BajaNomad - No soup for you!

No soup for you!

arrowhead - 10-4-2009 at 12:24 AM

Quote:

El comedor del Padre Chava ubicado en la avenida Ocampo, le quita el hambre a cientos de personas, este día todo cambio debido a que la comida según mencionaron los voluntarios del comedor fue detenida por agentes aduanales de la garita de Otay.

The Padre Chava food kitchen located on avenida Ocampo feeds hundreds of people, but today everything changed due to the fact that the food being brought by volunteers was stopped by customs agents at the Otay crossing.

DENNIS - 10-4-2009 at 06:01 AM

Heartless #@^%$*&*%$!!!!!!!!

Mulegena - 10-4-2009 at 08:07 AM

Check that recipe-- is is really oregano and parsley in there?

Mexicorn - 10-4-2009 at 08:59 AM

Mexican customs agents right? Because I canr see why US CBP would give a dam.
Aduanas? hope I spelled that right or I'll be in trouble!

postholedigger - 10-6-2009 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Sounds about right. I've been stopped and turned away at both Otay and San Ysidro when bringing donated food for kitchens like this one.

fishingmako - 10-12-2009 at 03:24 PM

What is wrong with these people? I just don't get it? We were trying to bring in several truckloads of building supplies for the Slide Victims and the Fire Victims, and we were told you simply can't do that, no wonder People stay like they are.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-12-2009 at 03:55 PM

Mako:
That is Mexico>

It might be that they think by keeping the Goods out they are helping the Local Retailer{Who may not have the Products}/
It is just one of the "Mexicano Ways of doing things"

Mexico has resisted change for many years and will keep doing so/ You need to find someone you can pay off with a $100 bucks or so and get you through.

Skeet

Bajahowodd - 10-12-2009 at 03:57 PM

Pride?

toneart - 10-12-2009 at 04:58 PM

Pride...Yes! Mexico is nationalistic to their own detriment.

Individuals will respond with gratitude, but when considered as an effort to aid the country itself, their national attitude is, "We don't need your help. We can do it ourselves!" Collectively, they feel insulted.

This really hurts. We Americans are known for our generous spirit as we give from our hearts.

DENNIS - 10-12-2009 at 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Pride...Yes! Mexico is nationalistic to their own detriment.

Individuals will respond with gratitude, but when considered as an effort to aid the country itself, their national attitude is, "We don't need your help. We can do it ourselves!" Collectively, they feel insulted.

This really hurts. We Americans are known for our generous spirit as we give from our hearts.

You got it, Tony. Even when they could use assistance, they repell from it and I appreciate that...in a way.
I have a feeling that when the situation is well studied, they may have a point. It's arrogant and rude that outsiders will walk to the border and tell a country that we have answers they arn't able to figure out for themselves. "We, your saviours, are here to pull your asss out of the mud."
And, that's what they see and get.
On the outset, it's well meant arrogance on our part.

We try to help, in spite of laws and regulations that say our methods are wrong.
On the other hand, what kind of heartless government would turn their back on any effort to help their people that they won't or cant help themselves.
Is it national pride that allows the people to suffer or is it plain tradicional meanness because the government doesn't care, or is it just the ***ing money they may be able to extort from those who want to help.

It's not easy trying to be nice.

k-rico - 10-12-2009 at 05:57 PM

If you told the customs guys you were importing this stuff to Mexico to sell it and they said you can't do that would you be surprised?

I think not.

So you're expecting them to believe it's for charity? How do they know you're not lying?

Just wondering.

DENNIS - 10-12-2009 at 06:06 PM

Wondering about what?
----------------

Tony. Even when they could use assistance, they repell from it and I appreciate that...in a way.
I have a feeling that when the situation is well studied, they may have a point. It's arrogant and rude that outsiders will walk to the border and tell a country that we have answers they arn't able to figure out for themselves. "We, your saviours, are here to pull your asss out of the mud."
And, that's what they see and get.
On the outset, it's well meant arrogance on our part."
--------------------

What did I say that is in contrast to you inquiry?

k-rico - 10-12-2009 at 06:17 PM

fishingmako trying to bring in "several truckloads of building supplies" caused me to wonder.

I don't think there is anything more to folks being told they can't bring stuff in other than it violates their import/export laws unless it's done following some sort of procedure.

Same way going south to north works.

DENNIS - 10-12-2009 at 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
I don't think there is anything more to folks being told they can't bring stuff in other than it violates their import/export laws unless it's done following some sort of procedure.

And, when travelers are told by inspectors while trying to cross with goods for the less fortunate that Mexico has no poor people and doesn't need their charity......that's a reflection of import/export law?

toneart - 10-12-2009 at 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
fishingmako trying to bring in "several truckloads of building supplies" caused me to wonder.

