BajaNomad - Biosphere Reserve Permits MAY be required for private boats

Biosphere Reserve Permits MAY be required for private boats

shari - 9-23-2009 at 09:39 AM

I was just informed by the biosphere reserve secretary that all private boats that put in within the Biosphere reserve from GN-Abreojos MIGHT require a Reserve permit. Foreigners who are residents of the Reserve are exempt if they have their FM3 address in the reserve and are just fishing once in awhile for thier dinner... this is for mexicans and gringos alike. So tourists coming to sportfish in their own boat may need the permit.

So this means that you must solicit a permit between April and the end of September through the Biosphere reserve office or website with documents attached...copy of your passport, vessel registration, insurance policy, description of where you will be fishing or sightseeing, and the payment.

this gets sent to La Paz for approval and is supposed to take 10 days. You also need the daily bracelet permit or passport for each person on board.

So any visiting vessel wh wants to extract a resource...fish...may need the permit.
You can contact the Reserve secretary Marisol at 615-157-1777 or check the website for the permit application. It can be done online.

Yes, this is being newly enforced...NO you cant just pay a bribe...profepa can either give you a warning, fine you and/or confiscate gear. Profepa will be doing spot checks in all areas including La bocana, Asuncion and abreojos. :rolleyes:

although this may seem detrimental to tourism in the area, it's the law to protect the area of the reserve and we must follow it.

[Edited on 9-24-2009 by shari]

maspacifico - 9-23-2009 at 09:49 AM

Hola shari,
Do you know if a kayak is included if someone is fishing from it?

shari - 9-23-2009 at 10:01 AM

I have emailed the Reserve with your question...you definately need the bracelet...I'll let ya know what they determine.

shari - 9-23-2009 at 10:24 AM

Just off the phone with Marisol and she informed me that yes, kayaks do need the permit just like any other vessel...darn.

I can see this is going to affect tourism here and I am scrambling to figure out a way to make this permit process easier....perhaps someone could act as an agent and fill out all the forms for people, send in the payment etc. I found it a very very difficult process and I speak fluent spanish...I'm working on it amigos...maybe a form in english too...it will be something people will have to do well in advance if they want to operate a vessel in this area.

shari - 9-23-2009 at 11:03 AM

interesting idea....but the Reserve is also under the direction of the Mexican government...CONANP...kinda like a national parks system so I think it is the government, not UNESCO that has initiated the permit and fee system.

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2009 at 11:35 AM

would be much more practical if i could buy my kayak permit on same day I arrive, perhaps buy permit at local office or agent.

if people need to buy a permit for a kayak,, and can only do so by some cumbersome mail-in process... well, sounds like local kayak tour operators and charter boat operators are using govt action in attempt to restrict do-it-yourself-boaters, thinking they will be able to lead more guided boat trips. those operators should realize that boaters will just avoid visiting, and stay over in SOC.

newkid, the UN has nada to do with fees and fee process.

[Edited on 9-23-2009 by mtgoat666]

Natalie Ann - 9-23-2009 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
So this means that you must solicit a permit between April and the end of September through the Biosphere reserve office or website with documents attached...copy of your passport, vessel registration, insurance policy, description of where you will be fishing or sightseeing, and the payment.

this gets sent to La Paz for approval and is supposed to take 10 days. You also need the daily bracelet permit or passport for each person on board.

As is often the case, I'm a bit confused here.

Is the permit good from April through September, or does one need to apply for specific dates/places?

nena

Russ - 9-23-2009 at 12:15 PM

I have no problem with participating in a fee for use. Just like we do in the States.
However .... Here we go again, send PROFEPA in to fine you or confiscate your property before they have a reasonable system in place to purchase a permit, pass or what ever they're calling it this week.
They won't publish the new policy so visitors will know in advance because many will just go somewhere else and they can't decide what exactly the actual policy will be or how to implament it. Chances are it will be so dysfunctional no one but a PROFEPA agent can use it. And if PROFEPA does site you and you want to contest it you'll have to find the correct agency to handle that. This is another typical "cart before the horse" project. I know everyone will have ideas on how it should/could be done efficiently and tastefully and I won't go into my thoughts about that.....
I really hope this idea works out in an organized way to benefit the environment and the locals.

[Edited on 9-23-2009 by Russ]

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2009 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

newkid, the UN has nada to do with fees and fee process.

[Edited on 9-23-2009 by mtgoat666]

Exactly, again, cite the laws that authorize this huge privitization which restricts, fines, and enforces a rule only designated on "outsiders".

Of course, UN has nothing to do with local enforcement, *now*, they simply are doing a worldwide land grand without even stepping foot on the property, while they engage local populations to restrict each other, first "the outsider" and then themselves. It's pure genius all under the color of environmentalism.

Be very cautious about what you ask for...

newkid,
you are new, kid, and probably don't know about the effort in creation of biossphere in 1980s and effort in 1990s to protect San Ignacio Lagoon.
i think establishment of a bioshere preserve was great. i think protection from development, with sustainable land use (e.g. tourism), is best use for the area.

i can't figure out if you are: (1) a libertarian that thinks individuals have a right to do anything w/o regard to society, (2) someone who cares about preserving natural resources, or (3) a paranoid left wing libertarian. Which are you?

maspacifico - 9-23-2009 at 12:24 PM

I'm all for the idea of Marine Parks and Biosphere's..... If only I could run them all!!! I'm normal.......really! When we all had to have boat permits I couldn't figure out HOW to register my kayak, there aren't any serial numbers and I sure didn't have anything from the US to use. As for insurance..... Anyway, a Mexican government agency has gotten it's teeth into the area and they never let go.........citing laws? :lol:

I live next door to the Cabo Pulmo "thing" and have never gotten the same answer to a question twice....not even from the same guy.

jls - 9-23-2009 at 12:26 PM

If this is a bonafide fee like the fishing license, then maybe Vagabundos or Discover Baja could get involved.

Barry A. - 9-23-2009 at 01:00 PM

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON, gnukid!!!!!!

Barry

shari - 9-23-2009 at 01:28 PM

All the legal mumbo jumbo is in the Biosphere reserve and CONANP websites...which are tedious and takes alot of time to find what you are looking for and are in spanish. But it appears these laws have been in effect for quite some time but hadnt' been enforced except in extreme situations like the Whale calving lagoons where protection is obviously necessary.

Like many laws here, the ownice is on you to know the law...ignorance is not an excuse for breaking it.

What I am trying to do is make a case for making it easier to obtain these permits...somehow improving the system...but as you all know, change comes slowly and painfully.

Many say I shouldnt get involved...but I feel instead of complaining about something, one should try to do something to improve or find solutions to the problem. If no one tried...no change would occur and our area would suffer a decline in visitors....just when things were looking up. I know some would welcome that too.

