BajaNomad - Military Torture of Civilians Jeopardizes Meridia Initiative funding

Military Torture of Civilians Jeopardizes Meridia Initiative funding

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 08:57 AM

Editorial Page: San Diego Union Tribune 07/20/09

Mexico must uphold human rights commitments

As this page has stressed many times before, the United States and Mexico are full partners in the bloody war against Mexican drug cartels. That's only right. Americans buy most of the drugs exported from Mexico, and they supply most of the guns imported into Mexico by drug traffickers.
Half of this partnership is that the United States has pledged under the Mérida Initiative to provide $1.4 billion to Mexico, Central American and Caribbean nations to help authorities combat the cartels. But the other half of the deal is that Mexico has promised, consistent with the conditions of the Mérida agreement, to make progress on human rights by prosecuting suspected human rights offenders, prohibiting the use in criminal trials of testimony obtained through torture and consulting often with independent human rights groups.

Now it looks like Mexico isn't holding up its part of the bargain, and that puts in jeopardy the 15 percent of the Mérida money that cannot be released until the U.S. secretary of state confirms that Mexico has made progress on human rights. There are t disturbing allegations, some of which were detailed recently in The Washington Post, that the Mexican army has carried out forced disappearances, acts of torture, looting of villages and illegal raids in pursuit f of drug traffickers.

We don't know whether the accusations are true, but it's the job of the Mexican government to find out. And if military officers committed these crimes, they must be punished. A lot is riding on the integrity of the anti-drug effort, and it can't be compromised, either by the United States or Mexico. U.S. officials have to deliver funding as promised, but Mexican authorities have to meet their obligations as well.

Of course, fighting drug dealers is a messy business. It's understandable that some members of the Mexican military might be feeling the pressure of the otherwise noble campaign in which they're involved. In fighting back against the Mexican government, drug cartels have killed more than 70 soldiers. Some of the casualties were tortured, and their bodies mutilated. It's natural that some of their comrades might want vengeance. But it's not acceptable.

Mexican of ficials acknowledge that some abuses have occurred in the fight against trafJohn Overmyer fickers but insist that the cases are isolated. Whether that's true or not isn't the point. The goal, for Mexico, should be that there be no abuse at all. That may not be possible but that's he ideal for which our neighbor should strive. And that's what we should insist upon in order for this partnership to move forward. If that means holding back some of the funding until Mexican authorities ulfill their oversight duties, so be it.

Mexico's drug war is a just cause. All the more reason why it must be fought in a just way.

flyfishinPam - 7-20-2009 at 09:36 AM

what the hell is "trafJohn Overmeyer flickers"?

a quick read this story is it's vague yet sensationalist. there are better examples to pad this headline with besides the above.

my opinion stands at legalizing all of it. this is the 1920's Chicago Al Capone revisited but at a much larger scale and more dangerous. when heads start showing up in the USA with hastily written threats and taunts, and they will, you'll come to the same realization up there. i am sorry it has to be this way.

bajajazz - 7-20-2009 at 09:59 AM

Longterm, it looks to me like the only thing Calderon and PAN have accomplished in their "War On Drugs," is to bring PRI back into power. And when PRI regains the presidency in the next presidential election, most likely all restraints will be off and the drugs and weapons will flow across the border like an avalanche off a mountain. Can anyone say "Failed State?"

The only way to avoid a worse outcome than is already perfectly obvious even to an unengaged observer like me, is to at a minimum decriminalize drugs, particularly mary jane, and move towards legalization and taxation.

If people want to blow their brains out with coke or whatever -- let 'em. I know that sounds terribly cold, but the choice we face is drug usage done peaceably, or drug usage accompanied by extreme violence with massive amounts of money flowing into the bank accounts of some of the most despicable people in the world.

The drug cartels are so powerful now that they are, in effect, a fourth branch of government, albeit underground. While it's a well known truism that sewage can't flow uphill, money most certainly can and does, and money in massive amounts equals power. It is suicidal insanity for Mexico or the United States to persist in a "War On Drugs" that has never succeeded and obviously never will.

I find it funny in an ironic kind of way that movement toward a sane drug policy -- if it happens at all -- is going to be dictated not by common sense, but by the necessity for revenue derived by taxation and the savings that state governments can achieve by not imprisoning drug offenders.

As Duke Ellington used to say, "Necessity is the mother."

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 10:17 AM

"Americans ... supply most of the guns imported into Mexico by drug traffickers. "

They just keep repeating this same distortion over and over and now it is accepted as the truth- even by an editorial staff.

90 percent of guns with markings that Mexico could not trace and were sent to the USA for further testing were found to be from the USA. Not 90 % of all guns.

The thousands of knock-off chinese assault weapons have no markings and hardly any of the guns found in Mexico have any markings to begin with. Besides...Mexico has no gun tracing database.

By the time they legalize weed and get rid of that drug business, crystal meth will have destroyed Mexico. I can't believe how fast this ugly witches-brew is spreading down here- tweekers everywhere.

[Edited on 7-20-2009 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 10:38 AM

I would disagree with "most" as well. no proof of that.

Bajahowodd - 7-20-2009 at 10:59 AM

I don't know why we seem to get hung up on percentages. In my opinion, any amount of weapons flowing from the US into the hands of the cartels is too many. Sure, if we are able to staunch that flow, they'll get weapons from elsewhere. But it is still doesn't mean we have to be part of the problem.

