BajaNomad - Corruption Permeates ALL Levels of Police in Mexico

Corruption Permeates ALL Levels of Police in Mexico

CaboRon - 5-19-2009 at 10:03 AM

Mexican police accused of protecting drug cartel
By ALEXANDRA OLSON, The Associated Press 7:21 p.m. May 17, 2009

MEXICO CITY — Three police officers and two other men were arrested on suspicion of working for a drug cartel in central Mexico, federal authorities said Sunday. A former state security chief and the police chief of a state capital were detained for questioning.

Investigators uncovered the alleged police corruption ring after the arrest earlier this month of 14 alleged members of the Beltran Leyva drug cartel in Cuernavaca, the capital of Morelos state, the Public Safety Department said in a statement.

The head of the Morelos police vehicle recovery unit was arrested for allegedly selling stolen cars and auto parts to the cartel, the statement said, while a former state police officer was arrested on suspicion of serving as a hit man.
Two Cuernavaca municipal police officers were accused of stealing cars and kidnapping for the Beltran Leyva gang, and a fifth suspect was also arrested as an alleged hit man.
Federal police came under fire as they raided a Cuernavaca building where four of the suspects were arrested Saturday, the department said. Police confiscated several weapons inside along with a banner bearing an unspecified message for President Felipe Calderon.

Federal investigators are questioning former Morelos state Public Safety Secretary Luis Angel Cabeza de Vaca Rodriguez and Cuernavaca police chief Francisco Sanchez Gonzalez, according to an Attorney General's Office press officer. The official, who could not be named because of agency policy, declined to provide further details.

Officials at the Public Safety Department could not be reached for further comment.

Corruption permeates all levels of police in Mexico,

a major obstacle to Calderon's U.S.-backed campaign to crush brutal drug gangs. Calderon insists he is cracking down: Last year, his government rooted out more than two dozen high-level government security officials, including a former drug czar, who were allegedly paid to protect the Sinaloa cartel.

On Saturday, the governor of Zacatecas, another central state, said prison guards were likely complicit in the escape of 53 inmates, including at least 27 with links to the Gulf cartel. About 20 gunmen freed the prisoners in a raid that lasted just five minutes.

Calderon has sent more than 45,000 soldiers to combat drug gangs, although the army has also been accused of abuses in the offensive.

Drug violence has killed more than 10,750 in the last 2 1/2 years.

Cabeza de Vaca had held his post until last week, but the statement from the Morelos government described him as the ex-public safety chief.

The brief statement said only that it was up to federal authorities to give information on their legal status, and that the Morelos government was cooperating with the investigation.

It was unclear if Sanchez had been removed as police chief. Local newspapers reported that he had been fired. The Morelos government statement said only that Mayor Roque Gonzalez had temporarily taken the reigns of the city police force in Cuernavaca, the Morelos state capital.

Phones rang unanswered Sunday at Morelos government offices. Cuernavaca city officials also could not be reached for comment.

Bajajack - 5-19-2009 at 10:13 AM

I would have to go one step further and say Corruption encompasses a large majority of the mexican population, it's part of their culture.

Woooosh - 5-19-2009 at 10:43 AM

The corruption is internal, they export the illiterate to endanger us (for you Ron)...

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/localnews/investi...

"News 8 Investigates: Airline mechanics who can't read English"

surfer jim - 5-19-2009 at 03:24 PM

Sort of backs up the idea of police chief that may be in charge of stealing vehicles and then selling them back to the origional owners.....

rts551 - 5-19-2009 at 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
I would have to go one step further and say Corruption encompasses a large majority of the mexican population, it's part of their culture.

And which of your dead brain cells came up with this brilliant statement.

vandenberg - 5-19-2009 at 03:36 PM

Life may not be the party we hoped for,
but while we are here we might as well dance.

Hey Ron,
Do they have life music or just disco at you trailerpark. :biggrin:

rpleger - 5-19-2009 at 03:39 PM

Taxation at the local level = mordida

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rpleger
Taxation at the local level = mordida

Except those "taxes" never go to repairs or enriching the general good ..... they line the pockets of the corrupt , and so continue the decline of the infrastructure.

Of course, they can be forgiven each week at the confessional ..... much like the cartel members who think the saints protect them ..... the legacy of the Catholic teachings :lol:

A church responsible for more mass murder than even Hitler was able to achive.

And Van, I just signed a lease on a luxery condo in a city that has more live entertainment than perhaps any city in the good ol' USA :lol:

And where did you learn to spell anyway :lol:

Sounds like you are the trailer trash.

