BajaNomad - Major Shake-Up at Loreto Migracion

Major Shake-Up at Loreto Migracion

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Loretana - 12-16-2009 at 06:42 PM

Apparently our migracion office here in Loreto was hit by an investigation into corrupt practices......and Honorio and Oscar are being detained in La Paz by Federal authorities!

Uh-oh!! :wow:

CaboRon - 12-16-2009 at 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana
Apparently our migracion office here in Loreto was hit by an investigation into corrupt practices......and Honorio and Oscar are being detained in La Paz by Federal authorities!

Uh-oh!! :wow:

And this suprises you ?

Hook - 12-16-2009 at 07:42 PM

That they were detained............yes, that surprises me.

The Guaymas office could use a house-cleaning, too.

Loretana - 12-16-2009 at 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
And this suprises you ?

Who said anything about being surprised?

I'm just reporting on something that affects most of the Americans and Canadians living here in Loreto and the surrounding area.
We have all dealt with Honorio and/or Oscar at one time or another. :yes:

Lauriboats - 12-16-2009 at 07:46 PM

Sounds really bad to me.

FOR ME...

djh - 12-16-2009 at 07:52 PM

I can only speak for myself, but for me, the LTO INM Office has been fair, honest, and mostly efficient (occasionally a little slower than I'd hoped, but.... compared to my US Passport renewal . . . a breeze !).

Honario, especially, has been helpful to me with his good English and friendly attitude.

For the first time I am having my (mid-January) FM3 Renewal done by a very good and trusted local Loreto friend. I hope this does not create problems for her or for my renewal processing !

I hope it gets sorted out and the Loreto office doesn't get too bogged down.

djh

Transfer???

bajaguy - 12-16-2009 at 08:04 PM

Maybe the Immigration guy from Ensenada will be transferred down to sort out the Loreto office.... :lol:

arrowhead - 12-16-2009 at 08:43 PM

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

flyfishinPam - 12-17-2009 at 07:00 AM

Quote:

While I had good experiences with our local office I also had my share of bad experience$.

Remember about a year ago I had a group of four guys fly in to LTO and they were charged $1,000 US cash? It was our buddies at INM that intimidated them and took their money. They held their US Passport$ until it was paid. This particular incident pi$$es me off to no end, this is what they think of touri$m, the lifeline of this town! If I were a citizen then I would have made a denuncia then but my hand$ were tied then because I was still on an FM. Today I am going in to report this incident among other things.

They alway$ demanded ca$h for payment$ on renewal$ or any tramite$ and that is not legal as everyone knows the payment$ must be made at the bank. If you were unfortunate enough to have a renewal near the Christma$$$ holiday$ you could be sure it will co$t you more for obviou$ rea$on$. I always thanked the stars mine was in may. But now that I am done I will be happy to cooperate and give any evidence from the ten years I was in the system. Anyone notice the rigs these guy$ drive? They weren't paid enough by the government to buy tho$e. They got them through mordida and extortion.

Funcionarios (government workers) are not above the law. These guys abused their position and must be held responsible. bastard$

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 08:20 AM

FFP: do you think that they were 'abusing' their positions more than the typical INM office or is there a lowing of the threshold of what's acceptable?

ncampion - 12-17-2009 at 11:14 AM

Apparently they tried to extort money from the wrong person. A gringo married to a Mexican citizen whose brother was an attorney in Mexico City who blew the whistle on them and all hell broke loose. Glad someone had the guts to do that. They always manage to get "something extra" from us when we renew our FM3's.

.

Loretana - 12-17-2009 at 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion
Apparently they tried to extort money from the wrong person. A gringo married to a Mexican citizen whose brother was an attorney in Mexico City who blew the whistle on them and all hell broke loose. Glad someone had the guts to do that. They always manage to get "something extra" from us when we renew our FM3's.

.

Nick has the facts absolutely right, with his posting above.

Back in September, I had to renew my FM-3 a month early, because I needed to get back home to Oregon and couldn't be in Loreto the week before my FM-3 expired. Honorio charged me an extra $99.00 (US funds, of course) plus the renewal fee to stamp the FM-3 for another year.

He never gave me a receipt, and I knew there was no point in asking for one. From what I've been told, we won't have to deal with the "dear boy" ever again. I thought he was an arrogant little rooster, and good riddance, IMHO.

Marie-Rose - 12-17-2009 at 11:26 AM

Hopefully at some point you will get over your negative experience of time in Baja Ron.
The fact that someone blew the whistle and it is being investigated is a very good thing!!

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

And this suprises you ?

LaTijereta - 12-17-2009 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana

Nick has the facts absolutely right, with his posting above.

Back in September, I had to renew my FM-3 a month early, because I needed to get back home to Oregon and couldn't be in Loreto the week before my FM-3 expired. Honorio charged me an extra $99.00 (US funds, of course) plus the renewal fee to stamp the FM-3 for another year.

He never gave me a receipt, and I knew there was no point in asking for one. From what I've been told, we won't have to deal with the "dear boy" ever again. I thought he was an arrogant little rooster, and good riddance, IMHO.

FM-3 renewls can start upto 30 days before they expire.. So there should have been no added fees needed :rolleyes:

capt. mike - 12-17-2009 at 12:16 PM

i only know Sr. Jose Rios who is in charge of IMSS at the Guaymas airport.
one of the friendliest and most honest mex gov worker i have ever had the pleasure of working with or meeting. a very classy act who is always willing to help you if there is a problem - never asked for a dime extra.

update

Loretana - 12-17-2009 at 12:56 PM

I have been told by a reliable source that Honorio and Oscar were taken down by a "sting" operation that involved a local artist and the Immigration Authorities from the La Paz office, which has jurisdiction over Loreto.

