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BajaNuts
Super Nomad
Posts: 1085
Registered: 5-11-2008
Location: eastern WA, the DRY side
Member Is Offline
Mood: no worry, no hurry....it's all good!
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What happens if a notario messes up on a transaction?
It looks like the seller of the property we bought last year didn't have a clear, processed title on the land. Isn't it the responsibility of the
notario to make sure all of that is in order before signing off on the transaction?
If the notario did something wrong or screwed up somehow, what recourse do we have against the notario? We have a feeling he knows he screwed up
because he refused to meet a representative we asked to go talk to him and find out what's going on.
We used one of the oldest notario firms in La Paz. If their reputations are supposed to be above reproach, what happens if they screw up?
I know, same old story......
We used a larger real estate firm, 2 agents were involved, their lawyer, the translator, and what was supposed to be the best notario in La Paz.
(The titles are in process, but to complicate matters worse, the seller is now dead!)
Anyway, what do you think about the notario?
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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Jeeeeez!! You guys gotta start hanging with a better class of people...maybe some who are honest & ethical!
That aside, which Notario? U2U if you want, but I personally believe other should know who to avoid.
You are correct in the assumption that the Notario is responsible for going to Catastro & getting documents proving taxes are paid up, title has
been issued, is clear & without liens. There is a cost for these documents & that cost is built into the overall charges for the fideicomiso
& these documents become part of the fideiocmiso.
First of all what leads you to believe there is a problem? "The titles are in process, but to complicate matters worse, the seller is now
dead!" tells me that you haven't yet gone to the Notario, met with the seller to finalize, sign the closing documents & both sign
"The BIG BOOK"?? Correct?
I'd personally go talk with the Notario when you're down here. If you need a translator, you can request the Dept. of Tourism certified translator at
no cost. Take him, find out exactly what the situation is, he'll then recommend how best to proceed, i.e., PROFECO, Mediation, Ministario Publico,
etc. Or he might be able to get the Notario to step up to the plate & initiate a process to make things right; if that's possible. The seller's
death really does open a can of ugly worms if the transaction had to be canceled, as property reverts to family here & the chance of you getting
your down payment back would be virtually non-existent! What you MAY have in your favor is if the family wants/needs $, they MAY honor the
original seller's agreement with you because the remaining money due at closing would now go directly to them. Or they could jack you around &
tell you the cost of the land has now gone up!
To be honest, from the information you provided, the odds aren't in your favor for a positive outcome.
[Edited on 5-25-2009 by longlegsinlapaz]
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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I think you can have him shot
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNuts
What happens if a notario messes up on a transaction? |
Really. I think it's written in the constitution.
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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Do you believe in Omens?
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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BajaNuts
Super Nomad
Posts: 1085
Registered: 5-11-2008
Location: eastern WA, the DRY side
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Mood: no worry, no hurry....it's all good!
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As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative
(sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the
notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy!
As I said, many people were involved in the transaction, if something wasn't right, I would have thought someone would have said something. Guess
not...
Once we started the process for fidecomiso, all this other stuff started coming up. First of all, can't do the fido cuz the lot is over 2000sm, then
they kept saying they were waiting for title. We finally got someone to help us and dig up all this info including the fact the seller is dead. She
tried to talk to the notario but he wouldn't see her.
I'm wondering if I could send/email copies of all my documents to another notario or attorney and have them look them over for anything not right. I
got all the official seals on everything I have, for whatever that's worth.
And does anyone know anything that might be in the constitution about this? I'll do some searches, but thought I'd ask.
edit for sp
[Edited on 5-24-2009 by BajaNuts]
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BMG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1776
Registered: 6-10-2007
Location: La Paz / Bahia Asunci�n / Away from home
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I sent you a U2U before seeing your 2nd post. With the additional information you supplied, I would really recommend finding a local attorney. Not
necessarily the one I mentioned, but hopefully you'll get some more recommendations.
Ejido land sales can really get complicated. Good luck!
I think the world is run by C- students.
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Von
Senior Nomad
Posts: 961
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Poway-Rosarito
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Mood: getting ready!
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Dam that sucks im sorry to hear that; i sure learn a lot from yo fellow nomads im so sorry    so confusing and sad.
What you need is a good lawyer and judge. Im pretty sure that will take care of it. Good luck i have an uncle in Ensenada whos a BIG shot im
probably going to see him in Baja 500 ill ask him about your situation. See what he says.
READY SET.....................
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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ALL THE MONEY CHANGED HANDS???
