BajaNomad

Mexico is outraged over influx of its own citizens

arrowhead - 10-1-2009 at 10:46 PM

Quote:

The shoe is on the other foot, and the Mexicans from Sonora don't like it one bit. Can you believe the nerve of these people? It's almost funny.

The state of Sonora is angry at the influx of Mexicans into Mexico. Nine state legislators from the state of Sonora traveled to Tucson to complain about Arizona's new employer crackdown on illegal immigrants from Mexico.Â
It seems that many illegal immigrants from Mexico are returning to their hometowns, and the officials in the Sonora state government are ticked off about it. A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora was in Tucson recently to say Arizona's new employer sanctions law will have a devastating effect on the Mexican state. At a news conference the legislators said Sonora, Arizona's southern neighbor comprised mostly of small towns, cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools it will face as Mexican workers here return to their country without jobs or money.

The Arizona law, which took effect Jan. 1, punishes employers who knowingly hire individuals who don't have valid legal documents to work in the United States. Penalties include suspension or loss of business licenses. Because more companies are complying, illegal immigrants are finding it more difficult to find work, so they are going home.
The Mexican legislators are angry because the influx of their own citizens is placing a burden on the state government.
"How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican representative Leticia Amparano-Gomez, who represents Nogales.

"There is not one person living in Sonora who doesn't have a friend or relative working in Arizona," she said, speaking in Spanish. "Mexico is not prepared for this, for the tremendous problems it will face as more and more people working in Arizona and sending money to their families, return to their hometowns without jobs."

"We are one family, socially and economically," she said of the people of Sonora and Arizona.

Wrong!
The United States is a sovereign nation, not a subsidiary of Mexico, and American taxpayers are not responsible for the welfare of Mexico's citizens. It's time for Mexico - and its citizens - to stop parasitically feeding off the United States and start taking care of its citizens' own needs.
I believe it's high time for all American states to pass a law like the one in Arizona. Perhaps that would solve many immigration problems that the U.S. Congress refuses to address.


http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090909/OPINION/90909030...

woody with a view - 10-2-2009 at 05:45 AM

Quote:

Mexico is outraged over influx of its own citizens


i'm outraged over the influx myself. welcome to the party!

edit: but the reflux brings a grin!

[Edited on 10-3-2009 by woody in ob]

k-rico - 10-2-2009 at 06:12 AM

Arrowhead posted a piece of blatant yellow journalism. The title clued me in so I found a responsibly written article about the same event.

Sonoran legislators oppose employer sanctions law

Sonoran legislators from Mexico's PAN democratic party said their state is not prepared for a mass return of Mexican nationals. They met with Arizona legislators at the State Capitol Wednesday morning. They said they understand the reasons for the employer sanctions law, but said they don't think all the consequences were taken into account.

"We are concerned because probably we won't be able to have all the resources to help in case the amount of people are too many people," said coordinator of the group, Florencio Diaz Armenta. The delegation from Sonora said they cannot quantify how many people have returned to their state from Arizona, so far. But they said, based on anecdotal information, they know there are two groups returning- day laborers and professionals.

Armenta said Mexico does have a plan in place to help those immigrants returning to their country, but he said it is not enough. He said they plan on continuing to engage in open dialogue with Arizona lawmakers in hopes of reaching an agreement. "There is a history of relationship between the states Arizona and Sonora," said Armenta. "We have families on both sides, so we have to worry about what happens on both sides of the border." He said they hope to invite Arizona legislators to meet in Sonora the next time.

The delegation from Sonora also met with LULAC in Tucson.

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/sonoranlegisla...

[Edited on 10-2-2009 by k-rico]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-2-2009 at 07:27 AM

Take Notioce Folks!

The Two Posts here is a Prime example of what happens Thousands of times each day in the News media.

A left Winger will Post an Article with all the words changed to "Charged words" then present it as being correct.

Then a Right Winger will come along and correct it .

Please everyone, teach your Children that there are lots of CHEATERS" out there, Teach them to Question, Watch, and be alert at all the various ways these Cheaters will try to Control Them .

It is their Future!!

Paula - 10-2-2009 at 07:47 AM

Hmmmm...

I think you have that backwards, Skeeter!

arrowhead - 10-2-2009 at 07:56 AM

I've posted below the original Associated Press article, not the edited rewrite posted by k-rico by a writer whose last name is "Gonzalo". Here is a key quote from the AP article:

Quote:

"How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano Gamez


Try to imagine an American delegation going to Mexico and asking Mexico to NOT enforce its own laws. Just try to wrap your mind around that thought.


