BajaNomad - OFF ROAD RACING POLL for all Nomads

OFF ROAD RACING POLL for all Nomads

David K - 11-18-2009 at 06:32 PM

With the 42nd annual running of the Baja 1000 off road race this week... and the obvious popularity the sport has in Baja... and the great financial benefit the race has...

What is your opinion?

norte - 11-18-2009 at 06:49 PM

But why the poll. trying for more controversy and posts?

Diver - 11-18-2009 at 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by norte
But why the poll. trying for more controversy and posts?

Well, there goes your controversy and here comes some more posts !

vgabndo - 11-18-2009 at 09:16 PM

I was an off road racer. The operative word there is WAS. I voted that truth, but I have been unlucky enough to be running against the flow going home from La Paz. I don't know how it can ever come to pass that the racers going home were rested, not hungover, and not driving at "raceface" speed pulling those wideazz trailers. I think I remember that four racers died on the way home that year. This puts innocent people at risk. I realize that there are bone deep traditions for racing in Baja. But, I think that the racers would have to agree that part of the allure of racing Baja is that there just isn't anyplace in the US that would allow any comparable thing. Should we wish any lesser protections for the Mexican people, and their land? I'd feel a little better with some good info. about economic benefits for the people. This should be an interesting discussion.

fishbuck - 11-18-2009 at 09:24 PM

I race strictly closed course motocross. But I have alot of respect for the Baja1000 racers.
I do try to avoid Baja when there is a race. Only because of traffic and crowds.
Someday I might camp out along the course and party. Might be fun. :cool:

[Edited on 11-19-2009 by fishbuck]

David K - 11-19-2009 at 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
...
I realize that there are bone deep traditions for racing in Baja. But, I think that the racers would have to agree that part of the allure of racing Baja is that there just isn't anyplace in the US that would allow any comparable thing. ...

??? Perry, there are many off road races in the US. I would think if you were a racer, you should know this?

Score has a race in Nevada, BITD has all their races in the US, so does MDR...

The Vegas to Reno off road 3 day off road race was recenlty run (America's longest off road race),

The Mint 400 was brought back, as well,

Races are run in Primm...

Laughlin has races,

Henderson, too,

Lucerne Valley, CA...

Plaster City (east of San Diego)...

Just way too many desert races to name.

It all started with the Baja run and the first organized race, the 1967 Mexican 1000.

This year's 1000 stays in Baja Norte, starting and ending in Ensenada.

shari - 11-19-2009 at 08:59 AM

Having lived many years in Guerrero Negro, i have seen how the city really appreciated the baja 1000 race for economic reasons...it is a real boom to the economy when it goes through there.
I believe this weekend is the Mulege 500 as well...we saw some trophy trucks and dirt bikes prerunning the course which goes right by our secret beach.....sheesh....I kept having to put my bikini back on!

David K - 11-19-2009 at 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
I am curious as to the great financial benefit. After costs and mitigation how much ends up in the locals hands. ...

All the racers, pit teams, spectators do one or more of the following which benefits the people of Baja: eat food, drink, buy fuel, stay at hotels, use campgrounds, have repairs made, buy insurance, etc.. It is a huge business boost, huge!

DianaT - 11-19-2009 at 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
I was an off road racer. The operative word there is WAS. I voted that truth, but I have been unlucky enough to be running against the flow going home from La Paz. I don't know how it can ever come to pass that the racers going home were rested, not hungover, and not driving at "raceface" speed pulling those wideazz trailers. I think I remember that four racers died on the way home that year. This puts innocent people at risk. I realize that there are bone deep traditions for racing in Baja. But, I think that the racers would have to agree that part of the allure of racing Baja is that there just isn't anyplace in the US that would allow any comparable thing. Should we wish any lesser protections for the Mexican people, and their land? I'd feel a little better with some good info. about economic benefits for the people. This should be an interesting discussion.

Some races in the US have been stopped for positive environmental reasons---some still exist. Just as some areas have been closed completely to off road activity, which keeps the destruction to the land more contained in limited areas.

It would be interesting to see ACTUAL figures on the financial impact, etc., especially from the Mexican point of view. And ACTUAL figures as to who really benefits financially. It is often easy to say an entire community benefits when only a very select few benefit.

I do know many locals who love the races, and others who hate what it does to the environment---divided, just as it is here.

capt. mike - 11-19-2009 at 09:43 AM

looking forward to following my teams on line tomorrow.
i will chase via findmespot and others.

go DP Racing!!!!!

bajalou - 11-19-2009 at 10:29 AM

In San Felipe a lot of the local businesses benefit from the races. Even the 100 which just passes through. Pre-runners have been in town for a couple weeks, staying at local motels and campgrounds, eating in a variety of restaurants, getting vehicles repaired at local shops, groceries and beer at the local stores - about everything in tow except the elect company.

