BajaNomad

What happens if a notario messes up on a transaction?

BajaNuts - 5-23-2009 at 02:27 PM

It looks like the seller of the property we bought last year didn't have a clear, processed title on the land. Isn't it the responsibility of the notario to make sure all of that is in order before signing off on the transaction?

If the notario did something wrong or screwed up somehow, what recourse do we have against the notario? We have a feeling he knows he screwed up because he refused to meet a representative we asked to go talk to him and find out what's going on.

We used one of the oldest notario firms in La Paz. If their reputations are supposed to be above reproach, what happens if they screw up?

I know, same old story......
We used a larger real estate firm, 2 agents were involved, their lawyer, the translator, and what was supposed to be the best notario in La Paz.

(The titles are in process, but to complicate matters worse, the seller is now dead!)

Anyway, what do you think about the notario?

longlegsinlapaz - 5-23-2009 at 03:40 PM

Jeeeeez!! You guys gotta start hanging with a better class of people...maybe some who are honest & ethical!

That aside, which Notario? U2U if you want, but I personally believe other should know who to avoid.

You are correct in the assumption that the Notario is responsible for going to Catastro & getting documents proving taxes are paid up, title has been issued, is clear & without liens. There is a cost for these documents & that cost is built into the overall charges for the fideicomiso & these documents become part of the fideiocmiso.

First of all what leads you to believe there is a problem? "The titles are in process, but to complicate matters worse, the seller is now dead!" tells me that you haven't yet gone to the Notario, met with the seller to finalize, sign the closing documents & both sign "The BIG BOOK"?? Correct?

I'd personally go talk with the Notario when you're down here. If you need a translator, you can request the Dept. of Tourism certified translator at no cost. Take him, find out exactly what the situation is, he'll then recommend how best to proceed, i.e., PROFECO, Mediation, Ministario Publico, etc. Or he might be able to get the Notario to step up to the plate & initiate a process to make things right; if that's possible. The seller's death really does open a can of ugly worms if the transaction had to be canceled, as property reverts to family here & the chance of you getting your down payment back would be virtually non-existent!:no::no: What you MAY have in your favor is if the family wants/needs $, they MAY honor the original seller's agreement with you because the remaining money due at closing would now go directly to them. Or they could jack you around & tell you the cost of the land has now gone up!:fire:

To be honest, from the information you provided, the odds aren't in your favor for a positive outcome.

[Edited on 5-25-2009 by longlegsinlapaz]

I think you can have him shot

Dave - 5-23-2009 at 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
What happens if a notario messes up on a transaction?


Really. I think it's written in the constitution.

comitan - 5-23-2009 at 04:29 PM

Do you believe in Omens?:yawn::yawn:

BajaNuts - 5-23-2009 at 05:39 PM

As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative (sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy!

As I said, many people were involved in the transaction, if something wasn't right, I would have thought someone would have said something. Guess not...

Once we started the process for fidecomiso, all this other stuff started coming up. First of all, can't do the fido cuz the lot is over 2000sm, then they kept saying they were waiting for title. We finally got someone to help us and dig up all this info including the fact the seller is dead. She tried to talk to the notario but he wouldn't see her.

I'm wondering if I could send/email copies of all my documents to another notario or attorney and have them look them over for anything not right. I got all the official seals on everything I have, for whatever that's worth.

And does anyone know anything that might be in the constitution about this? I'll do some searches, but thought I'd ask.
edit for sp

[Edited on 5-24-2009 by BajaNuts]

BMG - 5-23-2009 at 05:45 PM

I sent you a U2U before seeing your 2nd post. With the additional information you supplied, I would really recommend finding a local attorney. Not necessarily the one I mentioned, but hopefully you'll get some more recommendations.

Ejido land sales can really get complicated. Good luck!

Von - 5-23-2009 at 05:47 PM

Dam that sucks im sorry to hear that; i sure learn a lot from yo fellow nomads im so sorry :(:O:(:?::(:?:so confusing and sad.