If anyone, as Pam reported, had seen how "flamante" Honorio was acting, with new trucks, Harley motorcycles, and a lifestyle that was well beyond his means, it would have been quite obvious that something was up.

It was reported that he and Oscar overcharged a permit applicant and were caught "red-handed" with marked money.

Someone in La Paz is probably skinning a knuckle on their heads right now. :smug:

oldlady - 12-17-2009 at 01:27 PM

I dunno about that, but I was at the La Paz office for renewal this morning.
Place was packed, which I expected since they beigin holiday hiatus tomorrow, and short handed. Polite and helpful as they have always been.

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
I dunno about that, but I was at the La Paz office for renewal this morning.

I thought after you become elderly renewals weren't required anymore. NO?

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana
I have been told by a reliable source that Honorio and Oscar were taken down by a "sting" operation that involved a local artist and the Immigration Authorities from the La Paz office, which has jurisdiction over Loreto.

If anyone, as Pam reported, had seen how "flamante" Honorio was acting, with new trucks, Harley motorcycles, and a lifestyle that was well beyond his means, it would have been quite obvious that something was up.

It was reported that he and Oscar overcharged a permit applicant and were caught "red-handed" with marked money.

Someone in La Paz is probably skinning a knuckle on their heads right now. :smug:

Is it not public information what happens to these people? Are their ill-gotten gains removed and do they serve time? Is it possible to actually follow this case to it's end? Over and over we hear of the bad guys being arrested but then zippo after that. Por que?

Loretana - 12-17-2009 at 02:37 PM

Here is a link to the article posted on el sudcaliforniano.com.mx today. Everyone in town is talking about this.

My guess is that they will lose their goverment jobs, be consigned and pay fianzas and be released from custody.

The word "on the street" is that they are pointing the finger at four other funcionarios as well. Tsk, tsk. :no:

<<http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n1441102.htm>>

(The crime mentioned in the article is "cohecho" which means bribery.)

[Edited on 12-17-2009 by Loretana]

[Edited on 12-17-2009 by Loretana]

DENNIS - 12-17-2009 at 02:44 PM

They must have really screwed with the wrong person. Usually these guys do their thing with impunity.

rts551 - 12-17-2009 at 05:16 PM

Doesn't the article only talk about one person being arrested?

arrowhead - 12-17-2009 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
They must have really screwed with the wrong person. Usually these guys do their thing with impunity.

Maybe their big crime was not upstreaming a piece of the action to La Paz?

longlegsinlapaz - 12-17-2009 at 06:55 PM

I've been dealing with the La Paz Immigration office for 10 years & have yet to have experienced anything other than professionalism....well, except for ONE very rude new woman who might have a problem with gringos!

None of the folks there have ever even hinted at mordita. Nor have I ever spoken with anyone who's dealt with the La Paz office being charged bogus fees.

On the other hand, I've heard from friends about major "irregularities" involving $$ in the Loreto office for years! They apparently haven't seen the need to send people to the bank to pay for a long time! :no:

CaboRon - 12-18-2009 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marie-Rose
Hopefully at some point you will get over your negative experience of time in Baja Ron.
The fact that someone blew the whistle and it is being investigated is a very good thing!!

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

And this suprises you ?

I always has a good experience at the La Paz Immigration office, However Loretto has had a really bad reputation for many years.

Immigration

Marla Daily - 12-18-2009 at 09:58 AM

When renewing my FM2 this week, I was stopped by a very attractive savvy Mexican woman outside the immigration office as I left. She asked me to go to the Hotel Santa Fe where officials from Mexico City were gathering evidence and taking testimony against Oscar and Honorio.

This Mexican woman said she initiated this raid as a result of the attempted extortion or deportation of her BRITISH husband.

On Tuesday she said that Oscar was in jail (parents own Cafe Ole); that Hororio was not in jail YET, pending additional evidence and testimony. They also removed someone in Santa Rosalia.

There is now a woman heading Loreto immigration (Gina, Jenny, something like that). Her two assistants are Robin (tall and kind) and Daniel. She said she does not like having to live in Loreto as there are no malls and not even a movie theatre. She is from La Paz.

Among other things, it is alleged people were given the option of paying fees at the bank or at the immigration office. Money paid at the immigration office was never reported.

comitan - 12-18-2009 at 11:06 AM

CaboRon You sure have a short memory.

Sheeple

Dave - 12-18-2009 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
On the other hand, I've heard from friends about major "irregularities" involving $$ in the Loreto office for years! They apparently haven't seen the need to send people to the bank to pay for a long time! :no:

For years?

If so, why are we just now hearing about it?

oldlady - 12-18-2009 at 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
I dunno about that, but I was at the La Paz office for renewal this morning.

I thought after you become elderly renewals weren't required anymore. NO?

More things, more frequently.

Hook - 12-18-2009 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

For years?

If so, why are we just now hearing about it?

Isnt it obvious, Dave?

Screw with the local government entity that can initiate deportment proceedings and all the loss of personal property that can involve? Most will just pay up. The majority of those who deal with INM are foreigners with poor Spanish. They are taken advantage of.............just like in the country north of here.

I will say that the extorted amounts out of the Guaymas office are much less. My wife got off with some home-baked cookies. We had expectations this might work; the main culprit is a rather portly woman. :lol:

oldlady - 12-18-2009 at 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
the main culprit is a rather portly woman. :lol:

Lowest of the low..

longlegsinlapaz - 12-18-2009 at 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

For years?

If so, why are we just now hearing about it?