The Score races are really controlled course races - not the old "cross country wherever you can" type. Marked course that must be followed or be penalized.

The 250 that starts and ends her really picks up the local economy.

They also welcome the CODE races. More Mexican participants so less motel usage but still restaurants etc get a boost. The Mexicali-San Felipe race will be about Dec 5th I think.

DianaT - 11-19-2009 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

The Score races are really controlled course races - not the old "cross country wherever you can" type. Marked course that must be followed or be penalized.

That is a good thing

DENNIS - 11-19-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
The Score races are really controlled course races - not the old "cross country wherever you can" type. Marked course that must be followed or be penalized.

If there are problems, and I'm sure there are some, it's probably the fans, spectators and groupies who cause most of them.

Skipjack Joe - 11-19-2009 at 02:04 PM

What about the sandhill crane at San Felipe that hasn't laid an egg in 3 years?

Huh? What about her?

You heartless people.

Talk about constipation ....

vgabndo - 11-19-2009 at 03:41 PM

David, you seem to have missed this part..."anyplace in the US that would allow any comparable thing". I don't believe that any of the US races you cited are run on the same roads the locals have to use. Are the local's roads in better condition after a race? I can't imagine they could be. Do you think for a second that IF racers were allowed to use the public roads in the US that they wouldn't be required to repair them.

Of course there are still races held on public ground in the US but I believe it is true that there are VERY few other uses of these public lands that are compatible with off road races. Increasingly, the citizens are asking that their pristine desert lands be protected. Personally I think that everyone has the right to be free of the "excitement" of approaching a hill top only to be met by an 800 HP 4x4 half sideways, five feet off the ground at 135 MPH. "Hey Sluggo, can't you see we're PreRunning here?"

Sharksbaja - 11-19-2009 at 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
The Score races are really controlled course races - not the old "cross country wherever you can" type. Marked course that must be followed or be penalized.

If there are problems, and I'm sure there are some, it's probably the fans, spectators and groupies who cause most of them.

Is a wannabe the same as a groupie. :lol:

I'll tell ya, those machines get my blood pumping.

Offroading is a lifetime addiction for many of us. I am a little suprised by the large number of ex-racers et al. Then again a lot of us grew up with a Baja adrenaline habit.

Need a fix right now asamatteroffact :smug:

rts551 - 11-19-2009 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Having lived many years in Guerrero Negro, i have seen how the city really appreciated the baja 1000 race for economic reasons...it is a real boom to the economy when it goes through there.
I believe this weekend is the Mulege 500 as well...we saw some trophy trucks and dirt bikes prerunning the course which goes right by our secret beach.....sheesh....I kept having to put my bikini back on!

Shari

My son runs this circuit. and he said there was some lady trying to distract the prerunners. The last race of the season will be in Abreojos on the 27th of Dec...

David K - 11-19-2009 at 06:42 PM

It is called 'off road' racing... but only because that sounds better, because it has ALWAYS been 'dirt road' racing, with some paved sections to connect to more dirt roads.

No Score off road race runs 'cross-country'... a road is used always because that is a cleared route between rocks and plants.

Sure, sometimes plants & rocks get hit... but far less than when that road was made!

Perry, those desert roads in the USA were not put there for racing... they are/ were ranch or mine roads being borrowed for a day. The BLM watches it closely.

The older NORRA races (1967- June, 1973) were point to point races... where any road could be used as long as each check point was used... and they mostly all used the same road, because it was the fastest route to the finish. Mexico ran the 1000 once (1973) and made a mess of it... Score was called in to take over.

Score races started in 1974 with the July 'Baja Internaciona'l and have always been highly regulated closed course races with standard check points, visual check points and secret check points to make sure the race course was used and not some shortcut through a town or rancho. No 1000 was run in '74 (the only year it was not).

Sure, there have been cheaters... they are racing for the win, afterall... However, now with the GPS tarckers on board all racers, that is going to be a thing of the past.

The damage is the garbage the local spectators leave behind after the race... not pit teams or racers, but the local spectators. Beer bottles and cans are just left behind. Hopefully, that too will change as the Mexican people become more enviromentally concerned. The racers bring excitement to an otherwise greatly unused amounts of land... When the race is over, the land is quiet again for the lizards and snakes! No great harm comes from the sport... and even the trash can be collected later.

woody with a view - 11-19-2009 at 06:54 PM

Quote:

Personally I think that everyone has the right to be free of the "excitement" of approaching a hill top only to be met by an 800 HP 4x4 half sideways, five feet off the ground at 135 MPH. "Hey Sluggo, can't you see we're PreRunning here?"

yeah, i can't see nuthing wrong with this statement at all...... 'specially if you're cruising down Hiway 1.....

rts551 - 11-19-2009 at 08:11 PM

Just for you Glenn. Kevin is third in points right now on his quad even though he missed one race and couldn't finish in another

rts551 - 11-20-2009 at 08:30 AM

Race before last. Concussion and bruised ribs, but ok enough to get second in La Bocana

David K - 11-23-2009 at 05:19 PM

Well... of those 68 who voted...

