it was for selfish reasons- they protested car import taxes and diesel fuel prices. It's only going to get worse, much worse.

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 01:37 PM

Narcos dont even come close to having the same weapons as the military.

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Narcos dont even come close to having the same weapons as the military.

I wouldn't be surprised if the narcos bought one of the hundreds of missing suitcase nukes. The narcos will use a bazooka to blow up a neighborhood bar- would the military? It's really not an issue of who has the most or strongest weapons arsenal- it's who would actually use them in the urban areas. We already know the narcos will.

CNN just reported that Sec. Clinton will likely appoint a Special Envoy to Mexico to deal with the increasing instability.

[Edited on 2-19-2009 by Woooosh]

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Wooosh,

An excellent explanation of the Mexican mind set.

CaboRon

DENNIS - 2-19-2009 at 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
CNN just reported that Sec. Clinton will likely appoint a Special Envoy to Mexico to deal with the increasing instability.

Why doesn't the bulbous ol' housewife go herself? Isn't that her job?

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 02:07 PM

New Rifles

Aliya class missile ships

UAV

Live Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKC614oGUVo

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
CNN just reported that Sec. Clinton will likely appoint a Special Envoy to Mexico to deal with the increasing instability.

Why doesn't the bulbous ol' housewife go herself? Isn't that her job? [/quote

no, it isn't actually.

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

New Rifles

Aliya class missile ships

UAV

Live Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKC614oGUVo

Looks like they have everything except the balls to use them. Their wives and mistresses have those.

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 02:39 PM

You can´t use war weaponry against civilian security problems, this is not Somalia my friend, and the narco problem regardless of the wild exagerations of the foreign press, are not even close to making this a failed country.

It's not the culture!

Dave - 2-19-2009 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Jets require constant maintenance,

Something that just seems to be non existant in the culture.

CAboRon :lol:

If it were, Mexico wouldn't have nuclear reactors.

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

New Rifles

Aliya class missile ships

UAV

Live Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKC614oGUVo

Jesse,

Would you kindly resize you pics.

Thanks

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
You can´t use war weaponry against civilian security problems, this is not Somalia my friend, and the narco problem regardless of the wild exagerations of the foreign press, are not even close to making this a failed country.

The narcos are already using these war weapons against civilians in urban areas and Mexico is indeed close to becoming a failed state- when a gov't can no longer protect its people. It's only a wild media exaggeration if it isn't happening in your area I guess. It's very real from my view.

Only good thing lately- the narcos have resorted to hiring people to protest the Mexican Army being involved in civilian law enforcement. They blocked several border crossings this week. At least Mexicans will protest if they are paid to- no matter that it's for the wrong side. A least they will leave their houses to support the narcos.

fdt - 2-19-2009 at 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Looks like they have everything except the balls to use them. Their wives and mistresses have those.

Boy, talk about a "Pedo Viejo SOS".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escuadr%C3%B3n_201

http://www.flightsuits.com/patch_201mfs.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_response_to_Hurricane_K...

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Looks like they have everything except the balls to use them. Their wives and mistresses have those.

Boy, talk about a "Pedo Viejo SOS".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escuadr%C3%B3n_201

http://www.flightsuits.com/patch_201mfs.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_response_to_Hurricane_K...

OK. Their grandfathers had balls in 1945. The ladies took them in 1946. And why is their fighter squad logo patch in English?

[Edited on 2-19-2009 by Woooosh]

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2009 at 05:50 PM

Geez. Mexico is the largest Spanish speaking country in the world, and its present state dates back two centuries. Give it a rest. Let Mexico be Mexico. Let them deal with their problems, which include an enormous demand for illict drugs in the U.S. They are a soverign nation with a long history. Dunno why people in the states try to make it their business.

fdt - 2-19-2009 at 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Why is it that those with so many opinions are the ones that know less about subjects?

You are definitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt SOS.
I'll ask again;
Why is it that those with so many opinions are the ones that know less about subjects?

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Jesse,

Would you kindly resize you pics.

Thanks

Caboron,

Would you resize your mind please?

Thanks

I don't appreciate having to move the page back and forth simply to read it. This is because certain people are too lazy to resize their pics. Doug has asked that your pics do not exceed 600 in width. What's your problem k-burro ??

CaboRon

Baja&Back - 2-19-2009 at 06:43 PM

Have to shake my head at all these AMERICAN armchair quarterbacks solving Mexico's narco problem.

If America had the balls to deal with AMERICAN druggies instead of pussyfooting around the issue, Mexico would not have a narco problem.

PS: CNN does not report news - they generate it. If you really want truth, try watching some international news channels.

Vented out now. Thx. :fire:

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

New Rifles

Aliya class missile ships

UAV

Live Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKC614oGUVo

Looks like they have everything except the balls to use them. Their wives and mistresses have those.

