GeoRock - 7-6-2004 at 10:15 PM
Here's the link:
http://www.viamagazine.com/top_stories/articles/mexicos_wild...
Has some interesting info in the write-up.
Copper Canyon
JZ - 7-6-2004 at 10:53 PM
"The overland, rail leg of this trip on the rather grand South Orient Express commences at Los Mochis on the mainland side of the Sea of Cortez. The
destination, 200 miles to the east, is the rim of the Copper Canyon?a section of North America's largest canyon system. The larger system of canyons
that holds the famed Barranca del Cobre is actually the convergence of many deep gorges, cut by rivers such as the Urique, Tara-r?cua, and Batopilas.
Four of the many gorges are deeper than the Grand Canyon and together are considerably more extensive in volume.
Travelers whose experience allows them to compare say that the train ride into these highlands is one of the most spectacular to be had anywhere. With
mountain walls closing in, the train climbs about 8,000 feet from the sea, ascending through 87 tunnels and across some of the world's highest
bridges, making sharp, sometimes 180-degree switchbacks. Along the way are glimpses of spectacular canyons?the Septentri?n, Urique, and Tarar?cua.
Then the Copper?named not for its minable minerals (which were gold and silver) but for the colors of its walls. "
wilderone - 7-7-2004 at 11:16 AM
Have made two Copper Canyon trips - easily doable without commerical "assistance". Highly recommend it - all the hype is true - and then some. A bus
ride and overnight (or 2 nights) stay in Batopilas is a must. The hotels along the rim of the Copper Canyon outside Divisidero are magnificent, but a
bit pricey - $100-$200+, but actually worth it. Other rooms (Creel, Batopilas, El Fuerte) are available from $10-35.
Neal Johns - 7-7-2004 at 07:50 PM
I have led three, free, 4wd trips (for the Barstow Museum Desert Explorers) to Copper Canyon, then west to Alamos, with stops at (in order):
Casas Grandes (Paquime ? ancient Indian ruins)
Colonia Juarez (Mormon colony)
Mata Ortiz (Pottery and potter Juan Quesada)
Valley of the Caves (Cave of the Olla)
Arroyo de los Monos (petroglyphs)
Madera area archeological sites
Basaseachic Falls (big!)
Creel (heart of the Copper Canyon area)
Cusarare Falls
Batopilas (bottom of canon ? Silver!)
Satevo Mission
El Divisadero
Urique (bottom of canon)
Temoris
Chinipas
Alamos (former Capital of Sonora)
See:
http://www.desertexplorers.com/tr-cucyn99/cucyn.htm
http://www.desertexplorers.com/ccfotos.htm
http://www.desertexplorers.com/patvirg.htm
http://www.desertexplorers.com/hughes.htm
When I was a few decades younger, I hiked from Batopilas to Urique. Never again.
This place sounds awesome!
JZ - 7-7-2004 at 08:03 PM
Is a 2-3 trip starting in San Carlos, Sonora possible. What would be a good itinerary and distances.
Neal Johns - 7-7-2004 at 08:09 PM
JZ, get a Mexico map for distances, my trip (above) takes about 18 days from Southern California and return.
daveB - 7-7-2004 at 08:35 PM
Took the train about four months ago,
El Fuerte to Creel and back. Spectacular, both the scenery and the ride! Needed more time, though, did not get into the heart of the Baranncas del
Cobre. For that you need more time and a set of wheels. We were impressed by the excellent condition of the highways that do exist between the towns
and the Tarahumaras who live at high altitude in the area. We will return!
GeoRock - 7-7-2004 at 08:57 PM
I have also taken the train: spectacular. And spent time in Creel and Batapilas.
I posted the article link as it has info on Baja, though I'm glad folks enjoy the Copper Canyon info as well.
