BajaNomad

concrete colorant or stain

luckyman - 1-28-2010 at 07:38 AM

i'm looking for any info or leads on suppliers of concrete stain or powder color for stamped concrete...san jose to la paz would be good.
any info greatly appreciated.

shari - 1-28-2010 at 07:41 AM

we have used it in baja sur and it is available in most ferreterias...building supply stores so you shouldnt have a problem finding it and it comes in various colours.

Paulclark - 1-28-2010 at 07:56 AM

Also -- Home Depot carries a new line of concrete stain or you can do a Bomanite Chemical Stain which is available in La Paz from Enrique Rodriguez at cel. 612-140-4859

Diver - 1-28-2010 at 07:57 AM

If you are planning to stamp your concrete and color it while wet, you will need 2 products.
First a powdered color stain that is trowelled into the smooth surface, then a powdered color release before you stamp the impressions.

Another alternative is to stamp the concrete and let it cure.
Afterwards you can use an "acid stain" to color the concrete.

The final alternative is to color the concrete batch but the stain cost get's prohibitive.

Both methods can create some interesting colors.

.

luckyman - 1-28-2010 at 07:28 PM

thanks for the great replies; i've done one stamp/color job here using brickform powder release, stamps, and color, but i'm still a rookie at the process. i like the look, and can get the stamps rolled into my suitcase for the flight down, but finding anyone with the release agents in baja has been impossible on line or with a few phone calls.
the liquid sprayable release agent is petroleum based, so i'm guessing it's on the no fly list. the powder release comes in 5 gal buckets, 35 lb each, so i might be able to fly them down in the hold for an additional fee.
at ther very least, if i took only the stamps down, i could stamp now and stain later with material driven down sometime over the next couple of months....but i still need a release agent to keep the stamps from sticking...anybody got any ideas of what might work?

capitolkat - 1-29-2010 at 07:19 AM

Look at

www.kemiko.com

The product looks pretty great nd I've seen it in Baja Sur. let us know how it turns out-- Norm

monoloco - 1-29-2010 at 07:59 AM

If you use the colorant that you add to concrete make sure you do not add too much or the surface will flake off.

Diver - 1-29-2010 at 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
If you use the colorant that you add to concrete make sure you do not add too much or the surface will flake off.


That would be hard to do - working that much powder into the concrete surface.
We would typically use 3-4, 5 gallon buckets of hardener per 20x20 slab, applied (cast) and floated 3 times, then hard finished.
For stamped concrete we apply twice (heavier) then apply release powder and then stamp it; washing off the excess release with a pressure washer the next day.

We use Brickform or Absolute concrete stains and hardeners.

Woooosh - 1-29-2010 at 11:01 AM

I prefer the acid stain method. I did my whole San Diego house that way. Only problem is you can't be 100% sure of the final color as the color is dependent upon the mineral content of the concrete it is applied to. I found a spot no one would see and tested all the stains on that part first. Gorgeous results. The brown looked like leather and the blue blended into the ocean. I had a quote for $6K and did it all myself for less than $500.

I'd like to try concrete countertops next.

tripledigitken - 1-29-2010 at 11:23 AM

Woooosh,

I'm very interested in the acid stain method. Any way you could post some pictures of your project? What was the age of the concrete you stained?


Ken

Here are pictures from Woooosh of his stained floors.

Beautiful home Woooosh, wish you had higher res photos to see the floors better.





[Edited on 1-29-2010 by tripledigitken]

monoloco - 1-29-2010 at 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
If you use the colorant that you add to concrete make sure you do not add too much or the surface will flake off.


That would be hard to do - working that much powder into the concrete surface.
We would typically use 3-4, 5 gallon buckets of hardener per 20x20 slab, applied (cast) and floated 3 times, then hard finished.
For stamped concrete we apply twice (heavier) then apply release powder and then stamp it; washing off the excess release with a pressure washer the next day.

We use Brickform or Absolute concrete stains and hardeners.
I don't know, my wife kept saying " I want it more blue" so they kept adding color until there wasn't enough cement left in the mix.