15 don't want anyone to enjoy the fun and excitement of off road racing VS. 53!

If that is the overall trend, then there is hope for the people of Baja to continue to benefit and for the rest of us to enjoy the action!

Pre-Running??

Fred-o - 11-24-2009 at 12:06 PM

It seems to be occuring someplace in Baja 24/7 X 365.

Being a "back-road" Baja traveller, the roads seem to be getting more and more torn up from the race vehicles.

Dodging pre-runners ain't much fun either.

Someone once told me that SCORE paid the ejidos for tearing up the roads,
so they could be repaired.
Don't know if that is true,
but I do know the ejidos are sure not putting money back into fixing roads.

[Edited on 11-24-2009 by Fred-o]

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 12:25 PM

Enjoy it while it last, the clock is ticking and eventually it wont be held no more.

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Enjoy it while it last, the clock is ticking and eventually it wont be held no more.

Since this race is held in Mexico, I think it is not important at all as to how gringos feel about it----it would be interesting to see how more Mexican's felt about.

From the ones I know, some participate, some love it, and some hate it----wonder which group is in the majority.

Also, curious as to why you think the clock is ticking??

Thanks for your perspective.

Diane

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 12:53 PM

The financial benefits of the race shrink each year as the economy grows, theres more landowners (and druglords) who don't want people in their land, theres more local environmentalist groups. etc etc

Racing is a big thing here in La Paz, and to some in Ensenada, but the overwhelming mayority of Mexicans in Baja are not interested in a sport they see as for rich people and drugdealers. If the goverment decided to kill the race, it wouldn't have major political costs.

Its a matter of time.

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
The financial benefits of the race shrink each year as the economy grows, theres more landowners (and druglords) who don't want people in their land, theres more local environmentalist groups. etc etc

Racing is a big thing here in La Paz, and to some in Ensenada, but the overwhelming mayority of Mexicans in Baja are not interested in a sport they see as for rich people and drugdealers. If the goverment decided to kill the race, it wouldn't have major political costs.

Its a matter of time.

Thanks

ElFaro - 11-24-2009 at 02:26 PM

There needs to be a reality check here regarding the Baja 500 and Baja 1000.

Why should the Baja Mexicans tolerate Baja as the rich So. Calif. racers sandbox for this many years? Why do you think SCORE has gotten away with these races in the past?...because the Baja Mexicans were too few and too poor to have any say about who was running roughshod over their land. SCORE simply has done an "end-around" by dealing with the Mex. government directly and bypassing the locals. But I don't think that will last. Some Mexican business people I have talked to know that the races bring virtually no economic impact to Baja.

First the myths...

1. 250,000 spectators...pure BS...and who is providing these #'s...SCORE and Sal Fish of course! They have a MAJOR PR problem right now with justifying these races in Baja. All these stats are WAGS (Wild *ss Guesses). It all depends how you define "spectators". Yea if I'm driving down the hiway and I glance over to the race course I'm I counted as a "spectator"?

2. I have seen WAGS of the races bringing in $1-4 million..more gross BS from SCORE. More like max. $100,000. Most of these racers and their support crews are self-contained...very little $'s spent in Baja...a few hotel rooms, beer, tacos, and condoms.

3. I had never been down for a Baja 500 or 1000 race until about 3 years ago. At the time my brother and I happened on a Baja 500 race in Ensenada while returning from fishing in San Quintin. We stopped at Estero Beach for the night. There was no place to park our trailer so the mgr. let us park along side the "game room" for the night. The campground was full of toy haoulers and the hotel had a few rooms booked. What I saw was a real "eye opener". All the racers were staying in the campground at $45/nite...so figure roughly 80 sites times $45 equals $3600/nite per day...for what 3 days? Maybe $10,000 for lodging for what looked like an average of 4 people per site so per person $12/day...hardly any big spenging going on here. And...everyone was eating their own food prepared in their trailers! In fact a couple had outdoor cooking areas set up and had "chow lines". So I don't want to hear about all this money being spent in "local" restaurants 'cause it ain't happening".