What you need is a good lawyer and judge. Im pretty sure that will take care of it. Good luck i have an uncle in Ensenada whos a BIG shot im probably going to see him in Baja 500 ill ask him about your situation. See what he says.

ALL THE MONEY CHANGED HANDS???

longlegsinlapaz - 5-23-2009 at 06:19 PM

LIC. MIGUEL ANGEL IZQUIERDO Y VIAMONTE
NOTARIO PÚBLICO NÚMERO 12
AVENIDA REVOLUCIÓN No. 2315-A
ENTRE MANUEL PINEDA Y MANUEL MARQUEZ DE LEON
COLONIA CENTRO
LA PAZ, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR, MÉXICO.
C.P. 23000

Phone: 612-123-1844


Speaks very good English.

The transaction isn't legally complete until you have a completed fideicomiso registering the property in your name, you cannot own property without a fideicomiso.

I believe that the owner of ejido land has to have the title issued in his name prior to selling it even with ejido membership's approval. Until title for his piece of land is in his individual name, the land is held in joint ejido ownership. The fact that the head of the ejido authorized the sale should be in your favor, but I think they circumvented a few other legal steps.

I've heard of people who have bought more than 2,000 sq meters & have put the property into multiple fideicomisos...costly, but doable.

Of course you could scan your paperwork & send it to a local attorney for review, but I sincerely feel he'd rather talk with you in person to find out in detail what transpired during the other meeting where you left feeling the land was yours.

oladulce - 5-23-2009 at 08:26 PM

In your stack of papers is there one titled a "Derecho de Tanto"? Did they also give you a copy of the seller's "Titulo de Propiedad"?

As LLinLP said, a Titulo wouldn't have been issued in the seller's name unless the proper steps had been taken and the Agrarian reform office had approved. If you have one with the seller's name on it, you can breathe easier.

We had to ask specifically for these documents, they weren't offered to us as part of the usual paperwork exchange.

Unfortunately, the ejido jefe's thumbs-up won't do you much good.

I don't believe the notario is responsible for confirming the chain of title for you. His job is to oversee the transaction, interact with the bank , obtain the foreign minister's approval, confirm the ID's of the parties involved, and gather the avalou's and other documents you give him. A major responsibility of the Notario is to calculate and collect the taxes that are due as a result of the sale.

We assumed the notario was confirming the title on our first Mexico purchase too. Later we realized that he was not going down to the Registro Publico and pulling the big dusty books off the shelf to follow the chain of title for our security.

He'll register your finalized fide at the Registro Publico office and get the final stamps when it's done, but he doesn't perform any title research prior to the sale.

Ever since we've hired an attorney or someone familiar with the Reg. Publico office to trace the chain of title prior to purchasing. We obtained Title insurance on the last couple of lots because they were formerly ejido properties and we wanted the extra validation that all the proper steps had been taken.

Maybe you can hire Stewart or First American Title to perform the chain of title research for you to see where the hangup is. Even if you're not interested in the insurance at least they'll be accountable for their research.

From personal experience, I promise that it's possible to get a fideicomiso for >2000sq meters.

[Edited on 5-24-2009 by oladulce]

arrowhead - 5-23-2009 at 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative (sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy!


This tells me you have had your clock cleaned out by the seller and the Notario. Any Notario with an IQ above that of total marooon knows that Ejido's cannot tell anybody that a seller has the legal right to sell it. The property has to be removed from the Ejido by a long process, each step of which requires a vote by the entire EJido. The first step would be for the entire ejido to agree among themselves who owns what property, get a survey and issue a "Dominio" to the ejiditario. That means he owns that parcel but still cannot sell it to anyone outside the ejido. The next step would be to convert it to private property, which requires the consent of the ejido and the Agrarian Court. As said by others, unless there is a "Titulo" you cannot own the property. Even with a titulo, the sellers family still has a first right of refusal to buy back the property if you ever sell it.

With the seller now dead. I'd say the chances are less that 1 in 100 you will ever own that property.

CaboRon - 5-24-2009 at 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative (sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy!


