A Tale of Two Countries

I totally agree with anyone who's

Getting Stoned

If I witnessed an officer shoot anyone for throwing rocks, and then if he looked my way, I would say, "Yes Sir!" and put up my hands. But I wouldn't like it.

I wouldn't agree with his vehement reaction or his lethal decision to shoot to kill. It was not warranted. It was over the top. But the man with the gun is "Mr. Boss".

That is quite an act of desperation for the poor guy who was throwing rocks. It doesn't mean he is stupid. It just means that he is suddenly dead.

Testing the cop mentality is like the allegory of the Crocodile offering the Monkey a ride on his back across the river, promising that he wouldn't harm him. Halfway across the river the Crocodile throws the Monkey into the water and snaps him in two. The monkey's last words were, "Why are you doing this? You promised me you wouldn't" The Crocodile replied, "...because I am a Crocodile!"

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by toneart]

Hey, I'd keep it up now just to p*ss off The Gull and Mexicorn.

AHA!

Tony's cover is blown! My name is Toneart, not Tony. Toneart's alter ego is Tony.

Toneart knows nothing about "Tan So Do". Please explain it to him, er me, er...who ever the hell I am. Mayor Ramos put Toneart on his persona non grata list years ago for not spending enough money in Rosorito.

And now Tony is going *poof* into cyberspace,ignoring the cyberborder, just like Don Julio. Bye Dennis! Bye Cabezaflecha! o Puntadeflecha.

Stupid to bring a rock to a gun fight

rocks

Seems another group of individuals throw a lot of rocks.. and the other side does not open up on them.. I'm referring to the Palestinians vs the Israelis .. just one example of armed individuals not using lethal force against "rock" throwers..

I must say I admire their restraint... that would be a hard one...

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch If this is your definition of restraint against rock throwers I'd love to read how you define aggression! Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS Quote: Originally posted by toneart That is quite an act of desperation for the poor guy who was throwing rocks. It doesn't mean he is stupid. It just means that he is suddenly dead. Throwing rocks is an act of desperation? C'mon, Tony. It's an act of agression. A brutal attack. Shoot to kill. Seems another group of individuals throw a lot of rocks.. and the other side does not open up on them.. I'm referring to the Palestinians vs the Israelis .. just one example of armed individuals not using lethal force against "rock" throwers.. I must say I admire their restraint... that would be a hard one...

Thought the subject was folks throwing rocks without guns?

And I unaware "definitions" were being posted, as I never claimed my post to be a "definition"... only an example of a large group of people who throw a lot of rocks, just about daily.. and the people that are on the receiving end have some heavy duty fire power.. and don't open up on unarmed rock throwers... think the same was true in Ireland for sometime.. however there was an example a number of years ago, where the British did open up on the rock throwers.. killed quite a few, men, women and children... yeah, they brought a rock to a gun fight, only sad thing.... they didn't know the rules had changed for the day...

As for the job of BP, you bet it is one dangerous job, as is a crab fisherman, firemen, police officers and a lot of others and I take my hat off to those that have the "balls/guts/your choice" to pull the duty.... day in and day out..

Here is a type of aggression:

"It's all worked out for the best, anyway. The Aborigines wouldn't have done anything worthwhile with the land and now, thanks to our societal collective guilt, they're turning into Casino Magnates serving up mediocre food and yesterday's talent to attract suckers thinking they're going to get lucky.

People have a RIGHT to that land which they can HOLD on to. They should have done a better job developing Technology."

A form of aggression, and a mind set which feels completely at ease with this type of aggression, no harm no foul... it's from the board from one of our memebers

I do agree, if anyone with a gun tells you to do something.. just do it!! I do, and I have made this far with that thinking... as I have had a few pulled on me..

Used to worry about it, but one day after a lot of really bad problems at work and with the wife all day long, when I pulling into the garage, the garage door opener released and came down on the hood of the car as I was pulling in. I was just sitting there thinking why me.. and this large booming voice thundered out from the above .. "There is something about you that just pi***s me off" from then on it's all be easy

Hope this helps in understanding my post, as it is only a comment on the condition of life which we observed and talk about every day you can draw up side but it really doesn't change the situation which contributes to confrontation and/or rock throwing

Quote:

Rocks Kill if it hits your head! Someone throws rocks at me [depending on the distance and size of rock] "Deadly Force Is Authorized" PERIOD!