LIC. MIGUEL ANGEL IZQUIERDO Y VIAMONTE
NOTARIO PÚBLICO NÚMERO 12
AVENIDA REVOLUCIÓN No. 2315-A
ENTRE MANUEL PINEDA Y MANUEL MARQUEZ DE LEON
COLONIA CENTRO
LA PAZ, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR, MÉXICO.
C.P. 23000
Phone: 612-123-1844
Speaks very good English.
The transaction isn't legally complete until you have a completed fideicomiso registering the property in your name, you cannot own property without a
fideicomiso.
I believe that the owner of ejido land has to have the title issued in his name prior to selling it even with ejido membership's approval. Until
title for his piece of land is in his individual name, the land is held in joint ejido ownership. The fact that the head of the ejido authorized the
sale should be in your favor, but I think they circumvented a few other legal steps.
I've heard of people who have bought more than 2,000 sq meters & have put the property into multiple fideicomisos...costly, but doable.
Of course you could scan your paperwork & send it to a local attorney for review, but I sincerely feel he'd rather talk with you in person to find
out in detail what transpired during the other meeting where you left feeling the land was yours.
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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In your stack of papers is there one titled a "Derecho de Tanto"? Did they also give you a copy of the seller's "Titulo de Propiedad"?
As LLinLP said, a Titulo wouldn't have been issued in the seller's name unless the proper steps had been taken and the Agrarian reform office had
approved. If you have one with the seller's name on it, you can breathe easier.
We had to ask specifically for these documents, they weren't offered to us as part of the usual paperwork exchange.
Unfortunately, the ejido jefe's thumbs-up won't do you much good.
I don't believe the notario is responsible for confirming the chain of title for you. His job is to oversee the transaction, interact with the bank ,
obtain the foreign minister's approval, confirm the ID's of the parties involved, and gather the avalou's and other documents you give him. A major
responsibility of the Notario is to calculate and collect the taxes that are due as a result of the sale.
We assumed the notario was confirming the title on our first Mexico purchase too. Later we realized that he was not going down to the Registro
Publico and pulling the big dusty books off the shelf to follow the chain of title for our security.
He'll register your finalized fide at the Registro Publico office and get the final stamps when it's done, but he doesn't perform any title research
prior to the sale.
Ever since we've hired an attorney or someone familiar with the Reg. Publico office to trace the chain of title prior to purchasing. We obtained
Title insurance on the last couple of lots because they were formerly ejido properties and we wanted the extra validation that all the proper steps
had been taken.
Maybe you can hire Stewart or First American Title to perform the chain of title research for you to see where the hangup is. Even if you're not
interested in the insurance at least they'll be accountable for their research.
From personal experience, I promise that it's possible to get a fideicomiso for >2000sq meters.
[Edited on 5-24-2009 by oladulce]
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arrowhead
Banned
Posts: 912
Registered: 5-5-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNuts
As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative
(sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the
notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy! |
This tells me you have had your clock cleaned out by the seller and the Notario. Any Notario with an IQ above that of total marooon knows that Ejido's
cannot tell anybody that a seller has the legal right to sell it. The property has to be removed from the Ejido by a long process, each step of which
requires a vote by the entire EJido. The first step would be for the entire ejido to agree among themselves who owns what property, get a survey and
issue a "Dominio" to the ejiditario. That means he owns that parcel but still cannot sell it to anyone outside the ejido. The next step would be to
convert it to private property, which requires the consent of the ejido and the Agrarian Court. As said by others, unless there is a "Titulo" you
cannot own the property. Even with a titulo, the sellers family still has a first right of refusal to buy back the property if you ever sell it.
With the seller now dead. I'd say the chances are less that 1 in 100 you will ever own that property.
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3401
Registered: 3-24-2007
Location: The Valley of the Moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Peacefull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arrowhead
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNuts
As far as we knew the transaction was complete. We sat down with Notario #2, 2 real estate agents, the seller, the seller's Ejido representative
(sheriff?)....who signed a paper along with the seller stating the land was indeed his property and he had the legal right to sell it....and all the
notario personel. Money changed hands. Everyone was happy! |
This tells me you have had your clock cleaned out by the seller and the Notario. Any Notario with an IQ above that of total marooon knows that Ejido's
cannot tell anybody that a seller has the legal right to sell it. The property has to be removed from the Ejido by a long process, each step of which
requires a vote by the entire EJido. The first step would be for the entire ejido to agree among themselves who owns what property, get a survey and
issue a "Dominio" to the ejiditario. That means he owns that parcel but still cannot sell it to anyone outside the ejido. The next step would be to
convert it to private property, which requires the consent of the ejido and the Agrarian Court. As said by others, unless there is a "Titulo" you
cannot own the property. Even with a titulo, the sellers family still has a first right of refusal to buy back the property if you ever sell it.
