BajaNomad - Mexican Goverment stupidity at its worst

Mexican Goverment stupidity at its worst

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JESSE - 12-22-2009 at 12:13 PM

Sad news today, very sad news. The family of the navy special forces soldier who died a few days ago during the raid and death of drug lord Beltran Leyva, where killed today at their home in Tabasco. I am incredibly angry at the stupidity of our goverment, and how NOBODY, not ONE person in the entire federal goverment, was smart enough to realize that the family needed armed escorts, after the funeral services where broadcasted in national TV from their home.

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID POLITICIANS!!!

[Edited on 12-22-2009 by JESSE]

Von - 12-22-2009 at 12:22 PM

Typical Mexicans who just dont give a DAM. Sometimes i feel so sorry for my people.

surfer jim - 12-22-2009 at 12:43 PM

It's really more about getting rid of the cartels than guarding the families.As long nothing is done nobody will be safe anywhere.

[Edited on 12-22-2009 by surfer jim]

DENNIS - 12-22-2009 at 01:10 PM

This is a heavy message they're sending to the guys in the military. A lot for a young mind to deal with. It is terrorism at its most gruesome and can't be ignored.

on point

wessongroup - 12-22-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This is a heavy message they're sending to the guys in the military. A lot for a young mind to deal with. It is terrorism at its most gruesome and can't be ignored.

ditto's

TRAGIC

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-22-2009 at 01:14 PM

READ HERE-IT'S IN SPANISH

arrowhead - 12-22-2009 at 01:34 PM

The cartels are using Al Queda terrorist tactics. Killing innocent people to make the gov't think twice and perhaps sue for a truce.

Calderon- Between a Rock and a Hard Place

Bajahowodd - 12-22-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
The cartels are using Al Queda terrorist tactics. Killing innocent people to make the gov't think twice and perhaps sue for a truce.

IF suing for a truce was even considered by Calderon, he must also consider the consequences to his pocketbook. As best I can tell, The Merida Initiative was designed to give Mexico some $400 million a year for their drug war. And there's another $88 million sent to Mexico for other purposes. Who thinks the US will continue to pour money into Mexico if Calderon settles with the cartels?

And just what for might some proposed settlement take? Those guys are not going to give up their revenue stream, although I suppose it might be possible for them to agree to take "a pay cut" in return for not having to expend all the time, energy and money just to fend off the government.

JESSE - 12-22-2009 at 02:17 PM

488 million is pocket change compared to the 100 billion Mexico spends.

A Tragedy

Gypsy Jan - 12-22-2009 at 02:28 PM

Oh dear God, Jesse.

I understand, in my own comprehension, what you are saying. about violence, evil and the indifference and bureaucratic lack of interest in the people who they are supposed to serve.

My heart hurts for the surviving family, and my sincerest condolences for their great loss.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-22-2009 at 03:02 PM

Liberación De México - Méxicanos Al Grito De Guerra!

If he has not already done so, the President of Mexico needs to make a declaration of war against the drug cartels and their criminal element plaguing Mexico. The President needs to invoke Article 29 of the Mexican Constitution temporarily suspending all rights and establishing martial law and curfews. All of the Mexican Armed Forces need to deploy and sweep across Mexico starting at one end of Mexico sweeping through to the other side and up and down the peninsula of Baja California searching every home every rancho every building and under every rock arresting and/or killing the heads of the cartels and their henchmen. He needs to go big and not stop until Mexico has caught or killed every last one of the offenders. No Pussyfooting around.

toneart - 12-22-2009 at 04:16 PM

David,

Do you believe that the Mexican Government has the firepower, the military intelligence, and the will to do this? I agree, it's all or nothing, but is the Government up to the task? I have my doubts, but am certainly not confident in my assessment. You have been advocating this for quite awhile and it would appear that now's the time, or they will have to negotiate and start making deals. I know where you stand, but just offering a doubt. A lot of innocent people will be killed during this operation. How long do you think this would take?

I doubt whether the United States will join in that stage of the "War". Mexican national pride would not consider it and even if they were to, we are hopelessly over committed in another quagmire.

What would happen to gringos living or vacationing there during this Constitution suspension and eradication drive?

Do you think we would be able to escape the country while this is going on or would we need to? :?:

fishbuck - 12-22-2009 at 04:20 PM

This is one of the worst things I have ever heard.