Woooosh - 1-29-2010 at 02:40 PM

This was new construction. After the floors were poured we had to cover them with plywood while the rest of the house was finished. I did the floors last, after everyone was done and out. I had them covered because fresh concrete would absorb oil, paint, caulk or anything else spilled- blocking the stain from penetrating the concrete.

www.thestampstore.com

[Edited on 1-29-2010 by Woooosh]

Bob and Susan - 1-29-2010 at 03:32 PM

woshhhh

thats some BIG fish tank

is that where you eat the sushi?

do the fish get excited:lol:

Woooosh - 1-29-2010 at 04:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
woshhhh

thats some BIG fish tank

is that where you eat the sushi?

do the fish get excited:lol:


240 gallons. There was a snowflake moray who would eat the sushi out of your hand :) I got tired of going back up just to feed the fish and do the tank work. Once I finished the Baja house I put that one on the market. Sold it with the fish in the tank. I figured for what they paid- they deserved to get the fish in the tank too... :) (Obviously before the market turned south)

Sorry Ken. No better photos. I had to scan those and that's the best resolution I could get. The brown really looks like distressed leather up close and the color penetrates a quarter inch down or so (yes we chipped a spot and the color was still there). We finished the stain with a diamond-coat plastic, but many people use waxes instead. You need to use a rotary floor buffer/polisher a few times a year to bring it back to life.

[Edited on 2-13-2010 by Woooosh]

tripledigitken - 1-29-2010 at 05:02 PM

Here's two more Woooosh sent me.

From "Home and Garden" no less!:O:D

Nice work Amigo.




Woooosh - 1-29-2010 at 05:20 PM

The architect set that stuff up, not me. I got very tired of the gawkers and student tours after it won an AIA award (honor prize). They had it on HGTV Dream Homes as well- which is where the buyer saw it. All that stuff is great for some people, but it really wasn't my thing. We used the same architect for the baja house- but said no to the circus that wanted to follow us down. I have a face made for radio anyway... :rolleyes:

luckyman - 1-30-2010 at 07:29 AM

thanks for the positive replies, especially wooosh and diver...you two have quite a bit more experience with this type of project than i do.
i helped out on a colored stamp job around a swimming pool for a buddy a couple of years back, we troweled in colored hardener then stamped with a powdered release, it came out well. we used brickform products, which is what i have available here.
i'm flying out this morning with a couple of buckets of powdered release and stamps rolled up in my big duffel bag, hoping that they will check the sealed buckets as secondary baggage. a friend of my bro-in-law in eastern san diego county tells me they can use paint thinner as a stamp release, so that's plan 'b' if the powder doesn't make it on the plane. i'm planning on using some of the brickform water based stain to go over the whole thing at a later date when i can get it down there by ground.
whichever one of you guys knows matt in santa ysabel (my bro in law)...tell him the weather guessers are always wrong, you're gonna get rain mid-week, his sand job will get held up, and he'll be peeed that he didn't come down to help us pour.
gotta run, i've got those last minute jitters before heading to the airport...there must be something i'm forgetting.
i'll post info and some pics on the project in a week or so. thanks again for the help.

capt. mike - 1-30-2010 at 01:17 PM

my experience is adding color to the mix before laying down mud is superior.
it is best done at the batch plant if you're having it delivered by truck - but if you are mixing mud on site with small trailerable elec or gas powered drums you can still add powder in the proper ratios to get the integral color you want.
mix, lay, stamp, add release to top it and voila!

or acid etch it later to create other quartz like effects.

i think colored concrete beats all natural stone or ceramic tile floors and counters hands down - cheaper too.
you can do it vertically too if you're good. think shower stalls - yes you can.

try Cohills products in Phx AZ. they will consult and ship world wide. i have found no one who knows more about this industry.

good luck and do post results.

Concrete stain

C-Urchin - 1-31-2010 at 01:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
I prefer the acid stain method. I did my whole San Diego house that way. Only problem is you can't be 100% sure of the final color as the color is dependent upon the mineral content of the concrete it is applied to. I found a spot no one would see and tested all the stains on that part first. Gorgeous results. The brown looked like leather and the blue blended into the ocean. I had a quote for $6K and did it all myself for less than $500.

I'd like to try concrete countertops next.


I did the same in LA with a patio slab, came out beautiful and it will never peel off.

luckyman - 1-31-2010 at 08:26 PM

i made it down with a couple of buckets of antique tinted release after much wrangling with the TSA over whether it was able to go into the cargo hold of the plane or not. we wound up double wrapping the buckets it big plastic bags, which were shredded by the time the gorillas finished handling them.
good to be back in la ribera, the weather is great, no wind...makes me want to go fishing, but there's concrete to get done.
i'm going looking for base tint pigments tomorrow to add to the mud; several locals recommend broadcasting the dry tint into the wet mud after the screed board but before we hit it with the mag and then fresno, which probably doesn't give you a real consistent color but maybe an interesting effect, especially if you throw a couple of complimentary colors around.
i'm open for opinions on this idea if there are any.
thanks

Diver - 1-31-2010 at 08:48 PM

There are 2 different products.

"Color Hardener" gets cast on top as you have seen with stamp release.
It is floated and then troweled into the surface as you complete your finishing. You normally have to apply 2-3 times to get what can be really interesting colors and blends. The "hardener" will increase the surface concrete strength to 6-7,000 psi in addition to coloring.
If you are stamping, you float 2 full-coverage applications of hardener then your release and then stamp it. Use the release for your accent color.