The Gull - 5-20-2009 at 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

And Van, I just signed a lease on a luxery condo
And where did you learn to spell anyway :lol:

Sounds like you are the trailer trash.

Fascinating. Just fascinating. LUXERY and Cabron is the enstructure for this inglish clas. Mickey Mouse.

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

And Van, I just signed a lease on a luxery condo
And where did you learn to spell anyway :lol:

Sounds like you are the trailer trash.

Fascinating. Just fascinating. LUXERY and Cabron is the enstructure for this inglish clas. Mickey Mouse.

Very funny, I actually receive a modest pension after fifteen years working for Disney Entertainment Producions .... So, I know the mouse well .... mixed audio for him many times :lol:

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 07:28 AM

Ron I have the solution to solving the problem of corruption in Mexico.

This solution will resolve the problem within one year.

Death penalty to all public officials, government, politicos, funcionarios, teachers, federales, immigration, etc. who are caught red handed in acts of corruption. You get caught and without a doubt you have performed an act of corruption, you die. Case closed, next!

All acts of corruption are acts of treason. Treason is punishable by death. period.

Government is the worst offender and they set the example for others.

So get caught, you die.

It will be difficult to not get caught as the public will be armed with their cell phones capable of video recordings, hidden cameras, publicly organized sting operations, citizen arrests, etc.

These death penalties ought to be televised a la George Carlin's idea.

Now how do we get started? I'd run for president but I'm only naturalized so I figure maybe my husband can be president and I can be that strong wife behind him.

Part of the problem or part of the solution????

bajaguy - 5-20-2009 at 07:37 AM

This topic goes around and around on the Nomads board.

If you pay mordita, you are part of the problem. You continue to feed a bad habit and it doesn't go away, it just continues.

Either take the ticket, pay the fine and get a receipt or go see the chief of police or judge.......or do both.

Stand your ground. Yeah, it wil take some time, but this is one little way to break the cycle.

oxxo - 5-20-2009 at 08:01 AM

Mordita exists only because some people are willing to pay it. I have never experienced mordita, only because I have refused to pay. I have been stopped for traffic violations probably 6 times in 40 years of driving in Baja. Two of those times I was guilty and paid the fine to a judge with receipt. Total fines were about 300 pesos for the two infractions. The other 4 times, I did not commit the alleged infraction, refused to pay the cop on the street and he reluctantly sent me on my way.

shari - 5-20-2009 at 08:49 AM

I dont think many people who dont live here full time fully understand what mordidas really are. Yes, true, they are often associated with traffic issues but it is also a cultural reality that one is confronted with on a daily basis.

Mexico is full of tramites and paperwork, red tape etc. and in order to get anything done regarding permits, titles etc....well dont hold your breath unless you are offering "incentives" to someone to get your papers to the top of the heap. They can be called "favors" but if ya dont offer them...well...your stuff just goes to the bottom of the pile. It isnt a matter of being willing to offer it...it is more like are you willing NOT to get anywhere on your paperwork...or go ahead and send over that bottle of scotch to the official and be done with it. although I certainly dont agree with the system...we have to deal with the system and how it works.
So I will continue to buy the garbage guys or the village secretaries a soda as an incentive for better service and to show them I appreciate their work....it is not a mordida, but a thank you for services rendered. No you dont HAVE to do it but it sure helps when you need to get something done.

It isnt necessarily money exchanged either...anyway...if Pam's Plan is implimented...hmmm...there sure would be alot of job openings and the undertakers would cash in big time.
It is so difficult to address this issue as it is so widespread on all levels of society. I do understand it better now though and have learned to accept it and not be angry. i would love to see it change and I guess baby steps are the only way to go...it will take forever but ya gotta start somewhere.

[Edited on 5-20-2009 by shari]

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 09:20 AM

How can you possibly roll over and accept coruption ...

You are then part of the problem...

Bajajack - 5-20-2009 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I dont think many people who dont live here full time fully understand what mordidas really are. Yes, true, they are often associated with traffic issues but it is also a cultural reality that one is confronted with on a daily basis.

Mexico is full of tramites and paperwork, red tape etc. and in order to get anything done regarding permits, titles etc....well dont hold your breath unless you are offering "incentives" to someone to get your papers to the top of the heap. They can be called "favors" but if ya dont offer them...well...your stuff just goes to the bottom of the pile. It isnt a matter of being willing to offer it...it is more like are you willing NOT to get anywhere on your paperwork...or go ahead and send over that bottle of scotch to the official and be done with it. although I certainly dont agree with the system...we have to deal with the system and how it works.
So I will continue to buy the garbage guys or the village secretaries a soda as an incentive for better service and to show them I appreciate their work....it is not a mordida, but a thank you for services rendered. No you dont HAVE to do it but it sure helps when you need to get something done.