Packoderm - 12-22-2009 at 04:25 PM

Is this a map where the yellow line represents a sweeping action to indicate where the Mex. military will attempt to locate and perhaps even arrest some drug dealers? :lol:

SOMETHING MUST BE DONE

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-22-2009 at 04:49 PM

Tony, as well all know, especially me that I am not all seeing and all knowing and certainly have no inside information. I just know something drastic has to happen. That said I am optimistic that Mexico has enough people and equipment in their armed forces and their federal and state law enforcement entities to wage an effective war against the cartels and win. I am sure they have a very active human intelligence network which may or may not be adequate. I’m not sure. Of course, Mexico will need all the electronic intelligence they can get from the U.S. because of our technology, which I am sure the US will gladly give to Mexico. I seriously doubt that Mexico will make any deal with the cartels because once they do that the cartels win. I am also certain innocent lives will be lost because of the fighting. As far as time it will take, who knows probably years. As far as Americans living in Mexico they will be subject to Mexican law and will have to abide by it. As far as getting out while it’s going on I have no idea. It won’t be a popular thing this war on the cartels but I seriously feel it has to be done.

Another thing, the Mexican government also needs to update their laws to include life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for certain serious offenses and the death penalty for the more heinous crimes such as drug related murders and kidnappings, etc. They then need to carry out the sentences once handed down.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

sanfelipebob - 12-22-2009 at 04:56 PM

It is a sad situation Mexico does not have the ability to correct.

Donjulio - 12-22-2009 at 05:05 PM

The drug war won't end until the US Gov wants it to end. Which ain't going to happen. Too lucrative from all ends.

JESSE - 12-22-2009 at 06:29 PM

Heres interesting numbers, theres two blocks of cartels fighting each other. One is the sinaloa cartel, along with la familia cartel. The other is the beltran leyva cartel, the zetas, the juarez cartel, and the tijuana cartel.

The sinaloa cartel group is the most powerful of all, controls 47% of the drug trade in Mexico, and is trying to control Tijuana and Juarez, thats why the violence in both cities. The beltran leyva block controls about 27% of the drug trade. (the rest goes to independents).

Now heres the deeply worrisome data for me:

Only 1% of all drug convictions belong to the sinaloa cartel, while 27% belongs to their competitors.

These numbers tell me the goverment is actually supporting one cartel and attacking the other, wich would explain the violence.

k-rico - 12-22-2009 at 06:42 PM

Jesse,

Where does the Michoacan based La Familia cartel fit in? Are they a relatively new organization?

They have recently used bombs in their terror tactics. I really hope that doesn't catch on with the other cartels. Very scary.

k-rico - 12-22-2009 at 06:51 PM

Just found this:

La Familia, the newest of Mexico's five major cartels, has become entrenched in many U.S. cities after flourishing in Mexico through entrepreneurial zeal, brutality and promises to spin drug profits into "divine justice," or social benefits for its impoverished home state.

La Familia opposes the sale of methamphetamine to Mexicans, for example, but is responsible for the "vast majority" of the lucrative drug entering the United States from Mexico, said Michele M. Leonhart, acting DEA administrator.

The cartel, based in the southwestern Mexico state of Michoacan, has also benefited from a splintering of older cartels, and its effort to gain social legitimacy is combined with a savage program to kill, coerce and corrupt security and government personnel, Mexican analysts said.

In Washington, Holder said that U.S. authorities have targeted La Familia for 44 months. Under the effort, called Project Coronado, the federal government has arrested 1,186 people and seized $32.8 million, 2,710 pounds of methamphetamine, 1,999 kilograms of cocaine, 29 pounds of heroin, 16,390 pounds of marijuana, 389 weapons and 269 vehicles.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10...

Mexicorn - 12-22-2009 at 07:24 PM

La Famillia aka mata Zetas. None of their members are allowed to use meth.
No one in Michocan is allowed to use meth.

JESSE - 12-22-2009 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Jesse,

Where does the Michoacan based La Familia cartel fit in? Are they a relatively new organization?

They have recently used bombs in their terror tactics. I really hope that doesn't catch on with the other cartels. Very scary.

They are also allies of the sinaloa cartel, thus their meteoric rise.

Donjulio - 12-22-2009 at 07:28 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_transnational_anti-crime_an...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking

http://www.ciadrugs.com

http://www.narconews.com/Issue51/article3031.html

This is why it isnt going to end anytime soon.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by Donjulio]

Dave - 12-22-2009 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
These numbers tell me the goverment is actually supporting one cartel and attacking the other, wich would explain the violence.

That the government would 'play' one cartel against the other isn't surprising. It's classic warfare tactics. My concern is that there is significant evidence that various political factions have allied with and/or are, in some fashion, being controlled by competing cartels. So the penultimate question would be:

Will this strategy ultimately lead to the cartel's destruction or is it simply a devilish ploy employed to consolidate political control and strengthen Mexico's oligarchy?