Because when a former Loreto resident that told me in casual conversation that he paid up front for his FM3 renewal & 2-3 months later still didn't have his FM3 back in hand....I said "You mean you made the payment at the bank & took the paid receipt back to Immigration office....right?" He said, "No, the guy in Immigration told me the cost I paid him & he took it." I advised him of how the process is supposed to happen & my friend made a trip to La Paz to talk with the Immigration officials here, they took his statement & said they were initiating an investigation.

So Dave, the official complaint was registered with the appropriate authorities....you'll have to ask them why you were left out of the loop! :smug:

rockman - 12-19-2009 at 04:44 PM

The following was received from Lynn Hamman's Loreto Website:
"Immigration Issues:
Many of you are aware of the current problems with Immigration issues and the arrest of Oscar Davis. A commission from Mexico city came to investigate but they didn't think the problem was this big. Therefore, they are asking all the people that have had issues with migration because of mistreats or bribes feel free to come and present their statement; there is nothing to be afraid of. Any foreigner can come to the Ministrerio Publico Agency in Nopolo and make their statement; it will be confidential and they can address the issues.
Check out the links below:
http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/11122009/4/n-latam-confirma-...

http://www.elsiglodetorreon.com.mx/noticia/485256.detienen-a...

http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/detienen-a-f...

If you are afraid to go to the police (ministerio publico in Nopolo) please send your complaint through the website www.inm.gob.mx. Every case will be treated confidentially."

Here is our chance, finally, to put these guys where they belong. If you are in Loreto now, tell them your stories. If not, use the website to report misuse of office that you have witnessed.
We must set an example for all those who follow. If we do nothing, we will have only ourselves to blame for what follows.
A young lady had the guts to initiate this; we should all support her.

[Edited on 12-20-2009 by rockman]

Santiago - 12-19-2009 at 05:26 PM

he federal agent Oscar Castaneda Davis seconded for the office in town of Loreto Baja California Sur, was made available to the Ministry by the Federal Public Found in flagrante delicto in an irregular fact while performing his duties as a public servant.

This from the last link above after running it through Google Translate: what in the world does 'in flagrante delicto' mean???? Can't possibly be what I first thought. Can't be.

DENNIS - 12-19-2009 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
what in the world does 'in flagrante delicto' mean???? Can't possibly be what I first thought. Can't be.

It means caught in the act. Usually applied to sexual indiscretions.

When?

Dave - 12-19-2009 at 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
So Dave, the official complaint was registered with the appropriate authorities....you'll have to ask them why you were left out of the loop! :smug:

Years ago? :rolleyes:

I meant:

If this has been going on for years then why hasn't it been reported here...year after year?

Loretana - 12-19-2009 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
he federal agent Oscar Castaneda Davis seconded for the office in town of Loreto Baja California Sur, was made available to the Ministry by the Federal Public Found in flagrante delicto in an irregular fact while performing his duties as a public servant.

This from the last link above after running it through Google Translate: what in the world does 'in flagrante delicto' mean???? Can't possibly be what I first thought. Can't be.

Santiago.....

the article said "in flagrante delito" the key word, being "delito"which means crime. So, what they are saying, is, he was caught in the act of committing a crime.

There is something to be said for learning the lingua franca of the country you are living in........... :dudette:

Forget these so called translation programs! Get your dictionary out and learn some spanish.

[Edited on 12-20-2009 by Loretana]

Santiago - 12-19-2009 at 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana
Santiago.....
There is something to be said for learning the lingua franca of the country you are living in........... :dudette:

[Edited on 12-20-2009 by Loretana]

I live in Nor Cal.
Although your point is well taken and agreed with.

Loretana - 12-19-2009 at 08:19 PM

Come down here and take the "Baja Immersion Course"......

the best way to learn the language is to live here, hang with the locals and just dive in!

Pretty soon, you'll be laughing at their jokes, chatting up your neighbors and dreaming in espanol. I highly recommend it. :saint:

rockman - 12-20-2009 at 12:09 AM

The safe website for reporting to the Federales your experiences with Immigracion officials is:
www.inm.gob.mx

rhintransit - 12-20-2009 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockman
The safe website for reporting to the Federales your experiences with Immigracion officials is:
www.inm.gob.mx

the direct link to the denuncia page is http://www.inm.gob.mx/index.php?page/Denuncias

the page is in Spanish only as far as I can find but it is basic and fairly easy to understand

in person, PGR building, Nopolo it will be helpful to speak some spanish or take someone who can interpret

Hook - 12-20-2009 at 07:03 PM

Here is the unbroken link.
Denuncias

Loreto Immigration Office

Marla Daily - 12-23-2009 at 12:53 PM

I just returned from the Loreto Immigration office on MF2 business.

Honorio, in uniform, is still working at Immigration and is still stationed at the airport for arriving planes.

arrowhead - 12-23-2009 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
I just returned from the Loreto Immigration office on MF2 business.

Honorio, in uniform, is still working at Immigration and is still stationed at the airport for arriving planes.

What do you think the odds are then he is no longer asking for cash payments or "extra" charges?

:lol:

toneart - 12-23-2009 at 05:31 PM

Quote:

Maybe they should give him an orange uniform and a new shiny ankle bracelet.

rockman - 12-24-2009 at 11:26 AM

The following appeared today in Lynn Hamman's Loreto website:

"As Wardens for Loreto, the American Consulate office has asked us to pass on the following information.

The consulate has looked into the investigations of the immigration problems in Loreto and is satisfied that "the federal government is serious about the issue of corruption within the immigration offices and would like to be able to point to this case as one of their success stories."