It isnt necessarily money exchanged either...anyway...if Pam's Plan is implimented...hmmm...there sure would be alot of job openings and the undertakers would cash in big time.
It is so difficult to address this issue as it is so widespread on all levels of society. I do understand it better now though and have learned to accept it and not be angry. i would love to see it change and I guess baby steps are the only way to go...it will take forever but ya gotta start somewhere.

[Edited on 5-20-2009 by shari]

So what you're saying is what I've been saying all along, mexicans are basically dishonest,.

An honest person would not expect nor accept a bribe for doing what they've already been paid to do, nuff said. :coolup:

danaeb - 5-20-2009 at 09:30 AM

So the fun time has moved from offi-topic to this forum. Can we set up a discussion thread - the "I hate Mexico and Mexicans" discussion group?

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danaeb
So the fun time has moved from offi-topic to this forum. Can we set up a discussion thread - the "I hate Mexico and Mexicans" discussion group?

It's the Circle of Life ....

rpleger - 5-20-2009 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

An honest person would not expect nor accept a bribe for doing what they've already been paid to do, nuff said. :coolup:

Just like our congressmen in the Homeland....I think that I would rather pay locally...

shari - 5-20-2009 at 10:12 AM

I guess it's not seen as a bribe...but more like an incentive. The root of the problem is they dont get paid diddley squat so any little gift is appreciated. If the normal honest person was paid what they deserve...well...things would be different I'm sure.

Bajajack - 5-20-2009 at 10:25 AM

So the consensus is, if the average mex doesn't make enough legally it's perfectly alright to Lie, Cheat & Steal to make up the difference.

Makes sense to me.

:rolleyes:

shari - 5-20-2009 at 10:34 AM

I dont see it as lying cheating or stealing...it IS your perrogative...they dont ask for it...it is just common knowledge that if you want to get better service...you provide incentive for them to serve you

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
So the consensus is, if the average mex doesn't make enough legally it's perfectly alright to Lie, Cheat & Steal to make up the difference.

Makes sense to me.

:rolleyes:

And some wonder why la baja is a fourth world country :lol:

Bajajack - 5-20-2009 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I dont see it as lying cheating or stealing...it IS your perrogative...they dont ask for it...it is just common knowledge that if you want to get better service...you provide incentive for them to serve you

If that's the way you see it and condone it then you must have some real Honesty issues of your own.

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 10:57 AM

I don't give a flying F- if it is the custom. I have had it. it needs to stop we are all being fooled. it is destroying this country and its future our children.

Death to all traitors. televised and sponsored on prime time, perhaps those undertakers would stand to achieve reaching their target market share. Zapata did the same, no questions asked. shoot them...next!

Death penalty to all government corruption. Tramites my a$$. we pay for those if they don't like their jobs then F- em. Ahem.

gotta admit death penalty applied and televised for all without a doubt acts of corruption WILL wipe out the problem in short order. :biggrin:

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack

Quote:

If that's the way you see it and condone it then you must have some real Honesty issues of your own.

Sure seems that way doesn't it ...

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I don't give a flying F- if it is the custom. I have had it. it needs to stop we are all being fooled. it is destroying this country and its future our children.

Death to all traitors. televised and sponsored on prime time, perhaps those undertakers would stand to achieve reaching their target market share. Zapata did the same, no questions asked. shoot them...next!

Death penalty to all government corruption. Tramites my a$$. we pay for those if they don't like their jobs then F- em. Ahem.

gotta admit death penalty applied and televised for all without a doubt acts of corruption WILL wipe out the problem in short order. :biggrin:

In short I agree except it should be tiered as follows:
All elected officials...Death with no other sentence possible.
All government employees...10 years in prison except death if it involves Drugs or murder.
All other citizens...10 years in prison for asking and most important 7 years in prison for paying a bribe. "edit" All US citizens 15 years in prison.
No plea bargains and these are minimums sentences. (or max...)
You might say this is ridiculous and you would be right...oh it would work and there is no doubt about this, but there is no way you could shove it down the throat of Government.
First they cannot make a dime off it and it is all about their a$$ in the grinder.
The person that figures a way to shove it in the "#$&" 545 people in the US, who write all the laws, will change the world over night. My hero.... :lol:

:-))

[Edited on 5-20-2009 by Al G]

shari - 5-20-2009 at 12:51 PM

Nahhh...no honesty issues here. I am being honest about the reality of the situation here. Glad I'm not self righteous.

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 01:02 PM

Al G yes there would have to be layers but once that happens then corruption would take over. We simply must set examples, make examples of the offenders before it will stop.

