BajaNomad

Rock throwing at cars on the Scenic Highway

arrowhead - 11-10-2009 at 10:06 PM

There are 3 to 4 reports per DAY of rocks being thrown at cars on the Scenic Highway. Last weekend a little 2-year old girl was hit in the head by a rock and is now near death in a TJ hospital. The article in Spanish:

http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/10112...

bajabass - 11-11-2009 at 11:36 AM

Great, now I need to wear a helmet on the way down every week.

Bajahowodd - 11-11-2009 at 11:57 AM

This sort of thing happens just about everywhere. You may have noticed that certain urban areas in particular in the US have outfitted overpases with high fences. They won't stop everything from being thrown, but do put an end to large and heavy objects. Perpetrators are usually either stupid juveniles who have no grasp of the potential consequences, or malcontents such as geng bangers.

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
There are 3 to 4 reports per DAY of rocks being thrown at cars on the Scenic Highway.


that's a lot. if we assume that for every 3 or 4 reports, an additional 6 to 8 are unreported, and assume that 5,000 cars per day travel the road, then each car passing has greater than 1/1000 chance of being target.
many of you buy lotto tickets with much worse odds.

Skipjack Joe - 11-11-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Perpetrators are usually either stupid juveniles who have no grasp of the potential consequences


I was one of them.

Yes, I was drunk but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. 50 years later, a story like this brings all the guilt back again.

woody with a view - 11-11-2009 at 02:09 PM

a good asss kicking will solve the problem. just ask me!

Bajahowodd - 11-11-2009 at 02:11 PM

Joe- While I can't speak for all, I'm gonna make a wild guess and say that many of us did stupid things when we were kids that we later regretted. Not enough time to list all of mine.:no:

DENNIS - 11-11-2009 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
I always watch the overpasses for people just hanging out. I know options are limited but you can alter speed or do a lane change if things look hokey.
Ever since the LA riots it seems I have had that paranoid trait.


You arn't the only one. When I see people lingering around on the foot bridge overpasses, I won't go beneith them if possible. I'll go over to the shoulder.

BAJACAT - 11-11-2009 at 04:36 PM

i ALWAYS drive on the left side of the rd, I don't know if that would help, and also Im always on the look out for possible trouble. I remember when this was happening in the Mexicali-San Felipe rd.

Bajahowodd - 11-11-2009 at 04:53 PM

You'd be a dead duck on the autobahn driving on the left side. In fact, geez.

bajamigo - 11-11-2009 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
You'd be a dead duck on the autobahn driving on the left side. In fact, geez.


Yes, avoid any exits marked "ausfahrt."
:yes:

BajaGringo - 11-11-2009 at 07:47 PM

Actually that was not translated accurately from the article. The linked article said that agents at the toll gate had heard of 3 or 4 similar events on the same day the little girl was hurt. A bit different from 3 to 4 events per day, implying that there are over a hundred or more such events on the toll road each month. But whatever it was it is still a very sad thing indeed.

The USA DOJ reports that carjackings and burglaries are up as well on the other side of the border. The recession/depression is leading to more and more events like this world wide and I doubt we will see things improving much anytime soon. You need to be careful wherever you go today...


Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
There are 3 to 4 reports per DAY of rocks being thrown at cars on the Scenic Highway.


that's a lot. if we assume that for every 3 or 4 reports, an additional 6 to 8 are unreported, and assume that 5,000 cars per day travel the road, then each car passing has greater than 1/1000 chance of being target.
many of you buy lotto tickets with much worse odds.





[Edited on 11-12-2009 by BajaGringo]

fdt - 11-11-2009 at 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Actually that was not translated accurately from the article.

By arrowhead again.

bajamigo - 11-11-2009 at 10:29 PM

Here's most of the article with references:

There have been other recent reports of vehicles "stoned" on the scenic highway):

"Ya había reportes de autos apedreados en carretera escénica"

"When we warned the caseta personnel, they said to us that they had received three or four reports during the day." ...

"He said that around 21:00 pm going from Ensenada to Tijuana and soon after passing la Mision near an off ramp, he felt a blow to his vehicle but, seeing that another car was parked and lights out in this lane, decided not to stop." ... "Because the blow was on the left side, opposite the hill, they assume that someone near the ridge was waiting for the car to pass (and) hit it right under the back window."

This event was reported to Caminos y Puentes Federales (Capufe) and to the military checkpoint after the caseta.

BTW, Capufe has refused to indemnify travelers for losses they have incurred from rock throwers.
____
<http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/10112009/413436.aspx>
____

"Krystel Gómez
agomez@frontera.info

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by bajamigo]

arrowhead - 11-11-2009 at 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Actually that was not translated accurately from the article. The linked article said that agents at the toll gate had heard of 3 or 4 similar events on the same day the little girl was hurt. A bit different from 3 to 4 events per day, implying that there are over a hundred or more such events on the toll road each month.