4. And all the racers in the campground had their own tools, parts, equipment, etc. and were sharing with each other which means "local" Mexican repair shops are completely by-passed...they're not even a factor...certainly no $'s spent there.

5. Next opportunity you can check out a video of the Baja 1000 finish line...the one I watched a couple years ago was in Cabo and the 1st thing I noticed was there were virtually NO Mexicans at the finish line to greet the racers! THEY DON"T CARE!

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 02:28 PM

As a local (as in Baja) club racer I agree that time is limited. Its getting harder and harder to set up the courses....

D... can we race in front of your house? plenty of dirt roads there!

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
As a local (as in Baja) club racer I agree that time is limited. Its getting harder and harder to set up the courses....

D... can we race in front of your house? plenty of dirt roads there!

The local off road races they run around there are at the other end of town---we would be MORE than happy to guide you to that far superior area in which to race.

Then you can come back and enjoy a beer in the peace and quiet.

[Edited on 11-24-2009 by DianaT]

DENNIS - 11-24-2009 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElFaro
4. And all the racers in the campground had their own tools, parts, equipment, etc. and were sharing with each other which means "local" Mexican repair shops are completely by-passed...they're not even a factor...certainly no $'s spent there.

I agree with most everything you say except point 4. What would the local mechanics know about someone's race car and, obviously you haven't been to too many parts stores here when you needed something. It's a flip of the coin whether or not you will leave the store with that part.

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 02:36 PM

El Faro. wait a minute. check some of your facts... how many racers were from Mexico in this years race?

Yes there is a dominance, especially in dollars, from the US. But there is alot of Mexican participation. And the locals do like to watch (as dangerous as it is)

Locals do participate. Mulege Municipality has an entire circuit for off-road racing. This weekend 500 kilometers. Many participants. With only one Gringo. my son/.. by the way... some on this board have also accused me of being an enviro.

check it out, that is if you want to check your facts

http://www.elpatorojo.com/epr/v3/forov2/showthread.php?p=157...

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Mulege Municipality has an entire circuit for off-road racing.

BTW---we would come and watch Kevin racing ---at the other end of town. :biggrin:

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 03:00 PM

I think the only place where theres limited economic benefit is Ensenada. I guess crews spend a few days there getting ready, bring their friends and families, who use restaurants, hotels, and bars. Down in Baja sur is a different story. Racers and their crews just want to get back home.

TMW - 11-24-2009 at 03:48 PM

Well I guess all the money I have spent over the years for hotel rooms, resturants plus tips, gas, taco stands, the bars I drank in, T shirts, toll roads, passes to some ranchers field to park plus parking in the dirt lots in town were for what, nothing. If the Mexicans didn't get any of it then who the hell was collecting my money?

If you don't think it has an impack on the local economy then go down to San Felipe and ask any hotel or resturant employee what happened when they moved the 250 to Ensenada a couple of years ago. To say there is not many Mexicans in it or people watching it is BS. For Mexican in the race get an entry list and go down the names. Come to the start line for the bikes and cars.

ElFaro you have a standing invite to come along with me for the next 500 or 1000 race, even the prerun. We'll do contingency, the rider/drivers meeting and be at the start of the bikes and Trophy Trucks and cars. Then head out to watch them at selected sites.

Yes there are more and more areas closing down for many reasons and at some point the long races may have to end, so be it. For now If you don't like Off-Road Racing fine take a vacation and get away from it.

Paulclark - 11-24-2009 at 04:12 PM

As a racer in BCS I see up to 150 cars entered in the 16 to 18 races held in BCS every year from Loreto to San Lucas. There are 2 local series, and a national series which has races here and on the mainland. Some of the races are track events, but the majority are point to point off road and most of the roads are seldom travelled by the public. Of those 150 plus entries there are 3 or 4 non-Mexican entries. If you go to any of the track events there will be 5,000+ spectators at a good event, more people than at any other event in BCS. And there is a political impact -- the governor or the president is there waving the start flag and making his presence known at most events.
There is an event in San Jose on December 6th, which is part of the National Series, so there will be cars from the mainland, and all Baja. Inscription (sign up) is usually held in the Wal Mart (San Lucas) parking lot the night before the race and it will be packed with people.
When you are driving one of these races it is amazing to see all the people turn out with the whole family and camp in the middle of nowhere under a tree and cheer the racers on, or be broken down and have people immediately there offering their help. Racing is part of the fabric of BCS and you can only appreciate the impact of it when you have experienced the event.
Because these races are marketed to the Choyeros few nomads are aware they are taking place and how much it is part of the local culture.

fishbuck - 11-24-2009 at 04:28 PM

What's a " Choyeros "?

David K - 11-24-2009 at 04:42 PM

It is the nature of man to push the limits of his abilities... Racing is a natural thing... be it on foot, in water, on a horse, or motor bike or vehicle.