Emiliano Zapata, when confronted with a person in his own platoon (or whatever the hell you call it I'm no military expert) who was even suspected of dishonesty shot them dead. There can be no question when it comes to treason. corruption is treason and punishable by death.

To the guy that said this is a Mexico hate forum or something to that affect,
no. I love Mexico and wish to see it change so that every single person here has the opportunity to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. right now and for over 500 years this hasn't been and isn't the case. Maybe I am putting my ideals on these people here but they already have these rights I didn't create them. I am only spreading the knowledge to people that they do have rights and that they must always be ready to defend them.

in closing I have already mentioned my concept to several others and so far they are receiving it quite well. la gente tienen el poder nunca olvidala

vandenberg - 5-20-2009 at 01:08 PM

Pam,

With your drastic measures there won't be enough people left to run the country. :no:

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 01:24 PM

no they'll be running out of the country...I LIKE IT!

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Pam,

With your drastic measures there won't be enough people left to run the country. :no:

They can't run it now :lol:

[Edited on 5-20-2009 by CaboRon]

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 01:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Al G yes there would have to be layers but once that happens then corruption would take over. We simply must set examples, make examples of the offenders before it will stop.

To the guy that said this is a Mexico hate forum or something to that affect,
no. ,
Quote:

To the guy that said this is a Mexico hate forum or something to that affect,
The people who say what we are discussing is HATE, are now and have always been talking with their wallets. They don't care about Mexico...they only care how much their assets are worth now. The joke is on them!!! If some how what we are saying changed Mexico(or US)...their assets would go through the roof.
Developers, dirt sellers, and house flippers are and will always be the most deceptive people in existence.

[Edited on 5-20-2009 by Al G]

vandenberg - 5-20-2009 at 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
They can't it now

Try English, maybe.

Cypress - 5-20-2009 at 01:35 PM

It's all about pay as you go. If you don't pay, you don't go. It's the same story north or south of the border.

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 01:37 PM

OK Al so we should also shoot the developers, house flippers and dirt sellers. we can use them like target practice to get the message across, again.....I LIKE IT! jeeze I feel like shootin something now I better drive out into the desert pretty soon with some empty cans, for "recycling".

Come over to the dark side
Dave - 5-20-2009 at 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I don't give a flying F- if it is the custom. I have had it. it needs to stop we are all being fooled. it is destroying this country and its future our children.

Used to be like you. Hated the corruption. Crusaded against it.

Now, I've seen the light. Anything is possible. All you have to do is pay.

I like being at the head of the line.

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I don't give a flying F- if it is the custom. I have had it. it needs to stop we are all being fooled. it is destroying this country and its future our children.

Used to be like you. Hated the corruption. Crusaded against it.

Now, I've seen the light. Anything is possible. All you have to do is pay.

I like being at the head of the line.

"edit" All US citizens 15 years in prison...
I like lines....

norte - 5-20-2009 at 02:52 PM

Makin a list, checkin it twice

La migra is comin to town~!

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Makin a list, checkin it twice

La migra is comin to town~!

Norte...is this a threat from you?

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Makin a list, checkin it twice

La migra is comin to town~!

yawn

Bajajack - 5-20-2009 at 05:04 PM

Viva La Migra.

flyfishinPam - 5-20-2009 at 05:09 PM

Viva Zapata

oxxo - 5-20-2009 at 05:26 PM

Viva another bowl of popcorn!

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 06:20 PM

I was set to rag on "norte" after reading his last 20-30 posts, but you people took it out of me...
DK is the focus of his hostility...I know not why
I thought he was a narco gathering info.... stupid me.
My guess:
A Mexican citizen defending his country...
Young
His experience here will be of great value...

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
Nahhh...no honesty issues here. I am being honest about the reality of the situation here. Glad I'm not self righteous.

Yes the reality is rampant corruption and lying ....

Not Acceptable

No...Perfecty acceptable
Dave - 5-20-2009 at 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Yes the reality is rampant corruption and lying ....

Not Acceptable

That's why it's rampant.

Woooosh - 5-20-2009 at 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Yes the reality is rampant corruption and lying ....

Not Acceptable

That's why it's rampant.

We should blame the Spanish for bringing their corrupt systems to Mexico... Mexicans are only guilty of being too lazy to create their own legitimate ones.

CaboRon - 5-20-2009 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Yes the reality is rampant corruption and lying ....

Not Acceptable

That's why it's rampant.

We should blame the Spanish for bringing their corrupt systems to Mexico... Mexicans are only guilty of being too lazy to create their own legitimate ones.