Well Ron, I'm not sure where to start. First of all, if you followed the news, you probably would know that the little girl was hurt the evening of November 8th, while the article I posted was of incidents that occured on November 10th. So right out of the gate we already have rock attacks on two separate days.

And if you cared to dig in you would also find this report where the police say they received three reports of rock throwing at 7:30PM, 9PM and 10:15PM on November 10:

http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/10112...

...and you might have seen this article that says there were no less than "half a dozen" rock attacks the weekend of October 19.

http://www.ensenada.net/noticias/?id=15795

...and if you really wanted to do a thorough job, you would read the readers comments on those news articles. It seems a lot of people have a story to tell about getting hit with rocks on the Scenic Highway.

TheColoradoDude - 11-11-2009 at 11:47 PM

This is a problem. Any word on if anything is being done about this?

arrowhead - 11-12-2009 at 12:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fdt
By arrowhead again.


Pull in your fangs, Fernando.

En boca del mentiroso, lo cierto se hace dudoso.

This ones for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDIuRjtZ4Is

fdt - 11-12-2009 at 06:41 AM


The Gull - 11-12-2009 at 07:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Actually that was not translated accurately from the article. The linked article said that agents at the toll gate had heard of 3 or 4 similar events on the same day the little girl was hurt. A bit different from 3 to 4 events per day, implying that there are over a hundred or more such events on the toll road each month.


Well Ron, I'm not sure where to start. First of all, if you followed the news, you probably would know that the little girl was hurt the evening of November 8th, while the article I posted was of incidents that occured on November 10th. So right out of the gate we already have rock attacks on two separate days.

And if you cared to dig in you would also find this report where the police say they received three reports of rock throwing at 7:30PM, 9PM and 10:15PM on November 10:

http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/10112...

...and you might have seen this article that says there were no less than "half a dozen" rock attacks the weekend of October 19.

http://www.ensenada.net/noticias/?id=15795

...and if you really wanted to do a thorough job, you would read the readers comments on those news articles. It seems a lot of people have a story to tell about getting hit with rocks on the Scenic Highway.


Everyone must leave Baja immediately before this epidemic of terrorists using weapons of glass destruction get you.

BajaGringo - 11-12-2009 at 07:13 AM

“Cuando avisamos a personal de las casetas, nos dijeron que ye habían recibido tres o cuatro reportes en el día”, manifestó la señora Hernández, quien hace unas semanas viajaba por la Carretera Escénica junto a su esposo e hija y una roca los impactó por el lado izquierdo....

Sorry Nancy, but you can paint this any color you want with as many articles as you can find but you still did not translate it correctly. The article said that they received 3 or four reports that day. That is en el dia - not por dia.

I am sure there have been other reports of rock throwing on the toll road - and if the little girl was hurt on a different day that remains a tragic event either way. That is something that happens on highways north and south of the border unfortunately. I only noted that the article did not say that they were receiving 3 to 4 per day as you incorrectly translated.

No charge for the Spanish lesson...

Hilarious

djh - 11-12-2009 at 07:37 AM

I just about laughed coffee out my nose watching the "One semester of Spanish ~ Spanish Love Song" that Fernando posted !!!!

arrowhead - 11-12-2009 at 08:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Sorry Nancy, but you can paint this any color you want with as many articles as you can find but you still did not translate it correctly.


Ron, try to stretch your mind around this concept: My first post here was a one-sentence summarization of news from several sources. Look at it again. Where did I say I was translating anything? I posted a link to one news article. I showed you several news articles that clearly show that the rock throwing is happening every day. Instead of addressing the content of the news, you and Fernando want to pick a fight with the messenger. Fernando is the Sancho Panza to your Don Quixote.

If you have so much energy, why don't you trot on down to the Catastro in Ensenanda and get copies of those documents that show the major US auto manufacturers all own land down in Colonet -- as you claimed the other day? That would be a good way to establish your credibility here.

You act like a petulant child.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by arrowhead]

Eugenio - 11-12-2009 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo

The USA DOJ reports that carjackings and burglaries are up as well on the other side of the border.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by BajaGringo]


Bajagringo - I'm not doubting you - but could you give us a specific reference or link for this DOJ inf. I'm familiar with their site. Thanks.

fdt - 11-12-2009 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Where did I say I was translating anything?

You are right, you didn't say, you just did.
Saludos
The coiled snake aka Sancho Panza
:P

fdt - 11-12-2009 at 01:17 PM

The rock throwers have been caught, they say they did it for fun.
http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/12112...


The Gull - 11-12-2009 at 01:42 PM

They look like they threw weapons of glass destruction EVERY DAY for MONTHS.