I have heard rumblings that the licensed operators are pressing for these permits which is balderdash as all these permits were created years ago before any of us had them. Althoug I do think it only fair, if we need a permit to take a boat out in the reserve than everyone should need one....but what is disturbing is how difficult it is to figure out how to get it....which is what I shall be dedicating time to.

russ...the systems have been in place for a long time...just not used and profepa will be spot checking.

natalie...permits may be applied for only between April 1st and Sept.30 and are good for a year...maybe 2...let me check that... after which you apply for a renewal.

Natalie Ann - 9-23-2009 at 01:33 PM

Permits good for a year.... thanks, shari.

nena

shari - 9-23-2009 at 01:40 PM

the bracelet is just proof of the permit...the bracelet idea is so that one couldnt just pass over the permit to someone else...single use daily permit kind of thing.

I understand what you are getting at Gnukid and agree to a point....but living in mexico on a mexican wage is at best...marginal...permits, taxes, high operating costs makes it difficult to break even...so to risk our livliehood by not conforming to state and federal regulations is not possible at this time.

All I can do is try to make things easier, clearer so they make more sense.

tripledigitken - 9-23-2009 at 01:42 PM

When I hear of these policies being implemented in Baja, it truly tests the "feeling the love" of Baja.

This is worst than any permit process I have come across in the US. If a turist cannot get a permit when they arrive at a "Biosphere" location and receive it the same day, then it is essentially shutting down the attraction of going for most.

Ken

salvavida - 9-23-2009 at 01:49 PM

Just so I am clear. If I decide in October to visit the Biosphere area with my wife an kid, and we decide to bring a kayak, I have to obtain a vessel permit in September? Also, If my wife and kid like to swim while I go for a surf , all three of us need bracelets each day? I'm happy to buy fishing licenses for the three of us to be able to fish in a boat, although I'm the only one with a pole. This is really going to put a damper on spontaneously vacationing in the Biosphere area if I have to worry about being fined for swimming or fishing if I cant easily access permits in the area I arrive in.

Compliance/Enforcement

wessongroup - 9-23-2009 at 01:55 PM

Would also offer, trying to protect the "Environment" is a very difficult and complex charge and in most cases develops into shouting matches very quickly, as one is being told how to use their "environment" (how to live).

In the development of the Federal EPA, State EPA's in the early 1970's and the integration into the lower levels of government were not easy tasks to achieve here in the United States. There were hard fought battles with many and varied concerns which had to be balanced out, with an eye out for the reality of impending future time frames along with other regulatory agency's needs and requirements, (some under Treaties).

"Intent" is what one should be considering when interpreting laws and regulations coupled to the mind set of "compliance" rather than "enforcement"

[Edited on 9-23-2009 by wessongroup]

shari - 9-23-2009 at 02:00 PM

Salvavida...fishing regs say everyone in the boat needs a license...fishing or not. We now know that the kayak needs a license too...but i wouldnt worry about the kids swimming....as I mentioned...the lines arent drawn in the sand yet...things are rather vague...and they will use their criteria to decide when and where to apply the regs. It started with the whale watching lagoons, now is spreading to sportsfishing.

toneart - 9-23-2009 at 02:27 PM

"Finally, do you recall anytime in world history when certain individuals were required to wear a bracelet or armband determined by their "outsider" qualities in order to pass?" -Gnukid

Yes, it happens all the time; rock or jazz festivals, gated communities, admission to events, etc. If you were thinking N-zi Germany during WWll, that example is neither relevant to this discussion nor this attempt at establishing an idea benevolent to the environment.

In regards to enforcement, Mexican "authorities" have never been on the same page. Inconsistency between departments, within departments and even by individuals within departments, is the norm.

So if you are caught in a violation you would sit in jail or have your boat confiscated or be fined. What can you do, defiantly rot in jail while your lawyer takes all your money and fights your case all the way to the Mexican Supreme Court? And just what are your rights as a U.S. or Canadian citizen?

I agree with Gnukid's esprit de corps but not to the point of martyrdom. Martyrdom is but one method to demonstrate Principle. It is not for everybody. It is, however, a life's mission for a few.

When in Mexico do your best to comply, regardless of how illogically the law is constructed or enforced. It is what it is! Shari is doing the right thing in trying to get better clarification. I don't envy her task.

monoloco - 9-23-2009 at 02:37 PM

Sounds to me like another corrupt money harvesting scheme by PROFEPA. I'll take my chances.

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2009 at 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
When I hear of these policies being implemented in Baja, it truly tests the "feeling the love" of Baja.

This is worst than any permit process I have come across in the US. If a turist cannot get a permit when they arrive at a "Biosphere" location and receive it the same day, then it is essentially shutting down the attraction of going for most.

Ken

should be like a US national forest or national park. you buy your pass at a convenient entry gate on the day you arrive.

no govt does something as stupid as requiring advance permit purchase by mail unless they got some motive for making it difficult for tourists to visit. if they require you to write in advance to ask for a permit, then I am certain such is being done on behalf of local boat operators who think they have an angle to pump up business.

Cypress - 9-23-2009 at 02:50 PM

No problem with having to buy a Biosphere permit. The proceeds will probably, I hope, be spent making improvements, catching poachers, clean-ups, etc. Just make them easy to purchase and available without having to go here and there looking for them.

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2009 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I was just informed by the biosphere reserve secretary that all private boats that put in within the Biosphere reserve from GN-Abreojos MUST have a Reserve permit. Foreigners who are residents of the Reserve are exempt if they have their FM3 address in the reserve and are just fishing once in awhile for thier dinner... this is for mexicans and gringos alike. So tourists coming to sportfish in their own boat need the permit.

So this means that you must solicit a permit between April and the end of September through the Biosphere reserve office or website with documents attached...copy of your passport, vessel registration, insurance policy, description of where you will be fishing or sightseeing, and the payment.

this gets sent to La Paz for approval and is supposed to take 10 days. You also need the daily bracelet permit or passport for each person on board.

So any visiting vessel needs the permit.
You can contact the Reserve secretary Marisol at 615-157-1777 or check the website for the permit application. It can be done online.

where is the website?? got a link???????????

Point counter Point

wessongroup - 9-23-2009 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Salvavida...fishing regs say everyone in the boat needs a license...fishing or not. We now know that the kayak needs a license too...but i wouldnt worry about the kids swimming....as I mentioned...the lines arent drawn in the sand yet...things are rather vague...and they will use their criteria to decide when and where to apply the regs. It started with the whale watching lagoons, now is spreading to sportsfishing.

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
the bracelet is just proof of the permit...the bracelet idea is so that one couldnt just pass over the permit to someone else...single use daily permit kind of thing.

I understand what you are getting at Gnukid and agree to a point....but living in mexico on a mexican wage is at best...marginal...permits, taxes, high operating costs makes it difficult to break even...so to risk our livliehood by not conforming to state and federal regulations is not possible at this time.