What's your opinion?

TonyC - 12-22-2009 at 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by surfer jim
It's really more about getting rid of the cartels than guarding the families.As long nothing is done nobody will be safe anywhere.

[Edited on 12-22-2009 by surfer jim]

Your opinion....my opinion is that it's about family. How can anyone do there job/duty when there's no protection for your love ones. The one big reason nothing can be accomplished on a large scale is because of retaliation, reprisal against the individuals family. Why do you think they wear mask, sent their family to the United State or else where....if they can afford it.

Jesse's on the money, stupid is stupid does. Unbelievably incompetent.

monoloco - 12-22-2009 at 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8

If he has not already done so, the President of Mexico needs to make a declaration of war against the drug cartels and their criminal element plaguing Mexico. The President needs to invoke Article 29 of the Mexican Constitution temporarily suspending all rights and establishing martial law and curfews. All of the Mexican Armed Forces need to deploy and sweep across Mexico starting at one end of Mexico sweeping through to the other side and up and down the peninsula of Baja California searching every home every rancho every building and under every rock arresting and/or killing the heads of the cartels and their henchmen. He needs to go big and not stop until Mexico has caught or killed every last one of the offenders. No Pussyfooting around.

Maybe we could lease them Guantanamo. Extraordinary rendition? Predator drones?

BajaGringo - 12-22-2009 at 09:09 PM

What an incredibly sad day for Mexico...

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-23-2009 at 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
Maybe we could lease them Guantanamo. Extraordinary rendition? Predator drones?

Monoloco, Mexico just needs to take one of their desolate islands and make a prison hellhole for all involved in this narco mess. Something like "Devil's Island." As for Predator Drones... I'm all for the US giving it to Mexico. They must be armed with Hellfire Missles though.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 07:49 AM

Want to destroy the Cartel's.... give them AIG and the rest in the financial community...
:lol:

sanfelipebob - 12-23-2009 at 07:57 AM

This thing is scaring people. I talked to a person today who's family is cancelling a reunion in Mazatlan. 136 potential tourist lost.

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 08:10 AM

After an hour of reading about La Familia Michoacana I better understand the reasons behind the drug war and think the rise of this organization is the spark that lit Calderon's fire.

Their blatant and brutal socio-political engineering in the state of Michoacan, where Calderon is from BTW, is truly dangerous to the republic. Much more so than old fashioned narcos. And their specialty is methamphetamine, the cruelest of addictive drugs. They are smart enough to prohibit its use by their members and within the communities they control.

Perhaps what I thought to be hyperbole about the possibilty of a "failed state" is real if their ideas spread to other states.

My position to stop the war and let the drugs flow is changing.

Grrrrrr

P.S. For the life of me I don't understand why the handful of chemical companies in the world that manufacture ephedra which is necessary for meth production aren't shut down. Well I do understand, cold medicine is big business, but it comes with a heavy price. Stuffed up noses, how horrible.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by k-rico]

CaboRon - 12-23-2009 at 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanfelipebob
This thing is scaring people. I talked to a person today who's family is cancelling a reunion in Mazatlan. 136 potential tourist lost.

Very Wise

Mexicorn - 12-23-2009 at 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
After an hour of reading about La Familia Michoacana I better understand the reasons behind the drug war and think the rise of this organization is the spark that lit Calderon's fire.

Their blatant and brutal socio-political engineering in the state of Michoacan, where Calderon is from BTW, is truly dangerous to the republic. Much more so than old fashioned narcos. And their specialty is methamphetamine, the cruelest of addictive drugs. They are smart enough to prohibit its use by their members and within the communities they control.

Perhaps what I thought to be hyperbole about the possibilty of a "failed state" is real if their ideas spread to other states.

My position to stop the war and let the drugs flow is changing.

Grrrrrr

P.S. For the life of me I don't understand why the handful of chemical companies in the world that manufacture ephedra which is necessary for meth production aren't shut down. Well I do understand, cold medicine is big business, but it comes with a heavy price. Stuffed up noses, how horrible.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by k-rico]

If thats the case what do you expect us Americans to stuff up our collective noses, Slam in our veins and fill our lungs with?
Are you nuts. Drugs are Mexicos No. 1 GNP!

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn
If thats the case what do you expect us Americans to stuff up our collective noses, Slam in our veins and fill our lungs with?
Are you nuts. Drugs are Mexicos No. 1 GNP!

Please buy your drugs from dealers that sell drugs manufactured in the United States.

