BajaNomad - Mitt Romney's cousin kidnapped in Mexico

Mitt Romney's cousin kidnapped in Mexico

arrowhead - 6-16-2009 at 10:53 PM

Meredith Romney, the LDS leader in Chihuahua, was kidnapped today by masked gunmen. Meredith is a cousin of Mitt Romney, the former Republican candidate for the U.S. presidency in the 2008 elections.

thebajarunner - 6-17-2009 at 08:48 AM

Had not heard that news, but there is a strong Baja connection...

Some of the original Mormon "multi-family" folks from Chihuahua are now living just over the hill from San Vicente.

They have a little colony there, not sure if the spousal ratios are in proper proportion, but they are living there.

Maybe now we'll find out what that 'magic underware' thing is all about

Dave - 6-17-2009 at 09:05 AM

Or not. :rolleyes:

CaboRon - 6-17-2009 at 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Or not. :rolleyes:

Temple garment
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Temple garment circa 1879 (GSR 1879).In some denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement, the temple garment (also referred to as garments, or Mormon underwear)[1] is worn as a religious vesture beneath the clothing of those who have taken part in the Endowment ceremony. Garments are worn both day and night and are required for any previously endowed adult to enter a church temple.[2] The undergarments are viewed as a symbolic reminder of the sacred covenants made in temple ceremonies, and are viewed as an either symbolic or literal source of protection from the evils of the world.[3]

The garment is given as part of the washing and anointing portion of the endowment. Today, the temple garment is worn primarily by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and by members of some Mormon fundamentalist churches. Adherents consider them to be sacred and some may be offended by public discussion of the garment. Anti-Mormon activists have occasionally publicly displayed or defaced temple garments to show their opposition to the LDS Church.[4]

Contents [hide]
1 19th century garments and original symbolism
2 Post-19th century modifications by the LDS Church
3 LDS Church teachings on use
4 Purpose
5 Latter-day Saint views as to sacredness
6 See also
7 References
8 Notes
9 External links

[edit] 19th century garments and original symbolism
In the 19th century, the temple garment was a one-piece undergarment extending to the ankles and the wrists, resembling a union suit, with an open crotch and a collar. It was made of unbleached cotton, and was held together with ties in a double knot. The garment had four marks that were snipped into the cloth as part of the original Nauvoo Endowment ceremony.[5] These marks were a reverse-L-shaped symbol on the right breast, a V-shaped symbol on the left breast, and horizontal marks at the navel and over the right knee. These cuts were later replaced by embroidered symbols. According to generally-accepted Mormon doctrine, the marks in the garments are sacred symbols.[6] One proposed element of the symbolism, according to early Mormon leaders, was a link to the Square and Compasses, the symbols of freemasonry,[7] to which Joseph Smith, Jr. had been initiated about seven weeks prior to his introduction of the Endowment ceremony.[8] Thus, the V-shaped symbol on the left breast was referred to as "The Compasses", while the reverse-L-shaped symbol on the right breast was referred to by early church leaders as "The Square".[9] According to an explanation by LDS Church President John Taylor in 1883, the "Square" represents "the justice and fairness of our Heavenly Father, that we will receive all the good that is coming to us or all that we earn, on a square deal", and the "Compasses" represents "the North Star".[10] In addition to the Square and Compasses, Taylor described the other symbols as follows: the collar represented the idea that the Lord's "yoke is easy and [his] burden is light", or the "Crown of the Priesthood"; the double-knotted strings represented "the Trinity" and "the marriage covenant"; the navel mark represents "strength in the navel and marrow in the bones"; and the knee mark represents "that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".[11]

An alternative explanation was given in 1936 by then-LDS Church apostle David O. McKay, whose explanation was incorporated into the LDS Church's 20th-century version of the Endowment ceremony.[12] According to McKay's explanation of the ceremony, the "mark of the Compass" represents "an undeviating course leading to eternal life; a constant reminder that desires, appetites, and passions are to be kept within the bounds the Lord has set; and that all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole"; the "mark of the Square" represents "exactness and honor" in keeping the commandments and covenants of God; the navel mark represents "the need of constant nourishment to body and spirit"; and the "knee mark" represents "that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ".[13] Unlike Taylor, McKay did not describe the symbolism of the collar or the tie-strings because those elements of the garment had been eliminated in 1922.[14]