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
"Americans ... supply most of the guns imported into Mexico by drug traffickers. "

This 'gun source" stuff is getting tedious. Why won't the US cop out to being the sole supplier and get this blame game over with. I mean, what's the difference if we're supplying 80% or all of them? We can't say we arn't a major source and our weak arguement is like saying a person is 80% pregnant.
Too much time is spent argueing this pointless point.

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 11:27 AM

I don't think it's even 10% Dennis. There is no possible way for Mexico to prove any number at all- so they distorted the tracking process and made up a huge one. Mexico doesn't have a tracking system or database- they are only now trying to create one. Only reputable gun makers mark their guns and China and the others who provide the lions share of weapons worldwide don't. You think they are buying grenades and at US gun shows too? Very tedious indeed when there is no truthful number possible. All propaganda.

Pretty soon they will say is is imposter soldiers doing the torturing- just wait.

[Edited on 7-20-2009 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
There are t disturbing allegations, some of which were detailed recently in The Washington Post, that the Mexican army has carried out forced disappearances, acts of torture, looting of villages and illegal raids in pursuit f of drug traffickers.

We don't know whether the accusations are true, but it's the job of the Mexican government to find out.

And, when they find it's true, they should bestow medals of honor on the soldiers who are taking the fight to the enemy rather than flipping over to the other side. This is war. Fight it like what it is...war. Screw human rights. That plea is just another weapon of the enemy.
Fight it like you want to win it.

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I don't think it's even 10% Dennis.

C'mon, Whoooosh...that's absurd. Every little Hispanic prick on the streets of the US has a garage full of guns. Why would it be hard to believe they wouldn't be shipped south.
And what's up with all these port of entry interdiction efforts? Haven't they come to terms with the porous border yet? I mean, if a million Mexicans can walk through unhindered on their northern passage, wouldn't it occur to anybody that arms movers could be using the same trails in a southern direction?
This whole thing stinks.

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 12:40 PM

Let me pose just one more question. At San Ysidro, with the random red lite/green lite thing going on for years, have they ever caught a shippment of arms going south? I've not heard of one except for some brain-dead Marines getting into the wrong lane.
This whole thing stinks.

One more thing.....It's well known that the vast majority of drugs going north are in container ships. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume guns are in the same ships going south.
This whole thing stinks.

JESSE - 7-20-2009 at 02:24 PM

Well, in my opinion Calderon´s war was a necessary thing. In many cities things where definately out of control and while i cannot comment on Juarez, or Michoacan, i can definately say Tijuana got (a little) better. Now, these violations where bound to happen when you send out 30,000 soldiers on the streets. I don´t like it just as much as critics do, but i would say to those critics, "show me viable alternatives?", not just nice feel good theories that won´t work. If the US would to withdraw the funds, it would just shoot itself on the foot for several reasons. #1 they simply cannot let the criminals take control wich would end up costing far more lives and money at the end. #2 The funds in reality are not a critical part of the overall funding that Mexico spends on this drug war.

Your talking gangs that cut off heads and shot up police stations. You can't realistically expect that violations won´t occur.

comitan - 7-20-2009 at 02:54 PM

And then the real story. Don't miss the part where Blackwater is now Xe Services.

ICO CITY, July 16 (Reuters) - As Mexico battles to keep a lid on raging drug murders, American companies are vying for millions of dollars worth of contracts for military equipment and training under a long-promised U.S aid package.

Private U.S. security firms will get the bulk of a $1.4 billion package pledged by the United States in 2007 to help its southern neighbor crush rampant drug gang violence. Only a fraction of the aid has been delivered so far.

Almost all of an initial $400 million tranche approved by the U.S. Congress in 2008 and being released bit by bit to buy helicopters and inspection gear and train Mexican police will be doled out to 30 or 40 U.S. companies, said an official at the U.S. embassy in Mexico City, asking not to be named.

The state-of-the art equipment, promised by former President George W. Bush at a meeting with President Felipe Calderon in the colonial city of Merida, is badly needed in Mexico as the death toll from a 2 1/2-year drug war tops 12,800.

"We would love to get in on some of that Merida money," said Scott Newman, an executive from Texas firm Texcalibur, which specializes in bulletproofing cars used in war zones.

"You see these trucks that aren't armored and they've got the Mexican police in the back holding on to roll bars. They are exposed. The narcos have bigger more powerful weapons and they just spray them with bullets," said Newman, whose firm recently attended a security fair in Mexico to hawk its wares.

The Mexican government has welcomed the so-called "Merida Initiative" and a promise by President Barack Obama to try to stem the smuggling of U.S. guns to Mexico but is not holding its breath for the gear to arrive.

Calderon has poured some $7 billion into a high-stakes army crackdown on drug cartels but his security forces struggle to match the clout of powerful gangs that shunt $40 billion worth of drugs across the U.S. border each year and smuggle back sophisticated weaponry and technology.

The deployment of thousands of troops since Calderon took office in late 2006 has stoked fresh turf wars between rival gangs. Hitmen often shoot their victims at close range, behead them or slowly torture them to death in cartel safe houses.

U.S. COMPANIES TOUT MIDEAST EXPERIENCE

Many U.S. security companies that supported anti-drug operations in Colombia or worked in Middle Eastern or African conflict zones say they have the expertise to help Mexico.