All I can do is try to make things easier, clearer so they make more sense.

To be clear, I am a participant in the program and support the intended effort I do not however support the forced discriminatory polices being outlined in this new arrangement nor do I believe they are legal except as voluntary action.

It has been well established that Man and the Biosphere and World Heritage designations convey no jurisdiction and affect no sovereignty for designated spaces. Nor does designation convey jurisdiction to any other agency, this has been addressed previously, which is why I asked YOU to demonstrate under what authority YOU felt these actions were supported. You provided none. This has been demonstrated around the world as most prescient nations are adamant that UNESCO may not restrict access to by race, regional affiliation or economics to any person.

Biosphere Fact Sheet

UNESCO has no jurisdiction nor ability to command jurisdiction on any other group. Consider the importance of these issues to your independence, freedom and sovereignty. Each person must consider their role in protecting access to Biosphere and Heritage sites for all people.

Shari, since you are driving this message and support it, how would you respond if Marisol called you and said, from now on these policies only affect women with native indian blood, would you support it? Would you resist?

I wonder when you consider the actions and your involvement, what is the limit to your support to restrict access to individuals in your community where you are in fact a thought leader? When would you say this is wrong without jurisdiction based entirely on race, when they target, only certain foreigners, or only when the person they target is you?

I support conservation and access, though I can not support restrictions to access/enter a space previously open space or open ocean based on race or regional affiliation, nor can I imagine that you would do so either? Especially when these actions are specifically denied based in National and International law?

So, please rethink your role in supporting mandatory BioSphere bracelets based on race and regional affiliation or use. Promote open access for all people and equality for all races.

Your arguments have merit, however... your shooting the messenger

The conditions imposed may stink, however to live with a lot of people, there are always going to be "more" conditions that “stink” placed on us HUMANS ... "always have, always will"... (always liked that line from movie Platoon)

toneart - 9-23-2009 at 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
No problem with having to buy a Biosphere permit. The proceeds will probably, I hope, be spent making improvements, catching poachers, clean-ups, etc. Just make them easy to purchase and available without having to go here and there looking for them.

I completely agree, Cypress, but do you have to be so damned logical :?:

jls - 9-23-2009 at 03:13 PM

At least some, World Heritage sites do have restrictions. Try to go visit the Burgess Shale in YoHo National Park without a paid guide?

mtgoat666 - 9-23-2009 at 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jls
At least some, World Heritage sites do have restrictions. Try to go visit the Burgess Shale in YoHo National Park without a paid guide?

well, maybe the need for guides at burgess shale is to prevent people from looting? i would love to get fossils from burgess shale -- can i dig some if i visit there?

Santiago - 9-23-2009 at 03:24 PM

Shari: Does this also include Bahia Tortugas? I assume so.

salvavida - 9-23-2009 at 03:37 PM

Thanks Shari,
Looks like it will be 966 pesos per 7 days for three people to utilize the area beaches for recreation. Camping fees, fishing licenses, and boat permit extra. Or, 780 pesos per year on the annual permit. I'm all for supporting resource management and hope these fees make it to the correct enforcement agency intact. Might see you in October.

jls - 9-23-2009 at 03:55 PM

mtgoat666...trying to take fossils from Burgess Shale would be like trying to steal the Hope diamond from the Smithsonian only less politically correct. It is an absolutely fabulous place to visit though...you can touch but no take.

Barry A. - 9-23-2009 at 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

I was required to apply for 30 days + early, and pay for ($30), a permit to visit "the Maze" in Canyonlands Natl Park last summer with no guarantee that I could actually enter the Park until I got there, and no refunds. After driving over 1000 miles from California and arriving at the Ranger Station, we were told that we could not enter the Park as they were "working on the road", and there would be no refund of my $30-----------this after driving over 70 miles on dirt roads to get to the Ranger station-----------

By your logic, somebody must have "gotten to the officials" for this to happen??????

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?????

Barry

jls - 9-23-2009 at 04:38 PM

It seems like the discrimination is only toward tourist of whatever religion, race, ethnic background, or social group? as it is the world over.

Russ - 9-23-2009 at 04:55 PM

Shari, I think you are right to focus one issue in particular. I appreciate you endeavor. Access to purchasing a permit is a huge step. All the written words that are suppose to address the reasons for and the "what fores" aren't as important to me right now as the "how to". My next concern would be that the money collected actually went into the project. Or a reasonable facsimile of an accounting record of program expenditures. I've thought up about a dozen ways of providing a means\service to collect fees and provide info about the biosphere project so I assume it could be done without my input. Good luck!

wessongroup - 9-23-2009 at 05:04 PM

Well said

shari - 9-23-2009 at 05:06 PM

THIS JUST IN...HOT OFF THE TELEPHONE...with the Reserve marisol....they had an emergency meeting today and I was able to voice some comments and pass on the comments made by interested parties. I also asked lots of questions and the result is that I have been advised that the personal permits are now "under revision" and are being legally investigated. We will be advised shortly when it is all sorted out and desicions have been made on who and who doesnt need a permit to embark on the ocean in the Reserve....so stay tuned. I am going to send a letter to La Paz outlining the concerns and issues with this policy in hopes of having an effect on the outcome. I mentioned that if permits were needed, they should be made easier to obtain on site.

I did get the green light for people who just want to paddle around in their kayak ...they dont need the permit...sounds like the issue is fishing....extracting a resource in the reserve...although you will need your bracelet for recreational activities.

ON the racial issue...these permits/laws are for everyone of every race and color...not just gringo tourists....mexicanos as well...so they arent discriminating.

fishbuck - 9-23-2009 at 06:08 PM

As much as I love fishing in Asuncion during fall there are many other places to fish that are not inside the Biosphere.
If I thought my money was doing something to help the fishery I wouldn't mind but I don't have any faith in the Biophere. It's just a new scam to collect money.
I will probably fish other places now.
I love Mag Bay!

gnukid - 9-23-2009 at 06:12 PM

Awesome Shari!

msteve1014 - 9-23-2009 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
As much as I love fishing in Asuncion during fall there are many other places to fish that are not inside the Biosphere.
If I thought my money was doing something to help the fishery I wouldn't mind but I don't have any faith in the Biophere. It's just a new scam to collect money.
I will probably fish other places now.
I love Mag Bay!

If your not bringing your boat down (in your plane), it's still only the 5 bucks a day extra. Or is it the principle of the thing.

Geo_Skip - 9-23-2009 at 08:09 PM

Shari,

Thanks for looking into these evolving regulations. It's getting pretty complex with fishing license, daily use and now boat/watercraft permits. Obviously too soon to explore whether float tubes and surfboards (when used for fishing) will require a permit too. Still, we pay lot's of fees for recreational use of many "Public Lands" and may not have the special (sea life and other) resources what help make Asuncion so special.