We have spoken directly to the Deputy Chief of the Consulate who told us that this investigation is being run by the highest authorities in the country. If you have any questions, please contact us and we will pass these questions on to the Consulate.

Submitted by: Ray & Diane Lieberenz (rayl@snowcrest.net or 135-2170)"

Residents of- and visitors to Loreto who have experienced problems with Imigracion should report to the authorities.

If demonstrators in Iran can stand up to corruption, certainly Mexicans, Americans and Canadians should do the same.

[Edited on 12-24-2009 by rockman]

vandenberg - 12-24-2009 at 11:35 AM

Souns like your typical government drivel. :no:

DENNIS - 12-24-2009 at 11:39 AM

It's all BS damage control. Image is everything.

Hook - 12-24-2009 at 12:03 PM

Who put vinegar in your Bailey's and coffee this morning, you two???

Let's wait and see if the investigation has resulted in a change for the better in that office. Even if the principals are still there, the principles may have changed. :smug:

I dont know why we didnt think of bringing these transgressions up to our consulates. It would seem to be their business if US/Canadian citizens were having trouble complying with residency requirements.

[Edited on 12-24-2009 by Hook]

rockman - 12-24-2009 at 01:08 PM

I can only wonder what "Vandenberg" and "Dennis" have done, constructively, to improve the situation.

DENNIS - 12-24-2009 at 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockman
I can only wonder what "Vandenberg" and "Dennis" have done, constructively, to improve the situation.

Excuse me. I hadn't heard that Mexico had risen above cynicism. When did that happen? Was it an accumulation of virtuous events that gained her that new respect or was it one big event that I seem to have missed?

This From The La Paz Gringos NewsGroup This Morning

BCSTech - 12-30-2009 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

The Loreto Migracion office is under a Mx. Federal investigation, and they ARE serious. Both the US and the Canadian embassies are watching this develop, as well. There have been arrests and those people have been jailed, at least one is out on a very substantial bail. The staff at the Loreto Migracion office has been reported to use illegal and inappropriate practices during (but not limited to) completing paperwork for visitor's FM3s, Visas, change of address, etc. Some of your friends have been involved directly in the uncovering of this (alleged) problem. Some of them have truly put their lives on the line, here. The investigation IS VERY important, and is going forward. The BIG BOYS in Mexico City are involved. They are actually trying to find and correct instances of corruption, and this is OUR chance to help.

Now - the new news is that a delegation of investigators is willing to come to both Loreto and to La Paz in order to take statements, called "denuncias", about the alleged problems with Migracion. They plan to fly to the Baja this coming week. However, the person in charge and the one who is most intent on really doing something about this corruption needs to prove to her boss that there are ENOUGH PEOPLE who have been effected by these practices in Loreto.

This is where I am asking for your help: we need names of people who would be willing to make a statement, either in person OR online, regarding any possible questionable problems you may have had at the Loreto Migracion office. This would include paying money directly to the person in the office/not being told to pay at the bank, not receiving a receipt or receiving an erroneous one, being charged any fines or extra monies of any kind, any inappropriate behavior on the part of the staff, etc. Numbers of people is what is important here. We need to let the Mexican officials know that we do not want to condone corruption in their offices (Hey, it IS a start), and that we will take action when offered the chance to help them help us.

Please, send me your names - first and last names - which can be put on a list. If you choose later not to participate either in person or online, that is your choice. What we need now are names to show the authorities that there are many many people who have been recipients of questionable practices here. I do believe that it is safe to participate, that there will be NO repercussions against any of us for doing so. I ask that you send me your names so I may get them to the proper persons who will get a list to Mexico City immediately. This needs to be done now, today, so the plans to come to the Baja next week can be made. I am sorry about the lack of notice, but here it is. Please send your names to sunloverConnie [-at-] hotmail.com

Thank you to any of you who are willing to be included - Robin and Martin Hardy, The Cat's Meow

Bajajorge - 12-30-2009 at 09:45 AM

Old news but, Big shake up at San Felipe office a few years back. Besides some employees being on the take, one of the them supposedly headed to points unknown with $25,000 worth of FM3 funds. This of course was just gringo gossip.

san felipe problems?

akshadow - 12-30-2009 at 11:09 AM

There was a shake up? Never heard of the idea of $25000 diappearing, but did hear of people who were using one of the employees to fill out the applications and deposit money who had trouble when she (?) got out of the job. I thought much of the change in personnel had more to do with change in government than any problem with the office personnel doing FM work.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajorge
Old news but, Big shake up at San Felipe office a few years back. Besides some employees being on the take, one of the them supposedly headed to points unknown with $25,000 worth of FM3 funds. This of course was just gringo gossip.

flyfishinPam - 1-5-2010 at 10:19 AM

a bump!

later (hopefully later today) I will set up a separate thread regarding this issue. in a nutshell, the PGR in Nopolo hasn't been all to helpful in receiving complaints and the online complaint form is cumbersome. HOWEVER a team of internal investigators will be returning to Loreto to receive complaints after the holiday is over. Since I do not have the exact date or dates, times or location I will wait to post the notification until I have these details.

But what I would particularly like to stress is that anyone who has been through the Loreto immigration system and who has a complaint to make should make it. Right now there is a person who is guilty a sin that is still working their job. Until enough complaintants come forward and make these reports this person will skate away unscathed. This should not happen because what they did severely hurt our town and our country. They took away money that belonged to the government, they gave permission to those who did not have the legal right to have it in exchange for pay, they intimidated, they damaged the reputation of this town, they hurt tourism, they demanded peoples hard earned money when it was convienent for them among other things...and I encourage those of you who may be reading this to stay tuned and do your part to insure this never happens again. Please stay tuned as I will start a separate thread as soon as I have the pertinent information but in the meantime, residents of Loreto who are in this position please strongly consider supporting the efforts of these investigators and your friends and neighbors who have and plan to make complaints.