Since government to some is a tool to take away freedom and natural activity as a form of control, it is not surprising to hear that some expect (or hope) that 'government' will stop the tradition of off road racing that began in Baja California 42 years ago.

Thanks for your words TW, I read them just now and I don't need to add my comments about the effects of free enterprise that is spurred by this or other types of events in Baja. You said exactly what I would have said.

I have been going to Baja for of road racing events as a spectator, pit support member and once as a co-driver since 1973... and the events have an overwhelming positive financial impact.

Sure, it is crowded and difficult to drive for a day or two... Sure there is pre-running for a few weeks before the race (pre-runners spend money too)... Sure the roads are chewed up after a race uses them... LIFE IS ROUGH. Jobs for locals, food on the table, clothes for their kids, should mean more than the inconvenience to some of you tourists or ex-pats.

Thanks Paulclark and Ralph for your observations about Mexican run off road racing in BCS.

mtgoat666 - 11-24-2009 at 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sure, it is crowded and difficult to drive for a day or two... Sure there is pre-running for a few weeks before the race (pre-runners spend money too)... Sure the roads are chewed up after a race uses them... LIFE IS ROUGH. Jobs for locals,

economic benefit is not justification for environmental damage. i suppose clear cutting the last of the old growth timber in WA, OR and CA would be allowable if it was economically beneficial to locals? perhaps the locals would like to build a hydroelectric dam in yosemite valley? i bet farmers would love to spray their fields with malathion and DDT, and should be allowed to do so because it is economically beneficial?

dk: i will await your cost benefit analysis -- standing by!

Bajahowodd - 11-24-2009 at 04:58 PM

Oh, DK. More political stuff injected. The reality is that there are folks who enjoy travelling fast, kicking up dust and making noise. My take on all this racing stuff is that eventually it will disappear. That will happen when there is more urbanization, when fuel costs astronomical prices, and when bowling alleys become ubiquitous.

:smug:

David K - 11-24-2009 at 05:02 PM

Newsflash: It's a desert... trees are nut clearcut, DDT isn't sprayed...

Try and stay on topic goat.

Seriously, debate what is involved with desert racing... a place most people avoid and is so hardy and duarble, that mans' markings in the dirt are easily removed by winds and flash floods.

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 05:04 PM

WHY IN THE HE.. do you have to make this your political statement. DK

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
It is the nature of man to push the limits of his abilities... Racing is a natural thing... be it on foot, in water, on a horse, or motor bike or vehicle.

Since government to some is a tool to take away freedom and natural activity as a form of control, it is not surprising to hear that some expect (or hope) that 'government' will stop the tradition of off road racing that began in Baja California 42 years ago.

Thanks for your words TW, I read them just now and I don't need to add my comments about the effects of free enterprise that is spurred by this or other types of events in Baja. You said exactly what I would have said.

I have been going to Baja for of road racing events as a spectator, pit support member and once as a co-driver since 1973... and the events have an overwhelming positive financial impact.

Sure, it is crowded and difficult to drive for a day or two... Sure there is pre-running for a few weeks before the race (pre-runners spend money too)... Sure the roads are chewed up after a race uses them... LIFE IS ROUGH. Jobs for locals, food on the table, clothes for their kids, should mean more than the inconvenience to some of you tourists or ex-pats.

Thanks Paulclark and Ralph for your observations about Mexican run off road racing in BCS.

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 05:08 PM

Off road desert racing is fun, dangerous,expensive, and tears up some of the desert. But we can disgust it without bringing in other issues like "free enterprise" . it is emotional enough for a lot of people.

would I sign up again.... geeze

[Edited on 11-25-2009 by rts551]

David K - 11-24-2009 at 05:24 PM

Umm, its my thread and 'politics' was brought up by others before me... so I responded. Like it or not, there are liberals who hate people with freedom and people having fun... they want to add a tax to it or just ban it.

I am for freedom. :biggrin:

Don Alley - 11-24-2009 at 05:30 PM

Seemed to me that last summer's Loreto race was a largely Mexican affair. Booths set up at the Malecon sold hats and shirts, many spectators. I don't know the economic benefits but they probably surpassed a whole season of cruise ship stops at Loreto. I know of one influential local man, Arturo Sussarey, who is perhaps better known for his interest in racing that his sportfishing fleet.

But they do tear up the roads. And unscheduled pre-racing on well used public roads that link villages like San Javier to Loreto appears dangerous to me; if the government were to intervene one could easily argue that they were acting for the safety of the people, and not because of some inherent inclination of government to take away freedom or stop the "natural activity" of racing expensive custom off-road machines. :lol:

And don't overlook free enterprise and the good old private sector, and private property rights. I've seen a lot of roads closed to ALL public passage in the Loreto area lately by private landowners.