Quote:

Delegation of Mexican lawmakers denounces employer sanctions law

Associated Press
Jan. 16, 2008 06:16 AM

TUCSON- A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora traveled to Tucson to make the case against Arizona's new employer sanctions law,

The lawmakers say it will have a devastating affect on the Mexican state.

At a news conference Tuesday, they said Sonora cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools it will face as illegal Mexican workers in Arizona return to their hometowns without jobs or money.

The law, which took effect Jan.1, punishes employers who knowingly hire individuals who don't have valid legal documents to work in the United States.

Businesses found violating the law face suspension or loss of a business license.

The lawmakers were to travel to Phoenix Wednesday for a breakfast meeting with Hispanic legislators.

They're expected to tell them how the law will affect Mexican families on both sides of the border.

"How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano Gamez, who represents Nogales. "There is not one person living in Sonora who does not have a friend or relative working in Arizona," Amparano said in Spanish.

Amparano said the Sonoran legislators are already asking the federal government of Mexico for help.

Rep. Florencio Diaz Armenta, coordinator of the delegation, represents the agricultural rich San Luis, Rio Colorado, area south of Yuma which employs some 28,000 legal Mexican workers.

"What do we do with the repatriated?" he asked. "As Mexicans, we are worried. They are Mexicans but they are also people's fathers and mothers and young people with jobs who won't have work in Sonora."

Diaz said the Arizona law will lead to the disintegration of the family, as one legal Mexican parent remains in Arizona and the other returns to Mexico.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0116az-delegations16-...

DENNIS - 10-2-2009 at 07:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Please everyone, teach your Children that there are lots of CHEATERS" out there, Teach them to Question, Watch, and be alert at all the various ways these Cheaters will try to Control Them .

It is their Future!!


Don't forget to tell them to constantly smell the air around them, Scooter. Reefer Madness is everywhere.

Taco de Baja - 10-2-2009 at 08:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto


Please everyone, teach your Children that there are lots of CHEATERS" out there, Teach them to Question, Watch, and be alert at all the various ways these Cheaters will try to Control Them .

It is their Future!!


The parents definitely have to do it since the schools no longer teach critical thinking or debate.
The schools "teach" to the assessment test and that there really are no wrong answers, and everyone is special in their own special way.... :barf: ... and still manage to have a 20%+ dropout rate. Of course, the schools have done this for decades and the parents themselves more than likely never learned about critical thinking either...We have sadly reached the "tipping point of no return" and society is doomed. :(

k-rico - 10-2-2009 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
I've posted below the original Associated Press article, not the edited rewrite posted by k-rico by a writer whose last name is "Gonzalo". Here is a key quote from the AP article:


Well that's better than the bigoted drivel you posted the first time.

"Try to imagine an American delegation going to Mexico and asking Mexico to NOT enforce its own laws. Just try to wrap your mind around that thought."

OK, mind wrapped.

Perhaps the Mexicans are surprised that AZ is going to enforce laws that it never bothered enforcing before and therefore force working families into poverty.

But, I know, you don't care.

mtgoat666 - 10-2-2009 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?


Because we are the economic imperialists that have been attracting Mexico's labbor for past several decades??

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Do you think the Mexican government has any responsibilty for its own people?


Yes. But USA probably has some responsibility for the millions of laborers we encouraged to move to USA.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The days of America being the rich land of opportunity for everyone are over... Mexico is lucky that we have a little extra money for some vacations to their country, despite the corruption and out-of-control mafia killing police, at will.


DK, do you think that GWB destroyed the US w/ no hope of recovery?

you say "mexico is lucky" to get a taste of your fun money???? sounds kind of elitist...



[Edited on 10-2-2009 by mtgoat666]

DENNIS - 10-2-2009 at 09:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Yes. But USA probably has some responsibility for the millions of laborers we encouraged to move to USA.



You mean "Moral responsibility"...Right? What good will that do anybody? The last thing anybody ever wants to hear is, "I'm so sorry."

Don't tell me you meant, "Financial responsibility"....:o:o

B.S.

Dave - 10-2-2009 at 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K


The days of America being the rich land of opportunity for everyone are over...


The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Last time I checked, this was still engraved on Lady Liberty.

It's why I'm proud to be an American.

JESSE - 10-2-2009 at 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?