As for politics and philosophy. There is a time and place for them, IMHO, that is in the streets of Berkeley (or SF or Sacramento) I'll be there, but vacations and other nations, I go there for enjoyment, unpolluted by talk radio fanaticism. That's one of the other ways Asuncion is special.

Keep up the good work, your efforts make our visits easier and more enjoyable.

gnukid - 9-23-2009 at 08:19 PM

FYI there is no small boat permit currently in Mexico. None either for tenders to larger boats.

fishbuck - 9-24-2009 at 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by msteve1014

Quote:

If your not bringing your boat down (in your plane), it's still only the 5 bucks a day extra. Or is it the principle of the thing.

Ya, it's just the principle. Until the Biophere people are willing to demonstrate that they are making tangle improvements to the Biosphere I am unwilling to give them money. Even $5.
I think that they believe that helping the people who live in the Biosphere is their job. Helping to develope and increase the population of people in the Biophere.
I don't want to help with that.

fishbuck - 9-24-2009 at 12:17 AM

Threats

El Vizcaíno Reserve is threatened and there is a great risk that in the near future it will fail to protect and maintain its biodiversity. The main threats include agriculture, overuse of groundwater reserves, extensive grazing, illegal fishing, and legal and illegal hunting. Future, potential threats include a mega-tourism/infrastructure project called "Escalera Náutica" or Nautical Ladder, and mining activities.

Copyright © 2004 ParksWatch - All Rights Reserved

I didn't read where sportfishing is a problem.

[Edited on 9-24-2009 by fishbuck]

shari - 9-24-2009 at 06:44 AM

When the Plan de Manejo was written up...Management Plan...there was really no sportfishing. I get the idea that the Reserve wants to get a handle on how many boats are using the area...and as mentioned collect a fee from them for park usage as a way to fund the Reserve e Management....perhaps this "threat" would come under thillegal fishing catagory.

Taco de Baja - 9-24-2009 at 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
Threats

El Vizcaíno Reserve is threatened and there is a great risk that in the near future it will fail to protect and maintain its biodiversity. The main threats include agriculture, overuse of groundwater reserves, extensive grazing, illegal fishing, and legal and illegal hunting. Future, potential threats include a mega-tourism/infrastructure project called "Escalera Náutica" or Nautical Ladder, and mining activities.

Copyright © 2004 ParksWatch - All Rights Reserved

I didn't read where sportfishing is a problem.

[Edited on 9-24-2009 by fishbuck]

Bring a fisherman I feel singled out and attacked by this permit process.

For example, where's the requirement for an agricultural permit?
a vaca permit?
water extraction permit?
mining permit?
hunting permit?

....Escalera Náutica?....A least that went away :cool:

wilderone - 9-24-2009 at 09:46 AM

[fees to be spent ] "I hope, be spent making improvements, catching poachers, clean-ups "
In your dreams. Mexicans - those who won't be paying the fee - are the biggest offenders. Plenty of hands out for the fees, but little enforcement of the laws re: poaching, encroachment within preserves (fishermen take their clients into Cabo Pulmo all the time - some get caught, some not, but they try and get away with it constantly); longlining, nets, turtle poaching, fishing over-limit, shooting dolphins, wasting bycatch, etc. Get real - you think UNESCO or INAH or PROFEPA collecting a fee from TOURISTS who are there for a week or two is going to impact all the illegal Mexican activity that runs amuck every day?

Permit

bajaponderosa - 9-24-2009 at 10:42 AM

So you are saying that when I come down in Oct. to fish with my boat I will need a permit to fish in those waters? Also what is the website address for these so called permits.

Thanks

wilderone - 9-24-2009 at 11:31 AM

She's saying that you will need the Biosphere permit for the boat, the boat permit, the individual biosphere bracelet for each person, a fishing license for everyone in the boat, not to mention the insurance for the car, boat and trailer, a visa for each person.

David K - 9-24-2009 at 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
THIS JUST IN...HOT OFF THE TELEPHONE...with the Reserve marisol....they had an emergency meeting today and I was able to voice some comments and pass on the comments made by interested parties. I also asked lots of questions and the result is that I have been advised that the personal permits are now "under revision" and are being legally investigated. We will be advised shortly when it is all sorted out and desicions have been made on who and who doesnt need a permit to embark on the ocean in the Reserve....so stay tuned. I am going to send a letter to La Paz outlining the concerns and issues with this policy in hopes of having an effect on the outcome. I mentioned that if permits were needed, they should be made easier to obtain on site.

I did get the green light for people who just want to paddle around in their kayak ...they dont need the permit...sounds like the issue is fishing....extracting a resource in the reserve...although you will need your bracelet for recreational activities.

ON the racial issue...these permits/laws are for everyone of every race and color...not just gringo tourists....mexicanos as well...so they arent discriminating.

Please let them know that the reason tourists drive 2 or more days to get to central Baja, spend the money to get there, risk the 'news reported' assasinations and kidnappings near the border, spend money with local Baja business people, wait for hours to cross back to the U.S., etc. etc. IS TO GET AWAY FROM ALL THE GOVERNMENT &%$#! and enjoy some time with Nature and enjoy what God has produced. THINGS we can't do so much in the USA anymore with the crowds of people.

They add all these 'taxes' on tourists, who have already spent so much to go there... it just makes it that much less attractive for the effort.

LESS GOVERNMENT = MORE FREEDOM & PROSPERITY for the people.

Go after whoever is violating laws, littering, overfishing... Don't punish everyone and don't cut your own livelyhoods!

comitan - 9-24-2009 at 04:00 PM

God help me I agree with DK, in fact well said. :lol:

David K - 9-24-2009 at 04:02 PM

Thank you... :yes:

monoloco - 9-24-2009 at 04:58 PM

This has got to be the dumbest idea I have heard, let's tax the people who have the least impact on the marine environment while letting commercial fishing interests get away with murder. They should get rid of PROFEPA and use the money for some real fisheries enforcement.

BajaDanD - 9-24-2009 at 05:20 PM

I sure hope someone gets it all figured out by the time I get down there end of Oct.
I plan on bringing my kayaks and fishing off them.
My friend is also bringing his boat. We have no problem paying a fee. But come on!!!!! My question is "To Who,What When,Where,Why and How---much
DAND

[Edited on 9-25-2009 by BajaDanD]

Skipjack Joe - 9-24-2009 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
This has got to be the dumbest idea I have heard, let's tax the people who have the least impact ....

The least impact, but the most money.

It seems that all of the recent gringo excitement at Asuncion has got someone's attention - and they're seeing $$ opportunities.

Nothing new here. Soon we'll be charged to fish from a float tube. And there'll be those who'll agree and will compare it to our private pay-to-play ponds stateside.

As far as DavidK's post. Yes, it makes sense, but has the usual political dogmatic lessons for us all.

shari - 9-24-2009 at 06:48 PM

wilderone....where did I say all that???