With the seller now dead. I'd say the chances are less that 1 in 100 you will ever own that property. |
I am so very sad for you .....
This is an ever reappearing scenerio .....
Your only vague hope is to come down with a lot of money and hire the best attorney and buy the most influential judge that you can afford .....
I fear you have been had ....
Welcome to Mexico ......
So sorry,
CaboRon
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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Hang on BajaNuts I don't think things are that dismal.
First let me say that when you're in the US trying to handle things in Mexico, the lack of communication magnifies problems and next thing you know
you're convinced there's a conspiracy and everybody's in on it. Go buy yourself some TUMs to ward off the ulcer and hang on a little longer.
95% of the time when we've thought we were screwed, it's because of one or all of the following:
1. Gov. permits and real estate transactions take a painfully long time.
2. The process the seller has to go thru to get the ejido's blessing takes a long time. Maybe the seller and ejido jefe said he had his title because
it was in progress. Doubt that they were trying to screw you, in their minds he was the owner of the property and that little piece of paper will only
confirm what they already know.
3. Even though the seller has died, no matter how far he had gotten with obtaining his escritura (title), if the ejido has already parceled out the
lots and that lot was given to him, at least that step is out of the way. There are some very important steps that still have to be done that require
the ejido's parcipitation but chances are one of his family members will be happy to pick up the ball if it means completing the sale of the property
$$$. It may be a pain in the butt, but seems do-able.
4. I can't explain why you can't get any info out of the Notario, but I'd guess some of the steps haven't been completed or he's lacking important
papers and he doesn't want to deal with it . The notarios will contact your fide bank and submit your foreign relations permit to Mexico city for
approval, but it's not their job to do all the running around to gather all the other documents you need. Your old guy is probably sitting around
waiting for you to send things to him. I haven't met one yet that will take the initiative to contact you when their missing some paperwork.
AT&T has a long distance plan called "Just call Mexico" or something like that, it's $5.00/month and calls to Baja are often less than what we pay
for local toll calls. You will be on the phone alot if you want to see this thing thru.
Me, I'd switch Notarios (we've used Miguel Izquierdo also) and start fresh. Lic Izquierdo is the best we've worked with so far but even he gets very
busy, doesn't respond to email questions, and can be hard to get ahold of when you're working long distance. But you can reach him by phone, and he
will talk to you, and at least you know the jobs getting done right.
Whomever you choose, ask the new guy for a list of all the documents you need. To expedite things, even get the paperwork that's the seller's
responsibility to obtain, such as the certificate of no leins.
Which brings me to the most important advice I can give you-
you need someone down there to keep on top of this for you. If the seller didn't have his title to the property yet, then you want an attorney who is
familiar with and will oversee the Derecho de Tanto, the ejido meetings and monitor the voting process etc to be sure they follow the proper
procedure.
But you also want a guy who will do the running around to drop off and pick up the paperwork or you'll come to a standstill.
If the seller had gotten his escritura then a big step is out of the way and whomever you hire should know how to keep the ball rolling and will do
the running around and interface with the notario and other professionals for you, but they don't necessarily have to be an attorney. I don't have
any glowing recommendations for this magic facilitator but I can suggest an english speaking attorney that we worked with briefly and several friends
use extensively if you want to u2u me for his contact info. Maybe LongLegs has somebody she can recommend.
No doubt you're going to be spending some $$$ and this is going to take much longer than you expected, but based on the info you've given, yours
doesn't sound any worse than many of the situations we've found ourselves in with Mexican real estate dealings. Somebody's sister-in-law had a baby or
they needed a new transmission and couldn't get to town to sign a paper- all kinds of stuff will hold up the process. When you're trying to find out
what's going on from long distance , things can look bleak but don't despair. The hard part is trying to track down the problem. Fixing it may require
extra time and lots of money , but I wouldn't give up yet.
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pavel
Banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 5-23-2009
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
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Let me put this in a frank response..
You are screwed. Hiring a lawyer will do nothing but buy your new lawyers mistress some nice new gifts. Lick your wounds and buy one of the many
available books on how to buy property in Mexico(the right way)
Start over and do it the right way. Many here will tell you to do this and do that but it is throwing good money after bad.