The northwest US grows the best pot. US meth is still available, and if opiates are your thing, there are some fine pharmaceuticals available on the street.

BUY AMERICAN!!!!

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
Maybe we could lease them Guantanamo. Extraordinary rendition? Predator drones?

It won't work because there will always be somebody else to fill the void. As long as 1% of the population controls 90% of the wealth, the country will be rife with corruption and there will be no shortage of desperate people to do the dirty work of the cartels. The only way out of this is to create an economy that provides opportunities for people to pull themselves out of poverty.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 09:53 AM

Monoloco.. is that right... 1 %!!

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 09:56 AM

I don't know the exact number, but the point is that it's a very small percent.

Packoderm - 12-23-2009 at 10:01 AM

It won't work because the dominant cartel will use these concentration camps merely to punish members of the lesser cartels. The U.S. would have used the same type of thing to deal with boozers during the '20s if that type of thing would work. It's funny that you never hear debate on how the U.S. could have won the war on booze. We could have closed down the whole country and declared martial law. If we did, we would probably have a much more repressive govt. now.

DENNIS - 12-23-2009 at 10:14 AM

Mexico doesn't have to build or maintain anything like a camp or gulag. All they have to do is deport the offenders to the US and their maintenance becomes our responsibility.

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I don't know the exact number, but the point is that it's a very small percent.

Yes, but we're talking about Mex, not the US. Just kidding, sort of.

Plutocratic rule! Making a comeback to a country near you. Video at 6 o'clock.

OK, back to drugs, they're more fun.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by k-rico]

Woooosh - 12-23-2009 at 10:45 AM

It's very sad the family was targeted, but not surprising. Many of the "corrupt" in Mexico are now claiming to be extortion victims themselves- "Take our money and do what we tell you- or your family dies". What would you do faced with that type of threat? You take the money, you do their work and you pray someone else takes the people who threaten you down soon.

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 10:46 AM

Can't tell the players without a scorecard.

More about La Familia Michoacana - a snippet from a report.

the group is a powerful criminal organization able and willing to conduct attacks that stand out for their brazenness and gravity even by Mexico’s standards.

LFM stands out among the various drug cartels that operate throughout Mexico for several reasons. Unlike other cartels that have always been focused on drug trafficking, LFM first arose in Michoacan several years ago as a vigilante response to kidnappers and drug gangs — particularly those that produced and trafficked methamphetamines — that operated in the state. With banners and advertisements in local newspapers, LFM made its anti-crime message well known — along with its willingness to use extreme violence against suspected kidnappers, drug traffickers, and other criminals.

Before long, however, LFM members were themselves accused of conducting the very crimes they had opposed, including kidnapping for ransom, cocaine and marijuana trafficking, and eventually, methamphetamine production. Currently, the group is the largest and most powerful criminal organization in Michoacan — a largely rural state located on Mexico’s southeastern Pacific coast — and maintains a significant presence in several surrounding states. The extent to which has succeeded in corrupting public officials across Michoacan testifies to the depth of its involvement in the state.

Beyond its vigilante origins, LFM has also set itself apart from other criminal groups in Mexico based on its almost cult-like ideological and cultural principles. LFM leaders are known to distribute documents to the group’s members that include codes of conduct, as well as pseudoreligious quotations from a man known as “El Mas Loco” (“the craziest one”), who appears to serve as a sort of inspirational leader for the group.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I don't know the exact number, but the point is that it's a very small percent.

got it

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
It won't work because there will always be somebody else to fill the void. As long as 1% of the population controls 90% of the wealth, the country will be rife with corruption and there will be no shortage of desperate people to do the dirty work of the cartels. The only way out of this is to create an economy that provides opportunities for people to pull themselves out of poverty.

I assume that by the void you mean the supplier to the market. If that's the case, I think you are spot on. As long as there is a market someone will supply it. The cartels are in a fierce battle for market share. The market is overwhelmingly in the US. I'd be tempted to lay off them....completely. Just don't hurt people who don't participate in the market. How they get the crap to their primary market is their issue and the US's. No help, no hindrance.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

If thats the case what do you expect us Americans to stuff up our collective noses, Slam in our veins and fill our lungs with?
Are you nuts. Drugs are Mexicos No. 1 GNP!

both on target

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady

Quote:

Yes, except the profits from the drug trade are being used to gain control of the government elected by the people, blatantly and violently in Michoacan. At first glance that seems to be a dangerous development. These guys are way too violent. Benevolent dictators I think not.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by k-rico]