This thread has gotten very interesting with the personal assaults.:lol::lol:

Personal assults

Dave - 11-12-2009 at 02:19 PM

One of the alleged perps is from New York City.

fdt - 11-12-2009 at 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by The Gull
This thread has gotten very interesting with the personal assaults.:lol::lol:

Who, what. were? :rolleyes:

arrowhead - 11-12-2009 at 03:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
One of the alleged perps is from New York City.


"ZOO" York City

doradodan - 11-12-2009 at 04:11 PM

No joke!!, two years ago I was assaulted on my way to san felipe broke my sternum and six ribs. Four pound rock through the windshield at 55mph

Bajahowodd - 11-12-2009 at 04:46 PM

Hmmm. Juveniles who had no understanding of the consequences. I guess it's safe for people to venture forth in BC again! That includes you, Mr. Arrowhead.:lol:

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by Bajahowodd]

fdt - 11-12-2009 at 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by doradodan
No joke!!, two years ago I was assaulted on my way to san felipe broke my sternum and six ribs. Four pound rock through the windshield at 55mph

I remember...
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=21154#pid1883...

BajaGringo - 11-12-2009 at 07:38 PM

It was a news report I heard while driving the other day. Did a quick search on google and came up with lots of results. Here is just one...

Carjacking on the rise, partly due to economic woes

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo

The USA DOJ reports that carjackings and burglaries are up as well on the other side of the border.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by BajaGringo]


Bajagringo - I'm not doubting you - but could you give us a specific reference or link for this DOJ inf. I'm familiar with their site. Thanks.

greybaby - 11-12-2009 at 10:39 PM

As a kid growing up in a small town in Montana, we threw snowballs at passing cars on Highway 10 before the interstate was built. One night a "good" group of us were on our way to sing at the local nursing home when one of the boys threw a snowball at a car going through town and the driver chased us down at the nursing home. We didn't look like such "good" kids when he got done with his tongue lashing and how we could have killed someone in his car. Must say, we thought twice (well maybe once) before we threw the next one. But, seriously, this is dangerous and I hope it stops before someone is seriously hurt.

Eugenio - 11-13-2009 at 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
It was a news report I heard while driving the other day. Did a quick search on google and came up with lots of results. Here is just one...

Carjacking on the rise, partly due to economic woes

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo

The USA DOJ reports that carjackings and burglaries are up as well on the other side of the border.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by BajaGringo]


Bajagringo - I'm not doubting you - but could you give us a specific reference or link for this DOJ inf. I'm familiar with their site. Thanks.


Thanks Bajagringo - In this article the DOJ's definicion of carjacking is quoted - but not much else comes from the DOJ.

The article doesn't support the headline.

A reference is made to the NYTimes study that about 300 carjackings occurred in Detroit during August 09. But no mention is made whether that is an increase or decrease.

The DOJ website only includes stats on carjacking up to about 2006 - and that trend is decreasing. The trend in car burglaries is down (decrease) through 2008 per DOJ.

Would you mind listing some of the other results you came up with? Preferably something that covers more than one city.

Again - I'm not doubting you - I just like to keep track of some of this stuff.

Thanks.

BajaGringo - 11-13-2009 at 05:14 AM

Eugenio - the original report I heard was on the radio while driving from San Francisco to LA the other day. It wasn't anything I read online and was included in a general story of the effects of the down economy on California. I have family members working in law enforcement in California and they also tell me they are seeing a spike in burglaries/robberies where they work in the LA / central California areas.

If I can find a direct link to the DOJ data cited in the report I will u2u it to you.

Eugenio - 11-13-2009 at 10:00 AM

Thanks Bajagringo - or feel free to post any info you have here. I guess what kind of piqued my interest in your comment was that here in Sacramento we are experiencing significant decreases in almost all types of crime year to year 2008/2009. And Sacramento is practically ground zero as far as foreclosures and job loss/state furloughs.

http://www.sacpd.org/crime/stats/

The exception is rape in Sacramento - maybe because of domestic stress - I don't claim to know.

Crime in Los Angeles is also down significantly year to year:

http://www.lapdonline.org/

Chau man.

[Edited on 11-13-2009 by Eugenio]

tripledigitken - 11-13-2009 at 10:18 AM

With few exceptions according to the referenced report, crime in almost all categories is down nationwide 2008 over 2007.

Ken

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_12.html

Bajahowodd - 11-13-2009 at 02:57 PM

That crime rates would drop during tough economic times is counter to both historical experience and intuitition. That said, bear in mind that such statistical reporting has a built in lag time. Would seem to me that foreclosures and job loss will have been greater in 2009 than 2008. Just thinking that the next report might just reverse the trend of the last one. Almost every day, while driving around Orange County, I see a newly vacated storefront.

[Edited on 11-15-2009 by Bajahowodd]

arrowhead - 11-13-2009 at 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
That crime rates would drop during tough economic times is counter to both historical experience and intuitition.