Hurt by the economic downturn, dozens are queuing up for Merida contracts, the U.S. Embassy official told Reuters.

Meanwhile, delays due in part to concerns in the U.S. Congress about possible human rights abuses by Mexican troops and in part to complicated contracting requirements spread across various U.S. agencies mean very little of the equipment promised under the Merida plan has actually arrived.

Some expect what is eventually delivered may look like less than the $1.4 billion promised to Mexico and Central America.

"I have heard Mexican authorities say the amounts awarded under Merida are false because such a large percentage stays in U.S. hands, in salaries and contracts and a lot of spending on bureaucracy," said Mexican security analyst Raul Benitez.

The economic downturn prompted the U.S. Congress to reduce the 2009 tranche of the Merida plan by 30 percent, approving just $300 million this year just as drug killings in Mexico are skyrocketing to unprecedented levels.

Five Bell (TXT.N) helicopters that cost more than $50 million are the first major batch of equipment to be bought under the package but they have yet to land in Mexico.

Other big contracts will go to scanners to detect traces of drugs, secure communications systems and forensic tools.

A growing trend toward military outsourcing by the U.S. government has come under scrutiny in Iraq after Blackwater security guards were accused of killing civilians and a former Halliburton subsidiary allegedly overcharged by millions.

Some of the largest private security firms like Dyncorp (DCP.N), Northrop Grumman Corp (NOC.N) and Blackwater, which has changed its name to Xe Services, declined to say if they were bidding on Merida contracts for equipment or training.

The Mexican government is being picky about contractors, carefully checking their reputations. "There is a sensitivity on (their) part about Merida looking like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Colombia," the U.S. embassy official said.

U.S. Democratic congresswoman Jan Schakowsky has raised concerns about using private contractors in the drug war abroad, saying monitoring their activities can be difficult.

"When they wear the badge of the United States there is a very clear chain of command and very clear rules," she told Reuters. "These contractors tend to be very much independent operators." (Editing by Bill Trott)

[Edited on 7-20-2009 by comitan]

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
And then the real story. Don't miss the part where Blackwater is now Xe Services.

I have a hard time with this, Wiley. It's difficult to imagine that Mexico would ever give up anything to foreign forces.

Truthfully, I don't believe the governments of Mexico or the U.S. have the balls to wage the fight. Too worried about image and elections and graft and everything other than purgeing the infection.

Mexico...her administration...her law enforcement agencies and her resolve to be clean ...are filthy. The time may not be too far off that the US decides to enter sovereign territory to help cleanse the problem.
God bless Calderón for his efforts but, it has become evident that the problem has spread to epidemic proportions. The insurgency is larger than ever imagined and it's working it's way north. Don't ever think it isn't.

The Mexican government invited into her home a cancer she thought she could control. Now.. it's taken over and may not be stopped.

Tough times call for tough decisions. Let's hope somebody has the balls to make them.

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I don't think it's even 10% Dennis.

You are right that there are a gazzillion US made guns in Mexico. So I'll give you half the argument and I know I didn't chuck mine in the trash whenI moved here. Were talking about the large calibre assault weapnos capable of taking out military. We are talking war grade weapons- not 7/11 robbeies. Or at least I am.

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Let me pose just one more question. At San Ysidro, with the random red lite/green lite thing going on for years, have they ever caught a shippment of arms going south? I've not heard of one except for some brain-dead Marines getting into the wrong lane.
This whole thing stinks.

One more thing.....It's well known that the vast majority of drugs going north are in container ships. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume guns are in the same ships going south.
This whole thing stinks.

corrrect two more times- you're on a streak :rolleyes:

It does absolutely dumbfound me that high-tech tunnels are still being built and used. They found an electrified one just last week under the via rapida (Border to Playas highway). The one they found at Otay a few years back was lighted, air conditioned, could handle pallets and came up into a warehouse for trucking out. Why is there no DEA equipment for tunnel finding (sensors with a blend of seismology and imaging- not just above ground systems.) ?

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Well, in my opinion Calderon´s war was a necessary thing. In many cities things where definately out of control and while i cannot comment on Juarez, or Michoacan, i can definately say Tijuana got (a little) better. Now, these violations where bound to happen when you send out 30,000 soldiers on the streets. I don´t like it just as much as critics do, but i would say to those critics, "show me viable alternatives?", not just nice feel good theories that won´t work. If the US would to withdraw the funds, it would just shoot itself on the foot for several reasons. #1 they simply cannot let the criminals take control wich would end up costing far more lives and money at the end. #2 The funds in reality are not a critical part of the overall funding that Mexico spends on this drug war.

Your talking gangs that cut off heads and shot up police stations. You can't realistically expect that violations won´t occur.

It was and is a necessary war. Calderon (and most all of us) had no idea how little righteousness existed within the corrupted institutions that made up his army. Police, Lawyers, Prosecuors, Judges, Jailers, the Military, Politicians, and even his closest security advisors. They basically hung him out to dry and yet he's still fighting. I think this is the first time the sysytem has been exposed like this. Fox started to- but it was Calderon who beat the hornests nest.

I tried to explain "moral copass" to a narco once and he loooked at me in stunned disbelief- like i was a guru putting him on the path to enlightenment. They are morally like the night of the living dead- zombies trudging forward without guilt or shame.