[edit] Post-19th century modifications by the LDS Church

Post-1979 two-piece temple garments end just above the knee for both sexes. Women's garment have a rounded or sweetheart neckline with cap sleeves. Male tops are available in tee-shirt styles.[15]For several decades, the original 19th-century garment pattern, which had become standardized in the 1840s, was understood within Mormon doctrine as being unalterable. In 1906, LDS Church President Joseph F. Smith characterized as a "greivous sin" any attempt, in the name of changing fashion trends, to modify the 1840s garment pattern, which he characterized as "sacred, unchanged, and unaltered from the very pattern in which God gave them."[16] However, while the original pattern of the garment is still in use by some Mormon fundamentalists, over the years, the LDS Church has modernized the original pattern, which is no longer in use.

In 1923, a letter from LDS Church President Heber J. Grant to stake and temple presidents, stated that after careful and prayerful consideration it was unanimously decided by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, that the following modifications would be permitted to the garments: sleeve to elbow, leg just below knee, buttons instead of strings, collar eliminated, crotch closed.[17] Other changes were made after 1923 which shortened the sleeves and legs more and eliminated buttons.

In the 1930s, the LDS Church built Beehive Clothing Mills which manufactured and sold the garments leading to a more standardized design. During this time women's garments were one-piece designs that ended just above the knees and had a cap sleeve. In 1970s, the first two-piece garment became available and Mormons generally accepted the change with enthusiasm.[18] Today garments are made in both styles with a variety of different fabrics. Feminine styles are sold with either a rounded or a sweetheart neckline with cap sleeves. Sweetheart necklines usually follow the line of the bra, which is worn over the garment. There are also two styles of necklines for men. Endowed church members can purchase garments produced by Beehive at distribution centers worldwide. Garments can also be ordered through the mail. They are sold at a moderate price that is assumed to be near cost.[19] In order to purchase temple garments, a valid temple recommend (or its serial bar code number) must be presented.[citation needed]

In 1893, the church expressed an official preference for the color white, and since then they are white by default. However, desert sand-colored garments may be purchased for military use, and members may submit regulation military T-shirts of any color to the church for custom addition of the symbolic markings.[20]

[edit] LDS Church teachings on use
The LDS Church instructs its members who have been endowed to wear temple garments during the day and during the night.[21] Members are told that they should not partially or completely remove the garment to participate in activities that can "reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath the clothing".[21] When necessary, the garment may be temporarily removed, but members are told that after the activity "they should put it back on as soon as possible."[21] Swimming is given as an example of an activity that would justify removal of the garment.[21]

Garment wearers are also instructed that they should not adjust the garment or wear it in a way that would accommodate the wearing of what the church considers to be immodest clothing[21] (which includes uncovering areas of the body that would normally be covered by the garment, such as the shoulders and lower thighs). Members are instructed to keep garments clean and mended and to refrain from displaying it or exposing it to the view of others who may not understand its significance.[21] Prior to the disposal of old garments, members are instructed to cut out the markings on them.[1][22] After the marks are removed, "the fabric is not considered sacred" and the garment fabric may be cut up and discarded or used for other purposes.[1][22]

[edit] Purpose
According to the LDS Church, the wearing of temple garments serves a number of purposes. First, the garment provides the wearer with "a constant reminder" of the covenants made in the temple. Second, the garment "provides protection against temptation and evil". Finally, wearing the garment is "an outward expression of an inward commitment" to follow Jesus Christ.[21] General authority Carlos E. Asay adds that the garment "strengthens the wearer to resist temptation, fend off evil influences, and stand firmly for the right."[23]

The nature of the protection believed to be afforded by temple garments is ambiguous and varies between adherents.[24] Researchers who interviewed a sample of Latter-day Saints who wear the temple garment reported that virtually all wearers expressed a belief that wearing the garment provided "spiritual protection" and encouraged them to keep their covenants.[24] Some of those interviewed "asserted that the garment also provided physical protection, while others seemed less certain of any physical aspect to protection."[24] In Mormon folklore, tales are told of Latter-day Saints who credit their temple garments with helping them survive car wrecks, fires, and natural disasters.[1]

[edit] Latter-day Saint views as to sacredness
To members of the LDS Church, the temple garment represents the sacred and personal aspects of their relationship with God. Indeed, in the view of former Church President Joseph F. Smith, the garment was to be held as "the most sacred of all things in the world, next to their own virtue, next to their own purity of life".[25] For this reason, Church leaders discourage members from discussing the garment in a casual or disrespectful manner.[citation needed] Some church leaders have compared the garment to the clerical vestments worn by clergy of other churches.[26][27] Display of the garment is viewed by most members of LDS Church as extremely inappropriate and offensive.