Even title insurance can't help those that have been swindled as title insurance is the latest scam in Mexico.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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You just dig a little deeper in your wallet and toss some more money out there. Who knows? You might pay the right person. Or, you might not.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Cypress, when can we expect a positive, informative post from you? Why would you sit there at your computer, wait for the chance to say nothing, over
and over and over and over and over. Oh, did I forget over. Do you travel Baja? Live in Baja? Are you giving us only your past memories of Baja? If
so, thanks but you seem to add nothing significant, nothing refreshing, nothing original. Why do you post? 3650 messages from one who does not live or
travel here. Some with more messages, just reliving the experience use the board to our delight. You are just a grumbler.
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pavel
Banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 5-23-2009
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
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Once again....
| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Cypress, when can we expect a positive, informative post from you? Why would you sit there at your computer, wait for the chance to say nothing, over
and over and over and over and over. Oh, did I forget over. Do you travel Baja? Live in Baja? Are you giving us only your past memories of Baja? If
so, thanks but you seem to add nothing significant, nothing refreshing, nothing original. Why do you post? 3650 messages from one who does not live or
travel here. Some with more messages, just reliving the experience use the board to our delight. You are just a grumbler. |
He has every right to say what he wants just as you do.Should he be quiet just because you do not like what he has to say..
Please tell us....
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on
your thread.
Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his
secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father
who had passed away a year or so before.Money had changed hands (NOT all of
it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters.
Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd
paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in
things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are
usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report? So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely
that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time.
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norte
Super Nomad
Posts: 1163
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline
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Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say
20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on
your thread.
Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his
secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father
who had passed away a year or so before.Money had changed hands (NOT all of
it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters.
Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd
paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in
things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are
usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report? So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely
that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time. |
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say
20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on
your thread.
Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his
secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father
who had passed away a year or so before.Money had changed hands (NOT all of
it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters.
Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd
paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in
things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are
usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report? So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely
that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time. |
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Norte, I spent a lot of time writing what I hope is a helpful and honest post. The info contained therein has nothing to do with you, but I would
hope before commenting and slamming me you would read carefully.
That was 7 HUNDRED dollars, not thousand. And yes, it was worth it. The guy we paid was the guy who made 4 or 5 round trips to talk with the bank
and the notario to move things along. Not a tax, not a bribe, but payment for work done.
And I'm not offering advice to anyone here but BajaNuts. And really, it is not advice, as they have already bought. Just encouragement on a
difficult situation.
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norte
Super Nomad
Posts: 1163
Registered: 10-8-2008
Member Is Offline
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Oh I am sorry. when posting on a public forum in this fasion, who are you adressing?\\\
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
| Quote: | Originally posted by norte
Paula. Geeze not everyone wants to spend 7-8 thousand dollars to make everything OK. Are you advising people who buy in Baja to hold back. let's say
20% to buy their way out later? kinda like closing costs. Is this just a Northern (gringo) tax? or does eceryone pay it?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
BajaNuts, Oladulce and Longlegs have good advice for you. Hang in there, and don't worry about the people who make non-specific negative comments on
your thread.
Our deal in Loreto was going to be easy and quick, but when we went-- buyers, sellers, and agent/building contractor-- to notario #8 in La Paz his
secretary realized immediately that the name on the title was not that of the sellers. Neither Claudia nor Maria could pass for Hector, their father
who had passed away a year or so before.Money had changed hands (NOT all of
it!!) and we were unable to stay in Loreto to monitor things. A year went by with no progress while the title was being transfered to the sisters.
Everyone involved told us when we would call to be patient, it would be fine. After about a year we brought in a new person (see Oladulce's 3rd
paragraph from the bottom of her last post) at our agent/contractors suggestion. He cost an extra 7 or 8 hundred dollars, and after he stepped in
things moved quickly, Don flew down to sign the book, and all was well.
While bad things can happen here, most people are honest and mean no harm. Those mysterious things that take so long, and the lack of information are
usually just "cultural differences". Why would the notario spend time on a meeting when there is nothing new to report? So come down when you can, try to move things along, and it is very likely
that everything will be fine-- on Mexican time. |
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Norte, I spent a lot of time writing what I hope is a helpful and honest post. The info contained therein has nothing to do with you, but I would
hope before commenting and slamming me you would read carefully.
That was 7 HUNDRED dollars, not thousand. And yes, it was worth it. The guy we paid was the guy who made 4 or 5 round trips to talk with the bank
and the notario to move things along. Not a tax, not a bribe, but payment for work done.
And I'm not offering advice to anyone here but BajaNuts. And really, it is not advice, as they have already bought. Just encouragement on a
difficult situation. |
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