It is not counter-intuitive when you consider that illegal immigrants are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of the crimes, and they are moving back to you-know-where in droves. The crime rate drops here and increases there.

Such is the ying and yang of life.

tripledigitken - 11-13-2009 at 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
That crime rates would drop during tough economic times is counter to both historical experience and intuitition. That said, bear in mind that such statistical reportinng has a built in lag time. Would seem to me that foreclosures and job loss will have been greater in 2009 than 2008. Just thinking that the next report might just reverse the trend of the last one. Almost every day, while driving around Orange County, I see a newly vacated storefront.


It's frustrating to me aswell when the facts don't support my position.

San Diego crime report through Sept 2009. some categories up but most down

http://www.sdsheriff.net/documents/q3_2009.pdf

[Edited on 11-13-2009 by tripledigitken]

Eugenio - 11-14-2009 at 09:53 AM

My first thought was that maybe with the cutbacks in the number of police, the number of cases filed was less - but for these types of crimes I don't think that would be true - especially car theft where insurance companies are involved and murder where there's a body to deal with.

As for historical trends I haven't seen anything that really correlates crime rates with the economy in the US - about the only thing that I can see is that crime overall has been on a downward trend for the last 20 years or so.

Counter intuitive things are what makes life interesting - they make you step back, think, and reevaluate you beliefs. That is unless you were just plain disingenuous from the beginning.

Bajahowodd - 11-14-2009 at 05:09 PM

I'm not so sure than it's the illegals who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. I welcome your statistical evidence. After all, if you were in this country illegally, would you not want to maintain the lowest possible profile? So that is counter-intuitive.

Ying?

Dave - 11-14-2009 at 05:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead

Such is the ying and yang of life.



Is that the sound a Chinese phone makes?

And what if there's no one around to hear it?

fdt - 11-14-2009 at 08:09 PM

Not intending to take us away from the hijaking of this thread but I have to inform that little Karem has passed away.
http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/14112...


DAMN!!!

Dave - 11-14-2009 at 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fdt
Not intending to take us away from the hijaking of this thread but I have to inform that little Karem has passed away.
http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/14112...



Anger and Heartbreak. :no::no:

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 08:29 PM

That is so sad. What a terrible waste.

Paulina - 11-14-2009 at 08:46 PM

How very sad. Her parents must be devistated and very angry. Will this group of boys now be held accountable for her death?

P<*)))>{

fdt - 11-14-2009 at 09:14 PM

2 of the rock throwers are 18 years of age so will be tried as adults. The other 3 are 14, 15 and 17 and it is to be determined.
Now it is homicide.

[Edited on 11-15-2009 by fdt]

Paulina - 11-14-2009 at 09:18 PM

Thank you for the reply, fdt. I would like to hear how it plays out. What a horrible waste of a beautiful child's life.

fdt - 11-14-2009 at 09:48 PM

indeed

arrowhead - 11-15-2009 at 01:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm not so sure than it's the illegals who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. I welcome your statistical evidence.


According to INS and FBI statistics from 2006, 29 percent of all the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens.

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/9902

Estimated number of illegal aliens in the US = 12,000,000
Current US population = 308,000,000
Percentage of US population that is illegal = 4%
Percentage of illegals in US prisons = 29%
Therefore illegal aliens are overrepresented in prisons by a factor of 7.5:1.

That really understates the numbers, since 100% of illegals are breaking US laws just by being here, their crime rate is 100%. Why, if I may ask, would you think that people who knowingly break US laws by entering illegally and knowingly work here without legal work rights, would somehow be honest and upright members of society in all other matters? ?

CaboRon - 11-15-2009 at 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm not so sure than it's the illegals who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. I welcome your statistical evidence.


According to INS and FBI statistics from 2006, 29 percent of all the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens.

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/9902

Estimated number of illegal aliens in the US = 12,000,000
Current US population = 308,000,000
Percentage of US population that is illegal = 4%
Percentage of illegals in US prisons = 29%
Therefore illegal aliens are overrepresented in prisons by a factor of 7.5:1.

That really understates the numbers, since 100% of illegals are breaking US laws just by being here, their crime rate is 100%. Why, if I may ask, would you think that people who knowingly break US laws by entering illegally and knowingly work here without legal work rights, would somehow be honest and upright members of society in all other matters? ?


The politically correct might dissagree ... However you speak the truth ...


arrowhead - 11-16-2009 at 09:00 AM

There's an editorial in today's El Vigia that pretty much takes the wind out of Bajagabacho's comparative road crimes theories:

http://host.elvigia.net/noticias/?seccion=generales&id=5...