"Concrete Stain" normally gets added to the batch mix and is a colorant only; no hardener. Integral stain can provide a more "even" color finish but takes a lot more colorant and does not "harden". Small batches in Baja also make it tough to get even color.

Personally, I chose color hardener almost every time.
(Except for indoor hydronic heat pours.)
Don't worry if the wet finished concrete still shows some gray tone, the color hardener will show up wonderfully when the slab cures and the release will color any "thin" areas.
.

[Edited on 2-1-2010 by Diver]

Mexitron - 2-1-2010 at 09:04 AM

Wooosh---I noticed you used the copper color outside, although it looks like its under an overhang. I've wanted to use Scofield's copper stain outside but they say not to---do you remember the brand you used? Years ago I used Scofield's outside but I think they must have changed the formulation.....

Pacifico - 2-1-2010 at 06:22 PM

This company makes a great product..

http://westcoat.com/#/surfacecoat-concretestain-acidbased-br...

It looks like the link isn't working......just copy and paste the whole thing.

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by Pacifico]

Woooosh - 2-1-2010 at 08:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Wooosh---I noticed you used the copper color outside, although it looks like its under an overhang. I've wanted to use Scofield's copper stain outside but they say not to---do you remember the brand you used? Years ago I used Scofield's outside but I think they must have changed the formulation.....


I had a gallon of blue in the garage. Not sure why I didn't use it all. Maybe I liked the sample test with the Kemiko Blue stain better. I am fairly sure the colors I used throught the house were Kemiko: Cola, Blue and Forest Green. They used to have a "sampler" (small bottles) of all the acid colors. That was helpful in doing color tests.

http://thestainstore.net/concrete/index.php?page=shop.browse...

The brown under the overhang is the same Cola color of the living area. There were exterior blinds protecting it from direct sun and weather. The blue on the deck was fully exposed to the elements. But why would a permanent acid etch color be a problem outdoors? We did use a UV blocking plastic coat mixed with xylene for deep penetration into cracks.

Try asking The Stamp Store. These guys are very nice (doug banister) and respond fast to e-mails. They even do one-day training seminars at locations all over the country. I'd just ask them your outdoor stain question. Let me know how it goes.

www.thestampstore.com

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by Woooosh]

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by Woooosh]

CIMG4431s.JPG - 35kB

luckyman - 2-3-2010 at 09:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
There are 2 different products.

"Color Hardener" gets cast on top as you have seen with stamp release.
It is floated and then troweled into the surface as you complete your finishing. You normally have to apply 2-3 times to get what can be really interesting colors and blends. The "hardener" will increase the surface concrete strength to 6-7,000 psi in addition to coloring.
If you are stamping, you float 2 full-coverage applications of hardener then your release and then stamp it. Use the release for your accent color.

"Concrete Stain" normally gets added to the batch mix and is a colorant only; no hardener. Integral stain can provide a more "even" color finish but takes a lot more colorant and does not "harden". Small batches in Baja also make it tough to get even color.

Personally, I chose color hardener almost every time.
(Except for indoor hydronic heat pours.)
Don't worry if the wet finished concrete still shows some gray tone, the color hardener will show up wonderfully when the slab cures and the release will color any "thin" areas.
.
well, today was pour day on the patio; we wound up coloring the mud with powder pigment in a light tan/yellow, then stamping with two colored releases (med. grey and nutmeg)...we pulled it off without a hitch, then a couple of hours after stamping the last section a BIG thunderstorm came in off the water...big drops and lightning as well. we saw it coming, and managed to tarp the greenest sections in hopes it wouldn't give us a moonscape texture job. we'll see. i was planning on washing it down in a day or two, so we'll see how much of the color stays where we wanted it to. ahh, work in mexico always has its challenges.
thanks for all the input, i'll post pics later if i can download the camera and remember how to upload to this site...isn't it thru photo bucket?
a day off tomorrow while the crew forms up some steps and the next pour sections...we'll try to pour again friday or saturday.
[Edited on 2-1-2010 by Diver]

done

luckyman - 2-11-2010 at 08:50 PM

thanks for all the great advice on the patio pour. we worked hard on it for a few days...it was really tough staying on task when there were dorado 3 miles offshore, but we stayed on it. naturally by the time we had a break in the work the wind had come up and didn't let up until after we left for home.
i'll try to attach a couple of pics (if i can remember how)...one more favor: i need to get a couple of buckets of sealer down to the la ribera area in the next month or so. i can have them at the tecate or tj crossing, or i can meet a rig along I-5 south of redding, ca at a moment's notice. will gladly kick in for gas.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv168/luckyman_bucket/baj...

luckyman - 2-11-2010 at 08:57 PM

another try:

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv168/luckyman_bucket/baj...

luckyman - 2-11-2010 at 08:59 PM

alright, i give up...how do you get the picture to appear in the text...all i get is the link.
i must be an idiot at this stuff!