Nobody is saying its your fault. Its simply a state, who has a budget, limited manpower, and cannot deal with a sudden rush of people into their space. They have all the right to compliant againts both Mexico and the US.

toneart - 10-2-2009 at 11:19 AM

It is not easy, but I am biting my tongue here. :rolleyes::barf:

You all know who I am addressing... so-o-o-o-o-o disappointing.:no:

[Edited on 10-2-2009 by toneart]

flyfishinPam - 10-2-2009 at 11:20 AM

I don't think Mexico is outraged over immigrants returning home, its the oligarchs are outraged. Those in power are threatened and they should be because good people are coming home. These good people now have ideals that they may not have had before. They see things in a different way now. They are speaking about their experiences with their family and community and changes will happen. They will put long overdue pressure on the government and make them responsible for their actions. The oligarchs are scared sh*tless. That is good. I am not outraged that Mexicans are coming back home. I am happy about it. Will things be more difficult? Probably. In the long run our sacrifices will be worth it.

Taco de Baja - 10-2-2009 at 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?



Nobody is saying its your fault. Its simply a state, who has a budget, limited manpower, and cannot deal with a sudden rush of people into their space. They have all the right to compliant againts both Mexico and the US.


Maybe California should try this excuse next time they are over budget....
Should they send the delegation to Washington, Mexico, China, the world? All the above?

BMG - 10-2-2009 at 11:29 AM

Sure took a long time for this 1 1/2 old story to create a stir.

DENNIS - 10-2-2009 at 11:40 AM

Why can't they just see these returnees as tourists? They'll be loaded with Yankee dollars and won't be staying long anyway. They'll go back north when the time is right.

JESSE - 10-2-2009 at 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?



Nobody is saying its your fault. Its simply a state, who has a budget, limited manpower, and cannot deal with a sudden rush of people into their space. They have all the right to compliant againts both Mexico and the US.


Maybe California should try this excuse next time they are over budget....
Should they send the delegation to Washington, Mexico, China, the world? All the above?


Don't give them jobs, and they wont go there. Problem is in good times they need them, and in bad times they want to blame everything on them.

flyfishinPam - 10-2-2009 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?



Nobody is saying its your fault. Its simply a state, who has a budget, limited manpower, and cannot deal with a sudden rush of people into their space. They have all the right to compliant againts both Mexico and the US.


Maybe California should try this excuse next time they are over budget....
Should they send the delegation to Washington, Mexico, China, the world? All the above?


Don't give them jobs, and they wont go there. Problem is in good times they need them, and in bad times they want to blame everything on them.


sounds familiar! :lol:

no, the problem is selective enforcement of the laws in both sovereign nations

mtgoat666 - 10-2-2009 at 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Why is it our (U.S.) fault if the 'working families' (of Mexico) are poor?



Nobody is saying its your fault. Its simply a state, who has a budget, limited manpower, and cannot deal with a sudden rush of people into their space. They have all the right to compliant againts both Mexico and the US.


Maybe California should try this excuse next time they are over budget....
Should they send the delegation to Washington, Mexico, China, the world? All the above?


Don't give them jobs, and they wont go there. Problem is in good times they need them, and in bad times they want to blame everything on them.


sounds familiar! :lol:

no, the problem is selective enforcement of the laws in both sovereign nations


The practice of relying on walls instead of laws is rooted in racism, xenophobia, or wrong-headed nationalism.

I really think we should have open borders, and if y'all want to protect your jobs then make employers verify status before employment.

Tear down the wall!!!!

[Edited on 10-2-2009 by mtgoat666]

Woooosh - 10-2-2009 at 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by David K


The days of America being the rich land of opportunity for everyone are over...


The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Last time I checked, this was still engraved on Lady Liberty.

It's why I'm proud to be an American.


yes, and Lady Liberty is adjacent to the LEGAL point of entry for imigrants of the time- Ellis Island.

Taco de Baja - 10-2-2009 at 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
The practice of relying on walls instead of laws is rooted in racism, xenophobia, or wrong-headed nationalism.

I really think we should have open borders, and if y'all want to protect your jobs then make employers verify status before employment.

Tear down the wall!!!!

[Edited on 10-2-2009 by mtgoat666]


It would be great if the current employment laws were enforced, but it isn’t going happen.

In any event, isn't is racist and xenophobic to say "Show me your papers!" ? :rolleyes:

The only real way to protect your job is do it better than the next guy.

Skipjack Joe - 10-2-2009 at 01:09 PM

... or for a lower salary.