Church leaders have publicly discussed the above principles and beliefs in general terms since the mid-1840s. However, because of the sacredness surrounding temple rites and the garment to many Latter-day Saints, some people have utilized it as a source of humor and parody.[1] People who have sold garments on internet auction sites have been criticized by some LDS Church members.[28]

During the October 2003 General Conference of the Church, some anti-Mormon demonstrators outside the LDS Conference Center reportedly spat and stomped on garments in view of those attending the conference. A scuffle broke out between a protester and two members of the church who attempted to take the garments from him.[29] To avoid a repeat of the conflict, the municipality of Salt Lake City planned stronger enforcement of fighting words and hate speech laws for the April 2004 Conference in Salt Lake City with new protest buffer zones.[30]

If you want to see the pictures go directly to the wikepedia entry ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

[Edited on 6-17-2009 by CaboRon]

tripledigitken - 6-17-2009 at 09:13 AM

dead thread walking....................... :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
resembling a union suit, with an open crotch

I think this is the garment that gave Victoria's Secret a foothold in the industry.

It ain't about feet

Dave - 6-17-2009 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I think this is the garment that gave Victoria's Secret a foothold in the industry.

I've been to Victoria's. Didn't see a shoe department. :rolleyes:

Thanks, CaboRon. Way more info than I needed.

Nah...

Dave - 6-17-2009 at 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
dead thread walking....................... :rolleyes:

We'll do our best.

Another thread straight to the dumper

thebajarunner - 6-17-2009 at 09:45 AM

Sure does not take long these days.

sigh......

Woooosh - 6-17-2009 at 09:50 AM

Magic underwear? Makes the Scientologists almost appear normal...

BajaDove - 6-17-2009 at 09:53 AM

How did a kidnapped lady turn into an underwear commercial? Isn't this where you grab the thread and run for the political ramifications? Or is it formifations?

Woooosh - 6-17-2009 at 09:55 AM

It's the new normal here. Happens with every one of my posts too.

Maybe people don't feel sorry for Mormom missionaries. And how many hundreds of cousins does a polygamist Mormom missinonary have anyhow?

[Edited on 6-17-2009 by Woooosh]

CaboRon - 6-17-2009 at 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Magic underwear? Makes the Scientologists almost appear normal...

Bajahowodd - 6-17-2009 at 10:08 AM

Whew! I caught this first post last night and resisted the temptation to get the ball rolling. Glad I did. You guys didn't need any help. BTW, Meredith is a man.

capt. mike - 6-17-2009 at 10:39 AM

well this is hilarious if nada else....
Dave yur phunnie....

i'll bet crotchless or knot these white sheets nee underoos do a great camel toe for certain of the faithful flock.... :lol:

cults are soooo weird.

Of course

Dave - 6-17-2009 at 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
BTW, Meredith is a man.

This should have been your first, and last clue:

"Meredith Romney, the LDS leader in Chihuahua..."

Pollen - 6-17-2009 at 11:21 AM

It's Merdith, not Meredith.

And who cares, this was another kidnapping!

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 11:34 AM

I wonder if the church will bail him out. Can they afford not to on the world stage? Only a church would try to justify that.

If they do I'll convert

Dave - 6-17-2009 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I wonder if the church will bail him out.

Cheap insurance!!!

I guess I could get used to the undies.

Anyway, who's gonna check?

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Post-1979 two-piece temple garments end just above the knee for both sexes. Women's garment have a rounded or sweetheart neckline with cap sleeves. Male tops are available in tee-shirt styles

I guess men have to wear them as well. And, to think they were close to becoming part of the presidential wardrobe.
What a bunch of ridiculous nonsense. Like the mandatory veil in the middle east.

Ya know, we could excercise "thread purity" here and stick to the original topic, that of the kidnapping, but what more is there to say without additional details? Does that mean the thread has to die?
No...It morphs as they all do when all has been said. It isn't disrespect...It's a natural progression.

mtgoat666 - 6-17-2009 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

It seeems that only main stream christian religions seem to be in favor here at Nomadlandia.
Y'all should be careful about taking a kidnapping story and turning it into a fun fest at the expense of mormons and islam.