I think Jesse's right, times are changing....

Paulclark - 11-24-2009 at 05:55 PM

Choyeros -- long time residents of BCS - usually Mexican

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Seriously, debate what is involved with desert racing... a place most people avoid and is so hardy and duarble, that mans' markings in the dirt are easily removed by winds and flash floods.

Not a statement for or against racing, but you really believe that the desert heals easily???

David K - 11-24-2009 at 06:12 PM

Yes, having enjoyed desert camping, traveling, racing since the 1960's... I can!

The whoops were so bad after a Score race in one canyon, even I was unhappy they used it... The next time I drove Parral, the whoops were gone. I was amazed how clean the surface was made by Nature! Her power is amazing!

[Edited on 11-25-2009 by David K]

Paulclark - 11-24-2009 at 06:15 PM

The desert takes a long time to heal -- look at the King's Road pictures, but the races are on existing roads.

Barry A. - 11-24-2009 at 06:15 PM

Healing the desert------

In wash bottoms the "healing" takes place when the flashflood passes thru--------

------almost everywhere else outside sand dunes, it takes 100's of years-----witness the tracks of Patton's tank's in the Mojave Desert laid down in the early '40's, still highly visible today.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 11-24-2009 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Umm, its my thread and 'politics' was brought up by others before me... so I responded. Like it or not, there are liberals who hate people with freedom and people having fun... they want to add a tax to it or just ban it.

I am for freedom.

your pronouncements are so outlandish that you do manage to provide amusement. thanks for the chuckle, dk -- but it is a bit scary that you believe yourself.

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Healing the desert------

In wash bottoms the "healing" takes place when the flashflood passes thru--------

------almost everywhere else outside sand dunes, it takes 100's of years-----witness the tracks of Patton's tank's in the Mojave Desert laid down in the early '40's, still highly visible today.

Barry

I remember a time in the USA when we believed the desert was a great big waste land that could not be destroyed----glad those times are past.

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 06:46 PM

This is not for or against racing. Its simple economics. Some people still think that filling a few hundred motel rooms in a few places in Baja, eating tacos and drinking beer is a huge boost on our economy. Guess what? its not. Racing has its days counted in Baja, i see it every year in newspaper articles about people complaining about such little benefit for so many problems.

Like i said, enjoy it while it last.

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 06:51 PM

Another thing to consider, bajanomad poll shows 50% of respondants are either racers and or love the sport. And look at the level of i wouldn't even call it opposition, just people who think its not worth it. Do this same poll for the average Mexican, and your talking 90% who don't care, vs 10% who do. Its pretty clear to me.

David K - 11-24-2009 at 06:52 PM

Barry is correct... it is finding things like Patton's tank tracks, the Mojave Trail, old mines and Jesuit ruins that make the desert all the more enjoyable to us Desert Rats today!! I love seeing 'stuff' like the El Camino Real' go across the Baja desert... So Diane, you are correct that SOME parts of the desert hold onto the man-mads scars, while others like dunes and arroyos are wiped clean frequently. It is the man made scars that bring us out to find... and get us closer to Nature to enjoy the great outdoors! HURRAY!

[Edited on 11-25-2009 by David K]

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Barry is correct... it is finding things like Patton's tank tracks, the Mojave Trail, old mines and Jesuit ruins that make the desert all the more enjoyable to us Desert Rats today!! I love seeing 'stuff' like the El Camino Real' go across the Baja desert... So Diane, you are correct that SOME parts of the desert hold onto the man-mads scars, while others like dunes and arroyos are wiped clean frequently. It is the man made scars that bring us out to find... and get us closer to Nature to enjoy the great outdoors! HURRAY!

[Edited on 11-25-2009 by David K]

So the man-made scaring of the desert is a good thing so more people go out and get closer to nature? :?:

Really?

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 07:10 PM

Quote:

Your thread. OK from now one pls preclude your post with whom may post and with what demeanor they may post with

David K - 11-24-2009 at 07:13 PM

Yep... really! Man is a natural part of this planet, afterall.

Do you take issue with jack rabbits or deer that make trails worn in the desert soil...?

It is what it is...

I do have problems with the locals who think the desert is their dump and leave piles of trash in the desert after their camping time. I suppose archeologists a couple hundred years from now will love that, however!

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 07:15 PM

David. their tracks are no different than your tracks. they just take a different time to be erased

David K - 11-24-2009 at 07:23 PM

Yes, you are correct!

My light tracks will be gone in the first wind... animal tracks are very deep and continue to be used, and never erased.