DENNIS - 10-2-2009 at 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
The only real way to protect your job is do it better than the next guy.


If that's going to be the criteria for advancement, you'll first have to get rid of unions.

gnukid - 10-2-2009 at 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
The only real way to protect your job is do it better than the next guy.


If that's going to be the criteria for advancement, you'll first have to get rid of unions.


Exactly Dennis, the only way to protect your job is stop eating onions.

Barry A. - 10-2-2009 at 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
The only real way to protect your job is do it better than the next guy.


If that's going to be the criteria for advancement, you'll first have to get rid of unions.


Exactly Dennis, the only way to protect your job is stop eating onions.


Huh???????????????? No comprendo.

Taco de Baja - 10-2-2009 at 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
The only real way to protect your job is do it better than the next guy.


If that's going to be the criteria for advancement, you'll first have to get rid of unions.


Can we send the unions to Mexico? Maybe they could pick the onions. :lol:

DENNIS - 10-2-2009 at 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Can we send the unions to Mexico? Maybe they could pick the onions. :lol:


Good idea. Mexico already has unions for most everything. In Mexico City at the city dumps, the ragpickers who live in the dumps are unionized. There must be a million of them and anyone can see how the union has elevated their standard of living.
Just another voting block.

Bajahowodd - 10-2-2009 at 03:49 PM

However, the halcyon days of the American hegemony were marked by a strong union movement. It's an ebb and flow. I hope. Union workers made owners very rich. Their wealth incited greed. They could make even more money if they got rid of the unions. Or maybe just shipped the jobs overseas.

jeans - 10-2-2009 at 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, the halcyon days of the American hegemony were marked by a strong union movement. It's an ebb and flow. I hope. Union workers made owners very rich. Their wealth incited greed. They could make even more money if they got rid of the unions. Or maybe just shipped the jobs overseas.

Is Mexico outsourcing? In a Bay Area gift shop last month I saw a tag that said........
Hecho in Vietnam :?::?::?:

monoloco - 10-3-2009 at 07:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Dave, I hope it is B.S.

You need prosperity and freedom for America to be prosperous... and these are on the way out with the gang in power now.


makes one long for the incredible period of freedom and prosperity that reigned for eight fabulous years until last January 19th



:lol::lol:
You must be referring to the freedom of the banksters to prosper by ripping off the rest of us under the regime of no government regulation or oversight.

flyfishinPam - 10-3-2009 at 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam

sounds familiar! :lol:

no, the problem is selective enforcement of the laws in both sovereign nations


The practice of relying on walls instead of laws is rooted in racism, xenophobia, or wrong-headed nationalism.

I really think we should have open borders, and if y'all want to protect your jobs then make employers verify status before employment.

Tear down the wall!!!!

[Edited on 10-2-2009 by mtgoat666]


mr mt goat,
not being one who is thin skinned but please realize what you have just done. you placed a division between us by implying that my words were about walls and racism. re-read what I have written please, and re-think your tactics in future arguments because we are on the same wavelength and wish for the same things. ideals and opinions can be injected without the darts. suave con la persona, duro con la problema. peace.

Bajahowodd - 10-3-2009 at 11:29 AM

I have been a long time advocate of open borders for North America. Gee. If over two dozen countries in Europe can do it....

Unfortunately, since 9/11, Washington has been able to conflate the terror war with what has now become a hot war for jobs in this recessionary time.
So more and bigger walls. Passport requirements. Thorough searches.

Who really believes that Osama Bin Laden will be hiding in the trunk of a car coming across the border?

DENNIS - 10-3-2009 at 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have been a long time advocate of open borders for North America. Gee. If over two dozen countries in Europe can do it....



Are there any two of the two dozen countries in Europe that have such a diverse economy as the US and Mexico?
I don't know, just asking.
Seems to me that similar economies would be necessary for a comfortable two way flow of traffic across open borders. Mexico and the US don't have that similarity, do we.

Bajahowodd - 10-3-2009 at 12:42 PM

Actually, not true. Aside from what Rumsfeld called Old Europe, there are vast differences, especially the old Soviet Block countries. And although, we basically deal with three languages in North America, English, French and Spanish, the EU has twenty-something languages. Given their enlightened education, well over half of the populace in the EU speaks English.

I tried to post a link to a study, and a chart therein, displaying the difference, but Nomad appears to limit the characters allow for a hot link. If you Google Consumption and disposable Income in the EU Countries, you'll find that article.

Although it does not serve to support my point, I happened to spend time in both East and West Germany ten years after reunification, and the differences in lifestyle and infrastructure were stunning.