This tells me you have had your clock cleaned out by the seller and the Notario. Any Notario with an IQ above that of total marooon knows that Ejido's cannot tell anybody that a seller has the legal right to sell it. The property has to be removed from the Ejido by a long process, each step of which requires a vote by the entire EJido. The first step would be for the entire ejido to agree among themselves who owns what property, get a survey and issue a "Dominio" to the ejiditario. That means he owns that parcel but still cannot sell it to anyone outside the ejido. The next step would be to convert it to private property, which requires the consent of the ejido and the Agrarian Court. As said by others, unless there is a "Titulo" you cannot own the property. Even with a titulo, the sellers family still has a first right of refusal to buy back the property if you ever sell it.

With the seller now dead. I'd say the chances are less that 1 in 100 you will ever own that property.


I am so very sad for you .....

This is an ever reappearing scenerio .....

Your only vague hope is to come down with a lot of money and hire the best attorney and buy the most influential judge that you can afford .....

I fear you have been had ....

Welcome to Mexico ......

So sorry,

CaboRon

Hang on BajaNuts I don't think things are that dismal.

oladulce - 5-24-2009 at 04:35 PM

First let me say that when you're in the US trying to handle things in Mexico, the lack of communication magnifies problems and next thing you know you're convinced there's a conspiracy and everybody's in on it. Go buy yourself some TUMs to ward off the ulcer and hang on a little longer.

95% of the time when we've thought we were screwed, it's because of one or all of the following:

1. Gov. permits and real estate transactions take a painfully long time.

2. The process the seller has to go thru to get the ejido's blessing takes a long time. Maybe the seller and ejido jefe said he had his title because it was in progress. Doubt that they were trying to screw you, in their minds he was the owner of the property and that little piece of paper will only confirm what they already know.

3. Even though the seller has died, no matter how far he had gotten with obtaining his escritura (title), if the ejido has already parceled out the lots and that lot was given to him, at least that step is out of the way. There are some very important steps that still have to be done that require the ejido's parcipitation but chances are one of his family members will be happy to pick up the ball if it means completing the sale of the property $$$. It may be a pain in the butt, but seems do-able.

4. I can't explain why you can't get any info out of the Notario, but I'd guess some of the steps haven't been completed or he's lacking important papers and he doesn't want to deal with it . The notarios will contact your fide bank and submit your foreign relations permit to Mexico city for approval, but it's not their job to do all the running around to gather all the other documents you need. Your old guy is probably sitting around waiting for you to send things to him. I haven't met one yet that will take the initiative to contact you when their missing some paperwork.

AT&T has a long distance plan called "Just call Mexico" or something like that, it's $5.00/month and calls to Baja are often less than what we pay for local toll calls. You will be on the phone alot if you want to see this thing thru.

Me, I'd switch Notarios (we've used Miguel Izquierdo also) and start fresh. Lic Izquierdo is the best we've worked with so far but even he gets very busy, doesn't respond to email questions, and can be hard to get ahold of when you're working long distance. But you can reach him by phone, and he will talk to you, and at least you know the jobs getting done right.

Whomever you choose, ask the new guy for a list of all the documents you need. To expedite things, even get the paperwork that's the seller's responsibility to obtain, such as the certificate of no leins.

Which brings me to the most important advice I can give you-
you need someone down there to keep on top of this for you. If the seller didn't have his title to the property yet, then you want an attorney who is familiar with and will oversee the Derecho de Tanto, the ejido meetings and monitor the voting process etc to be sure they follow the proper procedure.
But you also want a guy who will do the running around to drop off and pick up the paperwork or you'll come to a standstill.

If the seller had gotten his escritura then a big step is out of the way and whomever you hire should know how to keep the ball rolling and will do the running around and interface with the notario and other professionals for you, but they don't necessarily have to be an attorney. I don't have any glowing recommendations for this magic facilitator but I can suggest an english speaking attorney that we worked with briefly and several friends use extensively if you want to u2u me for his contact info. Maybe LongLegs has somebody she can recommend.