TO ARROWHEAD

Working it Out

PS: You may use this as your Avatar but expect it to be used in a post when you make a statement like you did!

"That's the problem with chatboards
and limited statements on the internet."- Soulpatch

You are responding to selective quotes that are edited by those posters who wish to grab a part that would support their philosophy. That's OK. I do it myself. But you must read the whole post that the selective extraction was taken from in order to get the whole context before you respond.

I guess, from your insinuations that you are a cop. Nothing wrong with that. We taxpayers expect protection and discerning quick judgment of our officers. I don't share your (and some others) view that rock throwers should be shot dead. It is not an equal stand off. Sure, rocks can cause injury, but there must be other ways to diffuse the confrontation.

To shoot them dead is wrong! You have the firepower, and with that comes the responsibility to assess the situation correctly. You are trained and licensed to do so.

To shoot to kill is a last resort, unless you see a firearm brandished. An officer who kills a human being is usually relieved of his duty until the situation is investigated. One reason is because of the trauma and remorse caused to the officer. When I read attitudes condoning "shoot to kill" rock throwers, I lose respect for that officer, and if not reprimanded, his command. You do not make us feel safer!

If you are that chickensh*t, to shoot to kill because you are afraid, or you have a preconceived bias, you do not belong in your occupation.

Rocks kill or cause Great Bodily Injury. Deadly Force is authorized in those instances. If some “Punk” comes up and starts throwing rocks he is doing so to severely injure or kill someone. It’s a graveyard move on their part and will solicit a deadly response. It will be deadly because no one is taught to shoot an arm or a leg. They are taught to shoot center mass to eliminate a threat and if the head gets hit, oh well I don’t have a problem with it because it usually terminates the threat immediately. The good guys are supposed to go home after the encounter, but some don’t and that really peees Me Off! I’ve been there, done that, and bought the f-ing tee shirt!



Edited: To add GIF for em·pha·sis!

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Your posts don't change my opinion. I disagree with your stances and that's the way it is.

God help us!

Edit: To induct Tony into the Taser Hall of Fame!

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8 Rocks kill or cause Great Bodily Injury. Deadly Force is authorized in those instances. If some “Punk” comes up and starts throwing rocks he is doing so to severely injure or kill someone. It’s a graveyard move on their part and will solicit a deadly response. It will be deadly because no one is taught to shoot an arm or a leg. They are taught to shoot center mass to eliminate a threat and if the head gets hit, oh well I don’t have a problem with it because it usually terminates the threat immediately. The good guys are supposed to go home after the encounter, but some don’t and that really peees Me Off! I’ve been there, done that, and bought the f-ing tee shirt! Edited: To add GIF for em·pha·sis! [Edited on 1-10-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch Hey Toneart, I suggest you read the whole post. I was pretty clear about it. And, if you read to the bottom, you will see I am a member of the IAFF. So, if you want to call me chickenchit, well, you can blow me. And, subsequent to that, feel free to pay me a visit anytime. Trust me, I am not afraid......that is too fricking funny. You have obviously never worked in a border zone. I have had the opportunity to do so and located more than one dead migrant for the ME after their journey didn't pan out so well. Try it sometime, it is dark and dangerous. [Edited on 1-10-2010 by soulpatch]

saints

You need some sense tasered into you by people with "small pen!ses!"

ELINVESTI8... thanks for the moderating humor of your posts... the graphics just change things a bit.. visuals are an excellent means to get a point across with humor if one choose to

It's all done in fun! If someone gets offended its because they have no sense of humor. Well the head shot might be a little much as far as humor goes. That was meant to be serious.

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch ...well, you can blow me.

Romantic ???



[Edited on 1-10-2010 by wessongroup]

Thank you for the good natured cartoon tasering, Ellie. I spared you my cartoon concealed weapon because that wouldn't have been fair! My cartoon lived through your cartoon taser. Oh, and I didn't drop trow. That wouldn't have been fair to you either.