Al G - 5-20-2009 at 07:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ron... don't be so happy here...There is no real answer. the best I have heard is Pam's and that is not going to happen...

The Gull - 5-20-2009 at 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danaeb
So the fun time has moved from offi-topic to this forum. Can we set up a discussion thread - the "I hate Mexico and Mexicans" discussion group?

I can nominate two frequent "contributors" to be the moderators of that new section of the board.

shari - 5-21-2009 at 07:53 AM

As rampant as corruption is...it IS changing. The problem IS being addressed. Change comes slow (without public hangings that is). But things are moving forward poco a poco. There IS light at the end of the tunnel.
I totally understand Pam's feelings on this. It really does drive one to distraction. It is so overwhelming at times and so foreign to us northerners because it goes against the grain of our "moral fibre". It makes us crazy and ya wanna scream...It has made me so upset so many times that now I try to take a few deep breaths, remind myself that it is the price of doing business and living in this beautiful place. Worth it in my opinion once you get your shorts out of the knot.

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
As rampant as corruption is...it IS changing. The problem IS being addressed. Change comes slow (without public hangings that is). But things are moving forward poco a poco. There IS light at the end of the tunnel.
I totally understand Pam's feelings on this. It really does drive one to distraction. It is so overwhelming at times and so foreign to us northerners because it goes against the grain of our "moral fibre". It makes us crazy and ya wanna scream...It has made me so upset so many times that now I try to take a few deep breaths, remind myself that it is the price of doing business and living in this beautiful place. Worth it in my opinion once you get your shorts out of the knot.

All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth becasue the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can seperate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

gnukid - 5-21-2009 at 10:35 AM

When I call out corruption to their faces, they don't flinch, hardly a smirk. That's why contrary to some posters impressions the thieves don't react when you call them out, they acknowledge who and what they are.

(This is of course contrary to the idea that we should be intimidated and in fear of being murdered as DK, Dave and Dennis professed unapologetically recently. You guys should ashamed, you are complicit in spreading intimidation and you still own me and everyone an apology.)

I have a good way to deal with it, call them out on it, politely, the cops, the hacienda, everyone, but nicely. Then I begin a slowly building diatribe about the example to children, the cost to families and seniors especially, how it hurts teachers of children, fisherman, the cost of food to families, that the mirror of corruption from top to bottom permeates the community and spreads like a disease. That corruption is like cement that holds back the young from a better future, that corruption and the rats who rob the good people of Mexico break down all possibilities for a better future for all children. That each rata that is complicit, by example, teaches another child to repeat the behavior robbing not only the person paying mordida but robs each child and family from a chance to be something better.

If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Not from my perspective
Dave - 5-21-2009 at 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
As rampant as corruption is...it IS changing. The problem IS being addressed. Change comes slow (without public hangings that is). But things are moving forward poco a poco. There IS light at the end of the tunnel.

Rosarito brought in federal troops and AFI because the police were totally corrupt. Now, the Army and AFI are lining their pockets. The local police are understandably peeed and taking it out on the local populace. Nothing has changed except perception.

shari - 5-21-2009 at 11:06 AM

I'm referring to the whole shebang...not just police. A good example here is our fisheries officer...no way jose anyone could bribe him..he is an honest, straight up guy which is really refreshing and makes it easy and clear to deal with him. I am seeing more responsible, intelligent, honest officials in a variety of positions and the government is making it easier to make a complaint and report corruption...and they are acting on complaints. At least here in the Sur...there seems to be more accountabliity these days....or am I just being optomistic.

bajalou - 5-21-2009 at 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth because the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can separate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

You could very easily substitute "US of A" for "Mexico".

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
When I call out corruption to their faces, they don't flinch, hardly a smirk. That's why contrary to some posters impressions the thieves don't react when you call them out, they acknowledge who and what they are.

(This is of course contrary to the idea that we should be intimidated and in fear of being murdered as DK, Dave and Dennis professed unapologetically recently. You guys should ashamed, you are complicit in spreading intimidation and you still own me and everyone an apology.)

I have a good way to deal with it, call them out on it, politely, the cops, the hacienda, everyone, but nicely. Then I begin a slowly building diatribe about the example to children, the cost to families and seniors especially, how it hurts teachers of children, fisherman, the cost of food to families, that the mirror of corruption from top to bottom permeates the community and spreads like a disease. That corruption is like cement that holds back the young from a better future, that corruption and the rats who rob the good people of Mexico break down all possibilities for a better future for all children. That each rata that is complicit, by example, teaches another child to repeat the behavior robbing not only the person paying mordida but robs each child and family from a chance to be something better.