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Yes, except the profits from the drug trade are being used to gain control of the government elected by the people, blatantly and violently in Michoacan. At first glance that seems to be a dangerous development. These guys are way too violent. Benevolent dictators I think not.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by k-rico]

I realize that. But, why? I'm basing on the assumption (and I know it may be a big one and it may be wrong) that their motivation is fundamentally money much more than power per se. The desire to control a government may be born out of the need for a place to operate thier business. Yep, manufacture and distribute. I am theorizing that if the government didn't get in the way of their business they wouldn't give a twit about who was running the country or a state. Drugs are a business because there is a market.
A family was just wiped out, for what? The market still exists, there's still someone in the US who wants to use drugs and there will always be someone to get it to them.
In some ways Mexico may have allowed itself to be used by the US as sort of a first line market regulator.

Hey....I know this all may sound completely nuts...in my case I s'pose it wouldn't be the first time.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by oldlady]

DENNIS - 12-23-2009 at 12:34 PM

A large hope at this point is that they continue to fight among themselves. If their differences are resolved, they would join and with their extensive wealth be able to co-opt the disenfranchised in their fight against the government. Then...the big one will be on.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 12:40 PM

One could argue the inevitability of that premise in any country?

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 01:11 PM

Calderon is like a guy not wearing netting, who swats at a hornet's nest. I've read with interest, all the posts on this thread. In my opinion, this mess is destined to continue. Oldlady is correct that despite the cult-like overtones, of the one cartel, it is really about the money. It would be prudent for the government to dial it back a bit and let the cartels fight amongst themselves. Ultimately, decimated cartels will likely call a truce and work as one. When the inter-cartel strife has diminished, one could posit that then would be the propitious time for the government to ramp up their efforts. However, time is not on Calderon's side. He has a single six year term that began in 2006. Remembering that it was a greatly contested election, it wouldn't take much of a crystal ball to predict that the Mexican left should be able to prevail in the next election.

One observation that can be made about winning contested elections and governing without majority support would be a parallel to GWB in the US. Bush barely squeeked into office and immediately began acting as if he had a mandate. For Bush, it worked. Mexican culture and society are different. Calderon thought he could be GWB, but can't pull it off. Frankly, I don't foresee much changing in this situation until after the next presidential election.

And does anyone think much can be done, if anything, to diminish demand for drugs?

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 01:19 PM

re: controlling the government

"I realize that. But, why?"

Oh, I dunno, how about that means they control PEMEX.

Maybe they have ideologies.

Why do rich people want to control the government? - ask your state senator

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
In some ways Mexico may have allowed itself to be used by the US as sort of a first line market regulator.

That's certainly what it's become but I doubt planned. Why would the U.S. trade Colombia for Mexico? Makes no sense to move your dealer next door.

JESSE - 12-23-2009 at 01:26 PM

This war on drugs is the result of decades of injustice and shutting the door on millions while a few families get rich. It isn't just about money, theres a certain anger, a certain wish to get even or back at the power brokers in this nation. many narcos work for little money, they seem in my opinion, to be willing to do almost anything in order to get a taste of power, of control over their lives.

I blame directly the Carlos Slim's of Mexico as well as the politicians from all parties for this.

They have taken the people of Mexico to a point where they don't give a damn anymore because they have nothing to lose. And they are finding crime in the drug business, as the perfect way to get payback.

DENNIS - 12-23-2009 at 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And does anyone think much can be done, if anything, to diminish demand for drugs?

Hermetically seal the ports and border. That would be a start. Legalization is such a worn out issue but, that would also help. The cartels just have to be denied their market.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 01:29 PM

I don't know very much about the drug business, Dave....I thought Colombia was primarily manufacturer with some distribution and that Mexico was the opposite, primarily distribution. So the "dealer" in my scenario would be a combination of both.

As for why the US would trade....the market will go for the best price/performer...if by US you mean the government I'm not sure they have sufficient control of the market components to make a "trade". These guys ain't GM and Chrysler.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady

Quote:

I think that they control more than just the government of Michoacan, a lot of people down here think they control the government of BCS. I am sure that their tentacles extend deeper than most of us realize. They have been building their network for a very long time.

ABSOLUTELY

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And does anyone think much can be done, if anything, to diminish demand for drugs?

Harsh penalties--strict enforcement.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
This war on drugs is the result of decades of injustice and shutting the door on millions while a few families get rich. It isn't just about money, theres a certain anger, a certain wish to get even or back at the power brokers in this nation. many narcos work for little money, they seem in my opinion, to be willing to do almost anything in order to get a taste of power, of control over their lives.