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Ok tell you what, if the US stops the massive flow of military grade weapons to Mexico, we promiss we will fix the problem.

Oh and by the way, polls show 80% of Mexicans think drug dealers should be round up and executed. The rest probably just want them arrested and put away for ever.

I still fail to see the two sides in this "civil war".

JESSE - 2-19-2009 at 07:24 PM

I dont know how to resize the pics, so sorry.

Woooosh - 2-19-2009 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

A complete triple border fence will help stop the flow of illegal weapons south. A real muti-tasker. I think that cow's out of the barn already though- they already have gotten enough weapons into Mexico... more than enough. The only ones that don't have guns are the people who need them most to protect their homes and families.

I doubt the death sentence will come into play anytime soon in Mexico, well except by the narcos. Mexico really can't stop the flow of drugs and money through its country anyway- it has no incentive. The USA /Mexico drug/gun connection is only one problem. Much of the drugs and money are just passing through Mexico and there's just too much money and power involved during transit for anyone to want to stop it. They depend on it - but they need to control their business.

If they legalized, regulated and taxed weed- like many are debating now- it would hurt them. But that wouldn't stop them- they would just turn to extrortions, prostitution and kidnappings to make up for the loss. The drugs are just the tool they are using for now- it's just what profits most right now. They are and will be very adaptable- and that's the deeper problem. JMHO

woody with a view - 2-19-2009 at 08:34 PM

Quote:

just like they said in the 20's - okay, during prohibition. the only answer is ZERO TOLERANCE! for everyone, on both sides of the border. if your husband/wife/roommate....ad nauseum, is part of a criminal enterprise, your bank account is state property and your house is bulldozed. "change we can believe in" will happen faster than you can say, "*uta madre!"

CaboRon - 2-19-2009 at 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I dont know how to resize the pics, so sorry.

If you would care to learn -------------just click on this link---

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=23465

Have a good day,

CaboRon

Packoderm - 2-19-2009 at 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

Quote:

I think in the case of marijuana, the death penalty is not necessary. Once you smoke it, you have given yourself a certain death sentence. Nobody can survive for more than 7 months after having tried smoking marijuana. So, it's a non issue. It is that harmful.

CaboRon - 2-20-2009 at 07:31 AM

Pacoderm,

Spoken like an alcoholic ....

Where do you get your information ..... it is pure bull ...

Compare the stats on alcohol, which is probably your drug of choice.

CaboRon

[Edited on 2-20-2009 by CaboRon]

DENNIS - 2-20-2009 at 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
I think in the case of marijuana, the death penalty is not necessary. Once you smoke it, you have given yourself a certain death sentence. Nobody can survive for more than 7 months after having tried smoking marijuana. So, it's a non issue. It is that harmful.

Ahhh yes....Reefer Madness revisited.
Thanks for that, Packo but, surely you jest. This can't be a sincere statement from anybody who putts around in the Cheech And Chong vanmobile.

Diver - 2-20-2009 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Is this supposed to be tongue-in-cheek ??
Or are you that amazingly mis-informed ?

I know many folks that have smoked pot frequently for over 40 years. They are mostly still alive and the majority are very successful in their lives/careers, etc.

Bajahowodd - 2-20-2009 at 12:05 PM

All I know is that I giggled when I read Pack's post. Serious or parody, it's still is funny. :tumble:

Bajahowodd - 2-20-2009 at 12:11 PM

I also wanna know why people keep messing up the slide show with text.

Terry28 - 2-21-2009 at 11:00 AM

I can't believe I am saying this but...I have to agree with Cabo Ron...
Ok, that didn't hurt to much...he is right...

BajaGringo - 2-21-2009 at 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Ahhh yes....Reefer Madness revisited.
Thanks for that, Packo but, surely you jest. This can't be a sincere statement from anybody who putts around in the Cheech And Chong vanmobile.

Eugenio - 2-23-2009 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
The Commerce secretary of Mexico,Gerardo Ruiz Mateos, went so far as to say that if Calderon is not successful in his battle against the narcos the next president of Mexico will be a narco.

CIUDAD DE MÉXICO.- El secretario de Economía, Gerardo Ruiz Mateos, aseguró hoy en París, durante un desayuno con la comunidad mexicana en la embajada de México, que si el Gobierno de Felipe Calderón no hubiera acentuado la lucha contra el narcotráfico "el siguiente Presidente de la República iba a ser un narcotraficante".

Mateos didn't say that "if Calderon is not successful in his battle against the narcos the next president of Mexico will be a narco."

Review your verb tense and mood - hubiera's subjunctive - not indicative - after si.

iba's not future - it's past.

He's saying that if Calerón had not intensified the war against the narcos that the following president was going to be a narco (goes along with the state within a state argument ).

But Calerón DID intensify it.

Mateos is quoted and paraphrased here in snippets - I wouldn't give the article too much weight.