BajaNomad - Sand under the Cabo San Lucas Arch?

Sand under the Cabo San Lucas Arch?

Pages: 1 2

BajaWarrior - 10-11-2009 at 07:48 AM

I took this photo in June of 1989 when there was sand under the Arch. Two years before this when I was down I drove a small boat under it trolling for Sierra and again two years after this photo there was water under it.

How often is there sand under it? When was the last time?

BW

mtgoat666 - 10-11-2009 at 07:53 AM

Global warming, higher sea level, beach will be no more :lol:

bajajudy - 10-11-2009 at 08:04 AM

THEY say it happens every 8 years. I also have photos of people under the arch.
When I saw this post I was hoping for pix of the sand cascade that people scuba dive on. Anyone know anything about that?

Baja&Back - 10-11-2009 at 08:17 AM

Here ya go, Judy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVXWI8s9v0

It's quite amazing. Only 180 feet off of Lover's Beach, and 60 feet deep, the sand washed across from Divorce Beach falls over a cliff 2000 feet deep, creating a slow motion "waterfall". That's the closest precipice of that size to land anywhere in the world.

David K - 10-11-2009 at 08:25 AM

Here's a photo my mom or dad took when we went out fishing in a panga... July 1966. (so much for sea levels rising :lol:

)

capt. mike - 10-11-2009 at 08:33 AM

with a little imagination that 1st pic looks like a pre historic animal or dinosaur like a triceratops grazing.

Bajahowodd - 10-11-2009 at 01:36 PM

It's a tidal phenomenon. I've kayaked through the arch several times, and on rare occasions, walked through it.

karenintx - 10-12-2009 at 09:37 AM

You are right Capt. Mike...in Cabo we do call it "The Drinking Dragon".

Heather - 10-12-2009 at 01:19 PM

I thought it was a burro drinking!

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior

How often is there sand under it? When was the last time?

BW

Ask David K.

He's an authority on the subject. :lol:

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 02:16 PM

in fact, .... :lol:

... he's an authority on pretty much everything.

Don't bother posting question here any more.

Remove the Question and Answers forum from the website.

Just go straight to DavidK. He's the Wikipedia of baja california.

David K - 10-12-2009 at 02:24 PM

Thanks Igor... I try to help with answers that I personally know or that I can provide from sources I trust. Only because I love Baja and because there are a few who appreciate what I do...

Now, I thought it was interesting that over 40 years ago, the arch was in the water... and the new photo shows it surrounded by 'land' (sand)! What happened to rising sea levels and global warming hysteria? LOL

Of course, the natural tide changes are the reason...

Al Gore is right: Atlantis is full of beautiful women

mtgoat666 - 10-12-2009 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks Igor... I try to help with answers that I personally know or that I can provide from sources I trust.

Now, I thought it was interesting that over 40 years ago, the arch was in the water... and the new photo shows it surrounded by 'land' (sand)! What happened to rising sea levels and global warming hysteria?

Of course, the natural tide changes are the reason...

Tides are not the primary reason. Primary reason for sand beach agggradation/erosion is storm events. Storms are most often responsible for depositing or eroding large amounts of sediment.

Responding to DKs sea level monitoring and his "trusted" sources is like peeing into the wind... :lol:

Yes we can! :bounce:

Peace out! :bounce:

woody with a view - 10-12-2009 at 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Yes we can! :bounce:

Peace out! :bounce:

somewhere in here is a funny story, full o truth! :lol:

BajaWarrior - 10-12-2009 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
in fact, .... :lol:

David, I keep hearing this from a few Nomads, that you know everything. Can you tell me why the sky in Baja is so blue? :tumble:

As far as the sand under the Arch, I'm going with storm events that strip the sand and gentle waves that deposit the sand.

[Edited on 10-13-2009 by BajaWarrior]

Crusoe - 10-12-2009 at 03:53 PM

No sand beach anywhere ever remains the same.They are always changing with the seasons in elevation and visual structure, due to changing currents and the wind and tide influences. ++C++

Bajahowodd - 10-12-2009 at 03:55 PM

I've never subscribed to the storm/ erosion/ redepositing stuff because if one checks the history, it appears that the land is exposed under the arch every four years. That certainly sound to me more like exceptional tides.

David K - 10-12-2009 at 04:13 PM

Chuck... it is so blue because everything is better in Baja! :lol:

Now, for you rising sea level fans... look at the distance from the sea ('66)and land ('09) to the arch... You will notice that both sand and sea level look to be the same distance below... ie. one replaces the other either by daily tidal movement or seasonal differences in tides and sand.

If there was a gradual change in sea levels, over 40 years would be able to see it. The salt flats next to Baja lagoons would be under water all the time... and I wouldn't be able to drive onto Shell Island... as the hard land west of it (not the sand beach on the east side) is a tidal salt flat... It hasn't changed in over 30 years.

mtgoat666 - 10-12-2009 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Chuck... it is so blue because everything is better in Baja! :lol:

DK, like I said earlier, Al Gore is right: Atlantis is full of beautiful women; and you are wrongo boyo :lol:

David K - 10-12-2009 at 04:37 PM

You do know algore is lying, right?

The graph he uses in his movie to show the temperture changes on earth (going up and down long before man burned fossil fuels) with a CO2 in the atmosphere levels graph that mathch the up/ down changes.... to make his arguement, is flawed from the get go...

He doesn't mention that the CO2 level rise hundreds of years AFTER the tempertures rise! They fall just the same way... Any scientist would conclude from the gathered data that a warming earth causes higher CO2 levels... not the other way around! When the earth cools, the oceans absorb the excess CO2 that the global heating created... There is an average 800 years period due to the size and depth of the ocean.

What causes the global heating...? Mostly solar activity, as it does ever day the sun rises!

We cannot control sunspots or solar flares... just like we cannot stop volcanos from erupting (which out-produce all of man's greenhouse gasses).

The earth is still here, the ocean levels are fine, nothing man can do will change what Nature has in store for us. We are not mightier than God/ Mother Nature/ the sun or the president of the USA.

This is the only earth we got, get used to it! :spingrin:

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Now, for you rising sea level fans... look at the distance from the sea ('66)and land ('09) to the arch... You will notice that both sand and sea level look to be the same distance below... ie. one replaces the other either by daily tidal movement or seasonal differences in tides and sand.

If there was a gradual change in sea levels, over 40 years would be able to see it. The salt flats next to Baja lagoons would be under water all the time... and I wouldn't be able to drive onto Shell Island... as the hard land west of it (not the sand beach on the east side) is a tidal salt flat... It hasn't changed in over 30 years.

What a keen mind!!! :lol:

There you have it folks. No need to discuss it any further. Baja Wikipedia has just explained yet another phenomena.

And it's all so simple. I really think you should be introduced to the folks at Scripps. Poor fools. Wasting away over there with those silly instruments. When the truth was so blatantly obvious all along.

YOU'RE a phenomena, Dave. You're a gift to all who love baja.

Bajahowodd - 10-12-2009 at 04:56 PM

How in the .... did Al Gore become part of this thread, lest someone had a misguided agenda.

David K - 10-12-2009 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
How in the .... did Al Gore become part of this thread, lest someone had a misguided agenda.

the mtgoat666 brought him up, as he (algore) is not telling the truth, I want my friends to hear some facts. If you or Igor don't like my replies,,, then please don't bother reading them... I am trying to play nice...

Natalie Ann - 10-12-2009 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
... I am trying to play nice...

No you're not, David. You're playing the same way you always do. You bring up politics, call people liars and other names... then when someone responds in kind, you take the tack that the problem is them. You are often haughty and/or rude in your posts, yet seem to expect respect in return.

You have referred to many of us as 'hating' you. And it's so not true, David. I don't hate you. I do hate your behavior much of the time.

Now.... can't we all just get along?! :lol:

Natalie Ann

mtgoat666 - 10-12-2009 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
This is the only earth we got, get used to it!

DK,
I say it differently: This is the only earth we got, don't screw it up!

Yes we can!

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
If you or Igor don't like my replies,,, then please don't bother reading them... I am trying to play nice...

No David,

This is exactly the kind of post you do encourage.

Look back at the archives. You are constantly embroiled in this sort of thing. In fact, you relish it.

When facts are given to you you continue to ignore them. I am no longer going to argue with your nonsensical observations. I will abuse you every time I read them.

Now you have a choice. If you write garbage and you will be treated as such.

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 08:38 PM

Here, get this text book on how beaches are formed.

It's only $11 on Amazon.

Read it and stop writing your misinformation on this board.

You want respect?

Then take responsibility for you write. Get educated.

Waves and Beaches - Bascom

BajaWarrior - 10-12-2009 at 09:38 PM

Lets try to keep this on the lighter side please...

Now, I know that the local beaches here in San Diego lose sand in the winter and gain it in the summer...

Could there be any truth to this in Cabo? Someone mentioned it was every 4 years that the sand appears under the Arch.

I would say that the majority of us don't get down to Cabo regularly so what might a long time resident say on this subject.

Play nice!

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Play nice!

Mr Warrior,

If you have read DavidK's previous posts it is clear that the man doesn't want to learn anything on the subject.

Beach dynamics is not rocket science. You only need 3 elements and you're in business.
1. a solid substrate
2. sediment
3. energy

The link I have posted to Mr K has been posted in the past. This is a common textbook that every sophomore in college reads. The research was done during the Eisenhower administration. It is straight science. It is as basic as the continental drift theory. There is no politcal agenda here. The work has been simplified and taught to kids now in middle school.

Why the denial by Mr K? Because there is no agenda. Mr K has a cause in life and is willing to bend facts he comes across to support it.

I am sorry Bajawarrior, but I have very little respect for that.

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2009 at 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Could there be any truth to this in Cabo?

It's as true in Cabo as it is in the Cape of Good Hope.

David K - 10-13-2009 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Play nice!

I don't know what you are reading that you THINK I said about Cabo... but it is me who said it is NOT rising sea levels , but instead those beach dynamics... Here is my quote before the goat twisted it into a global warming argument:

"Now, for you rising sea level fans... look at the distance from the sea ('66)and land ('09) to the arch... You will notice that both sand and sea level look to be the same distance below... ie. one replaces the other either by daily tidal movement or seasonal differences in tides and sand."

MtGoat666 brought up Gore... and because THAT is political and not science, I provided a tiny bit of evidence, hoping to enlighten you and not flame up the typical gang here who like to silence opposition (aka 'fairness doctrine').

Peace!

Barry A. - 10-13-2009 at 08:53 AM

------and the rants go on------------and on----------and on.

As a graduate Geographer, what David K says here is essentially correct, tho simplified since he he NOT writing a book for NOMADS (yet).

Tho some interpret David's statements as misinformation, and "rude" and "haughty", I find that his statements are very informational and highly valuable for those interested in Baja California, and not at all offensive.

I will admit that we on this board have different perspectives, which partially explains why we have different political views, and that is healthy and I encourage it as long as it is civil and constructive.

I say this "Just for the record"------------of course. :spingrin:

Barry

capt. mike - 10-13-2009 at 09:36 AM

effect/impact of humans on earth:

what i have heard - can't confirm the veracity but thot it interesting.

if every human on earth presently were given a simple USA standard/avg. size residential lot to live on, the total area req'd would take up the same amount of floor space as the State of Texas.

if true - how could that much concentration of humanic activity cause any material effect over the enormity of the planet??
i'm just saying.....

David K - 10-13-2009 at 09:41 AM

Pilots have an enormous advantage in seeing more of the size of the earth than us land travelers!

Now, the oceans are HUGE compared to the land on this planet...

Barry A. - 10-13-2009 at 11:26 AM

So true, David.

As a pilot, I always found this slightly unsettleing-----that is seeing so MUCH--------almost like TMI so rapidly that it took all the mystery out of the actual lay of the land. For a lot of reasons, but this was part of it, I no longer fly to "see", especially over land that I want to someday explore------it takes a lot of the fun out of it to be able to see almost instantly what is "around the next bend" from the air-------I now much prefer to "wonder" what is around the next bend, and just drive slowly or walk to find out.

This is just me, and I fully understand others points of view on this subject. I just love to liesurely explore "on the ground"-----------.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 10-13-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
effect/impact of humans on earth:

what i have heard - can't confirm the veracity but thot it interesting.

if every human on earth presently were given a simple USA standard/avg. size residential lot to live on, the total area req'd would take up the same amount of floor space as the State of Texas.

if true - how could that much concentration of humanic activity cause any material effect over the enormity of the planet??
i'm just saying.....

actually, your residential subdivision would take up space of 18 Texases or 1.2 times the total land area of all 50 US states, based on
6.7B world populaton
0.45 ac mean residential lot size
texas is 266,853 sq mi
USA 50 states is 3.8M sq mi

that much "humanic activity" could be pretty devestating. note that the development you propose probably needs an additional 50% land area for shopping malls, and sewage plants and parks -- and still where would we put our agriculture and industry?

somebody may want to check my math... how about DK?

mulegemichael - 10-13-2009 at 01:24 PM

No global warming you say???...then...where, mister are the polar ice caps and the worlds glaciers headed off too?...they are sure not where they are supposed to be..shrinking so rapidly it's almost beyond comprehension....hmmm...

Tomas Tierra - 10-13-2009 at 01:54 PM

who's to say the polar ice caps weren't this size during warming periods in the earths past???

Where are they supposed to be?? on an everchanging planet, where should they be?? just curious

[Edited on 10-13-2009 by Tomas Tierra]

Barry A. - 10-13-2009 at 02:01 PM

--------the Polar Ice Caps have been non-existant several times in the past according to the "science" that I have seen, or heard.

Now THAT amount of liquid water added to the surface of the earth could really change the appearance of the Cape Arch. :spingrin:

Barry

mulegemichael - 10-13-2009 at 02:04 PM

ya know, you are so right tomas...we are such a speck in the bigger "time" picture...when we quote stuff like, "and that was 30 years ago" it literally means nothing on the grande scheme...sheesh, 30 years ago seems like yesterday to me,(and most of us)...you make a good point, tomas

capt. mike - 10-13-2009 at 02:51 PM

i think they were talking about smaller tract lots closer to 80 x 50 or approx 1/10 AC. still, it would be much more than one Texas with 4000 SF lots.

like i wrote, i'd only heard this statistic and had no idea - but i knew someone here would cipher on it a bit.

Skipjack Joe - 10-13-2009 at 02:55 PM

Losing most of all of the polar ice in 30 years is a big deal. Quoting low temperatures from the past makes no sense. Those populations were given time to adapt, evolve, and survive. Ours do not. The times are too brief. A more appropriate comparison is one to natural cataclysmic events like the meteor during the late cretaceous period.

Look, all of this now is understood.

There will always be those who need further 'proof'. Why? Because they really don't like the answers they're getting so far.

There are many who are still disputing the human evolution. As lacking proof. Those will go on forever arguing and there is no convincing them. Why? Because the stakes are so high. Life after death is not something to renounce very easily.

When asked about his religiousity the french philosopher, Pasquale explained it this way.

If the chances that God exists are 1 in 1,000,000. But if He does exist than I have everlasting life, but if not, then it all ends in just a few years from now. Given the choice I will always go for religion.

And that pretty much sums up why many can't look at the data objectively. Their businesses will suffer. Their political party will be embarassed. You don't want to disagree with your friend.

So they just stall.

"We haven't found the missing link yet." "Nobody has actually witnessed an evolutionary transformation". The same tired strawman arguments are now being offered with global warming.

We get a rainy day and sure as rain a post appears about global warming with a smiling face. And the wisecracking begins. Strange though, I don't recollect any humor about global warming when that hurricane hit Mulege.

standingwave - 10-13-2009 at 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Losing most of all of the polar ice in 30 years is a big deal. Quoting low temperatures from the past makes no sense. Those populations were given time to adapt, evolve, and survive. Ours do not. The times are too brief. A more appropriate comparison is one to natural cataclysmic events like the meteor during the late cretaceous period.

Look, all of this now is understood.

There will always be those who need further 'proof'. Why? Because they really don't like the answers they're getting so far.

There are many who are still disputing the human evolution. As lacking proof. Those will go on forever arguing and there is no convincing them. Why? Because the stakes are so high. Life after death is not something to renounce very easily.

When asked about his religiousity the french philosopher, Pasquale explained it this way.

If the chances that God exists are 1 in 1,000,000. But if He does exist than I have everlasting life, but if not, then it all ends in just a few years from now. Given the choice I will always go for religion.

And that pretty much sums up why many can't look at the data objectively. Their businesses will suffer. Their political party will be embarassed. You don't want to disagree with your friend.

So they just stall.

"We haven't found the missing link yet." "Nobody has actually witnessed an evolutionary transformation". The same tired strawman arguments are now being offered with global warming.

We get a rainy day and sure as rain a post appears about global warming with a smiling face. And the wisecracking begins. Strange though, I don't recollect any humor about global warming when that hurricane hit Mulege.

...and we ain't seen nothin' yet.
Think of your beer cooler down on the beach. The beer stay cool until the last bit of the ice has gone. Then what happens?
That kind of out of control temperature rise is nasty enough when its a six pack of Pacifico at stake (or even any of the other - lesser - beers ;-) but when it threatens to be the whole dagnam planet, look out.

Ken Bondy - 10-13-2009 at 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

"We haven't found the missing link yet." "Nobody has actually witnessed an evolutionary transformation".

Igor

Richard Dawkins' latest book "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution" demolishes that tired, old, fallacious argument magnificently. Worth a read.

++Ken++

DianaT - 10-13-2009 at 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

"We haven't found the missing link yet." "Nobody has actually witnessed an evolutionary transformation".

Igor

Richard Dawkins' latest book "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution" demolishes that tired, old, fallacious argument magnificently. Worth a read.

++Ken++

Thanks---that sounds like a good one to read.

Paulina - 10-13-2009 at 09:32 PM

So, when I was there in 1980, was there sand under the arch, or was it my imagination?

P<*)))>{

ps. I almost said "Al Gore need not answer" but then deleted that sentence as I'm trying to get myself back on topic.

Thank you.

vgabndo - 10-13-2009 at 10:23 PM

Here's an interesting article from Scientific American.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-much-wi...

Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" is also an excellent read. I must admit, though, that it was for me a bit like drinking a steak through a straw. He makes some interesting points about the evolutionary positive effects on a population sharing a commonly held belief in the same mythology.

This can be reversed it seems when Armegeddon cults like those that dominate American philosophical thought deny reality and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge and fight a threat to their survival. If they take action they lengthen the time before they "rapture" out of here. It is tough to reason with those who'd rather be dead than rational.

The intermittant sands under the arch are easy to explain as stated elsewhere. Are sea levels rising? The huge preponderance of evidence says "yes".

Skipjack Joe - 10-14-2009 at 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
So, when I was there in 1980, was there sand under the arch, or was it my imagination?

P<*)))>{

ps. I almost said "Al Gore need not answer" ...

Then ask Leslie.

Al's tire of being ... "one of your - many toys" <groan>

[Edited on 10-14-2009 by Skipjack Joe]

Ken Bondy - 10-14-2009 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Here's an interesting article from Scientific American.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-much-wi...

Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" is also an excellent read. I must admit, though, that it was for me a bit like drinking a steak through a straw. He makes some interesting points about the evolutionary positive effects on a population sharing a commonly held belief in the same mythology.

I thought that was a fascinating part of "God Delusion". Dawkins asks the question, paraphrased, "Why has religion lasted so long?" and hypothesizes that the answer might actually be explained by evolution. Go figger. Along with the larger evolutionary effects resulting from a commonly held belief in the same mythology (that you mentioned) he also hypothesizes that natural selection might have actually favored religious individuals. Religion heavily influenced early societies (as it does now). Children were told by their parents to believe in whatever particular mythology was in fashion at the time. The kids did. But the kids also got valuable survival advice from their parents (don't get too close to the cliff, don't put your hand in the fire, stay away from wolves, etc.), and the kids who paid attention to their parents survived their childhoods more than the kids that didn't. Thus, in the natural selection process, along with the survival advice came the religious advice. The kids who survived childhood and reproduced tended to be religious. Thus Dawkins explains by evolution why religion is still so persistent. I thought that was an ironic twist

[Edited on 10-14-2009 by Ken Bondy]

DianaT - 10-14-2009 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo

Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" is also an excellent read. I must admit, though, that it was for me a bit like drinking a steak through a straw.

You and Ken are really making be want to read this book, but I love that description --- steak through a straw.

Thanks

Bajahowodd - 10-14-2009 at 12:31 PM

Sand Under the San Lucas Arch? Gotta love it how Nomads can morph a subject like that to the writings of Richard Dawkins! :biggrin:

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan. Just thought it weirdly interesting as to the meanderings of this thread.

Skipjack Joe - 10-14-2009 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The kids who survived childhood and reproduced tended to be religious.

Makes sense to me. The Bible is full of laws that give it's adherents a leg up on the rest of mankind. Half of the 10 commandments don't deal with spirituality at all. I can see how natural selection would favor these people.

I'm just having trouble with that title "The God Delusion". It's so confrontational and arrogant, condescending. If you want to convince people of something that seems like a strange first step.

Ken Bondy - 10-14-2009 at 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Sand Under the San Lucas Arch? Gotta love it how Nomads can morph a subject like that to the writings of Richard Dawkins! :biggrin:

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan. Just thought it weirdly interesting as to the meanderings of this thread.

Kinda like evolution happening right here on the Board

Ken Bondy - 10-14-2009 at 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The kids who survived childhood and reproduced tended to be religious.

Agree. Dawkins is actually quite mild-mannered, scientific, and non-confrontational in presenting his opinions in the text of the book, maybe his editor selected the title for shock value? Sam Harris, with similar views, is somewhate more low-key in his titles (The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation).

Looky at 1868 drawing of cape...

David K - 10-14-2009 at 01:38 PM

Seems the sea levels in 1868 (98 years earlier) were still the same as in my 1966 photo...

[Edited on 10-14-2009 by David K]

66-67 pics 004.jpg - 35kB

tripledigitken - 10-14-2009 at 01:44 PM

I think you're on to something there DK.

Bajahowodd - 10-14-2009 at 01:45 PM

Wait four years, DK!

I agree with you Ken, it really does appear that the editor or the publisher may have influenced the title. Although even if they had gone with something a mite more sanguine, I still have to believe reviews would have resulted in the absolute belief crowd avoding it anyway.

Nomad Know it all

The Gull - 10-14-2009 at 08:33 PM

Who really knows more than DK? GoatBoy? Skipjack Joe?

How does one Nomad tell another Nomad, that the other Nomad is not an expert on everything? That would make the accusing Nomad actually the expert on everything, including knowing who isn't an expert.

How are we, the mere mortal Nomads, ever going to be able to understand what it is like being a "know-it-all"?

vgabndo - 10-14-2009 at 08:51 PM

I think that Dr. Drip is an expert on Baja Missions. If I needed information about them he'd be the first person I'd think of. However I've heard his minority view about global warming and personally will place my trust in the experts on THAT topic.

What was it that lured you over from the off-topic Gull? I'd hate to think that you were losing your edge. You slurred "goatboy", but forgot to repeat your old attempted slur of FAGabundo. Tsk Tsk Tsk. :lol:

Skipjack Joe - 10-14-2009 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
How does one Nomad tell another Nomad, that the other Nomad is not an expert on everything?

(1975) Master's thesis on factors controlling the distribution of crustaceans on central california beaches.

(1979) PhD work at University of New Hampshire on new england beach macrofauna.

Spent lotta time those years on my hands and knees with collection vials, strainers, and alcohol. You learn a few things that way.

DianaT - 10-15-2009 at 08:24 AM

Arctic Ice Cap to disappear

Interesting, very brief article about another study done about the disappearing ice cap.

Artic Ice Cap to Disappear

I am sure some will say that because it was not done by people from the US, it is just more political propaganda---especially since the scientist was educated at Cambridge and probably does not listen to Rush Limbaugh to hear the TRUTH. :rolleyes:

Estero Beach Ain't Got No More Beach!

Fred-o - 10-15-2009 at 11:18 AM

I began my Baja adventures in 1988 at Estero Beach, and bought a trailer/cabaña long before I became a premanente'. There was a huge beach in front of the entire resort developement.

The "spit" (Baja Beach & Tennis Club) was way over yonder across the channel that we could easily take our boats through. We could barely make out the Sea Lions over there sunning.

Now! There is no beach at Estero Beach, and the "spit" is only a stones throw away, with the Sea Lions highly visible.

You cannot take a boat through the "channel" anymore it's all silted up.

When they had the Vollyball tournaments, there were 150 nets strung up over part that huge beach area. No Mas mi amigos... No Mas Vollyball either, sadly.

Yes; tides, currents, possibly changes in the beach further up from Estero...Who knows, but it's all gone now. When will it come back?

GOK

The Gull - 10-15-2009 at 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
How does one Nomad tell another Nomad, that the other Nomad is not an expert on everything?

So knowing one thing extensively, provides for a general claim of knowing everything better than others? Or at least it provides a bully pulpit from which to pontificate about the shortcomings of others in one person's eyes?

Bajahowodd - 10-15-2009 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred-o
I began my Baja adventures in 1988 at Estero Beach, and bought a trailer/cabaña long before I became a premanente'. There was a huge beach in front of the entire resort developement.

The "spit" (Baja Beach & Tennis Club) was way over yonder across the channel that we could easily take our boats through. We could barely make out the Sea Lions over there sunning.

Now! There is no beach at Estero Beach, and the "spit" is only a stones throw away, with the Sea Lions highly visible.

You cannot take a boat through the "channel" anymore it's all silted up.

When they had the Vollyball tournaments, there were 150 nets strung up over part that huge beach area. No Mas mi amigos... No Mas Vollyball either, sadly.

Yes; tides, currents, possibly changes in the beach further up from Estero...Who knows, but it's all gone now. When will it come back?

GOK

Maybe never. One theory involve the housing/ building infrastructure in and a round Estero Beach altering the historic wind patterns. Actually, where commercial interests are involved, virtually all around the world, harbors and river mouths are dredged regularly to allow passage of commerce. Who'da thunk that Estero de Punta Banda needed to be dredged? Maybe, eventually, Punta Estero and Estero Beach will merge. The unfortunate aspect to that prospect is the probable demise of many species that live in the estuary.

Ken Bondy - 10-15-2009 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
How does one Nomad tell another Nomad, that the other Nomad is not an expert on everything?

I'm going to jump in here and defend Igor. I don't think he was claiming to know "everything better than others", he was just pointing out that he knows a lot about beaches, which I thought was the issue.

Natalie Ann - 10-15-2009 at 01:09 PM

You're right, Ken... Igor did not say he knew everything better than others. I just reread this whole darn thread and nowhere does he even imply that to be the case.

It seems pretty darn clear to me that each of us Nomads has a choice. We can take the opinion of someone who has graduate degrees and life experience studying beaches.... we can take the time ourselves to learn the science of beaches.... or we can take the word of someone who travels to a spot he calls 'Shell Island', looks at the water level and calls that science. It's up to you, kids. :yes:

nena

DianaT - 10-15-2009 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

So knowing one thing extensively, provides for a general claim of knowing everything better than others? Or at least it provides a bully pulpit from which to pontificate about the shortcomings of others in one person's eyes?

Gee, I must have missed where Igor claimed to know EVERYTHING better others----did he do that?

I think not.

Now I can and have differed with him about things that involve OPINION, but that is a very different thing.

Bajahowodd - 10-15-2009 at 03:55 PM

David. Maybe you like controversy. If so, ignore this. But the plain and simple truth is that while your fantastic knowledge of Baja history and the missions, in specific, is a wonderful resource for folks on this board, you need to recognize that when you get involved in many of the other discussions here, you actually diminish your ability to totally captivate us with what you do best. Obviously, I'm not the official censor here. But, over time, what I have seen is that you get involved in way too many issues that are either controversial, or that you create the controversy. Just a friendly suggestion. Try to stay out of politics ( not to mention that politics should really only be reserved to off-topic) but also issues like climate change. Going out on a limb here, but I'm thinking that maybe your personal beliefs are formed from a minority belief position in the world. Please tell me you're not waiting for the rapture.

BajaWarrior - 10-15-2009 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
How does one Nomad tell another Nomad, that the other Nomad is not an expert on everything?

Skipjack Joe,

what do you think about the diminishing sand on beaches due to building of dams?

I've done a little research myself about Hoover Dam, and I believe as a result of it the upper cortez is being deprived of sand on it's beaches, namely mine.

Bajahowodd - 10-15-2009 at 04:07 PM

Sorry to jump in, but a more pressing problem is the lack of water.

Natalie Ann - 10-15-2009 at 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Natalie, please retract this: ".... or we can take the word of someone who travels to a spot he calls 'Shell Island', looks at the water level and calls that science. It's up to you, kids."

[Edited on 10-15-2009 by David K]

I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

Natalie Ann

DianaT - 10-15-2009 at 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

If somebody comes back and calls me a liar or whatever, then they have a problem with the facts or just that a non-liberal is presenting the facts.

Best laugh of the day---guess you must be a liberal after all since you seem to like to call people liars.

:lol:

Crusoe - 10-15-2009 at 04:25 PM

David.... Sorry Old Boy...But if anyone on this board has a political agenda it is you!!!! Hey-- its your right, just do not be in denial!. ++C++

Bajahowodd - 10-15-2009 at 04:27 PM

Daniel k. Ludwig, an international shipping magnate started the salt works at Guerrero Negro. I happen to know him because we both had an affiliation to Westlake Village California. Point is that I don't invoke Ludwig ten times a day. (he sold out when he believed the Mexican government wa going to nationalize the salt facility)

'Nuff said. You have helped prove my point. I'm betting that if Doug took a poll, and asked Nomads to vote as to whether they were conservative of liberal, the conservatives would win by a handy margin.

Sure, there has to be an openness here for it to work. But please think before you post. In my opinion, you have a hair trigger about too many issues.

One of the unfortunate developments in the US over the past couple of decades is that we have allowed conservatives to claim that they are marginalized, despite the fact they have continually gained power. The liberal media is a myth. Hey man, you conservative guys have an immense influence over what this country is doing. I will refrain from making a value judgement on that. It just annoys me no end, that, just as in a boxing match, you guys are almost always ahead on points, but want to claim the ref is biased against you.

[Edited on 10-15-2009 by Bajahowodd]

Skipjack Joe - 10-15-2009 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
So knowing one thing extensively, provides for a general claim of knowing everything better than others? Or at least it provides a bully pulpit from which to pontificate about the shortcomings of others in one person's eyes?

Listen, I never volunteered my background. You asked for it. You goaded us to provide proof that we knew what we were talking about. So I did.

The subject is coastal soft sediments and I spent 5 years of my life on it. If that comes across as pontification to you, so be it. Put yourself in my shoes. You read statements over and over again that are clearly wrong and you should be silent about them? Why?

As for my shortcomings in having extensive knowledge of a single subject. How do you know that? You don't even know me. I left school when I was 30. My curiosity was such that I was willing to sacrifice wealth and a family life to just learn. You couldn't be further from the truth.

I would like to thank all of those of you who have supported me here.

mtgoat666 - 10-15-2009 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
What I fail to understand is why us conservatives on Nomad must remain silent while the liberals can post all the hysteria they want?

what is truly funny is that DK thinks that liberals are trying to silence conservatives, as if he is a member of a persecuted minority. let's start a movement to free DK from liberal oppression! Free DK!! Let his people go!!!

back to the topic at hand... the problem with many conservative political positions is that they are populist or industrial positions based on anti-science, anti-intellectualism or pure unadulterated greed.
a couple of the conservative positions that are ludicrous and based on phony science or have an anti-intellectual bias are creationism, claiming that global warming is false, claiming that gay marriage will harm straight marriage, or arguing that the way to measure and fund education is to use standardized tests.

conservatives rely on science when it comes to bombs and computers, and rely on religion or fake science to justify their antiquated draconian public policy goals.

tripledigitken - 10-15-2009 at 04:57 PM

What does Rush have to do with this thread?

I think politizing an issue comes from both sides.

Being an expert on any subject is too often clouded by ones political beliefs. Surely you all have seen expert witnesses on both sides of a legal battle claiming their position is the one of truth?

There are scientists willing to stake their credibilty on either side of any subject.

So the wheels go round and round...........................

Ken

DianaT - 10-15-2009 at 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

What does Rush have to do with this thread?

Ken

Only that if one listens to Rush and then reads some of what certain people post about issues, the words are almost copied exactly-----it is the ditto head thing, and some are real believers.

But I guess I should not pick on Rush---poor man has been called out by the NFL for exactly what he is. :lol:

[Edited on 10-16-2009 by DianaT]

Bajahowodd - 10-15-2009 at 05:11 PM

Actually, according to his recent interview with the folks at Today, he admits that he's merely in it for the money. He wants ratings and a gazillion dollars. So, all you Rush Limbaugh followers, you've been following a hoar. Plain and simple. Maybe you can go try to find a true believer, but it won't be Rush. Feel silly now?

Skipjack Joe - 10-15-2009 at 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Skipjack Joe,

what do you think about the diminishing sand on beaches due to building of dams?

I've done a little research myself about Hoover Dam, and I believe as a result of it the upper cortez is being deprived of sand on it's beaches, namely mine.

That's clearly a problem. Beach sand is normally transported along a beach until it enters a submarine canyon where it ends up. It's always moving and if you remove the source, well - it's left at the lake bottom.

In relation to this, many of us believed that the totuava are endangered due to overfishing. But it turns out that those fish spawn in the colorado delta and require a certain flow of water and sediment to do it effectively. It will be interesting to see how much this will effect their comeback now that they have to be released by fishermen.

The fact that there is sand at the arch is not suprising. On one side you have a marina that has been dredged and on the other you have this long conveyer belt of sand marching towards you (sand is moving north to south on our coast due to the prevailing winds). Basically what I'm saying is - there's plenty of sand. I don't know local conditions well enough to say why the sand is deeper at times than at others.

Crusoe - 10-15-2009 at 08:52 PM

Skipjack...Thank You for a more clear understanding of sand movement. It must be a very fastenating subject. ++C++

The Gull - 10-15-2009 at 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
So knowing one thing extensively, provides for a general claim of knowing everything better than others? Or at least it provides a bully pulpit from which to pontificate about the shortcomings of others in one person's eyes?

For such a learned person, your reading talent seems a bit off. I didn't suggest you had shortcomings, because I don't know you and seriously don't want to. You are likely to get a muscle spasm from patting yourself on the back for being such a wonderful person as to forego wealth and family. So be careful.

Some people on this board seem to be able to point out other's shortcomings based on an assertion of greater knowledge as if there is nothing unsavory in doing so. That holy-than-thou 'tude seems to crop up frequently. If the shoe fits...

What modesty to acknowledge the many who support you...applause, applause, applause.

vgabndo - 10-15-2009 at 09:57 PM

It has to be difficult to get any story straight in this culture. Let's face it, not all "men" are created equal; some of them create the market on TV for professional wrestling, soap opera, American Idol, and any number of programs on the FOX network that specialize in far right panel shows having several people talking at the same time. (CNN sometimes does the same thing) There was a time in America when a TV program said it was NEWS, it had damned well better not be opinion. The FCC would have your butt for claiming, especially a partisan opinion, was factual news. The last of the FCC's teeth were pulled during the GW Bush Admin.

Yet, on my TV every word out of the mouth of the alcoholic Glenn Beck has a spinning icon under it saying it is NEWS. Every twisted enuendo from the lips of Sean Hannidy says NEWS under it. Every hateful screech out of Bill O'Reilly says NEWS under it. "Lush Limpbaugh" :lol:

, the convicted pill head Viagra smuggler openly advocates for the failure of the American government. Imagine if any middle of the road news organization advocated for the failure of the Iraq war. The flying spittle from the flapping lips of these men would likely destroy several video cameras and a microphone! Don't even get me started about the disgraced, thrown out of the Marine Corps, evidence shredding , international terrorist Oliver North strutting around the FOX "news" Network advertised as a military hero.

How could it be a surprise that citizens who are in the lower percentiles of the intelligence spectrum still think that FOX was telling the truth about weapons of mass destruction.

The insidious little jabs come from everywhere. Certainly DK knows how to spell Al Gore's name, yet he diminishes his argument by making it "algore".

All of the above is my opinion, but I believe I can prove every word.

Debate is a wonderful, NECESSARY, thing, but the opponents have to have a factual background for their arguments. It takes a LOT of works these days to ferret-out what is real.

Its late, I'm wound up, and I never argue with my wife! :lol:

[Edited on 10-16-2009 by vgabndo]

Skipjack Joe - 10-15-2009 at 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
What modesty to acknowledge the many who support you...applause, applause, applause.

It wasn't modesty, just plain gratitude.

Strange how you missed that. You're a very cynical man, Gull.

Actually you're just pulling my chain now. You have no real points to make on the subject at hand. These are just personal attacks for reasons that are only known to you.

I'll have no more to do with you.

jeans - 10-15-2009 at 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
It has to be difficult to get any story straight in this culture. Let's face it, not all "men" are created equal; some of them create the market on TV for professional wrestling, soap opera, American Idol, and any number of programs on the FOX network that specialize in far right panel shows having several people talking at the same time. (CNN sometimes does the same thing) There was a time in America when a TV program said it was NEWS, it had damned well better not be opinion. The FCC would have your butt for claiming, especially a partisan opinion, was factual news. The last of the FCC's teeth were pulled during the GW Bush Admin.

Yet, on my TV every word out of the mouth of the alcoholic Glenn Beck has a spinning icon under it saying it is NEWS. Every twisted enuendo from the lips of Sean Hannidy says NEWS under it. Every hateful screech out of Bill O'Reilly says NEWS under it. "Lush Limpbaugh" :lol:

[Edited on 10-16-2009 by vgabndo]

Wow...after slogging through 4 pages of mostly predictable rhetoric on this subject, I can see how simplistic my own explanation was on this subject.

I had assumed that pictures I had seen in the travel magazines...much like the one BajaWarrior took, were taken on the rare minus tide days when the sand was exposed. Those days could be predicted with a tidal calendar so the photographers & models could be ready for the photo shoot.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

The Gull - 10-16-2009 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
What modesty to acknowledge the many who support you...applause, applause, applause.

Well, well, well, I just can't stand being rebuked by the likes of you. Sniff, sniff, snuffle, cry...calling me very cynical and calling DK other things are not personal attacks Mr. Hypocrisy? DK has every right to provide whatever he wants on this board without your feeble attempts at censorship.

Oh how some people fool themselves into thinking they are near perfect, if not perfect, then certainly better than others. Throw the first stone in this glass house, buster.

The mirror reveals much about your strident nature.

capt. mike - 10-16-2009 at 04:15 PM

wow.....i think i'll head over to off topic.
these sections are way too controversial!! :lol:

Bajahowodd - 10-16-2009 at 04:23 PM

You actually make a good point Mike. For the past several weeks, I've been siurprised at what has been left on the general board. I can only guess that between the threads started here about a "gentler" off-topic, and the usual nasty political and race stuff in off-topic, there was a decision made to allow a bit more lattitude on the general board. JMHO.

DianaT - 10-17-2009 at 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Very sad that you posted a lie about me, and with my attempt to be nice and ask you to correct it (or prove where I said such a thing)... you respond with this. How un-mature and un-Nomad-like...

You know very well if I misquoted you (or posted a photo you took without credit), you would be all worked up about it. Heck, you even tried to jump on me when I posted Wayno's photo WITH HIS PERMISSION... and you couldn't even apologize for that after Wano told you it was okay.

If I am found to be in error, I am, big enough to apologize and delete any error.

I also see that Perry was upset that I mis-spelled his hero as 'algore'... So, I will no longer do that, as I don't want to upset Perry. I did that because the guy (Al Gore) gets no respect from me with his lie and profitting from the lie of man made global warming... flying in his Gulfstream, using more energy in each of his homes in one month than the aveage family uses in a year.

I don't think political leaders are better than taxpayers or should tell us to live one way, while they live another... That happens in dictatorships and shouldn't happen in our republic.

A truly pathetic post, David---really pathetic ---but you did manage to throw in your political agenda.

It always seems to be someone else. Sad, really sad.

vandenberg - 10-17-2009 at 08:13 AM

What happened to the sand under the Arch? :?:

I wanna see that.
When is the next event. :biggrin:

DianaT - 10-17-2009 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
What happened to the sand under the Arch? :?:

I wanna see that.
When is the next event. :biggrin:

Judy said about every 8 years and BW said his photo was from 1989-----so, what would that be? Too early to do the math. :biggrin:

Bajahowodd - 10-17-2009 at 10:37 AM

And here I thought there was sand under the arch every four years. I guess that by my age, 8 years seems like 4. :yes:

DianaT - 10-17-2009 at 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And here I thought there was sand under the arch every four years. I guess that by my age, 8 years seems like 4. :yes:

Could be, I don't have a clue---

I do know a bit more about these arches. They have water in them almost every day, and dogs under them quite often. :lol:

Natalie Ann - 10-17-2009 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
In relation to this, many of us believed that the totuava are endangered due to overfishing. But it turns out that those fish spawn in the colorado delta and require a certain flow of water and sediment to do it effectively. It will be interesting to see how much this will effect their comeback now that they have to be released by fishermen.

Many of you have seen these pix before, still.....
not much left of the mighty Colorado as it heads to the Sea these days:

nena

[Edited on 10-17-2009 by Natalie Ann]

Natalie Ann - 10-17-2009 at 11:40 AM

and more.....

nena

David K - 10-17-2009 at 12:04 PM

Beautiful Photos Natalie Ann, as always... Thank you.

Why the arch changes

Skipjack Joe - 10-17-2009 at 01:23 PM

When Bascom did his work at Scripps these processes weren't well understood. For example, Santa Barbara harbor was created by building a protective sea wall along it's north edge. This resulted in sand being dumped at the end of the wall, right at the harbor entrance. In effect the construction was causing the harbor to fill up because the waves lost their force right there. This resulted in an ongoing dredging operation to keep the harbor open.

The US Army Corps of engineers greatly benefited from Bascom's work and began to develop models at the start of every project. These models simulated the coastline in structure, with waves being generated and sand movement being observed. I don't know, perhaps much of this is now being done with computers. These days the Corps probably knows as much about the dynamics of Shell Beach and Land's End as anyone.

The following link contains one of their recent projects in Maine. Page 11 (pdf page 20) is of interest as it shows an image of a completed model ready to collect data. Changing the variables will affect how and where the sand will be deposited.

http://chl.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/7/8/2/CERC-TR-95-11.pdf

It's unlikely that the Escalera Nautica is researched to this degree. That's unfortunate. It should be.

Natalie Ann - 10-17-2009 at 01:29 PM

I would agree that they're great images of the area, David... much of this can be seen from the regular commercial airplane, so I'm sure it is familiar to many of us.

But the thing is.... this area used to be really truly incredibly lush and beautiful. (not my personal knowlege, but info from and pix seen in books telling the history of this area and of the damning of the Colorado)

The lower Colorado was a full rushing river with much aquatic life, the north-east boundaries of Baja were thick with grasses and the area was good for agriculture and raising animals. Farming and fishing were the way of life for the locals.

Now the lower Colorado it is a pathetic excuse for a river slowly moving through concrete and mud flats. The land is not a place where the natives of Baja can live anymore.

This understanding leaves me feeling quite sad when I look at these pictures.

nena

DianaT - 10-17-2009 at 03:24 PM

Nena,

Those are great photos----really beautiful of something rather sad.

Tomas Tierra - 10-18-2009 at 06:20 PM

Give it a thousand years or so,a relative spec in time...all will be resolved..the colorado will flow, the ice caps will be back, and the MOLD that inhabited this earth will have grown to large to be supported, and will be long gone...maybe a few hearty remnants of the mold will survive with greater respect, for itself and its host..

Pages: 1 2