Respectfully,
the atheist goat :lol:

p.s. 9 out of 10 mormon women are blond and hot :lol:

tripledigitken - 6-17-2009 at 01:09 PM

Goat,

I don't find myself in agreement with you too often, but you got this one right!

Ken

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 01:23 PM

Whoever called it a fun-fest? I just think it's ridiculous. I'm allowed to do that.
9 out of 10, huh........ Who would know with all the clothing they have to wear. The freakin underwear thing had to have a beginning with the chastity belt. Is that a reasonable idea this day and age?

mtgoat666 - 6-17-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Whoever called it a fun-fest? I just think it's ridiculous. I'm allowed to do that.
9 out of 10, huh........ Who would know with all the clothing they have to wear. The freakin underwear thing had to have a beginning with the chastity belt. Is that a reasonable idea this day and age?

me thinks that most wear thongs and have never seen a mormon suit outside of temple :lol:

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
me thinks that most wear thongs and have never seen a mormon suit outside of temple :lol:

Which leads me to believe the garment is fully visible inside the temple. What are they doing in there anyway? No wonder they lock the doors. :lol:

bajabound2005 - 6-17-2009 at 01:58 PM

Former LDS Church leader kidnapped in Mexico

The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 06/17/2009 10:41:24 AM MDT

ESPN is reporting the kidnapping of a man who previously was an LDS Church leader in Mexico. Meredith Romney, uncle to professional bull rider Rocky McDonald, was kidnapped while he and his family were leaving their ranch Monday near Janos, Chihuahua, ESPN reported on Tuesday. According to McDonald, gunmen shot out the tires of Romney's truck and forced him into their vehicle, leaving his wife and grandson behind, the network reported.

Romney was president of the Colonia Juárez Chihuahua Temple from 1999 to 2004, according to Ensign magazine church news reports archived on the LDS Church Web site.

He remains a member of the LDS Church, a spokesman said.

-

Woooosh - 6-17-2009 at 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pollen
It's Merdith, not Meredith.

And who cares, this was another kidnapping!

They killed a priest and seminarians this week. They would have preferred to have been kidnapped I'm fairly sure:

"Hernandez and the two seminarians had just celebrated Mass in Arcelia and were leaving the area when a group of unknown gunmen pulled up next to their vehicle and opened fire, according to the local human rights organization Montana Tlachinollan. Local reports added that after shooting the priest's vehicle, the gunmen pulled the men outside and shot them in the back."

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/16/mexico.cler...

Don't we have enough local baja kidnappings, beheadings and extortions to post about? (yes, we do)

[Edited on 6-17-2009 by Woooosh]

Bajahowodd - 6-17-2009 at 02:40 PM

Sorry Pollen, but even The Mormon Times spells it Meredith. Go correct them.

Neal Johns - 6-17-2009 at 03:25 PM

Meridith was returned at 10:00 this morning. No further details.

We (Marian and I) were sort of adopted by one of the several Romney families in Colonia Juarez (about 150 miles below the border) several years ago. I met them while on an archeological trip to the nearby Valley of the Caves. They took us in, showered us (self defense?), fed us and we have visited several times while leading 4x4 trips to Copper Canyon. While Meridith has a ranch near Janos, he lives in Colonia Juarez above the temple they got a few years ago.

We are not Mormons, just in case you are wondering.

Bajahowodd - 6-17-2009 at 04:11 PM

Interesting. Perhaps Meredith is mighty persuasive. Or, more likely, a ransom was paid. It's almost a hint of genius for the thugs to try and kidnap a Mormon leader, inasmuch as the LDS church is very tightknit and also has considerable wealth.

That being said, I must confess that I was somewhat surprised to see posters labelling the LDS church as some sort of cult. Understand, I go to the same church as "goat". I wonder what the qualification of a cult is? There are like 14 million Mormons wordwide, and approximately 5 Million in the US. For perspective, there are only about 8 million Lutherans in the US. So, if it's not about size, then what? Weird rituals? The temple garment for example. Seems like every organized religion has what some could call weird rituals. What would baptism seem to non-Christians? Original sin? Think about that. How better to ensure the future membership of your organization than to promote the need for a ritual that brings a baby into the church? I've always been bemused by the fact that the source of Judaism, Christianity and Islam lies within the same region among the same people. And yet, has historically been a flashpoint of evil deeds.

Some of you may wish to flame me right now. But just consider the fact that a seeming innocent man was kidnapped for what appears to be ransom. Looks like it worked. Who's next?