"La escénica es cara y peligrosa " ( The Scenic Highway is expensive and dangerous). The article goes on to list all the crimes reported there in the last two years. If you Google translate it, it translates very well. Here's the summary:

37+500 Secuestro, homicidio y robo de auto (K37.5 kdinapping, murder and robbery)

31+300 Secuestro (K31.3 kidnapping)

34+500 Secuestro (K34.5 kidnapping)

58+500 Homicidio calificado (K58.5 murder)

Caseta 34 12 ilícitos reportados (Toll booth 34 12 crimes reported)

Caseta 35 6 ilícitos reportados (Tool booth 35 6 crimes reported)

Bulevar 2000 y Popotla 4 casos (Boulevard 2000 at Popotla 4 cases)

La Misión 4 casos (La Misión 4 cases )

The editorial goes to say that government officials have never made this information public.

Bajahowodd - 11-16-2009 at 01:57 PM

Why, if I may ask, would you think that people who knowingly break US laws by entering illegally and knowingly work here without legal work rights, would somehow be honest and upright members of society in all other matters? ?

Because so many of them are here to earn money for their families back home and wouldn't want to have that interrupted and be sent back. And while not making any value judgment here, a huge percentage of those illegals either don't believe they have committed a crime by entering, or believe they have some sort of entitlement to do so.

Trust me mofo!

Sharksbaja - 11-16-2009 at 02:33 PM

I concur. Consider that in order to get a job illegals must lie. I guess that means that as far as trust goes.....it makes you wonder:no:

My mom used to say "Once a liar always a liar". Seems most children outgrow lying but illegals never can or do.

Also it seems like lying is becoming the norm in our society. Politicians, moviestars bla bla get caught all the time, no biggie anymore.

Yikes!

tripledigitken - 11-16-2009 at 02:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And while not making any value judgment here, a huge percentage of those illegals either don't believe they have committed a crime by entering, or believe they have some sort of entitlement to do so.


I can't argue the entitlement mentality............as many native born Americans have the same thought process.........

BUT to say illegals don't believe they have committed a crime by entering the states is ludicrous. You really don't believe that do you?

Many pay coyotes, hide in trunks, brave the 100 degree desert heat to cross, crawl through sewers, and once in try to evade border check points. How clear does it have to be that what they are doing is illegal?
:?::?::?:

DENNIS - 11-16-2009 at 03:05 PM

I wouldn't have any problem lying if I was hungry nor if my family a thousand miles away was hungry.
I mean...lying? I'm not even sure that's a sin any more.

Dave - 11-16-2009 at 03:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
I concur. Consider that in order to get a job illegals must lie. I guess that means that as far as trust goes.....it makes you wonder:no:


You think that's the way it works?

If so, employers must be real dumbasses . ;D;D

Skipjack Joe - 11-16-2009 at 04:06 PM

Everyone lies when pushed far enough.

Well, almost everyone .....

Joan-of-Arc-s-Death-at-the-.jpg - 48kB

roads

wessongroup - 11-16-2009 at 04:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Actually that was not translated accurately from the article. The linked article said that agents at the toll gate had heard of 3 or 4 similar events on the same day the little girl was hurt. A bit different from 3 to 4 events per day, implying that there are over a hundred or more such events on the toll road each month. But whatever it was it is still a very sad thing indeed.

The USA DOJ reports that carjackings and burglaries are up as well on the other side of the border. The recession/depression is leading to more and more events like this world wide and I doubt we will see things improving much anytime soon. You need to be careful wherever you go today...


Well said..


Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
There are 3 to 4 reports per DAY of rocks being thrown at cars on the Scenic Highway.


that's a lot. if we assume that for every 3 or 4 reports, an additional 6 to 8 are unreported, and assume that 5,000 cars per day travel the road, then each car passing has greater than 1/1000 chance of being target.
many of you buy lotto tickets with much worse odds.





[Edited on 11-12-2009 by BajaGringo]

Eugenio - 12-17-2009 at 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm not so sure than it's the illegals who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. I welcome your statistical evidence.


According to INS and FBI statistics from 2006, 29 percent of all the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens.

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/9902

Estimated number of illegal aliens in the US = 12,000,000
Current US population = 308,000,000
Percentage of US population that is illegal = 4%
Percentage of illegals in US prisons = 29%
Therefore illegal aliens are overrepresented in prisons by a factor of 7.5:1.

That really understates the numbers, since 100% of illegals are breaking US laws just by being here, their crime rate is 100%. Why, if I may ask, would you think that people who knowingly break US laws by entering illegally and knowingly work here without legal work rights, would somehow be honest and upright members of society in all other matters? ?


The politically correct might dissagree ... However you speak the truth ...



The gradual decrease in crime that has been experienced in the US over the past 15 years or so corresponds with an overall increase in illegal immigration (last year or so excepted) - so I know you guys would be the first to stand up and attribute that decrease in crime to the calming influence of illegals.