I would add to Jesses comments that the United States has let us all down for doing the very same things the Mexican Army is now being accused of. He was too kind to point that out. The more I learn about what was allowed to be acceptable by our troops, the harder it is for me to judge other less-developed countries without our values. I don't think we all understand yet just how far went after 911. All armies have renegade soldiers and groups - look at Ecuador.

I think one high-tech soutbound checkpoint y Mexico could confiscate more cash than what the US is offerring up in Meridia funds anyway- just a pallet or two of hundreds a week will do...

[Edited on 7-21-2009 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Fox started to- but it was Calderon who beat the hornests nest.

Ohhhh pleeeeze....the only thing Fox started was his personal PR firm. Lame pato from day one.
Did you read his book? It opens with an appeal for understanding of illegal immigration.
Ride off into the sunset, Fox....assuming you know what direction that lies.
Six years of useless dork this country didn't need.

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Fox started to- but it was Calderon who beat the hornests nest.

It not what Fox did or did not accomplish. It was the first change in party control. Kind of like gore's people taking the "w" off all the white house keyboards- but on a national level and at every level. Hard place to start from.

DENNIS - 7-20-2009 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
It not what Fox did or did not accomplish.

Really???? He could have done something. After all, It was his show and the longer it played, the worse the reviews got.

No Whoooosh...He freakin blew it. He did nothing. He was intimidated to the max. By his inaction in the face of the enemy, he became one of them. Public enemy number freakin one.

Woooosh - 7-20-2009 at 07:16 PM

No one likes change. No wants wants change. Change is inevitable, growth is optional. Calderon could not have kown it was as bad as it was. Couldn't have.

For as bad as this war is- Mexico and this temporary narco problem is dwarfed by other problmes in the world. No one cares if Mexico implodes except Mexico. The Mexicans who could have saved Mexico are posting from the USA now- safe and with hope for their grandchildren. They threw in the towel long ago (see moral compass post above ) .

k-rico - 7-20-2009 at 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
For as bad as this war is- Mexico and this temporary narco problem is dwarfed by other problmes in the world. No one cares if Mexico implodes except Mexico. The Mexicans who could have saved Mexico are posting from the USA now- safe and with hope for their grandchildren. They threw in the towel long ago (see moral compass post above ) .

Oh the drama, where do you get this stuff??

Lighten up.

Zoloft, Prozac, a few hours at Anthonys, I dunno.

gnukid - 7-20-2009 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
No one likes change. No wants wants change. Change is inevitable, growth is optional. Calderon could not have kown it was as bad as it was. Couldn't have.

For as bad as this war is- Mexico and this temporary narco problem is dwarfed by other problmes in the world. No one cares if Mexico implodes except Mexico. The Mexicans who could have saved Mexico are posting from the USA now- safe and with hope for their grandchildren. They threw in the towel long ago (see moral compass post above ) .

How is it that you have the idea that drug smuggling is temporary or limited to a Mexico issue?

Didn't every child's text book growing up note opium trade, even George Washington wrote extensively about Marijuana as a crop and as a commodity traded for centuries? And every paper chronicles the market daily.

There are systematic divisions of market and profitability from growing, production, harvesting, selling from farmer to trafficker, smugglers, distributors, funding, money laundering, distribution and street dealing as well as legal distribution? Plus complimentary industries, policing, prisons, military, bribes etc...

What truck did you fall off of to decide that this is a surprise to Calderon or to anyone? That is the most naive concept I have heard and definitely misses the point by more than a few kilometers. Can we drop the 'boy what a surprise?' reactions and move forward to reasonable approaches to this vast interconnected industry that affects every aspect of our lives from lending, to construction, to military industrial complex growth, to wars, to IMF, Federal Reserve, etc...

How could one become an adult in any country let alone the USA and not have a better handle on the state of drug affairs which affects our lives in every possible conceivable way while claiming complete ignorance as well as fantastic naivete and further project this upon a head of state?

A basic set of tools to problem solve includes a basic understanding of the drug market and its impact before we can approach this far reaching issue.

Why not look into it a bit? Or are you among those who refuse to educate themselves defiantly?

Try this - Catherine Austin Fitts is a financial advisor who was HUD assistant secretary, she wrote extensively about Narco Dollars and how they affect so many markets.

http://www.drugwar.com/fittsnarco1.shtm

k-rico - 7-21-2009 at 05:48 AM

Quote:

"I've not heard of one" - I guess it's never happened then, right?

A question - Do you read Mexican newspapers or listen to Mexican TV news?

My wife does daily and she just told me that they (Mex Army) just busted an AFO cartel guy in TJ with 3.5 million dollars in his car and busted some smugglers on the mainland with tons (literally) of cocaine.

I know that's not about the border but my point is there is alot going on that US news sources don't bother to report. And I think that especially applies to successful events and other happenings when there aren't any bloody details.

If you're only reading/listening to US news, you're getting only a fraction of the story.

DENNIS - 7-21-2009 at 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

"I've not heard of one" - I guess it's never happened then, right?

A question - Do you read Mexican newspapers or listen to Mexican TV news?

1. I didn't say or imply that. It was a question.

2. Yes I do.

Read back. My question was specific as to place and contraband. Your examples addressed neither.

Woooosh - 7-21-2009 at 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

What is "temporary" is delaying the obvious solution- decriminalize it, legalize it, regulate it, tax it and move on. It's really that simple. All the other problems will go away- just like alcohol. Toomuch money involved. There are just as many corrupt police and narcos in the USA- Calderon said it to Hillary and no one disputed it.