[Edited on 10-3-2009 by Bajahowodd]

BJSoccer16 - 12-20-2009 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have been a long time advocate of open borders for North America. Gee. If over two dozen countries in Europe can do it....

Unfortunately, since 9/11, Washington has been able to conflate the terror war with what has now become a hot war for jobs in this recessionary time.
So more and bigger walls. Passport requirements. Thorough searches.

Who really believes that Osama Bin Laden will be hiding in the trunk of a car coming across the border?


Open borders would mean all those people killing mercilessly in Tijuana would have quick access to the US of A. Do you really want el Teo in your neighborhood?

The Gull - 12-20-2009 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BJSoccer16
Do you really want el Teo in your neighborhood?


His loyal men are in Phoenix and San Diego already committing crimes.

...and what is worse? His drugs in your neighborhood (where they are already) or him in your neighborhood?

Perhaps if he did come across the border, US Justice might get lucky and Teo could get unlucky.

Southern Attractiions ?

MrBillM - 12-20-2009 at 07:35 PM

Just where is that Mexico labbor that GoatScheisse's talking about ?

Lobsterman - 12-21-2009 at 05:58 AM

Bravo for Arizona for finally passing a law to protect the jobs in that State for the citizens of that State. I wish they would do that in all the USA. Back in the 60s when I was a kid growing up in Arizona. Jobs were easy to find for any teen that was looking for one. I worked at a hamburger joint (Rickeys) during the HS year, then mowed grass for two summers (110 degrees) from sun up to sun down. One summer I went to Yuma and picked cantelopes for two months getting paid by the poundage I picked. About 60 kids from Coronado & Scottsdale HS stayed in the WWII prisoner of war barracks with no air. We needed the $ to supplement our family's income.

Do these jobs sound familiar to you! These are the jobs that are mainly done by illegals today in CA. It was really hard for my kids and I'm sure other kids in CA to find jobs because many entry-level, non-skilled jobs are taken up by the invaders from the south. There was an article in the San Diego paper last week where the illegals are complaining cuz there are now gringos standing in line for jobs at the Home Depots. The nerve.

Let's keep jobs in the USA for USA citizens only. Our days are over being a wealthy country. Let our kids have the opportunity I had to learn a work ethic and the value of $ at an early age so they will become skilled and confident to take on the world.

oldlady - 12-21-2009 at 06:53 AM

It will settle down. The House came out Tuesday with an Immigration bill.
The goal is to pass it in the coming year, they're up to about 100 co-sponsors and clicking right along. The high notes facilitate ways to legalize , through visa or citizenship most of the people already here and make entry less onerous.

Woooosh - 12-21-2009 at 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I don't think Mexico is outraged over immigrants returning home, its the oligarchs are outraged. Those in power are threatened and they should be because good people are coming home. These good people now have ideals that they may not have had before. They see things in a different way now. They are speaking about their experiences with their family and community and changes will happen. They will put long overdue pressure on the government and make them responsible for their actions. The oligarchs are scared sh*tless. That is good. I am not outraged that Mexicans are coming back home. I am happy about it. Will things be more difficult? Probably. In the long run our sacrifices will be worth it.


Great post. For many years I have been saying Mexico could progress more rapidly if the educated, activist Mexicans- who have migrated to the USA, were to return home for a while and help move the process forward.

Bajahowodd - 12-21-2009 at 02:14 PM

Have to ask just how many educated, activist Mexicans in the US are illegal? Legal status really dampens the incentive to be heading back South, especially when the economy is in the dumper on both side of the border. If anything, there are probably far more educated activist Canadians in the US, and in that demographic, far more are illegal.

TMW - 12-27-2009 at 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have been a long time advocate of open borders for North America. Gee. If over two dozen countries in Europe can do it....

Unfortunately, since 9/11, Washington has been able to conflate the terror war with what has now become a hot war for jobs in this recessionary time.
So more and bigger walls. Passport requirements. Thorough searches.

Who really believes that Osama Bin Laden will be hiding in the trunk of a car coming across the border?


You simplify a lot of very complex issues. To compare European countries that formed the EU to the US, Canada and especially Mexico is funny. They did it out of ecomonic nessessity more than anything else. Far the most part there was not the huge difference in living standards as there are with the countries to our south. To open our borders like between our states would take years and years of coordinating between governments, unions, states, professional organizations etc. Just think of the problems now trying to get a Mexican truck to be able to drive more than 20 miles in the US. Take every US federal agency and look at what laws would need to be modified to work with an open border program. If they can't make NAFTA work as envisioned how would this work?