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup Quote: Originally posted by lencho Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch ...well, you can blow me. Romantic ??? [Edited on 1-10-2010 by wessongroup]

Homoerotic fantasy?

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart Thank you for the good natured cartoon tasering, Ellie. I spared you my cartoon concealed weapon because that wouldn't have been fair! My cartoon lived through your cartoon taser. Oh, and I didn't drop trow. That wouldn't have been fair to you either.

Toneart you're a good natured person and I like you despite our philosophies!

David

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8 Quote: Originally posted by toneart Thank you for the good natured cartoon tasering, Ellie. I spared you my cartoon concealed weapon because that wouldn't have been fair! My cartoon lived through your cartoon taser. Oh, and I didn't drop trow. That wouldn't have been fair to you either. Toneart you're a good natured person and I like you despite our philosophies! David

Thank you, Amigo!

[color=darkblue]Barry, succinctly stated![/color]

[color=blood red]Rocks Kill! Just as Goliath was KILLED by one![/color]



[color=darkblue]Thank you Oldlady for jogging my brain housing group![/color]

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

These two children killed a child with a rock. Rocks KILL people!

Gulp! Here I go again:

Of course rocks kill. Teens killing a child with rocks is certainly a mismatch. Dropping rocks from an overpass is certainly criminal. They should be tried and prosecuted, but rightly, they weren't shot down.

My contention regarding rocks vs guns; it is a mismatch. I wasn't there for the border patrol incident and neither were any of you. I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. He obviously wasn't carrying a firearm or he would have tried using it instead of throwing rocks. I believe that killing should be a last resort; not the status quo police mentality, IF this is the status quo, as you guys state. If this IS the status quo from training, then I am very uncomfortable with you. (This is not what I want from law enforcement and you guys are scary). Surely the BP incident is being investigated....Isn't it

I have never had a problem with law enforcement and never will. I don't put myself into that position. In the few times I was stopped for a traffic law infraction, I was always respectful. I knew they were doing their job even though I wasn't happy about getting a ticket.

When I was a little kid I was lost one time. I was taught to go up to a cop and tell him if I ever had a problem like that, and so I did. He asked me for my address, which I knew, and he put me on his motorcycle with him and drove me home. I never forgot that. That trust stayed with me all these years.

I have always respected law enforcement officers. I always felt that they would be there to protect me, if needed. I always thought police were the good guys vs the bad guys. I never want them to be hurt, and more importantly, killed. I want them to be so well trained that they are discerning, quicker thinking, smarter and more familiar with their weapons that the bad guys, and to never lose sight of the awesome responsibility they carry with that weaponry. -To Serve and Protect!

Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true. And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned.

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart Gulp! Here I go again: Of course rocks kill. Teens killing a child with rocks is certainly a mismatch. Dropping rocks from an overpass is certainly criminal. They should be tried and prosecuted, but rightly, they weren't shot down. My contention regarding rocks vs guns; it is a mismatch. I wasn't there for the border patrol incident and neither were any of you. I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. He obviously wasn't carrying a firearm or he would have tried using it instead of throwing rocks. I believe that killing should be a last resort; not the status quo police mentality, IF this is the status quo, as you guys state. If this IS the status quo from training, then I am very uncomfortable with you. (This is not what I want from law enforcement and you guys are scary). Surely the BP incident is being investigated....Isn't it I have never had a problem with law enforcement and never will. I don't put myself into that position. In the few times I was stopped for a traffic law infraction, I was always respectful. I knew they were doing their job even though I wasn't happy about getting a ticket. When I was a little kid I was lost one time. I was taught to go up to a cop and tell him if I ever had a problem like that, and so I did. He asked me for my address, which I knew, and he put me on his motorcycle with him and drove me home. I never forgot that. That trust stayed with me all these years. I have always respected law enforcement officers. I always felt that they would be there to protect me, if needed. I always thought police were the good guys vs the bad guys. I never want them to be hurt, and more importantly, killed. I want them to be so well trained that they are discerning, quicker thinking, smarter and more familiar with their weapons that the bad guys, and to never lose sight of the awesome responsibility they carry with that weaponry. -To Serve and Protect! Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true. And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned.

Hey David. Lighten up a bit. Tony is actually one of the good guys around here.