DianaT - 11-24-2009 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yep... really! Man is a natural part of this planet, afterall.

Do you take issue with jack rabbits or deer that make trails worn in the desert soil...?

It is what it is...

I do have problems with the locals who think the desert is their dump and leave piles of trash in the desert after their camping time. I suppose archeologists a couple hundred years from now will love that, however!

Bizarre---

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 07:29 PM

even more bizzzzzzarrrrrrre

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yes, you are correct!

My light tracks will be gone in the first wind... animal tracks are very deep and continue to be used, and never erased.

TMW - 11-24-2009 at 07:30 PM

OK here's something to ponder.

Stop all Off-Road racing in Baja, including Baja Sur. What impact will it have. The three major SCORE events are gone. All the CODE events are gone as all the others. With it all the efforts to raise money for such things as fighting cancer for the kids. Toys and clothing brought down by the racing community and other donations. Maybe stop all the tour companies as well since they too use the same roads and trails with off road MCs and cars. Will the people of Baja be better off?

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
OK here's something to ponder.

Stop all Off-Road racing in Baja, including Baja Sur. What impact will it have. The three major SCORE events are gone. All the CODE events are gone as all the others. With it all the efforts to raise money for such things as fighting cancer for the kids. Toys and clothing brought down by the racing community and other donations. Maybe stop all the tour companies as well since they too use the same roads and trails with off road MCs and cars. Will the people of Baja be better off?

Not now, but eventually, they will.

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 07:35 PM

TW

I don't believe this is a Gringo/tourist only issue. I believe the Mexican citizens contribute quiet a bit to the sport as well as their own well being. Probably more than the tourists who come down for the Score events.

Want to do a census during the 1000K race

Paulclark - 11-24-2009 at 07:44 PM

How will the people of Baja be better off without racing? Are there any other sporting events that you advocate ending? Horse racing, sport fishing etc.?

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulclark
How will the people of Baja be better off without racing? Are there any other sporting events that you advocate ending? Horse racing, sport fishing etc.?

I don't think anybody here is advocating ending anything, just want to make that clear. All i am poiting out, is that every year there seems to be more opossition to these events. Now, if you evaluate the economic impact of the race and put aside any sentimental arguments you might have. I say, at least for the overwhelming mayority of the people of Baja, its not something they care about.

Paulclark - 11-24-2009 at 08:02 PM

I don't see that. I see lots of people attending the events and participating. I cannot think of another event in BCS that has larger attendances -- Have you ever been to a track event in Cabo or La Paz?

Barry A. - 11-24-2009 at 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Bizarre---

You know, David's statement is really not that bizarre, at least to me. The trails left by deer are VERY obvious, and NEVER disappear as they are continually used. Personally I don't particularly like seeing them, but it never occurred to me to be offended by them------they "are what they are". Similarly, Patton's tracks are not offensive to me-----they fasinate me, as do the old mining projects all over the desert. David has a good point--------

And as for the "trash"------well THAT IS my main concern also, and always has been. So, once again, David and I are on the same wave-length. ( Surprise ) :lol:

Barry

mtgoat666 - 11-24-2009 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Bizarre---

Barry

so, let me get this straight,... some 50ish and 60ish year old men think that 60-year old trash is good, but recent trash is bad -- and that pesky wildlife is ruining the desert with all those dang footprints. did i get that correct?

fishbuck - 11-24-2009 at 08:32 PM

I had commented earlier that I only race closed course motocross. Usually on private property and I pay to race there.
In the US alot of Trophy Truck racing is now done on closed course race tracks too. It's possible that the BAJA 1000 may end up as a closed course race series in the future.
There are alot of benefits and advantages to closed course racing.
But it just wouldn't be the same.

Barry A. - 11-24-2009 at 08:36 PM

No Goat---------you got it wrong---------as usual you are spinning what we said, and making broad assumptions which are incorrect.

My how typical!!! You seem to not be able to stand that some people have different assessments than you, and don't see things thru your particular prism.

Barry

rts551 - 11-24-2009 at 09:12 PM

Pls tell me BA. what "we" really meant to say???????

LaTijereta - 11-24-2009 at 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElFaro
There needs to be a reality check here regarding the Baja 500 and Baja 1000.

Why should the Baja Mexicans tolerate Baja as the rich So. Calif. racers sandbox for this many years? Why do you think SCORE has gotten away with these races in the past?...because the Baja Mexicans were too few and too poor to have any say about who was running roughshod over their land. SCORE simply has done an "end-around" by dealing with the Mex. government directly and bypassing the locals. But I don't think that will last. Some Mexican business people I have talked to know that the races bring virtually no economic impact to Baja.

First the myths...