No doubt you're going to be spending some $$$ and this is going to take much longer than you expected, but based on the info you've given, yours doesn't sound any worse than many of the situations we've found ourselves in with Mexican real estate dealings. Somebody's sister-in-law had a baby or they needed a new transmission and couldn't get to town to sign a paper- all kinds of stuff will hold up the process. When you're trying to find out what's going on from long distance , things can look bleak but don't despair. The hard part is trying to track down the problem. Fixing it may require extra time and lots of money , but I wouldn't give up yet.

Let me put this in a frank response..

pavel - 5-24-2009 at 04:59 PM

You are screwed. Hiring a lawyer will do nothing but buy your new lawyers mistress some nice new gifts. Lick your wounds and buy one of the many available books on how to buy property in Mexico(the right way)
Start over and do it the right way. Many here will tell you to do this and do that but it is throwing good money after bad.

Even title insurance can't help those that have been swindled as title insurance is the latest scam in Mexico.

Cypress - 5-24-2009 at 05:22 PM

You just dig a little deeper in your wallet and toss some more money out there. Who knows? You might pay the right person. Or, you might not.:lol:

Osprey - 5-24-2009 at 05:54 PM

Cypress, when can we expect a positive, informative post from you? Why would you sit there at your computer, wait for the chance to say nothing, over and over and over and over and over. Oh, did I forget over. Do you travel Baja? Live in Baja? Are you giving us only your past memories of Baja? If so, thanks but you seem to add nothing significant, nothing refreshing, nothing original. Why do you post? 3650 messages from one who does not live or travel here. Some with more messages, just reliving the experience use the board to our delight. You are just a grumbler.

Once again....

pavel - 5-24-2009 at 06:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Cypress, when can we expect a positive, informative post from you? Why would you sit there at your computer, wait for the chance to say nothing, over and over and over and over and over. Oh, did I forget over. Do you travel Baja? Live in Baja? Are you giving us only your past memories of Baja? If so, thanks but you seem to add nothing significant, nothing refreshing, nothing original. Why do you post? 3650 messages from one who does not live or travel here. Some with more messages, just reliving the experience use the board to our delight. You are just a grumbler.



He has every right to say what he wants just as you do.Should he be quiet just because you do not like what he has to say..

Please tell us....

Paula - 5-24-2009 at 07:00 PM

BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on your thread.

Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father who had passed away a year or so before.:lol:Money had changed hands (NOT all of it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters. Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report?:biggrin: So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.

norte - 5-24-2009 at 07:10 PM

Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say 20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?
Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on your thread.

Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father who had passed away a year or so before.:lol:Money had changed hands (NOT all of it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters. Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report?:biggrin: So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.

Paula - 5-24-2009 at 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say 20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on your thread.

Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father who had passed away a year or so before.:lol:Money had changed hands (NOT all of it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters. Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report?:biggrin: So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.



Norte, I spent a lot of time writing what I hope is a helpful and honest post. The info contained therein has nothing to do with you, but I would hope before commenting and slamming me you would read carefully.
That was 7 HUNDRED dollars, not thousand. And yes, it was worth it. The guy we paid was the guy who made 4 or 5 round trips to talk with the bank and the notario to move things along. Not a tax, not a bribe, but payment for work done.
And I'm not offering advice to anyone here but BajaNuts. And really, it is not advice, as they have already bought. Just encouragement on a difficult situation.

norte - 5-24-2009 at 07:37 PM

Oh I am sorry. when posting on a public forum in this fasion, who are you adressing?\\\
Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say 20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on your thread.

Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father who had passed away a year or so before.:lol:Money had changed hands (NOT all of it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters. Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report?:biggrin: So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.



Norte, I spent a lot of time writing what I hope is a helpful and honest post. The info contained therein has nothing to do with you, but I would hope before commenting and slamming me you would read carefully.
That was 7 HUNDRED dollars, not thousand. And yes, it was worth it. The guy we paid was the guy who made 4 or 5 round trips to talk with the bank and the notario to move things along. Not a tax, not a bribe, but payment for work done.
And I'm not offering advice to anyone here but BajaNuts. And really, it is not advice, as they have already bought. Just encouragement on a difficult situation.