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart Quote: Originally posted by ELINVESTI8 Quote: Originally posted by toneart Thank you for the good natured cartoon tasering, Ellie. I spared you my cartoon concealed weapon because that wouldn't have been fair! My cartoon lived through your cartoon taser. Oh, and I didn't drop trow. That wouldn't have been fair to you either. Toneart you're a good natured person and I like you despite our philosophies! David Thank you, Amigo!

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd Hey David. Lighten up a bit. Tony is actually one of the good guys around here.

Howard, I know! We already squared that away! Tony has been inducted in my "Elinvesti8's Taser Hall of Fame!"




[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Is that a good thing???

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd Is that a good thing???

Tony is a little worse for wear, but ok!

"Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvest18)
This doesn't square with this:
"If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life. The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvest18)

My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation.
"I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him.-Toneart "
Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"-David (Elinvest18)
Charge him, fast! You (the officer) is probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and head. Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before you shoot to kill.

Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance. I still see holes in it to which I am answering here.

David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro!

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart "Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvest18) This doesn't square with this: "If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life. The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvest18) My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation. "I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him.-Toneart " Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"-David (Elinvest18) Charge him, fast! You (the officer) is probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and head. Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before you shoot to kill. Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance. I still see holes in it to which I am answering here. David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro!

Wait a second Tony, I have to go find and alter a Gif showing me yanking out my hair or those few hairs I have left out from their roots. I'll be back!

DAVID YANKING OUT HIS HAIR

Originally posted by toneart
"Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvesti8)
This doesn't square with this:
"If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life.

The key words are threat upon his/her life”

“The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvesti8)

My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation.
"I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. - Toneart "

Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"- David (Elinvesti8)

Toneart said: Charge him, fast! You (the officer) are probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and head. Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before you shoot to kill.

If they do what you say here the officer does not get to go home because he is dead!

Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance. I still see holes in it to which I am answering here.

David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro!lol! Oh you wait!

[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

Barry, the "without thinking" is what I have trouble with. If that is what your training is about, I don't like it.

True, "thinking" gets me in trouble sometimes, especially in conversations like this, but then I wouldn't be very good cop material. Having said that, I am rather self-righteous about it. I am glad I am me and think the way I do. I could never agree to take a job or train to kill without thinking.

Furthermore, I don't see Mexican aliens illegally as criminals. Law breakers, yes, but not criminals. They are not Cartel goons out there walking in the Arizona desert. They are simple, uneducated people looking for a way to make a living for their families.

"Wait a second Tony, I have to go find and alter a Gif showing me yanking out my hair or those few hairs I have left out from their roots. I'll be back!"- David

Watch what you are yanking there, Ricardochico.

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart Barry, the "without thinking" is what I have trouble with. If that is what your training is about, I don't like it. True, "thinking" gets me in trouble sometimes, especially in conversations like this, but then I wouldn't be very good cop material. Having said that, I am rather self-righteous about it. I am glad I am me and think the way I do. I could never agree to take a job or train to kill without thinking. Furthermore, I don't see Mexican aliens illegally as criminals. Law breakers, yes, but not criminals. They are not Cartel goons out there walking in the Arizona desert. They are simple, uneducated people looking for a way to make a living for their families.

Arrrrrrrrrrrgggg------Tony, Tony, Tony-------this "law breaker" had ALREADY injured the dog and the officer!!!!! He had graduated from being a "law breaker" into a criminal, assualting and officer!!

-----and yes, many would not make good LE officers-----that's ok, and I understand completely. But please allow those that do make good officers the flexibility to DO THEIR JOBS.

I have said way more now than I ever thought would be necessary, and I concede that changing minds is often impossible, no matter the evidence. Please, please don't ever accept a job as a jurist, tho----Please!!!

Barry

Got it Toneart. You're through with the Topic.

Edit: To Taser My Bro. Toneart! AGAIN!



[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]

compassion with thought

Toneart, I for one will miss your contributions to any subject, as I see in above post

It's good to get as many to contribute to the discussion as possible.. the more data (pick your own def) on a subject the greater chance of making significant in roads to change..