Bajahowodd - 12-27-2009 at 02:16 PM

I never claimed there would not be complexities and issues to resolve. As for the EU, I think you gloss over the idea of disparate living standards. Do you really think countries such as France, Italy or Germany had comparable living standards to such countries as Romania, Bulgaria or Slovakia? There are 27 countries speaking 23 different languages. One thing similar to our north American situation was that what Rumsfeld referred to as old Europe relied heavily on workers from the East. So, there were people of many nationalities constantly living in western Europe, including Turks and North Africans.

Anyway, the way our economy has been "developing" over the past few decades, as wealth distribution becomes more skewed, it may not be too long before Mexico has a more vibrant middle class than does the US.

Mexicorn - 12-27-2009 at 02:44 PM

This is an outrage!!! Mexicans in Mexico. What are those idiots up in Campo and the San Diego minute men going to do if there is no one trying to get across the border anymore?

Packoderm - 12-27-2009 at 03:00 PM

There's nothing to worry about. Arizona is sure to go completely and utterly bankrupt without the illegal immigrant labor and will beg for the workers to sneak back in. However, if Arizona doesn't go bankrupt, then the rest of the nation might want to take note. It's funny how something people say is impossible isn't so impossible if we decide to take action. It is not impossible to stem the flow of illegal immigrants. There are so many things that people say are impossible or inevitable that really are not.

Mexicorn - 12-27-2009 at 03:57 PM

Yea who is going to pick those dammed cucumbers and melons this summer in that 116 degree heat? Oh yea, let me guess welfare to work. Heres a dandy Idea all those drug addicted crack addicted alcoholic homeless in downtown San Diego, LA and Vegas well sprinkle in the Phoenix/ Tucson crowd and crisis averted.
I love it when we Americans get fresh salad all summer long.

DENNIS - 12-27-2009 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
There are so many things that people say are impossible or inevitable that really are not.


Such as, unemployed, hungry Americans doing those jobs. Give them a living wage and they'll do it.
Personally, I don't care if a head of lettuce costs six bucks. The price will cut down on waste.

Bajahowodd - 12-27-2009 at 04:23 PM

There are two significant reasons that fuel the anti-immigrant sentiment in this country. The most prominent one these days involves the US economy and the high unemployment rate. The second is actually rooted in the fact that it just got too expensive to live in California. For half a century or more, the Mexican immigrants concentrated in the Southwest. But the high cost of living, especially in California resulted in a migration to the East and North. All of a sudden, folks in Dubuque and Nashville were seeing these strange people showing up in numbers. It made them feel uncomfortable. All along, the Southwest was friendly territory to the Mexican, inasmuch as a great deal of that territory was once part of Mexico. The culture of the US Southwest was infused with Mexican culture.

I suppose that if the US economy makes a comeback, and jobs get created, the animus toward Mexicans will abate. However, I am not optimistic. US employers have made do with less staff working harder and longer. There is little incentive for US companies to hire, as they are making greater profit due to lower overhead. It is, sadly, just another step in our inexorable journey to third world status.

Packoderm - 12-27-2009 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
There are so many things that people say are impossible or inevitable that really are not.


Such as, unemployed, hungry Americans doing those jobs. Give them a living wage and they'll do it.
Personally, I don't care if a head of lettuce costs six bucks. The price will cut down on waste.


I agree. I would rather see $4.00 heads of lettuce and $70.00 pairs of jeans in conjunction with lower rents and house payments. Honest work has become so devalued that it's hard to see how we haven't become completely morally as well as fiscally bankrupt. I know that there will be some people here who will quote Economics 101 by stating that it is better to pay the Chinese workers 25 cents an hour even if it means that some will go unemployed or underemployed here. We have tried the WalMart economy model, and it has not exactly been a resounding success.

Bajahowodd - 12-27-2009 at 04:52 PM

It has been for China!

Packoderm - 12-27-2009 at 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
It has been for China!


'Bigger the boom, bigger the bust: China is no exception to that rule'
Richard Duncan: http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_bigger-the-boom-bigger-...

DENNIS - 12-27-2009 at 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
morally as well as fiscally bankrupt


What seperates that from the current situation? Where is the hope and why? We are reliving the Fall of Rome.

Bajahowodd - 12-27-2009 at 05:49 PM

For the US, it's more like Sparta.