If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Great post. But what if corruption it is the only system they have ever known since birth? You can't change peoples actions or values when they are socially deprived or even morally bankrupt to some extent.

American's "sense of decency" (an Obama term) comes from centuries of our fathers and grandfathers doing the right thing and fighting the good fights for the mostpart. It's what makes America the envy/whipping boy of the world at the same time. Mexicans simply don't have that point of reference yet, and until they do- they are unlikely to change or even think about changing.

One example is car insurance. Very few Mexicans buy it- if there is an accident they count of Mordidas and street-negotiations to resolve the problem. Sure they could buy insurance- but they trust the mordida system since it's what they know and have grown up with. I recently demanded my nephew to buy at least liability insurance for the used truck we loaned him the money to buy. He looked at me like I was nuts. I asked his friends and three neighbors if they had insurance and they all said no. I sent him out looking for quotes and rates anyway- and he came back empty handed. Something that basic shouldn't be that hard to buy- but for some reason it is for Mexicans. Toursits with foreign vehicles have no problem sourcing car insurance options at the border but for some reason the average Mexican doesn't seem concerned.

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth because the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can separate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

You could very easily substitute "US of A" for "Mexico".

No you can't. Whole different animal down to the genetics. Our Kings are nobel.

Bajajack - 5-21-2009 at 11:54 AM

Ask any Mexican on the Mainland and they will tell you Baja, Oaxaca and Chiapas really are Stuck on Stupid because of their largely Indio Bloodlnes and low Intelligence level. You can't teach em new tricks and they don't want to change.

Al G - 5-21-2009 at 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth because the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can separate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

You could very easily substitute "US of A" for "Mexico".

No you can't. Whole different animal down to the genetics. Our Kings are nobel.

I admit you have me confused...there are 545 people that write our laws and not one of those SOBs are Nobel.

Come on down...
Dave - 5-21-2009 at 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

and I'll introduce you to Rosarito's finest. There'll be some crying...but not by the police.

flyfishinPam - 5-21-2009 at 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
As rampant as corruption is...it IS changing. The problem IS being addressed. Change comes slow (without public hangings that is). But things are moving forward poco a poco. There IS light at the end of the tunnel.
I totally understand Pam's feelings on this. It really does drive one to distraction. It is so overwhelming at times and so foreign to us northerners because it goes against the grain of our "moral fibre". It makes us crazy and ya wanna scream...It has made me so upset so many times that now I try to take a few deep breaths, remind myself that it is the price of doing business and living in this beautiful place. Worth it in my opinion once you get your shorts out of the knot.

shari while what you say is true the difference here is that you and I made a conscious choice to be here and deal as best we can with the situation. i accept that and deal but our children, family and friends here in Mexico did not make that choice. why should they be forced to live with it? and why shouldn't we offer them a chance to change it?

edited to add not

[Edited on 5-22-2009 by flyfishinPam]

Bajajack - 5-21-2009 at 12:30 PM

It's time to bring back Pancho Villa, Viva La Revolucion.

flyfishinPam - 5-21-2009 at 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
At least here in the Sur...there seems to be more accountabliity these days....or am I just being optomistic.

I am sorry to say that corruption is much worse now that it was when I made the move to live here fulltime in 1999. its disheartening very sad

Mango - 5-21-2009 at 12:31 PM

I stopped reading this thread after the first page.

Pretty much if you choose to live somewhere; you, have to learn to accept the culture and work with it. You can't impose, expect, or demand to impose your own culture into another culture without problems.

This thread shows more about how many foreigners do not respect, understand, or even care to learn about Mexican culture. It's not perfect, no culture is.

I'm convinced that some here would wander around Mecca in a bikini and get peeed they couldn't find a c-cktail bar. They got the fool part down... still looking for pardise though.

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Al G

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth because the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can separate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

You could very easily substitute "US of A" for "Mexico".

No you can't. Whole different animal down to the genetics. Our Kings are nobel.

I admit you have me confused...there are 545 people that write our laws and not one of those SOBs are Nobel.

None of the 545 lawmakers are Kings. They are the rooks and bishops of the Kings. That much is true on both sides of the border.

In Mexico a King example would be the narco who recently made it onto the Forbe's list of the worlds wealthiest people. He is in hiding and invisiable, yet much more powerful and influential than any lawmakers. In the USA a King could be the Lobbyists- look how long it has taken to address credit card companies, Tobacco, or even Big Oil? Karl Rove is a King, Bush certainly was not. Bill Gates and Carlos Slim are both Kings- but very different ones. Gates gives virtually all his Billions away for the better of the world. If Carlos Slim gave every Mexican family a free phone line and a $200 laptop he could move Mexcio forward faster socially than anyone or anything else.

flyfishinPam - 5-21-2009 at 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
American's "sense of decency" (an Obama term) comes from centuries of our fathers and grandfathers doing the right thing and fighting the good fights for the mostpart. It's what makes America the envy/whipping boy of the world at the same time. Mexicans simply don't have that point of reference yet, and until they do- they are unlikely to change or even think about changing.