I also do not like seeing the change that LE has been forced to make over the past 40-50 years.. they used to be a lot more at ease, as they could be.. it was much different

Folks back in the 40's and 50's when I grew up, were not in the same mind set as today... people did not call Police "cop's", pig's, spit on them, and all the rest.. we used to have a crossing guard on Orange Ave. and Del Amo Blvd. in N. Long Beach.. and we used to give him cupcakes and cookies on the way to school and back.. I was in the third grade. Yeah, I know it's not like that everywhere, but it was like this where I grew up, and I'm sticking to it....

I see police officers in Mission Viejo Orange County CA, they are young, buffed out, wearing body armor, and they are very well armed.. they appear to me to be ex military.. as they have the approach and carry themselves as one would if you have been in the military and/or combat... and they are very serious.. smiles are hard to come by.. it's all business (training to stay alive)

I appreciate their present in the community, but at the same time.. question in my mind is there really a need for a "police force" as "heavy duty" as these folks..

I think that perhaps there would not be, if it were not for things happening like the "Northridge shoot out" a few years back. Where the "first responders" walked into a gun fight with way less firepower and protection than then the other guys.. it don't take to many of those to make you rethink "what the H**L is going on out there"

When I was young, guns were just not used by the "average Joe" most of the time... we fought with our fists, you might pick up a rock (I've got a scar on the back of my head) from a rock fight from the fourth grade.. but guns were not really used..

I also, would hope there was a way for the folks in LE to not have to have this terrible burden placed on them.. take a look at what it does to them: divorce, alcoholism, mental problems, and death.. when your under that kind of pressure everyday.. well, I think many might agree that it has a negative impact on the individual who are in LE.

I had a number of opportunities to go to work in LE, used to work with them through cooperative agreements while working with State of California and the EPA who I work for... I liked helping people as do most folks in LE, but in the their LE work, the "carnage" and "danger" faced and seen by these folks daily was not to my liking and I passed a number of times on offers to go to work.

Toneart, I think your contributions will be missed, as all thoughts on how one deals with confrontation is really needed in our world today

I'm not as good a writer as you, so I hope this "thought of mine" gets though.. play the guitar for the same... and I'm not good at that either, but I like it... as I do your thoughts

Regards

Wiley

(edited as I can't spell or write)


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Geez. Far as I know, Tony didn't die, or run of to a Tibetan monastery. He merely scooped up his marbles and went home. He'll be back!

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3563/toneartwithtinfoilha...

I am now the proud owner of a new tin foil hat, presented to me by David (elinvest18) by U2U. I hope this url appears correctly when I post it. Thank you, David! I have been needing one for a long time. My envy of gnukid was overwhelming.

Thank you, Wesson, Don Julio and Howard, for your comments. I hope I am not leaving anyone out. I am surprised that no women entered the discussion. I would have thought...well...maybe not.



Wesson- I was sent to a Boy's Ranch for four years, from age 8 through 11. It was rough. I was quite small for my age but I learned to fight with my fists (I became a pretty good street boxer later), and I also could run faster than any of them when my life depended on it. Oh, we certainly had plenty of rock throwing fights. They were serious fights but I survived. To this day, I am agile and stay in shape. I think I could do it again, if I needed to.
Well....maybe I had better back off of that statement...I do recall challenging a girlfriend to a foot race when I was in my forties. It didn't occur to me that I may not be as fast as I once was. Well, she beat me and than laughed at me. It was clear by her attitude towards me that my (love)life had depended on that footrace and *poof*...it had evaporated...a very chilly experience! Perhaps it was the first taste of humility this self-confident, but fragile ego had experienced.

I didn't say I was withdrawing from posting in The BajaNomad. I just said I had exhausted the subject and had said all I have to say. Beyond what I have said and what the LE guys have countered, I think it slips into an obsessive tedium. So, I am done!

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3563/toneartwithtinfoilha... I am now the proud owner of a new tin foil hat, presented to me by David (elinvest18) by U2U. I hope this url appears correctly when I post it. Thank you, David! I have been needing one for a long time. My envy of gnukid was overwhelming…

No, The NRA!...just kidding.

It was the Nevada County Arts Council, under the California Arts Council. We lost our funding and are now defunct.

Absolutely

TO ARROWHEAD

I'm not Nancy.

Donjulio Funding