David K - 7-7-2004 at 09:15 PM
I am not sure of the year, but about 1963 my folks and I took the train to Los Mochis and back to Chihuahua or maybe Juarez... I think the railroad
was just completed and I recall lots of bridges, tunnels, and curves where you could easily see the front of the train from the rear. We hit a cow as
well, and that caused a delay. I hope I find the slides and will share them. I was about 6 years old, if it was '63.
daveB - 7-7-2004 at 10:00 PM
Yes, David, the train is still a marvel, though no less so than the beauty of the route-high canyon walls, some lush areas of vegetation at lower
altitudes and when we rode, unbelievable flowering trees that literally carpeted the steep sidehills. At two or three sidings could be seen the RVs
driven onto flatcars in caravans of 15 or more, the owners sitting on lawnchairs in front or behind their rigs, taking it easy. Talked to one
gentleman who told us the price for joining the caravan, from Texas to Mazatlan, then north to Nogales, was $4 K. These days the train of five cars
including a dining car is slow, two engines pull up, coming back there is one; the best seat isn't a seat, its standing between the cars that are
gyrating in opposition, hang on! and keep a watch out for low branches and narrow tunnels if you're lucky to be by a door. We enjoyed El Fuerte as
well, saw no other tourists than ourselves while in town and by catching it there didn't have to get up so early!
wilderone - 7-8-2004 at 10:11 AM
JZ - don't have a map with me, so not sure where San Carlos, Sonora is, but if you only have 3 days, you should get on the train at Creel, Divisidero
or El Fuerte (if starting in El Fuerte, you'd travel north and get off at Creel). The train from Creel to El Fuerte takes about 7 hours and you see
the most spectacular portion of the canyon. Spend the night, then take the train back - so you see the best part of the canyon twice. This would be
a minimum "quickie" train trip. If I remember correctly, I think a one-way first class ticket from Divisidero to El Fuerte was about $35.00. One
could easily stretch this into a two-week trip with their own car trying to see everything and really appreciate the area and its people as outlined
in Neal Johns' post.
Thanks
JZ - 7-8-2004 at 08:50 PM
San Carlos is about 70 miles south of Hermosillo. It is right next to Guaymas on the coast.
Eyeballing a rough map, it looks like it is 150-200 miles from El Fuerte.
And the People are Great
Skeet/Loreto - 7-9-2004 at 05:43 AM
1996 My Father-in -Law and his wife were on a Trip in the Canyon, stopped at Creel and were staying in a small Motel,where during the Night he had a
Stroke. he weighted about 225.
6 strong Mexicanos picked him up with his Mattress,loaded him in to the back of a Pickup,took him up a rough road to a small Airstrip,where a
Mexicano Pilot took out the Rear Seats, placed him there and flew him to the hospital in Chihuahua.
The people did not ask for Pay, only fuel money for the Airplane!!
Med-flight wanted $15,000 to go pick him up and Fly him to El Paso{only on a Valid Credit Card}
Take your time through the Canyon. It is sometimes referred to as the 8th Wonder of the world.
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"
Lake Hidalgo
Ken Bondy - 7-10-2004 at 08:43 AM
I used to fly into El Fuerte and spend some time at the nearby Lake Hidalgo Lodge (bass and dove). Anybody know if it is still operating?
++Ken++
MED FLIGHT PRICE???
Barry A. - 7-10-2004 at 03:31 PM
Something is wrong with the Med-Flight price quoted for round trip El paso-Chihuahua city-El Paso. As an ex-commercial pilot, it should not have cost
more than about $500 to $1,500 max.. Somebody was really getting ripped off if they payed $15,000. But yes, the Mexicanos are great, I agree.
Chihuahua City is huge and has an excellent hospital, from what I understand.
Barry A
Skeet/Loreto - 7-10-2004 at 05:50 PM
Yes Barry, that was the Quoted Price!
In another case in Loreto, my Friend had a Stroke and Sat on the Tarmac at loreto Airport for 10 hours waiting for Transport to Scripps in San Diego.
Investigation reveled that the Med-flight had been "Brokering" the flight around the Various Services for the Lowest Flight while my Friend lay on a
Streacher awaiting a flight from San Diego.