1. 250,000 spectators...pure BS...and who is providing these #'s...SCORE and Sal Fish of course! They have a MAJOR PR problem right now with justifying these races in Baja. All these stats are WAGS (Wild *ss Guesses). It all depends how you define "spectators". Yea if I'm driving down the hiway and I glance over to the race course I'm I counted as a "spectator"?

2. I have seen WAGS of the races bringing in $1-4 million..more gross BS from SCORE. More like max. $100,000. Most of these racers and their support crews are self-contained...very little $'s spent in Baja...a few hotel rooms, beer, tacos, and condoms.

3. I had never been down for a Baja 500 or 1000 race until about 3 years ago. At the time my brother and I happened on a Baja 500 race in Ensenada while returning from fishing in San Quintin. We stopped at Estero Beach for the night. There was no place to park our trailer so the mgr. let us park along side the "game room" for the night. The campground was full of toy haoulers and the hotel had a few rooms booked. What I saw was a real "eye opener". All the racers were staying in the campground at $45/nite...so figure roughly 80 sites times $45 equals $3600/nite per day...for what 3 days? Maybe $10,000 for lodging for what looked like an average of 4 people per site so per person $12/day...hardly any big spenging going on here. And...everyone was eating their own food prepared in their trailers! In fact a couple had outdoor cooking areas set up and had "chow lines". So I don't want to hear about all this money being spent in "local" restaurants 'cause it ain't happening".

4. And all the racers in the campground had their own tools, parts, equipment, etc. and were sharing with each other which means "local" Mexican repair shops are completely by-passed...they're not even a factor...certainly no $'s spent there.

5. Next opportunity you can check out a video of the Baja 1000 finish line...the one I watched a couple years ago was in Cabo and the 1st thing I noticed was there were virtually NO Mexicans at the finish line to greet the racers! THEY DON"T CARE!

I think if you look around there is plenty of Mexican participation at offroad races..

Baja Sur is ready to have SCORE back next year for a race finish in La Paz.. Tourist Board will end up paying SCORE tens of thousands of dollars to get SCORE back.. they must know how much this race means the economy.
Even Loreto has paid SCORE a fee (plus graded course roads) just to get the race course closer to town the last few times have raced South
:cool:

JESSE - 11-24-2009 at 11:46 PM

These races are perfect opportunities for Mexican tourist boards. They do nothing, trow some little money around, get their logos plastered everywhere, and looks great on their resume at the end of the year when they send the yearly report to congress. Here in La Paz, when i first got here, i tought it was going to be a huge event, but the other local businessmen told me it wasnt. I got ready for the crowds, and nothing. The racers and their crews just wanted to get back home. The only ones that made good money was the beer companies.

This is reality, i am not making things up.

Barry A. - 11-24-2009 at 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Pls tell me BA. what "we" really meant to say???????

Refer back to the latest posts by David and I. It is clear to me, but I doubt that I can make it any clearer for those that interpret it similar to Mt. Goat. :spingrin:

Barry

David K - 11-25-2009 at 04:23 PM

Just one more plus for off road racing in Baja... without it, Doug may have never created this web site we all enjoy so much!

Coming to Ensenada for the Baja races was how Doug got introduced to the peninsula! His father was the creator of TRICK Racing Fuel and Doug came down to man the booth at contingency in Ensenada.

So, a big thank you to off road racing and Doug's dad for exposing Baja to him! (It was my dad who exposed me to Baja, as well)

VIVA TRICK RACING FUEL!

[Edited on 11-25-2009 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 11-25-2009 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Pls tell me BA. what "we" really meant to say???????

Refer back to the latest posts by David and I. It is clear to me, but I doubt that I can make it any clearer for those that interpret it similar to Mt. Goat. :spingrin:

Barry

one boy's trash is another boy's treasure.

i thought y'all were pretty clear -- animal footprints are bad and vehicle erosion scars and mine waste are good :lol:

Barry A. - 11-25-2009 at 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Pls tell me BA. what "we" really meant to say???????

Refer back to the latest posts by David and I. It is clear to me, but I doubt that I can make it any clearer for those that interpret it similar to Mt. Goat. :spingrin:

Barry

one boy's trash is another boy's treasure.

i thought y'all were pretty clear -- animal footprints are bad and vehicle erosion scars and mine waste are good :lol:

------it's all in your perspective, Goat. Lets agree to disagree, and let it go at that.

HAPPY THANKS GIVING!!!!!

Barry

DENNIS - 11-25-2009 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
i thought y'all were pretty clear

Who knows what's clear.
Have a nice Thanksgiving, Goat. All you other argumentative folks as well.

woody with a view - 11-25-2009 at 05:41 PM

BAH!