It's all about the money. Everyone is corrupted. With the limited income opportunities the uneducated have in Mexico- I don't blame them. It's their one shot to live the lifestyle they grew up watching on abc, nbc and cbs. Probably their only chance.

Yes, I'm an old connecticut yankeee with that value set. Those values have saved the world more than once and I don't back off them or ever apologize for them. Americans deserve to ride on their high horse- they paid for it will the blood and guts of our fathers and grandfathers. America was founded by a revolution of the people- we have a different mindset Meican can never undestand or appreciate. La Raza... geeeesh

Yes, it is a very high horse I proudly ride as an American while Mexico rides a flea infested burro painted like a zebra headed down a path it can't even find. That is reality.

[Edited on 7-21-2009 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 7-21-2009 at 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
even George Washington wrote extensively about Marijuana as a crop and as a commodity traded for centuries

Wasn't that "Hemp?" I thought there was a technical difference.
What do I know? My drug of choice is Pacifico.

Woooosh - 7-21-2009 at 08:38 AM

Correct again Dennis. I think there used to be coca in coca-cola once too. LOL

fishingmako - 7-22-2009 at 01:46 PM

Above there was an interesting item saying about Chinese weapons, do you might think some of these may be coming in on Cargo ships to Mexico? or am I just off course? might be easier than autos and a heck of a lot more, with no checking????????

Woooosh - 7-23-2009 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishingmako
Above there was an interesting item saying about Chinese weapons, do you might think some of these may be coming in on Cargo ships to Mexico? or am I just off course? might be easier than autos and a heck of a lot more, with no checking????????

Ya think? Mexico never released the total numbers and types of combat weapons confiscated to date or even a breakdown by country of origin. They have it- but they can't blame the USA if they admit most all come from somewhere else.

Allwe know for sure is 90% of the guns Mexico physically turned over to the USA for testing were made in the USA. That's all we know.

[Edited on 7-23-2009 by Woooosh]

JESSE - 7-23-2009 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

90% of the traceble guns come from the US, wich means, guns that still have some sort of serial number that can be traced to its origin. The rest of the guns cannot technically be traced because they have had all id marks removed. Now, what in the world would make anybody with any rationality think, that if 90% of the traceble guns wich by the way, are confiscated all over the country, from several cartels, and from several suppliers, are from the US. That the rest of the non traceable guns that are confiscated under the same conditions, are from somewhere else ?

Do you understand how ridiculous it is to think that all the cartels, and all the gun traffickers, and all the organized crime cells operating around the country, have managed to get togeter in order to remove IDs from non americans guns when we all know they don´t give a damn?

And a few people here keep saying we "Mexicans can´t accept responsability".

:rolleyes:

Woooosh - 7-23-2009 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

This horse has already been beat to death. Weapons come up from the south and from the narcos friends worldwide- plenty in Columbia heading this way. And how many Mexican military weapons are in the hands of the narcos- Mexico isn't talking about those. Not ALL wepaons are marked when they made either- only ones from reputable manufacturers. There is no way for anyone to determine the truth about gun numbers- but Mexicos attempt to blame the USA for everything the past 100 years is tiresome.

While Meixco is playing the victim- the rest of world decided to let it. You can't fix stupid.

[Edited on 7-23-2009 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 7-23-2009 at 10:45 AM

This gun arguement is about as useful as the flu arguement. Too much emphasis on where it came from. Knowing where the flu started won't prevent it from starting there again and just because we know the US has a permissive gun policy wont stop that from continuing. If guns were to miraculously dissappear, cartels would be terrorizing the country with golf clubs.
Torturing prisoners and killing is all that's left in the government arsenal. Use it or lose it.

Another thing....this shipping of high-maintenance prisoners to the states and incarcerated at our expense has to stop. The vermin have to be erradicated at the point of exchange. Shroud them with our Bill Of Rights and burn them to dust. Adios MF.

JESSE - 7-23-2009 at 10:45 AM

Can´t handle the truth, i rest my case.

Responsibility

Dave - 7-23-2009 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Do you understand how ridiculous it is to think that all the cartels, and all the gun traffickers, and all the organized crime cells operating around the country, have managed to get togeter in order to remove IDs from non americans guns when we all know they don´t give a damn?

And a few people here keep saying we "Mexicans can´t accept responsability".

:rolleyes:

The issue is not where weapons are purchased. It's whether they get to Mexico.

Mexico bears the responsibility to police its borders. It appears that they are making the attempt.

toneart - 7-23-2009 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Whoooosh,
Gnukid raised good questions. I am glad you at least closed the gap with your first paragraph regarding your/(my)/The obvious solution. :yes:

DENNIS - 7-23-2009 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Mexico bears the responsibility to police its borders. It appears that they are making the attempt.

Policeing ports of entry is only part of the job and responsibility. Our lame efforts to control immigration testify to that.

DENNIS - 7-23-2009 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
What is "temporary" is delaying the obvious solution- decriminalize it, legalize it, regulate it, tax it and move on. It's really that simple. All the other problems will go away- just like alcohol.

Go away? Go where, Tony? The larger part of the problem now is people. The cartels, not the drugs. Where will this standing army go? Even if they wanted an honest job, where is that to be found?
It would probably take everybody's breath away if the estimated strength of the cartels were known. A huge number, I'm willing to bet. If it were public knowledge, the exodus for the border would be of biblical numbers.
This problem has no simple solution. Solve one part and you creat another.
This is war.