OK then using your logic we shouldn't interfere with women's right in other countries either. Since they've been doing it for hundreds of years we'll just let them just keep burying women up to their necks and stone them for even only an accusation of misbehaviour, and say nothing. they are unlikely to change or even think about changing? why don't you ask a few campesinos this question.

flyfishinPam - 5-21-2009 at 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:
Originally posted by Al G

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
All Mexico needs is a plan and the will to follow it. Mexico is NOT a poor country, it is rich in natural resources but fails to distribute the wealth because the "kings" are in control. The "Kings" like things the way they are in Mexico. There are Kings in gov't, business world, the Military and of-course in the Narco world. Until you can separate the wealth of Mexico from the King's control- there can be no change.

You could very easily substitute "US of A" for "Mexico".

No you can't. Whole different animal down to the genetics. Our Kings are nobel.

I admit you have me confused...there are 545 people that write our laws and not one of those SOBs are Nobel.

None of the 545 lawmakers are Kings. They are the rooks and bishops of the Kings. That much is true on both sides of the border.

In Mexico a King example would be the narco who recently made it onto the Forbe's list of the worlds wealthiest people. He is in hiding and invisiable, yet much more powerful and influential than any lawmakers. In the USA a King could be the Lobbyists- look how long it has taken to address credit card companies, Tobacco, or even Big Oil? Karl Rove is a King, Bush certainly was not. Bill Gates and Carlos Slim are both Kings- but very different ones. Gates gives virtually all his Billions away for the better of the world. If Carlos Slim gave every Mexican family a free phone line and a $200 laptop he could move Mexcio forward faster socially than anyone or anything else.

WOOOOWOOOOOO

enter the vortex!

flyfishinPam - 5-21-2009 at 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango
I stopped reading this thread after the first page.

Pretty much if you choose to live somewhere; you, have to learn to accept the culture and work with it. You can't impose, expect, or demand to impose your own culture into another culture without problems.

This thread shows more about how many foreigners do not respect, understand, or even care to learn about Mexican culture. It's not perfect, no culture is.

I'm convinced that some here would wander around Mecca in a bikini and get peeed they couldn't find a c-cktail bar. They got the fool part down... still looking for pardise though.

I can't just let this ne go. Stopped reading after the first page and posted on page three? OK well you may read disrespect of culture but unfortunately you stopped reading once you decided what all participants are like in your mind. The above comments you made are untrue of all that posted on this thread, well except for Ron , just kidding!

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 12:41 PM

Hey- if you can't take one of Rons threads to the twightlight zone- why even post? It is interesting though.

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
American's "sense of decency" (an Obama term) comes from centuries of our fathers and grandfathers doing the right thing and fighting the good fights for the mostpart. It's what makes America the envy/whipping boy of the world at the same time. Mexicans simply don't have that point of reference yet, and until they do- they are unlikely to change or even think about changing.

OK then using your logic we shouldn't interfere with women's right in other countries either. Since they've been doing it for hundreds of years we'll just let them just keep burying women up to their necks and stone them for even only an accusation of misbehaviour, and say nothing. they are unlikely to change or even think about changing? why don't you ask a few campesinos this question.

I respect your post- but don't see the connection to mine. I take the Davinci Code approach to womens rights. The world was designed to be run by women and was doing well that way until men got peeed off about it. Some maternal primitive societies still exist in Africa, the AMazon and indonesia. Women give birth and run the show while the men are sent out to hunt. But the Catholic church decided to make men more important and had all the outspoken women of the time put to death as witches (in the millions). The Catholic church made men dominant, prevented women from participating and is still operating that way. Islam just isn't as nice about it.

[Edited on 5-21-2009 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 5-21-2009 at 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Do you have that many encounters with the police that you can concentrate on perfecting your method of peaceful resistance? Sounds like a hobby.

Ghandi meets Mexico
Dave - 5-21-2009 at 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Do you have that many encounters with the police that you can concentrate on perfecting your method of peaceful resistance? Sounds like a hobby.

Any bets on how that'll turn out?

I'd pay to see it.

Woooosh - 5-21-2009 at 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Do you have that many encounters with the police that you can concentrate on perfecting your method of peaceful resistance? Sounds like a hobby.