DianaT - 6-17-2009 at 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Meridith was returned at 10:00 this morning. No further details.

We (Marian and I) were sort of adopted by one of the several Romney families in Colonia Juarez (about 150 miles below the border) several years ago. I met them while on an archeological trip to the nearby Valley of the Caves. They took us in, showered us (self defense?), fed us and we have visited several times while leading 4x4 trips to Copper Canyon. While Meridith has a ranch near Janos, he lives in Colonia Juarez above the temple they got a few years ago.

We are not Mormons, just in case you are wondering.

A couple of pictures of Colonia Juarez which is a beautiful little town that has a very interesting history and a very well known private school. And a few years back they paved the road there and it is one of best roads around!

We have visited there on our way to Mata Ortiz for pottery and or Copper Canyon. It is a very friendly place---the first time, it was a surprise to see so many blonds around and the local buildings--

The temple

If I remember correctly, George Romney, the father of Mitt was born in Colonia Juarez.

Like some others, I think the religious bashing is quite out of place, and no, I am not a Mormon, I am a Pantheist and a member of a Unitarian/Universalist Church. And, I am not a fan of the Mormon religion, nor a fan of the Romney's US politics.

But there is not a religion in the world that one could not find beliefs and practice absurd and easy to poke fun at---including mine.

I hope the victim and his family are OK.

Diane

[Edited on 6-17-2009 by jdtrotter]

[Edited on 6-17-2009 by jdtrotter]

Bajahowodd - 6-17-2009 at 04:35 PM

Kisses to you, Diane. Just don't let hubby find out.

arrowhead - 6-17-2009 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Interesting. Perhaps Meredith is mighty persuasive. Or, more likely, a ransom was paid.

I doubt they paid any ransom. There wasn't enough time between the kidnapping last night and the release to negotiate a ransom, get the money and drop it off. It is far more likely the cops -- who are all in cahoots with the kidnappers -- felt way too much heat from on high and had him turned loose.

Neal Johns - 6-17-2009 at 08:34 PM

Diane,
My friends are teachers in the Academy (High School).
George Romney, indeed was born in Colonia Juarez, and was the Governor of Michigan. Those Romneys get around.

An ancestor of my friends (Nelle Hatch) wrote the definitive book about Colonia Juarez titled - what else - Colonia Juarez - so I found a copy and sent it to them. It took me two years to find one and now there are about 50 for sale. Go figure.

Interestingly, they had land problems even then. They purchased some land there in the late 1800's, moved from mostly the Salt Lake area, settled in, some in caves they dug, then found out the were a couple of miles from where they were supposed to be. And moved again.

We have a small collection of Casas Grandes pottery we bought in Mata Ortiz. They used to have horses for transportation, now they all make pottery and have pickups. A fun place to visit, Nomads.
Neal

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns

George Romney, indeed was born in Colonia Juarez, and was the Governor of Michigan. Those Romneys get around.

That would put his son, Mitt, one small step away from having Mexican citizenship. I don't recall hearing this detail when he ran for the Republican presidential nomination.

Neal Johns - 6-17-2009 at 09:06 PM

Mitt was born in Detroit (thanks Google)
George in Colonia Juarez, but grew up in Idaho and Utah. No wonder he is one of those Republican critters. :lol:

CortezBlue - 6-17-2009 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Or not. :rolleyes:

I'm not LDS, but that shows little respect

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Mitt was born in Detroit (thanks Google)
George in Colonia Juarez, but grew up in Idaho and Utah. No wonder he is one of those Republican critters. :lol:

Timely coincidence here, Neal. A thread started just today which illustrates my point. Perhaps you missed it:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=39316

DianaT - 6-17-2009 at 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Diane,
My friends are teachers in the Academy (High School).
George Romney, indeed was born in Colonia Juarez, and was the Governor of Michigan. Those Romneys get around.

An ancestor of my friends (Nelle Hatch) wrote the definitive book about Colonia Juarez titled - what else - Colonia Juarez - so I found a copy and sent it to them. It took me two years to find one and now there are about 50 for sale. Go figure.

Interestingly, they had land problems even then. They purchased some land there in the late 1800's, moved from mostly the Salt Lake area, settled in, some in caves they dug, then found out the were a couple of miles from where they were supposed to be. And moved again.