Paula - 5-24-2009 at 07:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Oh I am sorry. when posting on a public forum in this fasion, who are you adressing?\\\


Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say 20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on your thread.

Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father who had passed away a year or so before.:lol:Money had changed hands (NOT all of it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters. Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report?:biggrin: So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.



Norte, I spent a lot of time writing what I hope is a helpful and honest post. The info contained therein has nothing to do with you, but I would hope before commenting and slamming me you would read carefully.
That was 7 HUNDRED dollars, not thousand. And yes, it was worth it. The guy we paid was the guy who made 4 or 5 round trips to talk with the bank and the notario to move things along. Not a tax, not a bribe, but payment for work done.
And I'm not offering advice to anyone here but BajaNuts. And really, it is not advice, as they have already bought. Just encouragement on a difficult situation.



People who don't have their heads....

I'm sure you'll be able to fill in the rest.

longlegsinlapaz - 5-24-2009 at 07:51 PM

Paula, I understood your post! And BajaNuts will too!

Norte, if you personally had committed time & (I'm picking a hypothetical number out if the air)....lets say $25K USD equivalent, would you add another $1K to the pot to salvage your original investment? Or would you just call it a loss & walk away from the time & $$ you'd put into the deal at the time a problem became apparent?:?::?:

BigWooo - 5-24-2009 at 07:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say 20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?


Buying real estate in Mexico can be simple if you want to buy a small lot in an established community. But even the simple purchases can have complications, and one needs to have the resources to deal with it. If you are buying with no reserve cash for the unexpected, I would suggest waiting until you do.

Buying remote properties from Ejidos, especially those that are selling their land for the first time, can present added difficulty. Often, neither the Ejido members, nor the buyer have experience in how to obtain the proper documents to sell the land, and frequently neither do the real estate agents. There’s no book with step-by-step instructions on how to deal with every aspect of the purchase. The process is difficult, frustrating and expensive. In newly privatized land there’s nearly always some problem to deal with, especially if you’re one of the first buyers. When purchasing Ejido land I would strongly recommend a good attorney and consulting with a title insurance company before proceeding.

I believe you should anticipate spending an extra $7-$8,000.00. If everything goes well then you will have money in the bank, and a good start on paying for all the additional federal permits and studies you need to get before building anything :biggrin:.

These types of real estate purchases are not for the weak hearted. You have to be persistent, patient and be prepared to spend a lot of extra cash, but even after developing an ulcer, nervous twitch, sleep disorder, and grey hair, I think it was well worth it.:bounce:

norte - 5-24-2009 at 08:00 PM

Paula... don't get so bunched up... the last two posts said it all

longlegsinlapaz - 5-24-2009 at 08:00 PM

Well said BigWooo!:yes:

Paula - 5-24-2009 at 08:04 PM

Ditto, Big Wooo!

elizabeth - 5-24-2009 at 09:36 PM

BajaNuts

You have been given some good positive advice. Ignore the naysayers! I now have a fideicomiso on a piece of land in Loreto, formerly ejido, over 2000 square meters. It can be done. It took about 3 years, and would probably have taken longer if I didn't have a seller who stayed on top of all of the requirements. Yes, it was frustrating, but there are a lot of steps to privatize the sale of ejido land. BTW, the notario was Miguel Angel Izquierdo.

Hang in there...but keep up contact...given that you aren't there, you might think of hiring a lawyer familiar with ejido transfers.

Osprey - 5-25-2009 at 08:21 AM

If you follow Woos excellent suggestions also insist on a sample copy of the title policy in English, then ask the Title Co. rep. about the policy's restrictions and exclusions. Mexican title contracts are not your father's title policies.

CaboMagic - 5-25-2009 at 08:47 AM

Please add our words of encouragement to your support. Hope this works out swiftly for you. Keep focused on your dream .. they can and do come true.

BajaNuts - 5-25-2009 at 09:05 AM

Thanks, Paula, LongLegs, BMG, BigWooo, and Oladulche.