Any bets on how that'll turn out?

I'd pay to see it.

with or without the moderator intervening again?

Bajajack - 5-21-2009 at 01:45 PM

You mean the Mex Biased Moderator.

gnukid - 5-21-2009 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
If you continue this line they usually start crying and eventually give in. Try it. It wokrs everytime and you'll never pay mordida again. If you get good at it, they collapse in seconds.

Do you have that many encounters with the police that you can concentrate on perfecting your method of peaceful resistance? Sounds like a hobby.

Any bets on how that'll turn out?

I'd pay to see it.

That is the best insult you could come up with... your losing it Dave. Where's the vicious, negative and spiteful Dave we know so well? Probably at a meet-up with Dennis and DK getting drunk and angry to plot more insidious negativity I would expect?

Jaja keep it up, your posts are a real asset! You're a big help you know. A real good will sprirt!

Boo hoo
Dave - 5-21-2009 at 02:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
with or without the moderator intervening again?

Yeah, some of the kiddies run crying to mama.

Four birds...one stone
Dave - 5-21-2009 at 02:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Where's the vicious, negative and spiteful Dave we know so well? Probably at a meet-up with Dennis and DK getting drunk and angry to plot more insidious negativity I would expect?

Nah, We're always too drunk to make the meeting.

How's this:

You come along as designated driver. Then when the cops stop us you can practice your diplomacy.

The DEATH Penalty ?
MrBillM - 5-21-2009 at 03:51 PM

I can see where the Death Penalty would work out in Mexico, especially as applied to Officialdom.

Providing a way out of it for those sentenced would be an excellent source of Mordida. And not the petty kind.

For myself, "I don't want to set the world on Fire" and I certainly don't give a crap about reforming Anybody else's political system if it doesn't work to my advantage.

I'll pay on the spot as long as it's reasonable. The only time in many, many occasions when I declined, it was because the amount requested was too high. AND, that was only once years ago. Since then I've been a satisfied customer.

Y'All who are dedicated to reforming the system check in once in awhile so we know how that's going. Consider me the (willing and paying) enemy. It's OK.

DENNIS - 5-21-2009 at 04:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
I can see where the Death Penalty would work out in Mexico, especially as applied to Officialdom.

Providing a way out of it for those sentenced would be an excellent source of Mordida. And not the petty kind.

For myself, "I don't want to set the world on Fire" and I certainly don't give a crap about reforming Anybody else's political system if it doesn't work to my advantage.

I'll pay on the spot as long as it's reasonable. The only time in many, many occasions when I declined, it was because the amount requested was too high. AND, that was only once years ago. Since then I've been a satisfied customer.

Y'All who are dedicated to reforming the system check in once in awhile so we know how that's going. Consider me the (willing and paying) enemy. It's OK.

I wish I'd said that.

Bajajack - 5-21-2009 at 05:25 PM

While I do Deplore the present system there are times when it has it's uses but not for me as I believe Honesty & Goodness and all that, well except maybe something involving Jail Time.

arrowhead - 5-21-2009 at 07:26 PM

Well, I'll tell you, if Felipe Calderon cannot beat the cartels within the three years left in his presidency, the next president of Mexico will be a drug dealer. The cartels have the money, power and connections to steal the next election. When that happens, any ex-pat had better have his bags packed.

And the death penalty won't work in Mexico. For one thing, criminals do crimes based upon their estimate of how likely they would be caught, not the severity of the penalty. For another thing, if Mexico had the death penalty, the only people executed would be innocent people too poor to pay off the authorities.

Mango - 5-21-2009 at 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
... the next president of Mexico will be a drug dealer. The cartels have the money, power and connections to steal the next election. When that happens, any ex-pat had better have his bags packed.

The CIA would have that guy dead in moments...that is unless he was dealing drugs for them.

CaboRon - 5-21-2009 at 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
... the next president of Mexico will be a drug dealer. The cartels have the money, power and connections to steal the next election. When that happens, any ex-pat had better have his bags packed.

The CIA would have that guy dead in moments...that is unless he was dealing drugs for them.

The CIA couldn't take out Castro, what makes you think they are any more effective now ?

Mango - 5-22-2009 at 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
... the next president of Mexico will be a drug dealer. The cartels have the money, power and connections to steal the next election. When that happens, any ex-pat had better have his bags packed.

The CIA would have that guy dead in moments...that is unless he was dealing drugs for them.

The CIA couldn't take out Castro, what makes you think they are any more effective now ?

Your right. My bad. They'd probably just make him an offer he couldn't refuse and go into business with him. Mexico doesn't have the market cornered on corruption.

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/9712/index.htm