Feliz ano

flyfishinPam - 1-5-2010 at 03:10 PM

the post that was made by BCStech on the 30th of December (above) lists the e-mail of the person that I am waiting on for the date/time/place when the people from DF will be here to receive complaints. I am told the author of the letter has limited internet connectivity and that I may not hear back from them today. the person belonging to that e-mail is a longtime respected Loreto resident so if any are hesitating to cooperate because they aren't sure who will be receiving the information, just know that they're on our side. good people.

norte - 1-5-2010 at 03:47 PM

"all that helpful"???? .Will we have protection at a later date from redrisal?

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
a bump!

later (hopefully later today) I will set up a separate thread regarding this issue. in a nutshell, the PGR in Nopolo hasn't been all to helpful in receiving complaints and the online complaint form is cumbersome. HOWEVER a team of internal investigators will be returning to Loreto to receive complaints after the holiday is over. Since I do not have the exact date or dates, times or location I will wait to post the notification until I have these details.

But what I would particularly like to stress is that anyone who has been through the Loreto immigration system and who has a complaint to make should make it. Right now there is a person who is guilty a sin that is still working their job. Until enough complaintants come forward and make these reports this person will skate away unscathed. This should not happen because what they did severely hurt our town and our country. They took away money that belonged to the government, they gave permission to those who did not have the legal right to have it in exchange for pay, they intimidated, they damaged the reputation of this town, they hurt tourism, they demanded peoples hard earned money when it was convienent for them among other things...and I encourage those of you who may be reading this to stay tuned and do your part to insure this never happens again. Please stay tuned as I will start a separate thread as soon as I have the pertinent information but in the meantime, residents of Loreto who are in this position please strongly consider supporting the efforts of these investigators and your friends and neighbors who have and plan to make complaints.

Feliz ano

rockman - 1-5-2010 at 04:20 PM

If the Yankee patriots in 1776 had "norte"'s attitude, we would still be singing "God save the Queen". Surely we have that much conviction and courage.

bajabeachbabe - 1-5-2010 at 05:13 PM

Even those people who don't have complaints may have something to report. We have renewed our FM3's three times and now knowing what may have been going on, I think only the first time we renewed might have been legal. With our first renewal, however, we were really unhappy with the service we recevied.

We were sent all over town to locate forms that turned out to be non-existent, only to find that they had them readily available in the office. We paid our fees at the bank. We were told that we had to come back in 45 days to pick up our renewed FM3's. This required us to make a special trip back to Loreto to pick them up. We were really unhappy with the treatment and service we received.

The last two years we were able to get our renewals done in a week. We paid in the office and were surprised with how efficient the process had become. We were happy campers!

The issues that everyone needs to ask themselves is:

Were you required to pay your fees at the bank?
Did you receive a receipt for your payment? (Our form was merely stamped "Paid".)
Were you charged the correct amount? I am pretty sure that this year we were charged the fee for a FM3 with work permit, not the retiree amount.

Nothing will ever change if we Loreto residents let corruption become the norm. This is a rare opportunity for us to have impact without being Mexican citizens. Please consider reporting your experiences.

DENNIS - 1-5-2010 at 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
Nothing will ever change if we Loreto residents let corruption become the norm. This is a rare opportunity for us to have impact without being Mexican citizens. Please consider reporting your experiences.

There's safety in numbers. I don't know what is worse.....corrupt officials or expats who don't have the nerve to stand up for themselves and rely on others to do their fighting for them.

Bajahowodd - 1-5-2010 at 05:30 PM

Just seems to me that when people want to benefit from the lower cost structure of a third world country, they had better understand all the ramifications. There is a deep-rooted culture of corruption in Mexican society. Unfortunately, the hubris of Norte Americanos viz their own government and society leaves them clueless to the fact that much of the same crap occurs NOB. People are being played everyday. But since we've all had a group hypnosis that has convinced us that we are better than anyone else, we leave ourselves open to harm. Corruption is everywhere. It is part of human nature. Sure, if you are living inside the US and feel that someone is taking advantage of you, you may feel a bit more comfortable in speaking out. But, the ground rules are much the same.

californio - 1-5-2010 at 06:00 PM

i'm rather new to loreto, but I am happy to see that there are so many other folks willing to go out of their way to help rid loreto of one of its main liabilities - the current immigration staff. Those who don't make the effort to report wrong doings are not on my list of people who I want to meet and know.
I have had visitors who will not return to loreto because of hassles from Honaria and others. This is a partial reason we are seeing restaurants and other businesses close here.
If an overwhelming majority, including Mexicans who have had problems, report to the Feds (who will be back in loreto, in person, next week), then we will have cleaned house and have helped loreto business survive.
DO YOUR PART !

Why?

Dave - 1-5-2010 at 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Right now there is a person who is guilty a sin that is still working their job. Until enough complaintants come forward and make these reports this person will skate away unscathed.

Wouldn't a single proven complaint be sufficient?

Are bank robbers only guilty if they rob 10 banks?

Bajahowodd - 1-5-2010 at 06:09 PM

Again. You are in a foreign country. Like it or not, you either play by their rules, leave, or get in trouble. Why does everyone always need to apply the rules and culture of the US, such as that is?

californio - 1-5-2010 at 06:33 PM

bank robbers who rob 10 banks get longer sentences than those that rob 1 bank.
But if you really search, you may find many other excuses for not supporting the loreto community.

Maybe so...