I'm not sure who I quoted up there. It's getting confusing.

[Edited on 7-23-2009 by DENNIS]

gnukid - 7-23-2009 at 02:19 PM

Dennis You act as though the affect of contraband smuggling is only on Mexico, where as crime related to smuggling is felt in every city in the world and the numbers are much higher than in Mexican Cities.

It seems that you would benefit from a closer analysis of contraband worldwide and its affects?

And perhaps instead of looking at US/Mexico Military as the savior consider their funding/involvement as a direct relationship to crime/murder/smuggling.

It doesn't need to be so cryptic? The issue is not the size of US or Mexico's military its their practices and direct relationship to drug channels, shipments, murders, etc...

Again, its a bit silly to speak of Mexico's human rights violatations when the US is actively hosting many civilian torture camps, and Obama is promoting detention of civilians even if they are innocent? Yet you are concerned that Mexico has a problem?

If you are so energetic and vocal about issues why not focus on those that affect you the most, the ongoing policies of Obama as a continuation of Bush/Cheney which promotes torture of civilians, warrantless surveilance, assassination squads etc...

And can you explain why the two countries actions are unrelated when they share funding, training, channels, profits, prisons, etc...

toneart - 7-23-2009 at 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

No Dennis, that quote was not from me. I did comment on it though, briefly, as a possible solution.

So........

You have a point there Dennis! But you have to start somewhere. War is not the answer. In fact, it has made it worse.

Get the middle man (cartels) out of it by decriminalizing it on both sides of the border. Squeeze that balloon and then deal with where it goes when that direction becomes apparent. Drugs is the business they know. Perhaps when fragmented, the cartels won't have the profit motivation or a clear focus on where or why to continue their violence.

Right now, drugs are their focus. They are already into kidnapping for ransom. If that is all they are left with, it would be a one at a time endeavor, with some success and some failures.

We have had this discussion before on this forum. I think that it would be difficult for people to change their basic philosophy regarding this proposal. So be it!

For those that are open to breaching the status quo, strategy is open for discussion.

DENNIS - 7-23-2009 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

You have a point there Dennis! But you have to start somewhere. War is not the answer. In fact, it has made it worse.

NO Tony...Friendship aside, you just don't get it.
The war you say has "made it worse" has been brought on by the enemy. Are you suggesting they're just defending themselves?
This is more than a desire to move dope. It's a desire to have enough power to influence and run a country and it's taking place right in front of your eyes, as much as you don't want to see it.
Mexico is melting down. Some of their leaders are in the cartel pocket.
Proof? Here you are.
Two national Drug Czars in the recent past have been found to be on cartel payroll.
Doesn't that mean anything to you? Do you, in your most naive moment, believe that these two are the only infected leaders in the war on drugs?
OhhhhPleeeeze........ Mexico is a copy of Colombia. The cancer has spread to lethal lengths and Merida Initiatives with our money will only find a way to bolster the enemy.

I want out of this snakepit. If and when I can sell my house...I'm effing gone. All the b-tchen Baja crap in the world won't make this a safer place. It gets worse daily.
It's dangerous and those who can't see this, and want to apologize for it, are as guilty as the cartels.
Lemme out of here.

Woooosh - 7-23-2009 at 06:39 PM

The war only made things worse because of the holes in the current system from cop to prison guard. Most cocaine goes straight to Spain by passing Mexico (street price much higher there). Portugal has decriminalized all drugs. Time are changing- so look forward to the next opportunity for the narcos- like prostituion and gambling.

And why can't Mexico develop more Las Vegas style resorts- even China is doing it. There is a new slot-type gambling "store" in the new Rosarito shopping center (It's the one with the blacked-out windows). Prostitution is legal and health cards issued in TJ. Vegas was built on those and Rosarito Beach was a genuine hot spot back then for both those reasons.

Woooosh - 7-23-2009 at 06:46 PM

http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/1553061.html

Mexican Narcos setting up grow farms in the USA- would would have thunk it? If it's worth $1.26 BILLION, don't burn in on a bonfire- sell it to the dispenseries and CA will get $50/ounce sales tax back too. Save some old folks medical services!
___________________________

... "Marijuana plants valued at more than $1.26 billion have been confiscated and 82 people arrested over the past 10 days in Fresno County. The operation started last week and is continuing.

By comparison, Tulare County's leading commodity -- milk -- was valued at about $1.8 billion in 2008.

Officials say the marijuana-eradication operation will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but the exact amount won't be known until agencies can add up staffing, vehicle and other costs.

In Operation SOS, more than 314,000 plants were uprooted in 70 gardens -- numbers expected to rise as the enforcement action continues. Agents also seized $41,000 in cash, 26 firearms and three vehicles.

Planning for the operation began in February and focused on marijuana crops being backed by Mexican drug cartels, Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims said.

Mims said many cartels are involved, but she would not name any because the investigation is still under way. All but one person arrested was from Mexico, officials said.

[Edited on 7-24-2009 by Woooosh]

toneart - 7-24-2009 at 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

You have a point there Dennis! But you have to start somewhere. War is not the answer. In fact, it has made it worse.