As I mentioned...as a result of all my questions and comments...this boat permit issue is now under revision...so I figure as long as it's in that phase....well...I imagine things will remain the same as always.

It seems that because we have the Biosphere Officer living here, we found out about this sooner than other areas.

If you fish with a guide...its' only a 46 peso permit...dont panic everybody.

wessongroup - 9-24-2009 at 06:51 PM

Oh no, let's get some press down there :lol:

BajaDanD - 9-24-2009 at 06:52 PM

No panic here just wondering
There will be days we fish with a guide and without one whats it gonna cost me when i fish from my kayak

shari - 9-24-2009 at 06:56 PM

dont know yet how they will decide on who does and doesnt need a permit...lets hope they take their time to decide eh!

I will pass on the info when I receive it. I am also preparing a letter along with many of these comments on the thread to the jefes of the Reserve. Perhaps some of you may want to submit your own letters as well.

David K - 9-24-2009 at 07:17 PM

Thank you Shari... It will do the most good to everyone (and the sealife) if they concentrate their efforts on the big time users of the land and sea and not the minority of tourist campers and sports-fishermen.

gnukid - 9-24-2009 at 08:26 PM

Commercial fishing practices, indiscriminate use of long lines and destructive drift gill nets severely damage pelagic fish and huka divers severely damage reef fish populations. These two practices are the primary causes of destruction of marine populations.

The region of Bahia Magdelena has been severely damaged by these destructive practices.

All the while it is publicly acknowledged that these destructive fishing practices are bad for the economy of BCS.

In the regions of El Vizcaino Biosphere, whales are in particular at risk of being caught in long lines and drift nets which create a gauntlet of obstacles catching all marine life passing through these dynamic coastal waters.

"Annually approximately 1500 Humpback Whales, highly endangered Blue Whales and 8000 Gray Whales travel down a coastal corridor (often called the H20 highway) from Alaska to Mexico. Their journey is peaceful as they move southward to warmer waters. That all changes as they enter Mexico, a country that has proclaimed itself the 'world’s largest whale sanctuary'. Here they have to navigate through a gauntlet of hundreds of gillnets placed along the Baja and mainland coastline directly in their path."

Mexico, under Fox, declared the entire region of Baja to be a Whale sanctuary. Hukas have been designated illegal for fishing under NOM-64, and large gill nets are designated illegal as well, on August 15th of 2009 large drift gillnets were banned from Mexico’s waters.

However, Conapesca has effectively ignored the law by issuing permits to allow air compressors, circumventing the NOM-64 law.

Consejo Estatal de Pesca y Acuacultura de Baja California Sur has effectively ignored agreements on bans of gill drift nets, saying not enough evidence exists and more scientific research should be done.

UNESCO Man and the Biosphere designation is significant to acknowledge the bio-diversity of targeted regions, however this designation has no implicit affect on conservation nor does the designation command new authority, sovereignty or power.

Due to the lack of enforcement, citizen run organizations have begun self-funded policing, such as Plataforma and Seawatch along with Conanp, who have stepped up to help enforce Mexican fisheries laws. Citizen run organizations are stepping up to inspect fishing boats, enforce the laws, identify offenders and publish this information which is having an affect.

[Edited on 9-25-2009 by gnukid]

wessongroup - 9-24-2009 at 08:42 PM

Well!! If you’re going to put it that way… “we don’t need no stink’n badges” :spingrin:

Bajaboy - 9-24-2009 at 09:00 PM

Wow-when I brought up my concerns about the bracelets everyone pointed fingers at me saying I was cheap....my how things have changed....

[Edited on 9-25-2009 by Bajaboy]

elgatoloco - 9-24-2009 at 10:50 PM

What if I paddle my kayak and catch and release? :-)

Thanks for investigating and reporting!

gnukid - 9-24-2009 at 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elgatoloco
What if I paddle my kayak and catch and release? :-)

Thanks for investigating and reporting!

There are no unique changes from current regulations at present for this Biosphere.

No small boat permit is currently required in Mexico. A sportfishing license is required for each person who is on a fishing vessel whether catch and release or not. Casting from shore does not require a license.

fishbuck - 9-24-2009 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
wilderone....where did I say all that???

As I mentioned...as a result of all my questions and comments...this boat permit issue is now under revision...so I figure as long as it's in that phase....well...I imagine things will remain the same as always.

It seems that because we have the Biosphere Officer living here, we found out about this sooner than other areas.

If you fish with a guide...its' only a 46 peso permit...dont panic everybody.

I hate it that you are caught in the middle of this Shari.
It certainly isn't the 460 pesos that is the issue. It's the principle for sure. At least for me.
I am fishing from San Diego this weekend with my son. Two tickets are $550. And I fully intend to catch my limit of Yellowfin and probably a dorado and a yellowtail.
Why would I want to drive all the way to Asuncion and be insulted by this Biosphere fee when I can catch fish without paying it at other places?
I caught 9 Yellowfin and 2 Yellowtail in Ensenada last month. And my son and I caught 15 Yellowtail in San Quintin at the end of July.
Tell me again why Asuncion (the Biosphere) is so special that I need to pay and extra $5 a day just to be there?
There are lots of good places in Baja with no Biophere. And no fee.

Diver - 9-25-2009 at 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
Why would I want to drive all the way to Asuncion and be insulted by this Biosphere fee when I can catch fish without paying it at other places?
There are lots of good places in Baja with no Biophere. And no fee.

If that's the way you feel about $4 then by all means, fish elsewhere !!!

flyfishinPam - 9-25-2009 at 05:59 AM

Shari-

Don't try and explain all of this, obviously your biosphere reserve is working out kinks ours is still working out kinks and its 13 years old! Most of the reglas make no sense when using the kind of logic that reasonable people tend to use. Beaurocratas in Mexico are a different breed but unfortunately we are forced into following their dumba$s rules. Best thing is to find out what is required and try and do your best to explain the rules and procedures. If you bend over backwards it will backfire on you, just don't waste your time. I speak from experience.