Great advice and thanks for the support.

We have hired a lady named Alba Walker who is with a company called The Paper Chase. She is the one who has dug up as much info as we have right now. In her recent email she said "Procuraduria agraria has locally started the paperwork to grant titles to land to all the ejido members, once this is done, paperwork will be sent to Mexico city for final approval." Supposedly, they expect the paperwork back by August.

I'm thinking we should have Alba meet with Notario Izquierdo, maybe do a phone conference while she is there and get someone else working on it.

Still have to get the fido figured out... everyone keeps saying you can't do a fido without title, can't get a title without a fido, can't do fido on >2000m, can't do a corporation without an address and utility bills, can't get an address without a corporation....:mad:

Anyway thanks for the input. It gives us some options to work with. Oh and did I mention that the person the seller willed their estate to is a minor?:(

elizabeth - 5-25-2009 at 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
Still have to get the fido figured out... everyone keeps saying you can't do a fido without title, can't get a title without a fido, can't do fido on >2000m, can't do a corporation without an address and utility bills, can't get an address without a corporation....:mad:

:(


Take a deep breath...get a prescription for ativan if necessary (just joking)...but, you have hired someone who is obviously staying on top of things...so stop listening to "everyone says". Get your information from her, and your advice from those who have gone down that path. The privatization of ejido property is a relatively new thing and not everyone is very familiar with the process.

You will have moments of near insanity and doubt along the way...like when you hear that a document requires the ejido secretary's signature, but hasn't been done because he/she is in Timbuktu visiting relatives and no one knows when he/she will be returning! Deep breath or ativan time!

Don't worry about the fideicomiso at this point...you are a ways away from it. As I said in my first post...it took 3 years for me with a seller who was on top of it. I know of other people who have been in the process even longer, and are still hanging in there. My property is over 2000 square meters...4 separate parcels merged into one...one fideicomiso. With a large parcel you will be required to complete a specific amount of development within a defined time period depending upon the size of the property. Bottom line is you can get a fideicomiso with property over 2000 square meters.

You are going to need a lot of patience...good practice for actually living in Baja! Hang in there and don't worry about anything until it's time to worry!

BajaNuts - 5-25-2009 at 11:15 AM

thanks elizabeth-

We only recently got Alba involved, and she is the one who found out all this information. I think that with her help and the other 2 referals we have for La Paz, we will get some progress.
A~

capt. mike - 5-26-2009 at 05:54 AM

why not get title insurance? it is becoming very prominent in Mexican RE transactions.
personally i wouldn't buy anything i couldn't get a title policy on.

see who has oversight on Notarios and start the process. it will be long and expensive but what else can you do?

gnukid - 5-26-2009 at 09:31 AM

Just a clarification it appears the Notario didn't screw up here. A notario can only process a completed deal and make a scritoro. This deal is typical of ejido titling and requires leg work from someone with ejido experience. So it appears no one screwed up, it just is an example of circumstances to be understood and pursued.

BajaNuts - 5-26-2009 at 10:43 PM

yes gnukid, it is appearing that way.

The impression is that notario/a's are "gods" and their blessing of a transaction is all powerful.

When the transaction was done and I was sitting in the Notario's office, everyone smiled and shook hands and said "congratulations on your new property", just finish your corporation (totaly other story, but that was the plan) and you're done.

So that's why we are surprised to learn the seller did not have actual title in hand. Hence the question of what happens if the notario makes a mistake. I definetely wish I had known about BajaNomads back then...............

[Edited on 5-27-2009 by BajaNuts]

foonman - 6-23-2009 at 03:53 PM

I am currently getting a fideicomiso on a property over 2000 Sq Meters.

You have to pledge to spend $250,000 on improvements to get the fideicomiso.