(this is what you get when simpleminded dopes with an agenda take on a situation with a lot of variables)

And Arrowhead - I'm not buying your prison stats - they've been floating around the internet for months - but nobody really seems to be able to verify them with hard data - that is the source - - care to show us the original references for the (supposed) INS and FBI stats?

Chau muchachos.

Bajahowodd - 12-17-2009 at 02:28 PM

"The gradual decrease in crime that has been experienced in the US over the past 15 years or so corresponds with an overall increase in illegal immigration (last year or so excepted) - so I know you guys would be the first to stand up and attribute that decrease in crime to the calming influence of illegals."


Like during economic boom times, when there were more jobs than workers available?

:?:

arrowhead - 12-17-2009 at 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
And Arrowhead - I'm not buying your prison stats - they've been floating around the internet for months - but nobody really seems to be able to verify them with hard data - that is the source - - care to show us the original references for the (supposed) INS and FBI stats?

Chau muchachos.


OK, would you take the word of the Government Accounting Office in a report to Congress?


Quote:

Summary
The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that as of January 2000 the total unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States was 7 million. This total includes those who entered the United States illegally and those who entered legally but overstayed their authorized period of stay. A more recent study estimated that there were about 10 million illegal aliens living in the United States as of March 2005. The study estimated that nearly 700,000 aliens entered the United States illegally or overstayed their authorized period of stay each year between 2000 and 2004. Some illegal aliens in the United States have been arrested and incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails, adding to already overcrowded prisons and jails. On April 7, 2005, we issued a report on criminal aliens that were incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. Our report contained information on the number of criminal aliens incarcerated, their country of citizenship or country of birth, and the cost to incarcerate them. Congress also requested that we provide information on the criminal history of aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons or local jails who had entered the country illegally. For a population of aliens that entered the country illegally and were incarcerated in federal or state prisons or local jails, this report addresses the following questions: (1) How many times have they been arrested? (2) How many and what type of criminal offenses have they been arrested for? (3) What states were they arrested in?

In our population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, we found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990. They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud--including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice. Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states--California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf


..and check out table 2 in this pdf from the DOJ:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf

Quote:
Imprisonment rate per 100,000 population 2008:

White males: 487
Hispanic males: 1200


Just some advice, when you are in a debate NEVER ask a question that you do not already know the answer to.

Skipjack Joe - 12-17-2009 at 06:58 PM

Poor Joan. I think you're right, though. I hear they usually die of smoke inhalation before .... you know. I suppose it's better that way.

Eugenio - 12-18-2009 at 02:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm not so sure than it's the illegals who are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. I welcome your statistical evidence.


According to INS and FBI statistics from 2006, 29 percent of all the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens.

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/9902

Estimated number of illegal aliens in the US = 12,000,000
Current US population = 308,000,000
Percentage of US population that is illegal = 4%
Percentage of illegals in US prisons = 29%
Therefore illegal aliens are overrepresented in prisons by a factor of 7.5:1.

That really understates the numbers, since 100% of illegals are breaking US laws just by being here, their crime rate is 100%. Why, if I may ask, would you think that people who knowingly break US laws by entering illegally and knowingly work here without legal work rights, would somehow be honest and upright members of society in all other matters? ?


Percentage of illegals in US prisons = 29% ??? Yeah - right.

These reports don't in any way address the percentage of illegal aliens in the US prison system - in fact they show you're wrong.

Geez man - did you think I wasn't going to read them?

The first reference doesn't say anything about the non-illegal alien prison population - so it's worthless as far as calculating the percentage of illegals in the prison population.

As for your second reference your quote is misleading (as usual) - these numbers are based on the "referenced" population - not the general population - read the methodology if you can. In other words incarceration rates for whites are about 0.5% and 1.2% for hispanics. That's "hispanics" - not "illegal aliens".

In addition your second reference claims 34% of sentenced prisoners are white - and 20% hispanic. (see data directly above Table 1) Great - now please explain to me how you get "29% illegals in the prison population". It's impossible - unless of course you had many many millions of white illegal aliens running around committing crimes.

But that can't be true because we all know that white folk don't do crime like hispanics and blacks.

sheesh dude - what a friggin waste of time it is asking you to be anything even remotely close to honest....

k-rico - 12-18-2009 at 04:17 AM

Whoa Nellie, stop the presses!

Aren't there illegal aliens in prison for BEING illegal aliens, and not committing any other crimes? The euphemism is "ICE detainees". I don't think there are any people in prison for being legal.

Comparing the two using ratios is problematic. Isn't it?

Dang it, we're arresting all the short people because they're short. We don't bother tall people unless they have six fingers on each hand. And you know something, there's a lot more short people in prison than you woulda thunk eventhough most people are tall.