I don't think there is anything more to folks being told they can't bring stuff in other than it violates their import/export laws unless it's done following some sort of procedure.

Same way going south to north works.

There are photos and eyewitness stories of the dire need, and relief organizations have issued letters requesting that these donated goods be allowed to pass freely.

It is not the same going south to north. K-rico is stuck on inflexible enforcement of importation tax laws. That is fine, but humanitarian relief is a different issue for which the tax laws should be excepted.It is a matter of the heart.

Given the appearance of relief goods being transported, coupled with the advent of a well known disaster, it's purpose is pretty obvious. Humanitarian drives ought to be accepted graciously by government officials throughout the world. It is a universal cause and it is the right thing to do.

DENNIS - 10-12-2009 at 10:46 PM

Tony....You're dreaming.

k-rico - 10-13-2009 at 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

If that was said by some customs guy working the border it could be that was his personal opinion not Government policy. And it would poor Government policy to allow agents to make on the spot decisions as to when to enforce the laws and when not to based upon the claim that the goods are for charity.

There are plenty of ways to give to Mexican charities and get a US tax break too.

Buy a $2000 worth of food in Mexico and try to take it to San Diego saying you're going to give it to the San Diego food bank that feeds the homeless people sleeping on the city streets and see what happens. I bet the US customs agents say no or at least make you pay import duties. And can you imagine if a Mexican tried to do that, not that they would, but if so they would probably arrest the person for some strange reason. "come on, the US doesn't need any help from $&&%^&$ mexicans"

This is in response to Tony's comments too.

[Edited on 10-13-2009 by k-rico]

DENNIS - 10-13-2009 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
And it would poor Government policy to allow agents to make on the spot decisions as to when to enforce the laws and when not to based upon the claim that the goods are for charity.

I understand what you're saying and I have to accept their method. Their only job is to control what goods cross the line and impose duty when required. It works in both directions.
It's unfortunate that the needy have to be penalized for this but, that's the way it is.

Tell us how one can make a donation of goods, not money, in Mexico and get a tax write-off from the states. I would imagine a dollar donation to the International Red Cross would work for this.

toneart - 10-13-2009 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Tony....You're dreaming.

Yep! That's who I am. :yes:

During my lifetime I have successfully implemented many dreams. While I am aware of bureaucratic practice, I resist injustices that counter my heart's path.

I do see the reality of this situation (foreign emergency aid being taxed), but I don't have to accept it. If I find a door closed, I push harder to open another.

Question Authority! :smug:

Edited by "dreamer" to add: You don't have to be mired in the soup to like it. I like soup!

[Edited on 10-13-2009 by toneart]

k-rico - 10-13-2009 at 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Tell us how one can make a donation of goods, not money, in Mexico and get a tax write-off from the states. I would imagine a dollar donation to the International Red Cross would work for this.

I don't know, perhaps an American charity can get goods across for Mexican charities. My posts were in response to negative comments like these in this thread that slam Mexico and its people:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Heartless #@^%$*&*%$!!!!!!!!

What is wrong with these people? I just don't get it?

no wonder People stay like they are.

That is Mexico

Mexicano Ways of doing things

Mexico has resisted change for many years and will keep doing so

their national attitude is, "We don't need your help. We can do it ourselves"

what kind of heartless government

---------------------------------------------------------------

Comments made by charitable people???????

Don't forget, I'm the sole gringo in the Tijuana Booster Club. Too bad there aren't more. The lousy attitude many Americans have towards Mexico is doing more damage than any hurricane does.

[Edited on 10-13-2009 by k-rico]

Eugenio - 10-13-2009 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Tell us how one can make a donation of goods, not money, in Mexico and get a tax write-off from the states. I would imagine a dollar donation to the International Red Cross would work for this.

Far from being a "slam" or "lousy attitude" against Mexico, these folks sound like kind hearted sorts simply expressing exasperation - they would like to help more. They're the good guys - ease off...

toneart - 10-13-2009 at 03:00 PM

Thank you, Eugenio.

No soup for K-rico!

k-rico - 10-13-2009 at 04:47 PM

Criminy, now I feel bad. I didn't mean to be hard on anybody. I just disliked folks calling the Mexicans heartless, too proud to accept help when it's needed, and the other negative implications on their culture just because the border agents were doing their job and enforcing the import/export laws. I thought folks were reading much to much into this when it is just a simple matter of the rules that are in place governing international matters.

toneart - 10-14-2009 at 09:36 AM

I have been thinking overnight about this topic. We are talking about a law; importation duty.

When I am affected by a law that seems unreasonable, I first get mad. But I contain my anger and comply.To exhibit anger can get you into trouble. But it leaves me with a bad taste. So, I try to look for the reason or intent of the law.

In this case, the intent is to collect revenue. Is that really fair when it deprives people in dire need for disaster relief? Oh sure, we will pay the duty and then what happens the next time there is a disaster? Are we going to go through all that hassle and expense? I don't think so. We are discouraged.

So we have a moral dilemma:
* Is it right that a law is so inflexible that it deprives people in urgent need from receiving what they need?
*Is this a law to be respected?
*Should there be an edict from higher up, say the governor or even the president to allow a discretionary exception for a specific event?
*Should this edict be subject to interpretation by the individual border officials,
*or should it be granted as policy and all officials be informed that disaster relief (obvious stuff; clothing, food, tarps, repair supplies) be allow to pass without taxing?

If not, why is it right?:
*Nationalistic Pride?
*Money more important than urgent need?
*Other reasons? (You fill in the blank).

And don't tell me, "because it's the law". That is the same reasoning that causes a person to drive 65 miles per hour in the freeway fast lane without moving over when traffic is zipping around him. :mad:

In today's news, there a little boy who was kicked out of school for carrying his favorite utensil to school to use while eating. It was a Swiss Army Knife type of utensil and had a knife as well as a spoon and other pull out tools. He had violated a school law against bringing a weapon to school. He was arrested and was facing time in a reform school. Fortunately, the little boy's innocence was obvious and the officials recanted their hard line.

So, the point I am making is that society makes rules for the benefit of the greater good. They are necessary. But, exceptions can and should be made under certain circumstances or events. :light:

k-rico - 10-14-2009 at 10:10 AM

Of course you're correct exceptions should be made for charitable donations. I made the point that folks were expecting the customs folks to make the exceptions based upon their claim that the goods were for charity, "claim" is the operative word. I believe that everybody who tried to bring stuff across and got turned back were really going to donate the stuff but expecting the customs guys to operate based upon a claim of charity is unreasonable.

An extreme example, let's say I have 10 computer systems in my car and I tell the customs guy I'm going to give them to a high school in Tijuana, should they let me through without paying import taxes?

There are certainly more thieves and liars than there are charitable people. That's the problem.

A legitimate US charity dealing with a legitimate Mexican charity can probably get goods across duty free, but I don't really know.

DENNIS - 10-14-2009 at 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

In this case, the intent is to collect revenue.

With all due respect, Tony, it's that and more. It's a way to protect the businesses in Mexico that do abide by the law and make a living selling imported goods.
If you operated a tire store and your inventory consisted of properly imported tires, you would be upset if someone opened a tire store across the street with an inventory of contraband.

Just trying to see the issue from all sides.

DENNIS - 10-14-2009 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
There are certainly more thieves and liars than there are charitable people. That's the problem.

References please.

toneart - 10-14-2009 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

In this case, the intent is to collect revenue.

The point you make is valid in a larger sense, Dennis, but we're not talking about contraband in this instance. My point was to make an exception for a particular disaster event and for a limited time period. And the goods would have to appear obvious as donations to a particular event.

To address K-Rico's concerns, if one were taking 10 computers across
and claiming they are for a school, they would probably have credentials to show, such as Engineer Mike. Otherwise, 10 computers would set off my credibility alarm if I were a border official.

I also realize that K-rico is concerned about stereotyping Mexicans. As Eugenio says, that is probably not the case in the responders of this string. I think we are all looking for whatever reason the border officials are, or why the law would be, so inflexible in emergency situations. We are all saying in our different ways, "What could it be?", because it is alien to our cultural giving nature.

(edited by the fallible for stupidity).

[Edited on 10-14-2009 by toneart]

DENNIS - 10-14-2009 at 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
we're not talking about contraband in this instance.

Technically, we are, Tony.
-----------

con⋅tra⋅band /ˈkɒntrəˌbænd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kon-truh-band] Show IPA
Use contraband in a Sentence
See web results for contraband
See images of contraband
–noun 1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported.
2. goods imported or exported illegally.
----------

It would be nice if on-the-spot, special dispensation could be granted but, the system apparently won't allow for that.

The crossing is a federal facility. I doubt they have much desire to countermand their rules of order for altruism. Sometimes they will but, that's the exception.

I think it's time for good samaritans to find another method of bringing goods to the needy. This one is no longer viable and people are beating their heads against the wall trying to appeal to heartfelt reason in a time of great need for law and order.

Just my 2.

toneart - 10-14-2009 at 02:37 PM

Yep, Dennis...that is the reality of it.

Bajahowodd - 10-14-2009 at 02:41 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but do I not recall that there were posts made here just after Jimena that noted the Cruz Roja would have to have made an appeal to the International Red Cross before any donations could be accepted? That Cruz Roja never made such an appeal?

DENNIS - 10-14-2009 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
That Cruz Roja never made such an appeal?

Who might know that?

k-rico - 10-14-2009 at 02:46 PM

Setup a 501c3 organization in San Diego, maybe the Bajanomad Baja Charity, perhaps establish an agreement with a charity in Tijuana if necessary to get the goods across, get the requisite paperwork done, collect the donations in San Diego and take them across.

Might work. I'll look into the feasibility and build a website if it's a go. I have the time and wherewithal. Any non-profit organization organizers out there that have done this before?

If you go the 501c3 (a tax code) route, you can solicit foundations for funding.

DENNIS - 10-14-2009 at 02:54 PM

Hey k-rico........check your U2U in five minutes.

toneart - 10-14-2009 at 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Setup a 501c3 organization in San Diego, maybe the Bajanomad Baja Charity, perhaps establish an agreement with a charity in Tijuana if necessary to get the goods across, get the requisite paperwork done, collect the donations in San Diego and take them across.

Might work. I'll look into the feasibility and build a website if it's a go. I have the time and wherewithal. Any non-profit organization organizers out there that have done this before?

If you go the 501c3 (a tax code) route, you can solicit foundations for funding.

That is what Engineer Mike (Mike Fleming)does for his Mulege Scholarship Fund. Also the various Rotary Clubs. That sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't, thus the lament that has been vocalized in this thread. Same for unaffiliated individuals; problems at the border.

As you say, there are options: send cash through a fund; wait and buy goods locally. They don't work if you are going to a disaster area where there is nothing left on the store shelves, i.e. flooded and ruined. The problem is, the people need relief immediately.

The Mexican military were the first responders and did an excellent job. But lots more was needed. Many many generous people responded by vehicle and by air, and by setting up collection depots along the way. If there was tax to be paid, people paid it. Mike even offered to pay the tax if people bringing relief goods to Mulege were taxed.

I think it is good for us to discuss this and maybe we will be better equipped next time with a plan of action in advance. :light:

There might even be some soup in it for you. :spingrin:

Eugenio - 10-15-2009 at 11:48 AM

I'd be the first to admit that I'm a paranoic - but I really prefer to do my donating from my hand directly to where I want it to go. For example I just recently found out that a good friend of mine in a semi-governmental position in Mexicali set up a raffle for scholarships (prize was a computer) - and miracles of miracles another friend of his won. I found out because my friend was complaining that the guy that won hadn't yet paid him for the computer.

Anyway - up to now I've been able to talk to the aduana folks and reach some type of agreement - usually it's a "pasa" with eyes rolling (as if to say "just don't ask me to do it again") - on other occasions a few bucks (like 25-50) will get a truck across. But mostly I just do it "estilo hormiga" (small quantities) and there's no need to say anything.

Of course none of this works when there's a major disaster and large quantities are needed like what's happened in Mulege. Which is the theme here I guess.

Eugenio - 10-15-2009 at 12:01 PM

I should add I don't have any experience with the new aduana people that were put in place - what - a couple of months ago? Maybe that's why the folks that run the soup kitchen weren't able to pass.

I'm sure that it will be just a matter of time before the system falls back into it's same old habits.

nanaimoite - 11-10-2009 at 09:33 AM

Just read all your write ups about bringing stuff across the line. I'm befuddled. We bought a wack of shoes and stuff for kids from Wallyworld [Walmart] and our Legion [VFW] has collected 40 pr of eye glasses. I'm I to understand I maybe prevented from bring it across or I may have to duty?

DENNIS - 11-10-2009 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanaimoite
We bought a wack of shoes and stuff for kids from Wallyworld [Walmart]

Yep...probably. What's a "Wack?" If that's a bunch, you can probably count on it, especially if new. Depends on the particular moment at the gate. Nothing there is guaranteed.

nanaimoite - 11-10-2009 at 12:55 PM

[wack] 24 pairs of shoes, 40 coloring book, crayon, and used eye glasses.
Dennis you say, probably which way? No go, or duty.

DENNIS - 11-10-2009 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanaimoite
[wack] 24 pairs of shoes, 40 coloring book, crayon, and used eye glasses.
Dennis you say, probably which way? No go, or duty.

It's all a go. The question is duty. You don't have that much merchandise, really, but the value is over the allowable limit, especially since it's new.
Just pack it in an old suitcase with your clothes and cross your fingers. That's what I would do with the amount of goods you have. If they happen to come across the stuff, give them a mild explaination without appealing to their sense of charity. They're trained not to have one.
Go for it.

nanaimoite - 11-10-2009 at 08:11 PM

Thanks for the info. If you don't try the answer is no any way hey. Oops thats the Canadian coming out in me.