BajaNuts - 6-23-2009 at 04:38 PM

I'm sure this is online somewhere, but is that $250,000 pesos or US$?

comitan - 6-23-2009 at 05:03 PM

I can answer that its the investment clause in the Fido over 2000 sq.mts and its $250,000 US dollars and the property has to be upgraded within a certain time.

roamingthroughbaja - 6-24-2009 at 10:33 AM

Be careful of putting title in the name of a corporation if it is not actually going to be a business or make any $$ We just finished the process of getting our FM2's, and while we were in the Immigration office chatting with the guys, they told us that they were now reviewing all of the corporations where no income had been declared or taxes paid in the previous tax years. These corporations would be investigated and closed down if they couldn't show that they were contributing to the economy by providing jobs, paying taxes, etc.

This will mean that folks will have to get fidei's for their property.

BajaNuts - 6-24-2009 at 02:54 PM

thanks for the heads up 'roaming,

another catch22, so what's a person to do with a large lot?

You have to have a corporation for more than 2000m or spend $250k and now the corporation option is going away, are they gonna start checking on improvements?

I suppose you could claim $100 income a year and pay taxes on that to keep your name off the "hot list". Or divide up your lot into smaller parcels and then get fidei's for all of them. more $ more $ more$

CaboRon - 6-25-2009 at 03:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
thanks for the heads up 'roaming,

another catch22, so what's a person to do with a large lot?

You have to have a corporation for more than 2000m or spend $250k and now the corporation option is going away, are they gonna start checking on improvements?

I suppose you could claim $100 income a year and pay taxes on that to keep your name off the "hot list". Or divide up your lot into smaller parcels and then get fidei's for all of them. more $ more $ more$


My friends who maintain mexican corporations have an accountent who makes monthly reports and pays monthly taxes ....

They also have on line reporting requirements with mexican social security and are continuely reporting the hireing of labor .....

It seems to be a complicated process ....

This is NOT a yearly thing ....

[Edited on 6-25-2009 by CaboRon]

k-rico - 6-25-2009 at 06:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
why not get title insurance? it is becoming very prominent in Mexican RE transactions.
personally i wouldn't buy anything i couldn't get a title policy on.

see who has oversight on Notarios and start the process. it will be long and expensive but what else can you do?


I mentioned title insurance to the attorney I hired when buying my house and he chuckled and said I'd spend all my money sueing the title insurance company when they didn't pay the claim. That was his opinion and he's a sharp young guy that seems to me to be very on top of things.

To the original poster, U2U me if you want his name. He's in Tijuana, bilingual, and I think a very knowledgeable guy. He's also very tech savvy, email, Skype, cell phone, etc. so he's easy to communicate with. Excellent English (for a second language). He could review your situation and offer advice.

I'm communicating with him now on another matter and am impressed with his cut on things. He's recently bumped up his fees, $150/hour, which is what we're discussing now. He also knows US real estate practices which is handy because he can explain things from my point of reference. For example he recently explained to me that in Mexico, zoning regulations are called "use of soil" regulations and they certainly exist. So he says.

Let me know, I can do the original inquiry on your behalf and see what he says.

[Edited on 6-25-2009 by k-rico]

roamingthroughbaja - 6-25-2009 at 06:22 AM

Re the $250,000 investment, some people have told me that no one ever checks, but I'd be a little nervous about that. Someone else who is doing a big development on the Pacific told me that it includes the purchase of the lot, so who knows. Might be worth following up. Does anyone have any more solid info?

k-rico - 6-25-2009 at 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by roamingthroughbaja
Re the $250,000 investment, some people have told me that no one ever checks, but I'd be a little nervous about that. Someone else who is doing a big development on the Pacific told me that it includes the purchase of the lot, so who knows. Might be worth following up. Does anyone have any more solid info?


Just a thought - The person who wants your property cheap and knows you have ignored the improvement clause will check. As far as whether or not it includes the cost of the land - I've always understood it to be an "improvement" clause - permanent structures. I could be mixing US and Mexican laws, English and Spanish words - get a lawyer.



[Edited on 6-25-2009 by k-rico]

BajaNuts - 6-25-2009 at 10:17 AM

Thanks, k-rico, I have a reference for a lawyer in La Paz, I'm going to try him first as he is in the area of our property.
bn1