That was in 1997, I hope it has changed, my information still show that there is a $10,000 charged to your Insurance for that Service today. Does
anyone have any information that shows different?
If you are in Loreto, I still think it is better to go to Constitution as there are 3 very good Hospitals only 90 miles away!
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"
thanks Skeet
Barry A. - 7-11-2004 at 10:01 AM
Amazing!!! Maybe I should get back into flying-----10 trips and I would have it made for the year, unless the Dr's. take it all. I am deffinitely
with you---I will take the nearest large Mexican hospital any time. I am way too cheap, and not that desperate, to give some airborne robber that kind
of dinero. Life is good---has been good, and I am ready for whatever, at my age.
Spent 11 days in, and around, the Copper Canyon complex several years ago, including the train ride from El Fuerte to Creel, and several days each at
Batopilas and Urique------what an amazing place, especially the diggins, the Satevo church, and old abandoned Hacienda at, and around, Batopilas.
The only down side were the pot-growers lurking all about , and their fancy vehicles. One incredible hotel at Tejaban, high on the north side of the
canyon of the Urique River, was a place to be remembered. We were the only guests staying there. No way a fancy hotel like that can survive without
subsidies------(reads "drug money", to me). The road into the hotel was a test in itself! Great area, and great people (other than the smugglers)!!!!
Thanks for your response. Barry
BarryA
Skeet/Loreto - 7-11-2004 at 11:40 AM
One other place on your way down , try Los Alamos, about 30 miles off the main road to Los M0uchis. It is an old Silver mining Town, where many large
Homes are built and surronded by thick Walls.Very few Tourist except for a couple of Weeks in Jan, when they have a Great Music Festival{Artist from
all over the world}.
Skeet?Loreto
Barry
jrbaja - 7-11-2004 at 12:04 PM
what was the attitude of all those smugglers growers you are referring to? Towards you as a tourist.
Were you ever asked about purchasing drugs or confronted by these guys?
And, is it still like that there? It has been famous for a growing region for years and it surprises me it is still happening, if it still is.
Seems like the fame would have brought in the soldiers. I sure run into them in some out of the way places.
JZ - 7-11-2004 at 12:05 PM
What type of music Skeet.
JR----attitudes of smugglers
Barry A. - 7-11-2004 at 06:18 PM
I was there about 4 years ago. Was on a tour with 12 people total, +2 guides. Although we saw several of the super fancy vehicles (4-wheel drives with
all the doo-dads) both at Batopilas and at Urique, we never actually came in contact with the drivers, or anyone we could deffinitely say was a
bad-guy. The guides were the nervous ones----we touri were to blissful and stupid to be alarmed. Never approached by anyone to sell us drugs. At the
fancy hotel at Tejaban, I walked all around the premises (outside)taking pictures, and was constantly followed by two guys who tried half-heartedly to
remain out of site. They may have been there just to see that I did not get in trouble, but, I got the deffinite feeling that I was not welcome to
walk where I wanted to, but nobody really tried to stop me, either. This hotel had a really nice runway with lights, nearby. We were there for 3 days
and no other guests arrived in that time. I checked the guest book when nobody was looking (or so I believed) and we were the only people signed in
for about 10 days. It is hard to keep a hotel viable with no guests----yet it was fully staffed, and looked really nice. Come to your own
conclusions----the other tour folks thought I was crazy, all but my wife, who knows that I am. The road in was so horrible that most "normal" guests
must fly in-----it occurred to me that flying in was a way for north bound smugglers to also visit, on their way to, and from, the USA on clandestine
missions. I have no proof of any of this----just my perception. Kinda added excitement to the whole trip, as if we needed more excitement. I did
notice that the guides were really nervous, but they denied it. We saw no evidence of soldiers, or even Federales, anywhere, unlike Baja CA. The
staff was generous and helpful and super friendly. This is a really nice place. I would go back in a heartbeat!!