For any visitors that may be affected- If something is impossible to obtain just forget about it and go one with your life, play like you didn't know and just be polite and non confrontational with any official who may be checking. You can argue till the cows come home and it won't do any good, in fact it will make your situation worse. Just have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

flyfishinPam - 9-25-2009 at 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari

If you fish with a guide...its' only a 46 peso permit...dont panic everybody.

originally Loreto's marine park was charging 5 DOLLARs. people fought it due to the cost in dollars then they changed the cost to pesos, 50 pesos and we agued that it was still too high. Now the cost is supposedly 20 pesos funny thing is that we have to pay 23.30 pesos as service providers and can only charge 20! makes no sense? welcome to Mexican beaurocracy (I can't spell but don't care).

for those pennyP-nchers they don't validate these "boletos" so even though technically you need a different one each day how the hell can they know when you bought it? buy some and recycle them what the hell? when they do check they supposedly document the series on the ticket and then you better not be checked with the same one on another day but chances are you won't be checked. geeze I'm starting to actually make logic of this stuff I'd better slam an espersso

shari - 9-25-2009 at 07:01 AM

thanks Pam...the voice of experience!
this is how things went....
a fisherman on bloody decks asked a question about permits
I called the Reserve office....
They said yes, sportsfishers (even in kayaks) needs the permit...
I posted the answer(which was news to me)....
war broke out....
I called the Reserve again and asked more questions about exactly who needed the permit, commented on public opinion and whined about how this will affect tourism in our area.....
They held an emergency meeting with Profepa guys....
They called back at the end of the day and said...this permit is now under revision and we will let you know what the outcome is....

geezo...I'm starting to sound like Kat!! :biggrin:

so amigos....I was so shocked when we were told about the permits we needed...and nobody ever told us earlier about them...I just wanted to inform everybody in order to avoid any unpleasant encounters in the future.
I hate those kind of surprises...very costly....but perhaps Pam is right...(although as a disclaimer I could never suggest using the permits on subsequent days)

flyfishinPam - 9-25-2009 at 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
...(although as a disclaimer I could never suggest using the permits on subsequent days)

I suggested they be recycled while also pointing through systematic holes that have been pointed out and discussed with these types for years to no avail

Osprey - 9-25-2009 at 07:48 AM

This is faily new stuff to Baja. When I used to camp on any beach I would just pull in, find a place, make camp. If and when somebody came along to collect I would pay. After almost 20 years and scores (literally) of eco groups with eager grantees surrounded by volunteer police/protectors at Cabo Pulmo, they still can't decide about TUFs, Tourist User Fees, if they work, how much, who should sell, who needs em. The problem is: if the amount is negligeble, nobody is interested in collecting, if it is a lot of pesos, nobody will come to pay and play. At Los Arbolitos the fees paid to have a very large dumpster delivered (a large container was sorely needed for all that traffic on one little beach) but now there is no big truck to haul it out and it must be emptied in situ, taken out in several old trucks. No Dirty Job guy in the world wants to unload it so it is a mountain of a thing now, a smelly, growing monument to progress in conservation.

[Edited on 9-25-2009 by Osprey]

Santiago - 9-25-2009 at 08:08 AM

I myself indulged in a little "recycling" earlier this month, mostly out of ignorance. We stopped in GN and bought 2 bracelets and fished 2 days; should have bought 4. On returning home, I went to confession to pay for the sin of fishing 2 days with only one bracelet and the Padre kicked me out of the booth, sternly warning me to stop wasting his and God's time on minutia.
The local providers, as FFP has pointed out, are in a tough spot. And I expect those providers that were not born in Mexico, are female, married a natural born Mexican, have become citizens of Mexico themselves, and are more successful in attracting gringo dollars than other providers are even in a tougher spot. It's not that hard to watch the launch ramp and count customers. Especially when your house overlooks the launch ramp.....
My 2 cents is to advise that you do what ever your local provider suggests, and if they shrug their shoulders, then crack a beer and go fishin'.

Don Alley - 9-25-2009 at 10:08 AM

Loreto now has a FONMAR presence. FONMAR is the state agency that now collects, and spends, license money. They have a guy drive his little FONMAR truck down to the marina every day, 6AM, and he sells licenses on the docks. Wow, progress.

I came back one afternoon, fishing on a local panga, and there were a couple of FONMAR inspectors checking incoming boats at the ramp. I don't know who they were, local or from La Paz, or if they will show up often, on a regular basis, or rarely, and I don't know if they will enforce Park rules.

Looks like there will be some new Marine Park rules coming soon. Let's hope they don't get all goofy on us. :lol:

Helping out

wessongroup - 9-25-2009 at 10:27 AM

Hey Sheri, are you ready for the next jump...

I'm sure everyone will be well behaved.. just look at those eye's

gnukid - 9-25-2009 at 05:26 PM

Let's try to keep our eyes on the prize-conservation. This responsibility for conservation resides upon the community and users. That's it. The biosphere designation confers that yes this is a great place that we should care for and enforce existing laws. It's up to the citizens to watch over the area and remind ourselves to keep it clean and not abuse the marine populations through destructive practices.

We are aware that the greatest damage to marine life is from destructive commercial fishing practices, many of which are illegal by current Mexican Law, yet not enforced, partly because of lack of resources and partly due to lack of commitment to enforcement and to the long term goal.

Clearly this is an awkward circumstance however the job at hand is to document problems in particular with commercial fisherman and polluters, inspect vessels, take photos, notify offenders, talk with fisherman, listen to them and be aware of the extensive damage to the region caused by highly destructive gill nets and 24 hour reef divers using hukas among other abuses.

Conservation of this biosphere and every other should not be diminished as a discussion about bracelets or jealousies of some new self-appointed authority who claim that residents are free from compliance and only tourists must comply with contributions and commitments, which is totally false (and offensive).

The discussion should always be about what can we do to protect the area from severe abuse, we know the answers, we are empowered to identify and document problems, report fishing vessels who break laws-they shall be identified in weekly advertisements in the local papers and following review, permits shall be revoked.

While I understand that money is tight and few have resources to pay additional discriminatory fees, that is not the issue, there is no forced fee authorized, nor is that what this is about and frankly its a bit odd that the forcing tourists to wear a "bracelet" is the only topic of discussion by locals or visitors where as imminent demise and destruction of the marine populations is the significant issue, the causes are well documented and the solutions are well at hand if only the citizenry would step up instead of waiting for someone from Mexico city to make it all better, that's not going to happen. It's up to each one of us and we know what to do. Time is being lost, this is a critical moment in time to come together as community of people who understand the problem and begin to put into practice methods of conservation.

Osprey - 9-25-2009 at 06:06 PM

We would all be right behind you, Captain Arrogant, if we were all hell bent on changing each little part of Mexico or where every else we fish or recreate. We are too busy just enjoying what's out there. Our lives are short. If we could all quit our jobs, take all our cash, pack up and follow you around the world doing what you tell us must be done, we would do it. First, professor, I'd have to do a little in your face jaw jackin with you about things in general. Like how sure are you we all need your lectures?

Cypress - 9-25-2009 at 06:15 PM

gnukid, You're right!

Geo_Skip - 9-25-2009 at 06:16 PM

Osprey, You are the Man. (IMHO) Those who live life and enjoy it while keeping their standards intact and doing as little Damage as possible are the winners.

Those who Lecture or spend their time crying wolf or judging others, Well...let's just say that they are spending their limited time on Earth just wacking off.

I don't want to get sucked into a "My environmental/social justice Creds are bigger than yours, or Who did more to save the world" discussions that waste Oxygen and accomplish nothing!