Dave - 1-5-2010 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by californio
bank robbers who rob 10 banks get longer sentences than those that rob 1 bank.

But they don't remain employed in the bank robbing business, regardless.

longlegsinlapaz - 1-5-2010 at 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Again. You are in a foreign country. Like it or not, you either play by their rules, leave, or get in trouble. Why does everyone always need to apply the rules and culture of the US, such as that is?

Not sure how you came up with the USA rules & culture comment. These are Mexican Federal laws being broken by Mexican nationals. They are defrauding the Mexican government out of revenue as well as charging inappropriate/elevated/bogus fees for various services to non-Mexicans.

As Morgaine7 posted, fees are fixed & publicly posted at the government website.

It is not a positive outcome predictor for me that at least one of these people is currently back at work in the Loreto office. :no:

flyfishinPam - 1-6-2010 at 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

Quote:

the reason that person is still working their post although accused is because if they do not report to work they will have abandoned their job and all the benefits that go with it such as medical and retirement, if they are found to be innocent. so this is understandable. it is our responsibility to make the reports that INM's internal investigative team is coming here to put together.

it would be the easy road for me to just ignore this entire mess because i'm out of their system now but i am not one to follow the easy road i follow my conscience. and i agree with californiano that those who are too chickensh!t to make a report even though they were extorted are not people i care to associate with either.

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-6-2010 at 07:24 AM

Edit: Image

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Marla Daily - 1-6-2010 at 07:38 AM

Many people in Loreto paid the immigration "expedite fee" thru an agent hired to do their FM3 renewals, and therefore cannot give "hearsay" evidence against the guilty immigration employees extorting for extra fees. In these cases, only the hired agents/facilitators can testify. But will they go out of their way to do so? Doubt it. They have nothing to gain, as they were only the messenger carrying the funds from their client to immigration. They did what they had to in order to stay in business. If they didn't participate, they couldn't have gotten their work done—securing FM3's for clients. The officials coming to Loreto need only to go to the various agents in Loreto and interview them.

longlegsinlapaz - 1-6-2010 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8

Edit: Image

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

I'm confused....is your "major overreaction" post in response to this entire thread or an individual response? :?:

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-6-2010 at 09:01 AM

You know the answer!

longlegsinlapaz - 1-6-2010 at 09:25 AM

No, I don't know the answer. I don't ask questions that I know the answer to.

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-6-2010 at 09:30 AM

longlegsinlapaz - 1-6-2010 at 09:48 AM

My question was a sincere question. What may be obvious to one is clear as mud to another. I guess I should infer that your post was in response to my post....if this guess is accurate, may I ask what specifically you felt was "major overreaction" in my post?

longlegsinlapaz - 1-6-2010 at 09:53 AM

Thank you for your explanation Flyfishingpam....I didn't know that & interpreted original post to have meant both persons were in custody, so it threw me for a loop that one could be back at work. Your answer makes sense, despite the "Guilty, until proven innocent" law of the land.

Hopefully justice will win out in the end.

Edit: typo

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by longlegsinlapaz]

DianaT - 1-6-2010 at 09:56 AM

I just hope the idea that the Feds are watching spreads to some other immigration offices around who love to collect extra money. It is always a difficult situation and one does not want to make the immigration officials angry---

Looking to see how this all shakes out in Loreto and look forward to hearing about it.

toneart - 1-6-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
I just hope the idea that the Feds are watching spreads to some other immigration offices around who love to collect extra money. It is always a difficult situation and one does not want to make the immigration officials angry---

Looking to see how this all shakes out in Loreto and look forward to hearing about it.

We share the same jurisdiction. I am reading between the lines and my silence is deafening. :rolleyes:

ELINVESTIG8R - 1-7-2010 at 07:14 AM

californio - 1-7-2010 at 02:12 PM

It is strange to me how such a serious subject becomes a venue for mindless humor.

As James Joyce quotes Shakespeare,
" 'Tis the loud laugh that speaks the vacant mind."

rts551 - 1-7-2010 at 03:08 PM

Its an illness you find on this board.

since this is being bumped anyway...

flyfishinPam - 1-7-2010 at 03:30 PM

...just checking back to say that I still don't know the dates that the investigators will be here yet. Once I know I will start a separate thread. thanks for your patience.

flyfishinPam - 1-7-2010 at 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
....Your answer makes sense, despite the "Guilty, until proven innocent" law of the land.

Hopefully justice will win out in the end.

Edit: typo

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by longlegsinlapaz]

"guilty until proven innocent" seems to apply only to us peons, oops I mean general public tax paying citizens and not government workers or politicos. at least that's my observation i may be wrong though. we DO have recourse but understanding how to apply it is another story. here, we have a RARE opportunity as foreign legal residents and affected citizens to use the tools that are legally in place with the full help and support of the government. these kinds of legal tools are accessable under federal transparency laws that even for spanish speaking Mexicans are very cumbersome (just take a look at that INM site and try to navigate it, better yet look at SEMARNAT's site or SRE's yeesh!). they will be making it easy for us by already having much of the information on the accused documented AND providing interpreters and assistants to the complaintants when needed. this IS NOVEL.

and I hope justice is served as well. thanks for your support!

edited to fix code

[Edited on 1-7-2010 by flyfishinPam]

flyfishinPam - 1-7-2010 at 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
Many people in Loreto paid the immigration "expedite fee" thru an agent hired to do their FM3 renewals, and therefore cannot give "hearsay" evidence against the guilty immigration employees extorting for extra fees. In these cases, only the hired agents/facilitators can testify. But will they go out of their way to do so? Doubt it. They have nothing to gain, as they were only the messenger carrying the funds from their client to immigration. They did what they had to in order to stay in business. If they didn't participate, they couldn't have gotten their work done—securing FM3's for clients. The officials coming to Loreto need only to go to the various agents in Loreto and interview them.

you know, if I were an agent like this (which I wouldn't wanna be) what I would do is pay the FM fee at the bank then I would add on a service charge depending on the amount of legwork that the case would require. I would disclose my charges to my client in this way: government fees/my fees. I would NOT play the game whether I were either a foreign person doing the preparation or if I were a Mexican person doing it. Agents that played the game and did Not pay at the bank, and that are too lazy to be bothered to help fix a problem due to lack of it being "worth it" to them are WEAK!!