And then there's the prison vs. jail thingamaroo. Illegal immigration is a federal offense. The federal gov doesn't run jails, only prisons. So if you're an ICE detainee, even for one week before deportation, you're in prison. Legal folks don't go to prison unless the sentence is one year or more. Under that you're in a city or county jail.

Send my bail to the Tijuana jail.

I usually am confused, so I could be confused. If so, nevermind.

Safe Harbor Statement:

If the premise that ICE detainees are counted as part of the prison population is untrue, then I'm entirely incorrect.


[Edited on 12-18-2009 by k-rico]

wessongroup - 12-18-2009 at 05:01 AM

"According to"... just a couple of thoughts .. "Gulf of Tonkin" ... "Yellow Cake"... Colin Powell and all brought to you from your Government...

I take government reports under advisement....:):)

k-rico - 12-18-2009 at 05:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

I take government reports under advisement....:):)


The inability of WWAY TV News Channel 3 reporters to read and comprehend (article cited by arrowhead) is probably more of an issue.

DENNIS - 12-18-2009 at 08:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
If the premise that ICE detainees are counted as part of the prison population is untrue, then I'm entirely incorrect.



There's a difference between jail and prison. I doubt illegals are sent to prison only for being illegal.

k-rico - 12-18-2009 at 08:35 AM

Office of Detention and Removal (DRO)

"Simply stated, DRO's ultimate goal is to develop the capacity to identify and remove all removable aliens"

DRO secures bed space in detention facilities, and monitors these facilities for compliance with national Detention Standards. The standards specify the living conditions appropriate for detainees. These standards have been collated and published in the Detention Operations Manual. This Manual provides uniform policies and procedures concerning the treatment of individuals detained by ICE.

ICE operates eight secure detention facilities called Service Processing Centers (SPCs). They are located in Aguadilla, Puerto Rico; Batavia, New York; El Centro, California; El Paso, Texas; Florence, Arizona; Miami, Florida; Los Fresnos, Texas; and San Pedro, California. The newest SPC, the Buffalo Federal Detention Facility, is unique because in addition to its 300 beds for detained aliens, it has 150 beds for use by the U.S. Marshals Service.

ICE augments its SPC's with seven contract detention facilities. These facilities are located in Aurora, Colorado; Houston, Texas; Laredo, Texas; Seattle, Washington; Elizabeth, New Jersey; Queens, New York; and San Diego, California. ICE also uses state and local jails on a reimbursable detention day basis and has joint federal facilities with the Bureau of Prisons, the Federal Detention Center in Oakdale, Louisiana, and the contractor owned and operated (with the Bureau of Prisons) criminal alien facility in Eloy, Arizona. In addition, major expansion initiatives are underway at several SPCs' to enhance DROs detention capabilities.

http://www.ice.gov/pi/dro/


[Edited on 12-18-2009 by k-rico]

DENNIS - 12-18-2009 at 08:41 AM

Is that just FYI stuff or a reply to my comment?

Taco de Baja - 12-18-2009 at 09:18 AM

In doing some research on the number of people in prison, probation, or parole in the USA, I've discovered a link between the prison population in the USA and global warming (or, CO2 levels, if you prefer)! The rising curves are very similar. If we don't do something soon the prison population may reach 15,201,006 by 2050 and possibly as high as 45,300,601 by 2100!


Other tidbits from good-ole Wikipedia:



5.9% is still higher (50% higher) than their over all percent of the population 12,000,000 / 308,000,000 = 3.9%.

--------------------------







[Edited on 12-18-2009 by Taco de Baja]

DENNIS - 12-18-2009 at 09:23 AM

WOW.....What happened in 1980 to elevate the incarcerated population so dramatically?

The Gull - 12-18-2009 at 09:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
WOW.....What happened in 1980 to elevate the incarcerated population so dramatically?


Reagan Welfare Cuts and Workfare programs.:lol:

NFL roster reductions?:lol:

End of the Draft?:lol:

Martyman - 12-18-2009 at 09:46 AM

Jails changed their philosophy from rehabilitation to punishment in the 1980s. The recitivism rates skyrocketed. Prison are seeing the mistake finally and starting to work on rehab again.

lingililingili - 12-18-2009 at 09:52 AM

I just now read about Karem and I am very sorry, my thoughts are with her parents.

comitan - 12-18-2009 at 10:08 AM

The incarcerated Americans chart leads me to believe that the fault for the increase starting in the eighties is the fault of Dr. Spock, that is in the time frame for when his teachings would be having an effect.:lol::yes::lol:

DENNIS - 12-18-2009 at 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by comitan
The incarcerated Americans chart leads me to believe that the fault for the increase starting in the eighties is the fault of Dr. Spock, that is in the time frame for when his teachings would be having an effect.:lol::yes::lol:


Yep...Just a few more spankings and the world would be a better place. :lol::lol:

arrowhead - 12-18-2009 at 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
WOW.....What happened in 1980 to elevate the incarcerated population so dramatically?