So, enjoy a few Tecate's with Juan and Shari, eat a few fish, learn from the locals (Damn I feel like a retard trying to make my limited Spanish work...but I'll keep trying)...and recycle the cans when you are done. Think for yourself and act politically where appropriate. It's not so hard and it leaves tons of time to enjoy the free pleasures of this life.

Live Long and Happy, Osprey.

gnukid - 9-25-2009 at 07:21 PM

There are many success stories worldwide that show that efforts to reduce over-fishing and enforce regulations equally can work to bring back fishing stocks in both size and numbers to increase overall commercial production. For example, in Fort Ross Northern California regions are flagged off to allow abalone to grow to sufficient size over years and a seasonal window is enforced.

In New Zealand spiny lobster has increased size and numbers due to protected areas.

In Magdelena Bay, where fishing is significant to many people's subsistence livilhood, sardine factories are canning smaller sardines in larger numbers per can over time. "A one-pound oval tin produced for human consumption, just two years ago, used to hold 7-9 sardines. Now, this year the same can holds 14-15 sardines per can."

In the Sea of Cortez large hammerheads and rays have all but disappeared due to destructive over-fishing practices. The time to act is now.

Conservation is not about me vs. you or about putting any one of us against the other. We are all together as a community who depends on the resources for food and livlihood. It isn't about assigning a bracelet to tourists either. Nor is it about fines or cap and trade or a smart grid.

It's pretty clear that if a few hundred boats go out and drag nets and divers use air compressors 24 hours a day over the same spot everyday, the small fish will be captured as well as large and no fish will remain.

Geo do you agree about limits to sizes and amounts of of fish? For example, if you saw a pal of yours with huge coolers full of baby dorado females over his daily limit would you consider suggesting that's not a good idea? Even that would require you to talk to a friend about the fish?

Or, if you knew that 20 whales were caught in gill nets along the Baja Coast in one year would you ever object to so many nets?

Or if you saw shark fisherman using nets to kill hundreds of sharks just for the fins, with nets cutting across the edge of all bays catching all fish would you ever consider this might not be a great plan for the long haul, in order to sustain the population over the coming years ahead?

Certainly, I am not an expert, not at all, I simply a participant in my community, I like to eat fish and I want my friends who are fisherman to have work. Though I do believe that we can talk about fishing, over a beer perhaps, listen to fisherman, and considering the practices, consider options and certainly support enforcing existing laws when possible.

[Edited on 9-26-2009 by gnukid]

jls - 9-25-2009 at 07:33 PM

Well...yeah...this is a no brainer Gnukid. I totally agree and will speak about these things. You better understand that most people here know these things and are working hard to do the best they can. Now what does that have to do with the practical???

gnukid - 9-25-2009 at 07:46 PM

The practical aspects are, when we discuss the biosphere designation, we say Biosphere proudly.

We should avoid divisive concepts or placing responsibility for new conservation compliance on new arrivals or on the idea of a bracelet for new arrivals.

We have fishing regulations in place. We simply each need to tale pride in our community and each talk about the issues, accept the regulations, get involved and avoid getting side-tracked with divisive topics like tourist bracelets and fees upon visitors.

I am interested to hear about success stories.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to look at Seawatch and Plataforma and look for success stories there? or in other regions?

[Edited on 9-26-2009 by gnukid]

airmech - 9-25-2009 at 07:51 PM

Shari, I just passed thru Bahia de LA and saw the empty Biosphere office. Don't you have a connection there? Brian

shari - 9-25-2009 at 08:08 PM

Juan's cousins husband is the jefe there in BOLA...is the office closed or just moved perhaps? seems strange...I'll investigate. Tobi is a great guy, very fair and caring about his area.

this part of the coast is recognized for the fishing coops actively protecting the resources....and has won awards in conservation efforts for lobster and abalone, clam etc...protecion.

The biosphere reserve has been active in changing old habits by prohibiting people to land on the islands where fishermen used to collect seagull eggs (yummy)...also turtle kills are fewer now and the area is much cleaner than it used to be...so we do see some positive work done by the reserve...as well a protecting the pronghorn antelope which was very near extinction and is now a successful breeding program.

They have programs in place for raising awareness in the villages and are trying to educate the locals about conservation and ecology which has been positive.

We are very proud of our beautiful area and lucky to still have a healthy fishery. I would welcome a nice Reserve office here that had good educational programs for the youth.

toneart - 9-25-2009 at 09:36 PM

I think the goal of preserving the ecological balance is what is important. We each (hopefully) do our individual parts in whatever way we do them. Some lecture. Some dedicate their lives to the cause. It's all good. If Gnukid wants to lecture and/or be an activist, all the more to the good. That's his mission and someone has to do it.

Some need to lecture. Some need the lecture. Some don't. For most on this board it is preaching to the choir. A few could give a rat's a**. We all want to enjoy fishing in these beautiful areas with a minimum of hassle and arbitrary rules.

Preservation- priority #1.

Effective Rules- priority #2.

Local Mexican Nationals in the community policing commercial fishermen- priority#3 (Not the Gringos' job! Not in Mexico...it is resented and will be counter productive).

Being watchdogs over and being mindful of the bureaucrats and the bureaucrats' short sightedness to the point of self defeat- priority #4. (Shari's and Pam's job, with our eyes helping).

Compliance for the sake of facilitating your enjoyment and usage- priority #5.

My priorities are not set in stone. Circumstance can rearrange them. You can rearrange them. We all can make a difference. Negative criticism is not useful.

Skipjack Joe - 9-25-2009 at 10:22 PM

Preservation- priority #1.

Effective Rules- priority #2

Same rules applied to EVERYONE - priority #3

DavidT - 9-25-2009 at 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
this part of the coast is recognized for the fishing coops actively protecting the resources....and has won awards in conservation efforts for lobster and abalone, clam etc...protecion.

Harvesting shellfish by a tourist is illegal. If I buy my fishing liscence, my tourist permit, my boat permit, my bracelet and my Reserve permit can I at least have a lobster dinner in town?

I do appreciate the tremendous work done by the coops but don't some of their regulations negatively affect the locals?

monoloco - 9-26-2009 at 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
The practical aspects are, when we discuss the biosphere designation, we say Biosphere proudly.

We should avoid divisive concepts or placing responsibility for new conservation compliance on new arrivals or on the idea of a bracelet for new arrivals.

We have fishing regulations in place. We simply each need to tale pride in our community and each talk about the issues, accept the regulations, get involved and avoid getting side-tracked with divisive topics like tourist bracelets and fees upon visitors.

I am interested to hear about success stories.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to look at Seawatch and Plataforma and look for success stories there? or in other regions?