Playing the Game is the root of much of Mexico's problems. Folks I know are very eager to break this cycle and they do not condone this type of behaviour from functionarios. it angers them and it angers me. ethics and honesty would be a nice change around here, I sure hope it returns to this town! the easy going and friendly honesty started to disappear from Loreto around 8 or 9 years ago, and our political and beaurocratic atmosphere has deteriorated since. corruption here has grown in proportion to increasing foreign presence. and those who are willing participants in this "game" have enabled it and have made things more difficult for all. we are hoping to break this cycle.

sorry elinvesti8 for overeacting, oh the horrors

and Dave once these guys are removed from their post and transfered like they always seem to be, I hope they are in charge of your jurisdiccion. I would LOVE to see how YOU would handle them. my guess is that you'd just play the game. so goes another productive citizen for Mexico! for me Mexico is my future not a just a cheaper alternative stopping point to my end right before I become too scared about lack of medical and return to the home country to die. my children are here and so is my family and I care deeply for this country and wish to be part of its move forward into a productive future. over.

For anyone interested, below is a link to a speech made by Denise Dresser regarding Mexico's problems and what we should focus on to improve our future. It is in Spanish and she is a brilliant bright star in Mexico, a ray of hope.

El Discurso de Denise Dresser parte 1/3 (en Espanol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PpKBFA_xLU&feature=relat...

sorry for my vent its been a weird day for me

at any rate we move forward, peace to all

longlegsinlapaz - 1-7-2010 at 07:18 PM

Quote:

I'd forgotten about the survey form I was requested to complete in La Paz in early December. They have had "grade us on our facilities & service" questionnaires from time to time, but this time the form seemed longer, more intensive & asked if any personnel had requested money or extra fees....many more "ethics questions" than I remember from previous surveys.

So hopefully all the Immigration offices will be better scrutinized from here on out, versus a flash-in-the-pan one-time reaction.

Marla Daily - 1-7-2010 at 10:17 PM

In the cases in which I have first hand knowledge of people who used facilitating agents in Loreto to renew their FM3s, the scenario followed Pam's outline with one hitch—#3 below:

1. Facilitating agent states to the client, in advance, THEIR business fee/service charge for handling/facilitating the immigration transaction (FM3) on behalf of the client (usually $75);

2. Agent pays the client's immigration form fee (FM3) at the bank (as stated in the web)
[so far so good]

HOWEVER:

3. The facilitating agents, in turn, were forced by immigration to pay an optional "overnight" or "expedite" fee, in order to get their client's FM3s done in a timely manner. No "expedite fee" [= go to the top of the pile] meant an FM3 could stay at the bottom of the stack for months. The agents had no choice but to pay the fee and add it to the clients bill. The agents were not taking kickbacks. Immigration was simply holding agents businesses hostage.

So...

Dave - 1-8-2010 at 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
In the cases in which I have first hand knowledge of people who used facilitating agents in Loreto to renew their FM3s, the scenario followed Pam's outline with one hitch—#3 below:

1. Facilitating agent states to the client, in advance, THEIR business fee/service charge for handling/facilitating the immigration transaction (FM3) on behalf of the client (usually $75);

2. Agent pays the client's immigration form fee (FM3) at the bank (as stated in the web)
[so far so good]

HOWEVER:

3. The facilitating agents, in turn, were forced by immigration to pay an optional "overnight" or "expedite" fee, in order to get their client's FM3s done in a timely manner. No "expedite fee" [= go to the top of the pile] meant an FM3 could stay at the bottom of the stack for months. The agents had no choice but to pay the fee and add it to the clients bill. The agents were not taking kickbacks. Immigration was simply holding agents businesses hostage.

What's the rush?

I've always used a facilitator. He prepares my documentation, takes my identification (which is a requirement for receipt issuance), to the bank. He then takes the documentation and receipts to migra for processing. Migra in turn, issues a receipt as proof the documentation was received and is in processing. I additionally sign a 'power of attorney' which allows my facilitator to sign for and pick up my FM when completed.

Once I have the receipt from migra I don't care how long the process takes...Could take 6 weeks, or six months. It's not important whether my renewal documentation is on the top, or bottom of the pile. I have, in hand, official documentation that proves I am in compliance.

flyfishinPam - 1-9-2010 at 07:19 AM

what Dave posted is absolutely correct and is the experience I have had for the last few years doing the process myself with my Mexican husband present (ensuring we aren't extorted). it does take time but that letter that says its being processed is as good as the book itself. what was the hurry?

I sure wouldn't want to be in the facilitators shoes it would be embarrasing and a threat to their integrity in the minds of their clients. how does one charge a fee, start a process, and then either have to hit up clients for additional money that officials request, or have to dig for random amounts from their own profits? how does one explain this? sticky situation. Logic says that if they help to solve this problem their jobs will be MUCH easier in the future. so actually they have a lot to gain by cooperating.