Doncha remember all that "get-tough-on-crime" legislation during the Reagan years? Remember three strikes, and all those increased jail-terms that were legislated?

k-rico - 12-18-2009 at 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
WOW.....What happened in 1980 to elevate the incarcerated population so dramatically?


Perhaps:

In 1986 Congress enacted mandatory minimum sentencing laws, which force judges to deliver fixed sentences to individuals convicted of a crime, regardless of culpability or other mitigating factors. Individual states had started earlier.

Add to that the 3 strikes laws enacted later by various states which also limit the power of judges.

"There is no justice without judgement." - Captain James T. Kirk, Captain, Starship Enterprise. Great episode where Kirk once again violates the Prime Directive after getting an alien piece of tail. ;D

[Edited on 12-18-2009 by k-rico]

Eugenio - 12-18-2009 at 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
WOW.....What happened in 1980 to elevate the incarcerated population so dramatically?


Doncha remember all that "get-tough-on-crime" legislation during the Reagan years? Remember three strikes, and all those increased jail-terms that were legislated?


Wazzup Arrowhead? - You still haven't explained to us how your source estimates a 20% hispanic prison population but you claim 29% of prisoners are illegl aliens.

Don't be changing the subject on us dude - you've got us at the edge of our seats here.

DENNIS - 12-18-2009 at 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead

Doncha remember all that "get-tough-on-crime" legislation during the Reagan years? Remember three strikes, and all those increased jail-terms that were legislated?


Yeah...now that you mention it.
Jeeeezo...Didn't overcrowding or the high wage demands of the Pervert Prison Guard's union occur to anybody?

arrowhead - 12-18-2009 at 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
Wazzup Arrowhead? - You still haven't explained to us how your source estimates a 20% hispanic prison population but you claim 29% of prisoners are illegl aliens.

Don't be changing the subject on us dude - you've got us at the edge of our seats here.


Wazzup wid ju mon? Doncha read? I didn't respond because Taco de Baja answered it in his post.

Let us refresh. You said:

Quote:
The first reference doesn't say anything about the non-illegal alien prison population - so it's worthless as far as calculating the percentage of illegals in the prison population.


Taco de Baja posted a statistic that was directly from the reference I first posted, to wit:

Quote:
A 2005 report estimated that 27% of federal prison inmates are noncitizens, convicted of crimes while in the country legally or illegally.


So it appears you were in error about it not saying anything about the non-illegal alien prison population Now, granted that is just the federal prison population and does not include state and local prisons. However, you have already agreed with my prior post that showed that the Hispanic imprisonment rate is 240% of the white non-hispanic imprisonment rate (remember, .5% vs. 1.2%?)

So, you are left with the untenable argument that the legal Hispanic rate is 240% of the white non-hispanic rate, while the illegal Hispanic rate is not. To make your argument even more vacuous, the report clearly states that the average illegal alien in jail had eight criminal charges. Good luck with that argument, homeboy.

Eugenio - 12-18-2009 at 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
In doing some research on the number of people in prison, probation, or parole in the USA, I've discovered a link between the prison population in the USA and global warming (or, CO2 levels, if you prefer)! The rising curves are very similar. If we don't do something soon the prison population may reach 15,201,006 by 2050 and possibly as high as 45,300,601 by 2100!


Other tidbits from good-ole Wikipedia:


  • In 2002, 93.2% of prisoners were male. About 10.4% of all black males in the United States between the ages of 25 and 29 were sentenced and in prison, compared to 2.4% of Hispanic males and 1.3% of white males.

  • In 2005, about 1 out of every 136 U.S. residents was incarcerated either in prison or jail.

  • A 2005 report estimated that 27% of federal prison inmates are noncitizens, convicted of crimes while in the country legally or illegally. However, federal prison inmates are only a 6 percent of the total incarcerated population; noncitizen populations in state and local prisons are more difficult to establish. The World Prison Brief puts the total number of foreign prisoners in all federal, state and local facilities at 5.9%.


5.9% is still higher (50% higher) than their over all percent of the population 12,000,000 / 308,000,000 = 3.9%.

--------------------------







[Edited on 12-18-2009 by Taco de Baja]


No - as a matter of fact Taco didn't use your reference - he used his own.

You just did a little created cropping because you know you're wrong.

And his reference claimed an estimated foreign incarceration rate of 5.9% for Fedral and local.

That's foreign - not illegal. The illegal figure would be less than the foreign figure.

Personally I think it should be 0 - if the US really wanted to protect it's borders - but that's another topic.

The topic here is that you must be dyslexic or bisca ....or have some reading problem or something so you have to just make things up.

Carry on girl.