We have a small collection of Casas Grandes pottery we bought in Mata Ortiz. They used to have horses for transportation, now they all make pottery and have pickups. A fun place to visit, Nomads.
Neal

That has to be are really interesting book. Too bad it seems to be limited now. ---love that whole area, but then again we love all the states in Mexico for different reasons.

The paved road and fame that has come to Mata Ortiz has been a double edged sword for many reasons---but that seems to be what happens. Lots of EXCELLENT pottery there, and lots that is not and lots of family feuds and community growing pains.

We had the pleasure a few years ago of meeting Walter Parks there who wrote a book about Mata Ortiz--- he sent us a signed copy that we love.

OK, most of the horses are gone, but as of the last time we were there, they still used this as an attaction for some of the bus loads of tourists that now arrive from Tuson. The many bus tours are good and bad for the community.

Just a pix I like and it was fun taking a print back to him.

Once we stopped there on our way to Batopillas---we had a ton of bubble wrap and the pottery made it safe and sound.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns

George Romney, indeed was born in Colonia Juarez, and was the Governor of Michigan. Those Romneys get around.

That would put his son, Mitt, one small step away from having Mexican citizenship. I don't recall hearing this detail when he ran for the Republican presidential nomination.

Dennis, it did come out as an issue back then, but not for long because he was defeated. He was a US citizen, but not born on US soil and it was an interesting question.

If anyone wants to read a really interesting story, just google Juan Quezada and Mata Ortiz----it is quite a story.

Diane

BTW Neal, on the thread about our dog, I noticed some beautiful Huichol beaded bowls on your table---I love ours and our yarn art and wish I had more.

[Edited on 6-18-2009 by jdtrotter]

DENNIS - 6-17-2009 at 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
Dennis, it did come out as an issue back then, but not for long because he was defeated. He was a US citizen, but not born on US soil and it was an interesting question.

Thanks, Diane. My confusion grows. I just posted to Neal above so I'll leave it at that.

correct

Dave - 6-18-2009 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue

I'm not LDS, but that shows little respect

I have little respect.

DENNIS - 6-18-2009 at 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I have little respect.

You have mine..... :tumble:

bent-rim - 6-18-2009 at 09:47 AM

Here's a couple of links about the Mormon group located in Los Molinos. My buddy told me about this group, he almost married into it in Utah when a neighbor wanted him to marry both of his daughter's. His boss clued him in to what the group was about and he left Utah for California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervil_LeBaron
http://www.hismin.com/lebaron.html

Or Google Ervil LeBaron

[Edited on 6-18-2009 by bent-rim]

And back at you

Dave - 6-18-2009 at 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I have little respect.

You have mine..... :tumble:

DanO - 6-18-2009 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I have little respect.

You have mine..... :tumble:

Awwwww, that's so cute. You guys should start signing your posts with xoxoxox.

I wuv you too

Dave - 6-18-2009 at 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
Awwwww, that's so cute. You guys should start signing your posts with xoxoxox.

We could have been married by now but them Mormons had to stick their nose in it. :rolleyes:

tripledigitken - 6-18-2009 at 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I have little respect.

You have mine..... :tumble:

Awwwww, that's so cute. You guys should start signing your posts with xoxoxox.

Or get a room! :lol:

DianaT - 6-18-2009 at 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bent-rim
Here's a couple of links about the Morman group located in Los Molinos. My buddy told me about this group, he almost married into it in Utah when a neighbor wanted him to marry both of his daughter's. His boss clued him in to what the group was about and he left Utah for California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervil_LeBaron
http://www.hismin.com/lebaron.html

Or Google Ervil LeBaron

Not connected to Colonia Juarez.

But if you want a first hand account of Ervil LeBaron, ask ELINVESTI8 ----I looked for the link to where he told his story, but I think he removed the story----

DENNIS - 6-18-2009 at 11:40 AM

Just for all that, I'm going off meds for 72 hours. Then, and only then, will I resume this conversation. :biggrin:

ELINVESTIG8R - 6-18-2009 at 01:08 PM

For the record Colonia Los Molinos which is located southwest of Colonia Vicente Guerrero and Colonia LeBaron which is south of Galeana Chihuahua Mexico are not main stream Mormon colonies. Ervil LeBaron was not affiliated with the Colonia Dublan or Colonia Juarez Mormons which are main stream Mormons with headquarters in the state of Utah. They do not practice polygamy. Ervil LeBaron had his brother Joel LeBaron murdered to take control of his polygamist church, Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times located in Colonia LeBaron and Colonia Los Molinos. Ervil also had his followers firebomb and shoot up Colonia Los Molinos where some people died. Ervil started his own church he called Church of the Lamb of God. BajaNomad jdtrotter has the link in her post that shows the linkages. Ervil declared himself the “Avenging Angel of Jesus Christ” and went on to have other people murdered. A Few books have been written about Ervil LeBaron, one of which is called “The Prophet of Blood.” Just know that the main stream Mormons and the polygamist religions are totally different entities. Ervil has since died of a heart attack in a Utah prison years ago. My mom was married to Ervil LeBaron and because I ran away from Colonia LeBaron at the age of twelve I do not have any first hand knowledge of what has been written in the books.

DianaT - 6-18-2009 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
For the record Colonia Los Molinos which is located southwest of Colonia Vicente Guerrero and Colonia LeBaron which is south of Galeana Chihuahua Mexico are not main stream Mormon colonies. Ervil LeBaron was not affiliated with the Colonia Dublan or Colonia Juarez Mormons which are main stream Mormons with headquarters in the state of Utah. They do not practice polygamy. Ervil LeBaron had his brother Joel LeBaron murdered to take control of his polygamist church, Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times located in Colonia LeBaron and Colonia Los Molinos. Ervil also had his followers firebomb and shoot up Colonia Los Molinos where some people died. Ervil started his own church he called Church of the Lamb of God. BajaNomad jdtrotter has the link in her post that shows the linkages. Ervil declared himself the “Avenging Angel of Jesus Christ” and went on to have other people murdered. A Few books have been written about Ervil LeBaron, one of which is called “The Prophet of Blood.” Just know that the main stream Mormons and the polygamist religions are totally different entities. Ervil has since died of a heart attack in a Utah prison years ago. My mom was married to Ervil LeBaron and because I ran away from Colonia LeBaron at the age of twelve I do not have any first hand knowledge of what has been written in the books.

Just for the record, nomad bent-rim put in those links and I just quoted his post to try and set the record straight that LeBaron had nothing to do with the Mormons in Colonia Juarez---

Sorry if you did not want me to mention you, but you had posted your story openly here and elsewhere----putting my name in bold sort of indicates that, or maybe it doesn't.

Diane

ELINVESTIG8R - 6-18-2009 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
Just for the record, nomad bent-rim put in those links and I just quoted his post to try and set the record straight that LeBaron had nothing to do with the Mormons in Colonia Juarez---

Sorry if you did not want me to mention you, but you had posted your story openly here and elsewhere----putting my name in bold sort of indicates that, or maybe it doesn't.

Diane

Diane, I did not have a problem with you linking me to Ervil LeBaron. The only reason I bolded your name was to point the reader to the link in your post. I did not realize it was a quote from bent-rim. That’s all.

David.

DianaT - 6-18-2009 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8

Diane, I did not have a problem with you linking me to Ervil LeBaron. The only reason I bolded your name was to point the reader to the link in your post. I did not realize it was a quote from bent-rim. That’s all.

David.

Thanks David. :yes:

bent-rim - 6-18-2009 at 03:27 PM

I didn't mean to start anything here. I was responding to an earlier post in this thread about a Mormon connection to Baja. As to whether the Los Molinos crowd are Mormon or not, I don't know. My friend who told me of the group is a Mormon and he considers them Mormons, but given what I've read about this group I could see how mainstream Mormons would distance themselves from this group.

[Edited on 6-18-2009 by bent-rim]

ELINVESTIG8R - 6-18-2009 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bent-rim
I didn't mean to start anything here. I was responding to an earlier post in this thread about a Morman connection to Baja. As to whether the Los Molinos crowd are Morman or not, I don't know. My friend who told me of the group is a Morman and he considers them Mormans, but given what I've read about this group I could see how mainstream Mormans would distance themselves from this group.

BajaNomad Bent-rim you did not start anything. All is Okie Dokie

DianaT - 6-18-2009 at 03:35 PM

No problem, bent-rim----just glad your friend did not marry into that group!

thebajarunner - 6-18-2009 at 09:30 PM

Alma LeBaron, who owned "Viveros LeBaron" in Casas Grandes, and told me one night around a campfire in Hermosillo that he had four wives, now lives just over the hill toward the Pacific out of San Vicente.

Bajahowodd - 6-18-2009 at 11:35 PM

Hey folks. No judgement here. Just enjoyed fascinating stuff. Thanks.