I still don't have the dates yet.

monoloco - 1-9-2010 at 07:25 AM

I don't know why anybody would need a facilitator, the renewal process is about as simple as can be.

shari - 1-9-2010 at 07:34 AM

when I did my FM3's myself...well...there was always some kind of screw up that ended up costing me dearly...there are many types of FM3's and hoops you have to jump through if you have any changes of address, job, etc....letters to write that I had no idea about and got fined for later.

When I had an agent start doing them, there were never any glitches and I didnt have to pay for an expensive trip to submit the renewal and pick the book up. The agent actually saved me money and headaches! I found the agents at some of the smaller offices made alot of mistakes which ended up costing me big time so I switched to the head office in La Paz and lived happily ever after....sure am glad I dont have to deal with all that anymore.

DENNIS - 1-9-2010 at 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I don't know why anybody would need a facilitator, the renewal process is about as simple as can be.

I'm willing to bet you didn't do it in Ensenada.

monoloco - 1-9-2010 at 08:41 AM

We do ours in La Paz and have never had a problem, just drop off the stuff and pick-up the new one a week later.

What's the rush? None as long as you aren't going anywhere.

Marla Daily - 1-9-2010 at 07:35 PM

Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.

If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then were required to obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost: $100!

So they got their extra fee either way!

The agents I know left it up to their clients if they wanted to pay the "expedite fee" or not.

toneart - 1-9-2010 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.

If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then were required to obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost: $100!

So they got their extra fee either way!

The agents I know left it up to their clients if they wanted to pay the "expedite fee" or not.

They should give you the letter if they cannot expedite your FM3, but that is one area where you are vulnerable to an extra fee. They do request that you come in 3 or 4 weeks before your FM3 expires. If you comply with this request, there usually isn't a problem or extra fee. In fact, they most often have it ready in one week for you to come in and pick up.

It is your responsibility to not go past the deadline for renewal. When you come to the INS office, you must already know what is needed in the way of supporting documents. If you don't have your sh*t together, they see it as their right to assess fines or fees.

Yes, the various jurisdictions operate differently from one another. The "standard" operation and fees fluctuate according to the officer's assessment of the applicant's vulnerability or how he likes, or doesn't like the applicant's attitude. Too bad, but that is the way it is when the whole culture operates on and expects corruption.

On the other hand, I have waited my turn in line and almost always I hear gringos making jokes, in English, that are insulting to the officers. The officers are subjected to this daily, and their comprehension of English is good enough for them to understand the tone and the gist of the insults.

A "clean up" drive may work, but it can get stalled out ad infinitum with the pretense of a clean up supported by lip service only. And we do feel vulnerable. Look what is at stake, and who holds the power.

Through the years, I have humored them in ways that I know are not offensive. I use my fair command of Spanish. Whereas I have indeed been taken advantage of in the past, they now know me and ( I assume) they like me. It has run smoothly, with no "extra' charges in the last couple of years. They know me by my first name when I come into the office and when they see me on the street.

From what I understand from those who use a service, their fees are set and agreed upon. The go-betweens are known and have relationships with the INS agents.They know the score and are not gamed. Whatever their agreement is between them (kickback?), they get it done with no problems for their clients. Sure, you can expect a hefty fee for this service. To many, it is worth it.

So...

Dave - 1-11-2010 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.

If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then were required to obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost: $100!

You're saying that:

1. You must have the actual FM3 'in hand' in order to leave Mexico by air?

2. Immigration wont honor its own receipt as proof that it holds your FM and renewal is in process? That immigration or any other Mexican agency, can prohibit a U.S. citizen the constitutional right to leave Mexico without paying an additional 'fee'?

Has anyone actually put them to a legal test or do you just take this information on faith?

LarryK - 1-11-2010 at 11:20 AM

Help me out. Does your FM3 have to be done in the area you live in? I have heard that if you get your FM3 say in San Diego, Then go to La Paz to check in, they would not honor the transation. Is this true

oldlady - 1-11-2010 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryK
Help me out. Does your FM3 have to be done in the area you live in? I have heard that if you get your FM3 say in San Diego, Then go to La Paz to check in, they would not honor the transation. Is this true

Not in our case. That's precisely what we did four years ago.

You Think?

Dave - 1-11-2010 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by morgaine7
Could be that the Loreto scammers were making people think they needed all that, so that they wouldn't opt for the "slow lane" and skip the mordida.

I've used the migra receipt to travel freely within Mexico by air as well as enter/leave the country.

Exiting Loreto by Plane

Marla Daily - 1-12-2010 at 08:23 AM

I can only speak for Loreto's immigration practices. If one's FM3 was not done, the "exit letter" was required. NO EXIT LETTER = NO BOARDING THE PLANE. Who wants to miss the plane? Who is going to stand there and argue "constitutional rights"?

One day at the airport I met a family of five (2 parents + 3 children) from Sitka, Alaska who were not allowed to board the plane (by immigration) because they didn't have their tourist visas. The mom had thrown them away at the hotel, thinking they were only for entering the country. The immigration fine was $50 US each —$250 for the family— or they would be held back and miss the plane. They had spent all their cash, and immigration wouldn't take a credit card. The mom was crying, and they weren't going to hold the plane much longer. I loaned the money to these perfect strangers from Sitka so their family could leave Loreto, and yes, I received a thank you card with repayment.

In a town with a small airport, few flights and two immigration officers, that's just how it is.

PS: Local immigration knows who holds what paperwork in town! And once one has an FM2 or FM3, it is illegal to enter the country with a tourist visa.

Cypress - 1-12-2010 at 08:36 AM

They had some sort of scam going at the airport, charging additional fees for visiting the mainland. Something about requiring extra signatures.

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