Dennis,
I do get it! I am aware of all that you offer as "proof". No, I am not suggesting that they are "just defending themselves". Of course they started it. What I am suggesting is where on the timeline that the "war" escalated. That was when (I believe it was Javier) Felix Arrellano was arrested while fishing off the So Cal coast and brought to San Diego. That coincided with the declaration of war by Calderon, emboldened by a huge infusion of money from the U.S.

Of course, I can tell the good guys from the bad guys. I am not saying that the attempt to eradicate the cartels was wrong. I am just saying that that push drew a horrible backlash of violence that keeps growing. So, my suggestions are what many have suggested. I have outlined that in my previous post which you reacted to.

I realize that it is a struggle for control of the country. The present course is not working. The violence must be curtailed. Divide and conquer by starting with decriminalization and then deal with the resultant aftermath when that direction becomes apparent.

What you are saying is that you have personally hit the wall and you want out. I can understand that and I would not advise you otherwise if you are convinced of your assessment of the situation in Baja. I am sorry this has happened. I can see that the fear is that your situation could get worse if they start looking for replacement activities if the dope is decriminalized and thus the profit deflated.

I think you and I are small potatoes and are invisible as targets, other than the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I am not living in your area. You may be aware of a direct and imminent threat that we are are not.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I think you and I are small potatoes and are invisible as targets, other than the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I am not living in your area. You may be aware of a direct and imminent threat that we are are not.

All I'm saying, Tony, is that I'm tired of swimming with the sharks. The threat is constant and I don't want to be directly involved before some here would say I'm qualified to talk about it. Besides, I was directly involved when a car pulled up next to me and blew the back window out of my car, missing my head by inches.
I've told that story in the past and am tired of even thinking about it.

And, those here who are beating their keybord to death in a lame attempt to compare Baja with toilets in the states.....save it. It's meaningless.

Woooosh - 7-24-2009 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

I want out of this snakepit. If and when I can sell my house...I'm effing gone. All the b-tchen Baja crap in the world won't make this a safer place. It gets worse daily.
It's dangerous and those who can't see this, and want to apologize for it, are as guilty as the cartels.
Lemme out of here.

What you are saying is that you have personally hit the wall and you want out. I can understand that and I would not advise you otherwise if you are convinced of your assessment of the situation in Baja. I am sorry this has happened. I can see that the fear is that your situation could get worse if they start looking for replacement activities if the dope is decriminalized and thus the profit deflated.

Dennis is not alone. For the first time we held a family meeting to decide what to do next. We don't want to leave, abandon or sell the house- but with two kidnap attempts, one extortion attempt one neighbor AK-47'd jogging and a neighbor boy kidnapped and the officer responding to him help beheaded- we are running out of options. Frankly our relatives think we are friggin nuts to still be here. And this is dead center in a tourist town. If the family had a vote I would be posting from Colorado.

Nothing is getting better here security wise. The police can't protect anyone while hiding from El Teo- who is theatening to kill five cops every week (he take this week off?). My family feels our staying here is stubborn, dangerous and selfish on my part- what if it is a young nephew or cousin kidnapped for ranson and not me? I don't think I could live with that. And this is my Mexican family mind you. The gringo side of the family won't consider a visit to talk about it.

I was looking (hoping) at this narco situation as a temporary problem- that Mexico could get it under control. That the war was important. That this area od Mexico HAD to get it under control to survive econmically. But they can't get it done. Mexicans really don't care today about the narcos business and what they do- they just want it to be safe again like it was before- with everything going on below the surface.

The windows of opportunity for baja norte Mexico is closing. Tourism is gone, real estate projects are abandoned and 3500 unsold properties make selling anything a non-option. Don't know how much worse it can get financially- but we will soon see I guess.

gnukid - 7-24-2009 at 08:53 AM

Dennis, take a trip, rent your place on vrbo.com or put it up for sale, go camping. It's quiet further south or north.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Dennis, take a trip, rent your place on vrbo.com or put it up for sale, go camping. It's quiet further south or north.

Yeah...I should do all of the above. Unfortunatly, there's nobody around to sell it to.
Anyway, thanks for the advice.

JESSE - 7-24-2009 at 09:13 AM

I think Calderons push is working, and working very well. Already many of the cartels have gone "underground", wich means they went from high profile everything, to keeping it low profile like its supposed to. Many use violence levels to determine success or lack of it, and i think this is completely wrong. The Calderon goverment went into an offensive in order to stop the control and growing violence of the cartels, not to just diminish violence overall. This "war" isnt about destroying the cartels, thats imposible, just like its imposible for the US goverment to destroy much lesser criminal groups like the mob. Its simply about putting pressure on the cartels, making violent leaders fall, and sending the message that just like everyone else in the world, there needs to be someone with a business mind first at the top. From the results i see, this is already working in many regions, including Tijuana. Where more temperate leaders are prevailing, an violent ones are on the run.

Dennis,

Your not under any threat, your opinions are simply opinions, theres many more websites where people really go into details about killings, arrests, etc. I am pretty positive anybody from the cartel even knows about Bajanomad.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Dennis,

Your not under any threat, your opinions are simply opinions, theres many more websites where people really go into details about killings, arrests, etc. I am pretty positive anybody from the cartel even knows about Bajanomad.

And, the high powered bullet through my window was really just some kind of friendly pat on the butt that I misinterpreted?

JESSE - 7-24-2009 at 09:39 AM

I doubt you where the one being targeted, if you where, you wouldn´t be here.

k-rico - 7-24-2009 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Yeah...I should do all of the above. Unfortunatly, there's nobody around to sell it to.
Anyway, thanks for the advice.