Neal Johns - 7-12-2004 at 11:22 AM
From Google - a charity trip (Tarahumara Famine Relief Race) in 1996:
Following this visit we drove around the corner and to our absolute amazement ran smack dab into
the incredible Tejaban Lodge. Only open for a year, this Lodge took 40 men 2 years to build at a cost of
over $2 million! Constructed on the very edge of the Barranca del Cobre itself, this lodge is truly a marvel
of human ingenuity and folly all rolled up into one incredibly incongruous structure. From the polished
marble floors, to the luxuriously spacious dining room, to the TVs in the rooms that are remote operated but only have one Mexican channel. This place
is nuts and as the only guests we feel like we're either participants in the "Shining II" and Jack Nicholson's going to pop out with a hatchet, or the
"Twighlight Zone" and Rod Searling's going to ask us for a light of his cigarette. Either way it's a little twisted. We like it.
Manny, the nervous Inn keeper, checks us into our room and following a nice hot shower we're off
to dinner. Four Mrs. Paul's frozen fish sticks apiece, a side of beans, salad and tortillas? Well, it was food
and we were hungry. Gobbled it down, Manny lit a cozy fire in our room, and we went to bed.
The next morning dawns bright and we have a better view of the Canyon. It's truly magnificent and, though we're perched on the rim, we can't even see
the Urique River far below. It's that steep. We have a quick breakfast and Keefer and I decide to take a short walk out to the east so I can
photograph this
bizarre structure. We find a Tarahumara trail and are drawn deeper and deeper into the Canyon. The views are lofty and expansive and their presence
provides us with incredible energy as we climb on and on down the ancient trail. Soon we come upon a little hamlet with its dusty dry cornfield,
primitive log cabin and its pack of barking dogs. I holler an "Hola!" to the family below and proceed cautiously on. Once over the hill we see a young
boy, his mother, grandmother, a sister and a young brother. Thankfully they have locked the growling dogs in a chicken coop. We talk in broken
sentences of Spanish. Having gained a modicum of trust we begin to video the area and the Indians. The grandmother shies away and will not look at the
camera, but the others don't seem to mind. Having to meet Rick back in Cusarare at noon forces us to leave this enchanted area.
Tejaban
Barry A. - 7-12-2004 at 01:22 PM
Neil------you may not have seen them, but there were bad guys behind every tree around that hotel. The story I heard was that the place was built be
a retired Mexican Military pilot, and officer. I obviously picked up on the "pilot" aspect of the story, and you know what I suspected. (How does a
retired military officer get that kind of money???)
OK,OK----it is just a nice hotel, with a beautiful view------and our food in 2000 was really very good. But still----no guests???? something is
fishy here. (-: Barry
Good hotel / Bad Hotel
jrbaja - 7-12-2004 at 01:54 PM
either way, fascinating stories from both of you. Howz about some pictures?
pictures???
Barry A. - 7-12-2004 at 03:19 PM
I don't know how to do that.----but yours are sure great!!!! BArry
Thanks again Barry
jrbaja - 7-12-2004 at 03:27 PM
Do you want to learn? Do you have a scanner or digital camera?
Neal Johns - 7-12-2004 at 06:29 PM
Barry, I was not there - just posted the story because it was interesting. Probably was drug money.
posting pictures & tejaban
Barry A. - 7-12-2004 at 07:33 PM
JR------I am still in the stone age----no Digital camera, no scanner (that works). I notice that David K used a throw-away camera----is he using a
scanner? or do you know??
Neal-----thanks, Neal. I thought that you had led that trip. If you get the chance, you have to go there. We went with CALIFORNIA NATIVE, out of LA.
Great trip!!
Barry
Barry
jrbaja - 7-12-2004 at 07:57 PM
I'm not positive but I think you can have 35 mm film put on a cd wherever you develop them and then download them on your computer.
If your on here , your not to far behind. And, there is great information available from people that know a LOT about that stuff on here. I'm just
learnin too!