I blame directly the Carlos Slim's of Mexico as well as the politicians from all parties for this.

They have taken the people of Mexico to a point where they don't give a damn anymore because they have nothing to lose. And they are finding crime in the drug business, as the perfect way to get payback.

Exactly, the number of Mexican billionaires went from 2 to 24 under the Salinas regime while the actual wages of the average citizen declined. The net worth of Mexico's billionaires soared from 4% of GDP in 2000 to 6% in 2006.

arrowhead - 12-23-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And does anyone think much can be done, if anything, to diminish demand for drugs?

Harsh penalties--strict enforcement.

Well, I think a better way to go is to cut demand for drugs. Instead of giving billions to Mexico for drug intervention, why not just spend it on a domestic program to teach people against the use of drugs? Remember how you cannot watch TV for more than 5 minutes without a political ad right before the presidential elections? The media is totally saturated with such ads. It is impossible to avoid them.

Why not just saturate the US with anti-drug messages in every form of media we have? Make people so sick of hearing about it that they will avoid drugs just in the hope the ads would stop. Besides that, it is entirely domestic spending, not foreign aid.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And does anyone think much can be done, if anything, to diminish demand for drugs?

Harsh penalties--strict enforcement.

We tried that, it was called mandatory minimum sentencing. It succeeded in filling our prisons with millions of drug offenders costing the taxpayer billions of dollars but did nothing to reduce the amount of drugs on the street. The best indicator of supply is price and the price of cocaine is lower now than it was in the 70's.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 01:50 PM

Quote:

You mean like the DARE program, Just say No, and This is Your Brain On Drugs? It doesn't seem to have worked very well so why would more of the same?

You Got That Right

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:

and whilst on the topic of concentration of wealth, I almost get the feeling that the US and Mexico are on the same track heading in opposite directions. Blame Slim and his ilk all you wish. Fact is that Slim lived out the American Dream Mexico-style. Read his bio. He once drove a cab. Not to defend him, but is what's going on in the US any different? Only for the fact that the US once had a thriving middle class, that has been diminishing for decades. At least Mexico has a larger middle class than it had historically. The comparison boils down to poverty. The poor in the US have more than the poor in Mexico.

All that said, no offense to Arrowhead, but you could put Nancy Reagan on a continuous loop touting "Just Say No", and play it 24/7 in all media. People still want to get high.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 01:58 PM

Do you think those programs had the same level of commitment and money behind them as Global Warming? Gay Marriage? Pro-Choice? Cigarettes? Trans-fats? Political Campaigns of Hope and Change?

We've turned controlling sheeple into an art form.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

We are going down the same road in the US, just look at the disparity of executive compensation and wages. The US is heading towards the same kind of oligarchy that exists in Mexico.

Money Money Money

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
Do you think those programs had the same level of commitment and money behind them as Global Warming? Gay Marriage? Pro-Choice? Cigarettes? Trans-fats? Political Campaigns of Hope and Change?

We've turned controlling sheeple into an art form.

If, by commitment, you are speaking of expenditures of taxpayer dollars, why don't you check out how much this country has spent on the so-called war on drugs.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the single greatest success in marketing has been to convince people to buy stuff they don't need, and go into debt in the process.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

The drugs are probably part of the control equation. If you are stoned all the time you wouldn't know or care if you are being controlled, I think maybe that is why we have seen such a proliferation of drugs like Prozac.

No, we haven't

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
We tried that

I meant HARSH and STRICT not...

MINIMUM and MAYBE.

Draconian penalties, mandatory arrests, no plea bargain or expungement, no nada.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 02:14 PM

My goodness, monoloco, if I didn't "know" you better I'd say a tin foil hat fell out of the sky on you.....maybe it was mine.

You Would Love Iran

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
We tried that

I meant HARSH and STRICT not...

MINIMUM and MAYBE.

Draconian penalties, mandatory arrests, no plea bargain or expungement, no nada.

Or any number of countries that have no civil liberties. I'm guessing that you NEVER smoked pot. I'm guessing that you would blanket college campuses with police and arrest half of our student population, throw them in dungeons and throw away the key?

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
We tried that

I meant HARSH and STRICT not...

MINIMUM and MAYBE.

Draconian penalties, mandatory arrests, no plea bargain or expungement, no nada.

You mean like 5 years for a small amount of crack? We did that, it didn't work.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 02:21 PM

I wouldn't like those countries...but what they hey...we are losing our civil liberties every day anyway every day...The rest sounds just fine....I'd include the junior high and high schools too. Wouldn't throw away the key.
10 years ought to clean the users up and scare the ones who are thinking about it. Any amount of anything.
While this may come as a big surprise to some of you...many people have lived long and happy lives without using any illegal drugs.