DENNIS, Woooooosh,

I'm in the market for another house in Baja and I have two friends in San Diego who also are.

Why not post "house for sale" ads and photos on Bajanomad and other baja message boards?

Woooosh - 7-24-2009 at 10:35 AM

The leader of the La Familia cartel was "interviewed" yesterday. He said they don't drive drunk, they don't sdpeed, don't allow meth for sale in "their" state, they work with the police to keep the streets safe and no one is killed that isn't a direct competitor. Can he run for mayor of TJ or Rosarito? I'd take all that for some restoration of peace after all thei AFO and El Teo nonsese.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/22/lt-drug-w...

"The suspect also told police about some of the inner workings of the cartel, which emerged in 2006 after breaking off from the Gulf Cartel, according to a transcript of his statements released by the Federal Police.

Lopez, who said he was paid 3,000 pesos ($226) a week, said La Familia regularly lectures its members on how to conduct themselves, forbidding them from driving over the speed limit, getting drunk or dealing methamphetamines within Michoacan. He said the cartel only allows methamphetamines to be smuggled abroad.

La Familia, which is notorious of beheading its rivals, has long released messages trying to portray itself as the defender of the security of ordinary citizens.

Woooosh - 7-24-2009 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Yeah...I should do all of the above. Unfortunatly, there's nobody around to sell it to.
Anyway, thanks for the advice.

there are 3500 brand new homes and condos to choose from for sale in Rosarito- why wait for 3502?

gnukid - 7-24-2009 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

And, the high powered bullet through my window was really just some kind of friendly pat on the butt that I misinterpreted?

Without making light of the issue, it isn't that uncommon for idiots to shoot out the back windows of cars. They are just drunk or drugged idiots. It happens.

Practically, where ever you go there are people like that in Baja. We can't live in fear of what might happen, the list is too long, simply continue and keep on keepin' on.

I have had banditos throw huge rocks on my windshield when I drove at night, cars were scattered to both sides of the road being robbed, I didn't stop.

And also once they shot out the back window. I simply went directly to the window shop - got it fixed and continued. It does suck but there are only two options, live in fear or face the fear.

Sometimes the issues seem overwhelming, to me that is a good time to go camping where all things come into perspective.

Either way, I am sure there are buyers/renters for your home if you would like to move or vacation, absolutely. If you are serious give it a shot-but try camping or visiting a friend first, you don't need a sign on your home to put it up for sale/rent, you can list it on line.

Imagine how much you would enjoy a nice trip south to your reserved table at Tres Virgenes, Jesse waiting on you hand and foot, pairing fine wines with delicate hordoeurves, Nomads flitting from your table to the next with news of freshly caught fish while you announce your next role in the local Shakespearean festival... I can see it now, El Teatro Presents Dennis starring in MacBeth!

JESSE - 7-24-2009 at 10:48 AM

LOL!!! P-nche gnukid :lol:

Woooosh - 7-24-2009 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
LOL!!! P-nche gnukid :lol:

Wait until he reads the "strong Armed Robberies in Rosarito" thread that was just started. Gettting worse here by the minute. We may hit 4000 houses for sale here soon if this keeps up.

[Edited on 7-24-2009 by Woooosh]

arrowhead - 7-24-2009 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I am pretty positive anybody from the cartel even knows about Bajanomad.

Based upon the latest comments from Dennis and Woosh, I think they'll have to rename this website Bajanomas.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Imagine how much you would enjoy a nice trip south to your reserved table at Tres Virgenes, Jesse waiting on you hand and foot, pairing fine wines with delicate hordoeurves, Nomads flitting from your table to the next with news of freshly caught fish while you announce your next role in the local Shakespearean festival... I can see it now, El Teatro Presents Dennis starring in MacBeth!

Ohhhh yeah.....I'm really starting to enjoy this idea. I wonder if Jesse will mind if I call him, "Boy." This'll be lots of fun.

[Edited on 7-24-2009 by DENNIS]

Woooosh - 7-24-2009 at 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I am pretty positive anybody from the cartel even knows about Bajanomad.

Based upon the latest comments from Dennis and Woosh, I think they'll have to rename this website Bajanomas.

Baja is still here but "peace, love and fish tacos" are now at your own risk. What a shame. Rosarito had so potential and was growing services as well as residents. Now they will smartly go to the real Baja- baja sur.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Why not post "house for sale" ads and photos on Bajanomad and other baja message boards?

LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH...........[that's me laughing]

I appreciate the thought, rico. kind of a strange suggestion under the circumstances. The image which comes to mind would be me selling my pit-bull [I don't really have one] to a man after I pulled the man's leg out of the dog's mouth.
Adding my past posts to my terrible selling technique would, I'm sure, produce less than nothing.
Thanks.

k-rico - 7-24-2009 at 12:04 PM

I was serious. This is a buyer's market. Some people go with the "When there's blood in the streets, buy real estate" idea. Crisis investing.

If you really want to sell, start selling, it doesn't cost anything to advertise.

DENNIS - 7-24-2009 at 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
I was serious. This is a buyer's market. Some people go with the "When there's blood in the streets, buy real estate" idea. Crisis investing.

Carpetbaggers!!! If I can't sell it for what it's worth, I'll sell it to the insurance company. Jewish Lightning will take it to the ground. :lol: