BajaNomad - ? Regarding limits

? Regarding limits

Santiago - 10-24-2009 at 01:30 PM

How many folks need to be on the boat for a catch of 40 tuna and 12 yellowtail?

I think 8: 10 total w/ no more than 5 of any one species? Right? (I know that billfish and dorado count as more than one depending on the fish.)

Is it 'OK' to count the captain and deck hand in the total? By 'OK', I mean legal. Whether or not it's the right thing to do I'll leave alone.

Do the sportfishing limits apply to Mexican citizens also?

I'm not being picky, just curious.

Osprey - 10-24-2009 at 01:40 PM

Very good question. Here's my take > need 8 fishermen for the tuna (5 of one species) and 3 for the yellowtail (same count - 5, 5 and 2). As far as I know the crew, if it's a charter, can't catch or keep fish, are not in the count. It does not matter about the citizenry of the fishermen -- in the boat, fishing, in the count and must be licensed.

BajaBruno - 10-24-2009 at 01:45 PM

Whether the crew count as fisherpeople may be more a function of local custom than law. Of course, as Osprey notes, they must be licensed, and few seem to be. But then, maybe local custom covers that, too.

wadeinthewater - 10-24-2009 at 03:08 PM

"In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, per angler with no more than five catches of a single specie, (with the exception) of: the species of marlin, sailfish, swordfish and shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which count as five toward the overall 10 fish limit. Two dorado, roosterfish, shad, or tarpon, count as five each for an overall 10 fish limit. In other words, if you catch 1 marlin (5 points) and 1 dorado (5 points), you have reached your limit for the day. Two dorado means you're done. One roosterfish plus 1 dorado – done. You might be better off taking 1 dorado plus 5 tuna."

Pat of a story I did not too long ago. Captains and crew must have lic. but they can not be added to anglers catch, though the like a good tip and usually do.

I get photos all the time of 2 anglers and way overlinits because the captains tell them it's okay.

BajaDanD - 10-24-2009 at 06:54 PM

Its 2 dorado + 5 tuna or 2 dorado and 1 marlin

comitan - 10-24-2009 at 07:01 PM

http://tailhunter-international.com/uploaded_images/Tuna-Leo...

can someone post this picture and tell me if the limit is correct. :lol:

Bajaboy - 10-24-2009 at 07:02 PM

Did the guy mean catch and release?

Russ - 10-24-2009 at 08:44 PM

Here's the pic.

Tuna-Leo-and-Paul-tags-792361.jpg - 48kB

shari - 10-25-2009 at 06:39 AM

playing...er fishing by the rules is tricky...especially when the rules arent entirely clear and you get differing answers when you ask even fisheries officials.
The difficult part is that if one charter operator DOES adhere to all the regs and gets all the permits...and the competition doesnt....well....clients soon figure out they can take home more fish and dont have to pay for reserve permits with the competition...and so the "good guy" loses business....dang!
any suggestions/comments nomads????

Osprey - 10-25-2009 at 07:03 AM

I think the best you can do is play fair, let the world know about it and the real sportsmen will find you. It is my belief they outnumber the scofflaws at least 10 to one. Just make sure that when the bad guys get caught and fined you let the fishing world know about that too. God bless the internet.

bill erhardt - 10-25-2009 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wadeinthewater
In other words, if you catch 1 marlin (5 points) and 1 dorado (5 points), you have reached your limit for the day. Two dorado means you're done. One roosterfish plus 1 dorado – done.

There are certainly gray areas in the sport fishing regulations, but the conclusions in these three hypotheticals are clearly wrong.
As BajaDan more gently pointed out, if you catch and keep 1 marlin and 1 dorado you can keep another dorado and still be legal.
If you catch and keep 2 dorado you are not "done", but can also catch and keep 1 billfish or shark, 2 roosters, shad or tarpon, or 5 of any other species of which the daily limit is 5.
If you have 1 rooster and 1 dorado in the boat you can catch and keep one more of each and still be within your limit.
What is not so clear is how you can mix and match more than 2 species with different limits. For example, how many yellowfin could be legally kept along with a billfish and a dorado?

woody with a view - 10-25-2009 at 09:07 AM

great discussion.

Bia and i will be :biggrin:

with 2 dorado and 5 YFT each!!!!!!

T-MINUS 4 days.........

wadeinthewater - 10-25-2009 at 10:09 AM

Thanks Bill for the correction. I actually showed that article to 3 different people "in the know" and was told it was correct before I ran it. And this IS a wonderful topic and one I have tried to engage my readers in for awhile.

If you see photos of overlimits and don't question it, you are part of the problem, in my opinion. There is one very popular fishing site where anglers boast about numbers and others respond with congrads.

It truely is diffucult to get copy and photos correct sometimes. I have sent a notice to all of my sources saying that fish, numbers, and anglers must match. In some cases they just say "sorry" got lazy with writing you all of the names, didn't have all of the other anglers names etc. While one tried to say both the Capt. and mate had permits and contributed (NOT okay and I called him on it.)

Personally, I will continue to better educate myself and my readers, understand these gray areas and share with my readers what and where I screw up as well as others.

And Shari is right. Playing by the rules down here gets you short changed and in trouble

Alan - 10-25-2009 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
Here's the pic.

I assume that their friend who took the photo was the third angler on the boat.

woody with a view - 10-25-2009 at 12:01 PM

or a girlfriend, or the boat capt, or a bandito, or a self portrait or.........

wadeinthewater - 10-25-2009 at 12:05 PM

There were 3 on the boat and the third took the photo. The inspector is on that beach almost every day.

Santiago - 10-25-2009 at 01:21 PM

I've never thought much about this as I generally only keep a few fish to eat that day, if any. Not saying I'm better than anyone else, just my preference.
I noticed on another board where someone fishing out of La Boccana had a good bite that day and they had 40 tuna and 12 yellowtail vacuum-packed and on ice by 2:00pm.
Now, maybe I jumped to conclusions and they were talking about the fleet's catch that day or maybe 3 or 4 buddy boats - but I didn't get that feeling from the report.

Santiago - 10-25-2009 at 02:05 PM

uh oh, I may have goofed. The post on BD I was referring to has been changed: they caught 40 tuna and 12 yellowtail but only kept 6. I stand corrected, if not somewhat incredulous.....

shari - 10-25-2009 at 04:06 PM

bill....I dont see how you can keep more than one dorado and one rooster...each of those fish count for 5 fish each so with 2 dorado...or a dorado and 1 roosterfish...that adds up to 10 fish so you are done. You are ALLOWED 2 dorado but they would add up to 10 fish. If our clients want to keep a dorado, then they can only get 5 more fish...tuna or yellowtail, calico etc.
here are the regulations....

FISHING REGULATIONS
Baja California Peninsula - Mexico

In order to operate a boat that carries fishing equipment in Mexican waters, it is necessary to hold a personal fishing licenses for everybody aboard the boat, regardless of age and whether fishing or not. A Fishing License is not required when fishing from land. This includes kayaks and canoes.
-- Only one rod or line with hook is permitted in the water, per person, but there is no restriction regarding the number of replacement items.
-- This fishing license allows to capture only fin fish. It does not allow capturing any mollusks or crustaceans, and their capture by anyone is strictly prohibited. Totuava, turtles and marine mammals are under protection of the Ministry and my not be captured at any time.
-- To capture bottom fish, up to four hooks on a vertical line may be used.
-- The use of electric reels is restricted to disabled fishermen only, after written authorization for the Ministry before use.

BAG AND POSSESSION LIMITS

In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of Marlin, Sailfish, Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts a five toward the overall 10 fish limit, or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count a five toward the overall 10 fish limit.***
if you catch 1 marlin (5 points) and 1 dorado (5 points), you have reached your limit for the day or 2 dorado; 1 dorado plus 5 miscellaneous species; or, 1 roosterfish plus 1 dorado
Limit on inland bodies of water (rivers, lakes, dams, etc.) is five fish per day, whether of a single specie or in combination.
Underwater fishing is limited to five fish per day, using rubber band or spring type harpoons, and only while skin-diving.
There is no limit to the practice of "catch and release," as long as the fish that exceed the bag limit be returned to their environment in good survival condition.

VIOLATIONS
-- It is illegal to capture and maintain alive any fish or ornamental purposes.
-- It is prohibited to receive any financial gain from the product obtained through sportfishing.
-- It is prohibited to dump trash, litter or substances that harm the aquatic flora or fauna, whether on lakes, river banks, shores, or oceanic waters.
-- It is prohibited to collect shells, corals, sea anemones and snails, or to disturb the original ecosystem environment.
-- It is prohibited to practice sport fishing 250 meters or less from swimmers.
-- It is prohibited to use artificial lighting to attract large quantities of fish.
-- It is prohibited to discharge firearms in Mexican waters.
-- Fish caught under a sport fishing license may not be filleted aboard the vessel from which it was caught.
-- It is requested that all unusual activities, occurrences or record catches be reported to the nearest office of the Oficina de Pesca, or to its representation in San Diego, CA, in order to ensure the preservation of the natural resources for the continued enjoyment of all fishermen.
Any non-resident alien 16 years or older must possess a valid Mexican Sport fishing License before fishing in Mexican waters. This license covers all types of fishing and is valid anywhere in Mexico. Everyone aboard private boats in Mexican waters must have a fishing license if there is fishing gear of any kind, or fish, or fish parts on board. Licenses for people fishing on commercial sport fishing boats are normally provided by the boat operators. A fishing license is also required for underwater fishing. Fishing licenses are issued for periods of one week, one month, and one year, effective at 12:01 am on the starting date specified on the license application. The prices for Mexican fishing licenses are as follows:

Except when skin or scuba diving, fish must be taken by angling with a hand-held line or a line attached to a rod. The use of nets (except handling nets), traps, poisons, or explosives is strictly prohibited. Skin and scuba divers may only fish with hand-held spears or band-powered spearguns. It is illegal to sell, trade, or exchange the fish caught. Fish can be eviscerated and filleted, but a patch of skin must be left to permit identification.
The taking of abalone, lobster, shrimp, pismo clams, totuava, oysters, and sea turtles is prohibited by Mexican law. Anyone wishing to purchase any of these species to take into the United States must first obtain a form from the Mexican Government Fish Commission; only the Oficinas de Pesca located within Mexico provides this form.

woody with a view - 10-25-2009 at 04:45 PM

or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count a five EACH? toward the overall 10 fish limit.***

2 dorado = 5 points, right?

if you catch 1 marlin (5 points) and 1 dorado (5 points), you have reached your limit for the day or 2 dorado;

2 dorado = limit?

complete ambiguity = mexico!

[Edited on 10-25-2009 by woody in ob]

[Edited on 10-25-2009 by woody in ob]

woody with a view - 10-25-2009 at 05:04 PM

not for nothing...

suppose Bia and I are out fishing and i catch the first two fish of the day, which happen to be dorado. does that mean i'm done fishing? or can i continue to fish until the "limit" for the boat is accomplished?

if i'm allowed to continue, and while Bia has eventually caught 5 YFT and 4 yellowtail while i'm skunked the rest of the day, what if a third dorado bites my/her line? does the Capitain cut my line before the fish gets to gaff, or does the Capitain try to grab and retrieve my lure whilst letting the fish swim away?

inquiring minds...... :?:

[Edited on 10-26-2009 by woody in ob]

[Edited on 10-26-2009 by woody in ob]

TheColoradoDude - 10-25-2009 at 05:08 PM

If your fishing in the States, do you keep fishing after you have caught your limit? I know that I never troll 3 rods then I only have a license for 2. But I do understand there is quite a bit of a cultural difference between people who sport fish and those who need to feed their families. I can respect both.

[Edited on 10-26-2009 by TheColoradoDude]

BajaDanD - 10-25-2009 at 05:17 PM

I dont even like Dorado or Marlin that much. I will most likely let them all go. Fun to catch though.

flyfishinPam - 10-25-2009 at 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
How many folks need to be on the boat for a catch of 40 tuna and 12 yellowtail?

I think 8: 10 total w/ no more than 5 of any one species? Right? (I know that billfish and dorado count as more than one depending on the fish.)

Is it 'OK' to count the captain and deck hand in the total? By 'OK', I mean legal. Whether or not it's the right thing to do I'll leave alone.

Do the sportfishing limits apply to Mexican citizens also?

I'm not being picky, just curious.

i'll bite

40 tuna would require 8 anglers
yet 8 could make this catch legally if
two of those 8 anglers caught five YT in addition to their 5 tuna
and one angler caught two YT and five tuna
or
if some or all of the 8 anglers who had boated five tuna also caught a maximum of five YT

8 anglers minimum

yes sportfishing laws apply to Mexican citizens

when going over these limits or selling catch a commercial permit is needed

flyfishinPam - 10-25-2009 at 05:58 PM

maybe there's some confusion on the limits

I am told we work on a points system and 10 points is your limit
but you cannot take more than five of any one species towards that daily limit
and you can't take more than one billfish or shark
so the points go this way

each species is worth a point with the following exceptions
billfish and sharks = 5
two dorado = 5
two roosterfish = 5
other exceptions mentioned in the rule don't apply to or fishery so they won't be listed here
no limit to how many fish are caught and released (we tried to limit this within the park but were told we couldn't so that as the Mexican laws aren't that flexible)
now could you boat five yellowtail, four pargo and a dorado?
yes if you are prepared to give it to the official checking you :lol:

actually you'd probably get away with it because chances are they don't realize the dorado is 2.5 points
its always up to interpretation which makes it kinda fun

Osprey - 10-25-2009 at 07:13 PM

Pam, "Kinda fun" makes it sound lighthearted to you and your clients. I can assure you it is as serious as a cardiac infarction to your competitors and the people on their boats. They might remember that and you'll get all the jolly, drunk ones.

shari - 10-26-2009 at 06:28 AM

they should use these as those grade 4 long math problems :?:

thanks for the clarification Pam...I thought is was each dorado was worth 5 points...good news for todays anglers then.
Can you please show me in the regs where it says the captain/deckhand cant fish if they have a sport license? gracias

now about that 2.5 dorado....I guess the ones that the sealions eat half of would count as a .5!!!

flyfishinPam - 10-26-2009 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Pam, "Kinda fun" makes it sound lighthearted to you and your clients. I can assure you it is as serious as a cardiac infarction to your competitors and the people on their boats. They might remember that and you'll get all the jolly, drunk ones.

you don't find the way things are kinda fun? if I were as serious as a heart attack in any of this I wouldda had one a long time ago. don't sweat the small stuff. if you or anyone think the way I do things is illegal check us anytime our internal policies are stricter than the fisheries laws but that is by choice. and thank goodness no drunkos we stopped getting them a long time ago when we changed our rate structure. we're serious about what we do but we have fun in the process. salud.

flyfishinPam - 10-26-2009 at 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
....Can you please show me in the regs where it says the captain/deckhand cant fish if they have a sport license? gracias

no I can't because there isn't such a reg. if the captain and crew posess licenses then their limit can count towards the boat limit too. the boat limit would be the combined total of fish counting towards each angler onboard with a permit. technically they all must catch their own fish but how the hell can anyone checking the limits know this unless they saw the fish caught? if the crew is cool with giving their catch up to their clients its their business. usually in our case its the clients that end up giving it all to the captain as most of ours don't take back fish.

shari - 10-26-2009 at 08:55 PM

gracias hermana....boy do I look forward to the day we have more clients like yours!! It is INCREDIBLE the amount of fish guys have taken back.

4baja - 10-28-2009 at 06:35 AM

the two guys pictured in russes post were actualy part of a larger group that wasnt in the picture. they were probably legal.

bajabass - 10-28-2009 at 09:36 AM

Thanks for clearing this up. A similar thread on BD had me confused. I read it as 2 dorado =5 fish. Everyone was saying 1=5. Hey, 5 tuna and 2 dorado and I eat like a king for a couple weeks! Here in La Mision I usually release all but 2 or 3 fish. I prefer fresh, and I fish often enough I don't freeze it. I love it when the lings are still flipping in the cooler a half hour before they go on the grill!!! :bounce:

bill erhardt - 10-28-2009 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
bill....I dont see how you can keep more than one dorado and one rooster...each of those fish count for 5 fish each so with 2 dorado...or a dorado and 1 roosterfish...that adds up to 10 fish so you are done. You are ALLOWED 2 dorado but they would add up to 10 fish. If our clients want to keep a dorado, then they can only get 5 more fish...tuna or yellowtail, calico etc.
here are the regulations....

Shari......I did not intentionally ignore you, but was fishing yesterday and the day before outside Mag Bay (3 hoos Monday, none yesterday) And, when I got back to the dock in Lopez Mateos yesterday afternoon after two days out, I was checked for license and catch. Enforcement is catching on everywhere. In my absence it looks like Pam clarified a lot of issues that have caused confusion.

Osprey - 10-28-2009 at 02:10 PM

Pam, now I get it. Very, Very serious fun. I'm just gettin' old.

comitan - 10-28-2009 at 02:39 PM

4baja

You're a nice guy, that photo was taken at Ensenada Muertos, and I have spent many an afternoon watching the Pangas bringing in the fisherman with so may fish over the limit and many tiny dorado. Hopefully they Mexicans will start taking care of their fisheries.

shari - 10-28-2009 at 03:36 PM

thanks Bill and gracias for the on site report of how things are getting legal here so be prepared amigos...spread the word and the transition will go more smoothly once everyone understands how things are going to work....great fishing nonetheless...till today's blow.

Skipjack Joe - 10-28-2009 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
uh oh, I may have goofed. The post on BD I was referring to has been changed: they caught 40 tuna and 12 yellowtail but only kept 6. I stand corrected, if not somewhat incredulous.....

No problem. I was camped next to a guy and his buddy at BOLA who were bringing in 30 yellowtail a day off Smith Island. He kept it up until all of his coolers were full.

To him the 'limit' was the limit of the icebox. :lol:

He'd been doing it for years. I don't think he was the exception.

DianaT - 10-28-2009 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

And that post on BD could win an award for one of the fastest edited clean-up jobs---looks like they used a snow plow to move the snow in. :yes:

[Edited on 10-28-2009 by DianaT]

woody with a view - 10-28-2009 at 05:07 PM

if i can survive tomorrow, we're coming down friday. leaving OB around 3am. quick stop in El Ros to see friends and we'll be at the Campo Sirena by 2pm, i'm guessing. save me a good spot!!!!

MitchMan - 10-29-2009 at 04:39 PM

Using Shari's post of the rules as gospel, then 2 Dorado caught by one licensed fisherman = 10 fish (or 10 points) and that fisherman has limited out for the day. 2 Dorado does not equal 5 fish.

The confusion comes from ambiguously written language in the regulations:
"In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of Marlin, Sailfish, Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts a five toward the overall 10 fish limit, or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count a five toward the overall 10 fish limit.***"

The ambiguity relates to the following part of the above paragraph "... "or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count a five toward the overall 10 fish limit.***" The prepositional phrase "which count a five toward the overall 10 fish limit" describes and is the antecedent to "Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad or Tarpon" and not to the other prepositional phrase "which count a five toward the overall 10 fish limit.***"

The above argument is supported by the verbiage of the regulation that follows the above cited paragraph, in pertinent part, "if you catch 1 marlin (5 points) and 1 dorado (5 points), you have reached your limit for the day or 2 dorado; 1 dorado plus 5 miscellaneous species; or, 1 roosterfish plus 1 dorado."

It is common practice to rectify ambiguity by using references within the given document that serve to further clarify. An ambiguous phrase with no further clarifying phrases should stand as an ambiguity thus allowing for more than one interpretation, but when further verbiage is available, then the ambiguity is eliminated and only one interpretation should (and customarily will) hold validity.

All this is kind of tedious, but, ambiguity has always been my pet peeve.

msteve1014 - 10-29-2009 at 04:47 PM

Quote:

All this is kind of tedious, but, ambiguity has always been my pet peeve.

You must hate it in Mexico.

MitchMan - 10-29-2009 at 05:07 PM

Actually, in Mexico, they are mostly just straight-up wrong. Being frequently ambiguous is an art, requires intelligence, and is perfected by politicians.

mulegemichael - 10-29-2009 at 08:44 PM

oh my...have we lost touch???...with?...oh boy

shari - 10-29-2009 at 08:48 PM

Mitchman...that's how I understood it as well...or should I say...too???