[Edited on 12-23-2009 by oldlady]

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 02:24 PM

Geez. We already have the distinction of having more people in prison of all countries, except for Russia.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 02:24 PM

So what?

DENNIS - 12-23-2009 at 02:26 PM

Prisoners should be made to work. Dig things with their hands. Eat rocks and twigs.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 02:27 PM

Maybe we should just legalize every type of narcotic and sell them in the pharmacy. If you are certified by a doctor as a drug addict you get a prescription. That way there is no reason to steal to get a fix and if you OD so what. It has been proven, with heroin addiction, that given pure drugs, that an addict can be somewhat functional. It would deprive the cartels of their market and reduce crime in the US.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 02:40 PM

Nope. You'd be introducing a form of regulation and bureaucracy and the black market would still exist. That's the core of the problem we are trying to solve. Either let them buy, inexpensively, as much as they want wherever they want and have an orderly supply side or extinguish the market. This half baked approach has had no positive impact.

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

I'm guessing that you NEVER smoked pot. I'm guessing that you would blanket college campuses with police and arrest half of our student population, throw them in dungeons and throw away the key?

No. Strict enforcement would eliminate the need.

I've smoked pot...used other recreational drugs, also.

But if I were convinced of the consequences I wouldn't.

Would you?

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
In some ways Mexico may have allowed itself to be used by the US as sort of a first line market regulator.

That's certainly what it's become but I doubt planned. Why would the U.S. trade Colombia for Mexico? Makes no sense to move your dealer next door.

Unintended consequences. Way back in the last century one of the first tactical moves of the WAR ON DRUGS was to shut down the Caribbean drug route from Columbia. Don Johnson, Miami Vice, Scarface, you remember.

Escobar said OK, I'll talk to pineapple face in Panama. Next move, invade Panama. Pablo said OK, I like tequila, Mexico, here we come.

Canada, watch out, the Smyth Cartel of Windsor / Detroit is forming now! Canadian Snow.

Whack-a-mole.

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 02:49 PM

I want to correct a previous post. Having done a little research, here's some stats.

The US has approximately 5% of the world's population, but it has 23% of the world's prisoners. There are presently 2.3 million people incarcerated in the US. China, with four times the population (yeah, that China, where no one has any freedom) has four times the population of the US, but "only" 1.6 million prisoners.

Historically, the US was not in such a position. However, after 1975, the incarceration rates began to skyrocket, as a result of getting tough on crime attitudes of the prevailing government. (think- Nixon didn't like all the potheads returning from Viet Nam who mostly didn't smoke pot until they went off to war).

Interestingly, there are a number of countries that rival us in actual numbers of admissions to prisons, but as was mentioned earlier about mandatory minimum sentencing, prisoners serve far longer terms in the US than anywhere else.

It has also been posited that widespread availability of guns in the US allows for many more crimes that would meet the definition of being aggravated, thus resulting in longer sentencing.

Consequences?

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

No. Strict enforcement would eliminate the need.

I've smoked pot...used other recreational drugs, also.

But if I were convinced of the consequences I wouldn't.

Would you?

You are referring to incarceration? That threat has been around since the 1930s.

Timo1 - 12-23-2009 at 02:55 PM

OK
Here's a question for you
What do you think about Malaysia where DA-DA is death ???
You get caught....you die
any amount
Its even posted at the airports....DA-DA is death

k-rico - 12-23-2009 at 02:56 PM

The Brits started this business model over 100 years ago running Afghan and Indian opium into China. Got the whole freaking country addicted. The Commonwealth profited handsomely.

As an aside.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
Nope. You'd be introducing a form of regulation and bureaucracy and the black market would still exist. That's the core of the problem we are trying to solve. Either let them buy, inexpensively, as much as they want wherever they want and have an orderly supply side or extinguish the market. This half baked approach has had no positive impact.

You may be right, as far as I'm concerned they can sell the stuff at 7-11. I just don't want some crackhead crawling through my window and stealing my stuff to trade for dope. Let them have as much as they want, if they OD they will no longer be a problem.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
IHistorically, the US was not in such a position. However, after 1975, the incarceration rates began to skyrocket, as a result of getting tough on crime attitudes of the prevailing government. (think- Nixon didn't like all the potheads returning from Viet Nam who mostly didn't smoke pot until they went off to war).

Think something else...Nixon resigned in 74.

Packoderm - 12-23-2009 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
We tried that

I meant HARSH and STRICT not...