[Edited on 9-26-2009 by gnukid]

I agree. The last thing we need is a new platform for PROFEPA to extort money from tourists.

shari - 9-26-2009 at 07:58 AM

David T...boat permit would be a Reserve permit...of course you can have a lobster dinner if you are invited by a fisherman to dinner or order it in one of the restaurants. But imagine if YOU were allowed to take lobster...everyone and their dog would take them and there would'nt be enough left to support our village in the commercial fishery. You can be sure people would take them and sell them. It would be impossible to control then which is why there must be a 0 tolerance.

It's like kayaks in the whale lagoon...many people complain they cant take their kayaks out there....but if you let one...there would be literally hundreds and it would just get out of hand and not be in the best interest of the whales.

Sometimes it's hard to imagine how just you getting a couple lobster would hurt and that it should be your right to get some...but the problem is it's not just you...so strict regulations must be adhered to even if it "hurts" tourism....lobster and abalone are what sustain these coastal communities and must be protected.

Before the biosphere reserve was set up, the whale lagoon was not regulated and whale harrasment was common. People certainly did not like it when they started charging $3 to get into the area and the price went from #10 a person to $20, then to $40 including the bracelets...but this did not stop people from coming. Operators were forced to carry insurance and safety gear, have boats inspected, captains licensed etc. which improved the service immensley.

Skipjack...do you disagree that locals should be exempt from needing a permit? Local tourism vessels need extensive permits but the idea was to cut some slack to residents like the retired fisherman who rows out to jig some cabrilla...or kevin who paddles out to catch dinner. In my opinion, this is not sportsfishing...but is substenance fishing which is quite different.

It is my understanding that there is a reason why one entity makes the regulations and another enforces them...something to do with trying to eliminate corruption....like when the method of payment changed at immigration...before it was so easy just to give the immigration guy your $20 but this led to corruption and money going into thier own pockets so they were forced to invent a new system where you had to fill out the form then go to the bank...then go back and get it stamped. Ridiculous but it was the way they dealt with corruption. This is alot more dificult than the old day but hey....everyone whines about corruption and conservation so we have to put up with the inconvenienca and expense of dealing with it.

timmurphy - 9-26-2009 at 09:12 AM

well...we were planning an 8-dayer to the land of Juan y Shari,however,might have to alter the destination until some things are clarified.(I know this may never be the case)
will miss BA,but may have to wait till something makes sense and some kind of consistent directions are in place in order to follow the rules.

David K - 9-26-2009 at 09:19 AM

Tim... don't let anything spoil your plans... What if you never heard of Baja Nomad and/ or never read this thread... and just showed up there... Juan and Shari will show you a great time!

shari - 9-26-2009 at 09:23 AM

Tim...if you had reservations, please cancel them as we are nearly full up for Oct and some of November...but thanks for the comments, I will send them on to the Reserve jefes as proof that this will affect tourism.

I imagine it's fine to come down while things are in "revision" as there will be no checking for anything until there is a clear mandate. All the hoopla has worked to your advantage...I will post the outcome when I hear it.

timmurphy - 9-26-2009 at 10:24 AM

perhaps we will still try...shari,we were planning on camping on the playa and putting in at San Roque.My concerns were who we pay,how ,where..stuff like that Just didn't want any unpleasant surprises.I am happy that you will pass on our concerns,and thanks for being the fact finder.You deserve a muy bueno shot of tequila...and more.

shari - 9-26-2009 at 10:27 AM

there wont be any surprises for awhile yet...another suggestion I have is to only warn offenders for the first year...kinda like what Pam explained happened in Loreto...I think she said after the park was announced they gave people a couple years to get their permits up to snuff.

DavidT - 9-26-2009 at 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
David T...boat permit would be a Reserve permit...of course you can have a lobster dinner if you are invited by a fisherman to dinner or order it in one of the restaurants.

Sometimes it's hard to imagine how just you getting a couple lobster would hurt and that it should be your right to get some...but the problem is it's not just you...so strict regulations must be adhered to even if it "hurts" tourism....lobster and abalone are what sustain these coastal communities and must be protected.

Shari,
I don't have a right to get some and I'm fine with that, but I was remembering about this time last year http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=34920&pag...
the local restaurants were priced out of the market.
I know that the coop could not exist to only support tourism but I hope there would be a way for the coops to include those, including you, who are trying to build a repeatable, sustainable tourist trade.

Skipjack Joe - 9-27-2009 at 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Skipjack...do you disagree that locals should be exempt from needing a permit? Local tourism vessels need extensive permits but the idea was to cut some slack to residents like the retired fisherman who rows out to jig some cabrilla...or kevin who paddles out to catch dinner. In my opinion, this is not sportsfishing...but is substenance fishing which is quite different.

Shari, you keep defending the cost and application of these fees with arguments about the benefits of the biosphere. The two have nothing in common. I haven't heard of anyone mention that they are unhappy with it's presence. All of those who disagree about the fees fully support the biosphere.

What you haven't convinced many of us is why the people who benefit the most from this biosphere pay almost nothing to support it and the infrequent visitors are charged on a daily basis and asked to wear bracelets.

I don't really understand your sustenance argument, either. You mean that if I used the fish to supplement my diet in baja I, too, should be exempt from these permits? We all do that.

No Shari, this is not going to fly. To come to Asuncion and be asked to pay for something that everyone else is getting for free. Give me a break! That has no future. Imagine the resentment you would feel if you were standing knee deep with other anglers in an alaskan river and know that you were the only one that paid for the privilege fishing for salmon. That, in fact, is what they're asking from the tourist.

mtgoat666 - 9-27-2009 at 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

My 5 year old sometimes doesn't understand that life isn't fair. Skippy, us adults need to be a bit more flexible.
If you are visiting the biosphere, get the passport, it's good all year at many nat parks, and really doesn't cost much relative to your income.

shari - 9-27-2009 at 07:25 AM

there is a huge difference between an old fisherman who has toiled here all his life rowing his skiff out to the kelp bed for some calico...and the sportsfisherman who brings his big fancy boat and gear and loads his freezer up with as many (if not more) fish than he is allowed.

I believe it is common in National Parks...like Banff etc. for local residents to be exempt from park fees.

Many locals do not see the Reserve as a benefit to them...they resent the restrictions and obviously makes life more difficult and complicated.

I am not really defending the fees but rather passing on information...in actuality, I do not agree with them either....however, it is not in our best interest to "fight the system". What I can do is try to affect some positive changes based on public input.

rocking the boat in baja is not recommended however I feel it is my duty as a citizen to participate in a process that hopefully leads to improvements.

fishbuck - 9-28-2009 at 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver

Quote:

If that's the way you feel about $4 then by all means, fish elsewhere !!!

Thanks for you permission to fish somewhere else Diver. Fortunately I don't need your permission and neither does anyone else.

Iflyfish - 9-28-2009 at 10:55 PM

Appreciate your work and information on this Shari. Sounds like a work in progress and a moving target.

Iflyfish