MINIMUM and MAYBE.

Draconian penalties, mandatory arrests, no plea bargain or expungement, no nada.

You already can have that today - and more. Just move to China, and you'll have draconian enforcement of drug use and sales while having growing corruption spurred by prolific drug trafficking. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-06/23/content_624028...

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timo1
OK
Here's a question for you
What do you think about Malaysia where DA-DA is death ???
You get caught....you die
any amount
Its even posted at the airports....DA-DA is death

I don't think it would work here. With all the appeals that go with a death sentence it takes about 10 years to execute even the most heinous of murderer. We would need a lot of new prisons just to hold the backlog.

Timo1 - 12-23-2009 at 03:07 PM

I kinda doubt the cartels want to ship to Malaysia...no market
Maybe its time to re-vamp some laws

Packoderm - 12-23-2009 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco

Quote:

If it came to that, it would be likely such intolerance would also spread to other facets of American life. In that case I'd apply to move to Canada or elsewhere because the U.S. would no longer be America in the sense of the word. I have an even better idea, those who want Singapore or Muslim style justice could just simply move to a suitable country today. Problem solved.

Threats?

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
You are referring to incarceration? That threat has been around since the 1930s.

You and I both know that most recreational users don't feel in the least threatened by incarceration. What are the chances going to jail for possession of a joint...or a bit of blow?

Consequences mean exactly that.

I'll leave you to figure it out. :rolleyes:

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
Problem solved.

Is your implication the staus quo is acceptable? And, that those who have issue with it should leave Mexico or the US?

Not Thinking Something Else

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady

Quote:

Think something else...Nixon resigned in 74.

The stats began to rise in 1975. It was Nixon and his Justice Department that laid the groundwork for the rise, during the Nixon administration.

I'm Dense

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
You are referring to incarceration? That threat has been around since the 1930s.

Why don't you help out this feeble old guy and give me a hint?

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 03:24 PM

Quote:

Where exactly would we put them if we were to lock up everyone caught with small amounts of dope? Would you be willing to accept a large tax increase to pay for the needed facilities?

Gay Rights

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Curious as to what forces you believe were behind the legalization of gay marriage in Mexico City the other day.

oldlady - 12-23-2009 at 03:31 PM

Aha! Now we are into implementation! The citizens of the US and Mexico are paying big time now...If I really worked at it I believe I could come up with a plan that would be "deficit-neutral" relative to incarceration. I'm serious. If Dave's theory is right, and I believe it is, both countries would see a steep decline in users. After the first few years and a corollary "education" program, drug use would loose a lot of it's appeal.

Packoderm - 12-23-2009 at 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
Problem solved.

Is your implication the staus quo is acceptable? And, that those who have issue with it should leave Mexico or the US?

I'd say that my issue lies with those whose first reaction to challenges in our society is to curtail liberty. Bonus points for whoever can name who quote this: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Timo1 - 12-23-2009 at 03:39 PM

Bozo the clown ????

Lets play pretend

Dave - 12-23-2009 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Why don't you help out this feeble old guy and give me a hint?

Pretend you're a recreational drug user. Would there be a definite consequence that would correct your behavior?

And Monoloco, I'm not convinced that it would necessarily include incarceration.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 03:43 PM

The infrastructure was already in Mexico to move it (drugs) as it has been a very, very long time

What's the name of the "gulch/ravine" on MEX 1 as you reach the top of the grade on the way to Playas Tijuana..

Black tar and pot have been the main stays for some time, coke just fell into Mexico's "lap" so to speak after the U.S. did in Pablo Escobar.. Columbia's coco plants did not know they should stop growing, nor did the poor folks the grow them after the end of Mr Escobar.

So production continues, demand continues what was needed was a means to get them to the States and who had things ready for that..

Legalization, jail, death .. it's all been tried.. about the only Countries who have had some degree of control are completely totalitarian in nature.. Myanmar/Burma has pretty much move the Heroin trade to Afghanistan though the use of automatic death of anyone messing with it... and we know what kind of success the world is having addressing the production of poppies in Afghanistan..

Still believe that if one wants to shoot junk or what ever, they should have the right to do it.. as for the problems this create within society.. if there is no War on Drugs.. the funds could be used to pay for the drugs and the users long term medical care once moved into the "recovery" stage... as we are paying it all now plus the War on Drugs.. we could just cut out the impact to the non-involved parties in the process to some degree

Close

Bajahowodd - 12-23-2009 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timo1
Bozo the clown ????

NOT! It was some clown named Benjamin Franklin. We all know what a clown he was. :no:

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