JESSE - 2-12-2010 at 11:18 AM

Nice pad wooosh.

Mexitron - 2-12-2010 at 03:59 PM

Thanks for the answer Woosh! Sorry I replied so late, I'll check them out.

Is there a concrete stain or acid wash that can give me this color?

oladulce - 2-13-2010 at 08:43 AM

Hope you don't mind if I join your thread to ask a question Luckyman.

Have you guys with concrete experience ever worked with a product that can give me this sandy-tan color(s)? Our mason will make moulding like this out of concrete and use a styrofoam piece to shape it. I'd love to use this stone but transportation to my location would be $$$.

In the past he used grey concrete/black sand. Should he use white concrete and or white sand?


Mexitron - 2-13-2010 at 12:38 PM

oladulce--If I was to try to replicate that, and I'm no expert, I would use tan sand with some buff concrete color (powder or liquid) added to the mix. You'll have to experiment on ratios. Some white cement, maybe 1:1 with regular grey cement might get the hue right although in my little experience with white cement it tends to lighten up too much. Add some various size rocks or, if you're really daring, some slightly chunky(somewhat mixed with clods of cement still in it) to see if you can get the blotchy color of the real Canterra stone. Maybe even try real dirt clods as well. Make sure to vibrate the form once the cement is in it---not too much because a few air bubbles will add interest to the texture, but enough that you dont't still see raw mix. You can do this by using a mallet and banging on the form a little or perhaps an orbital sander on the form will do the job. When the molding has cured you can wash away the excess cement and probably get the pitted texture. Once its cured---a week to a month--if you want some deeper color you can experiment with a walnut or amber etching acid---and you'll probably want to dilute those before you spray them on---especially the walnut---something like 5:1. you can always add more color this way but you can't ever undo it. There are acrylic stains which I haven't had any experience with but appear to have a much better color selection. I'm not sure about there longevity in exposed situations though. Finally, to bring out the color even more you can put on a sealer, though Canterra stone isn't a real shiny material. My best advice is to experiment--you'll get it right by trying different strategies. Hope that helps.

wessongroup - 2-13-2010 at 01:30 PM

really like with what is happening with the concrete too.. a really very good finish material.. that has been undersold for a long while... thanks for sharing

Mexitron - 2-13-2010 at 03:49 PM

oladulce--here's a pizza oven I just built in the backyard---the final coat was made with the tan sand, grey portland cement, a little lime, and powdered color at a rate of about 2 pounds per 90 pound bag of cement. The counter walls are buff, the counter tops are terra cotta, and the oven is a golden color...we're waiting for it all to cure, then we might put an acid stain on it. The buff color seems closest to your Canterra stone.


wessongroup - 2-13-2010 at 04:09 PM

Mexitron... too cool.. great job

oladulce - 2-14-2010 at 02:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
---the final coat was made with the tan sand, grey portland cement, a little lime, and powdered color at a rate of about 2 pounds per 90 pound bag of cement. The counter walls are buff, the counter tops are terra cotta, and the oven is a golden color...we're waiting for it all to cure, then we might put an acid stain on it. The buff color seems closest to your Canterra stone.


Mexitron, your BBQ area looks great with your stonework. Your "buff" color looks like a good base to start with and I like the idea of using an integral product. What brand did you work with?

Brickform that Diver spoke of has some nice natural tan-ish colors and Capt Mike's Cohills looks interesting.

My only acid staining experience was using a Scofield product on these concrete top cap moldings and scuppers. There were no natural browns or tan color options to choose from and this wasn't quite what I was shooting for, but oh well. It was good practice.





The black sand they use here for most concrete mixes come from a local riverbed, white sand has to be "imported" from La Paz (about 200 miles). I'll have to get a current price quote to compare.

You mentioned diluting a stain to apply over a base color- an acid stain?? What would you dilute it with?

My only other concrete coloring experience was the floors in our casita. I showed the mason a picture of a tan/buff color floor that I liked and he came back from the Comex paint store with baggies of black, yellow, and red powders -very basic plain colors. I was skeptical, but we played around with the powders and he mixed test batches in to white sand and white cement and came up with a nice smooth tan color.

But the day of the floor pour evolved in to the night of the pour when the concrete wasn't drying as they had expected and the resulting color was quite a bit different than the samples we'd made. The poor mason told my husband he tossed and turned all night worrying that I'd be very disappointed. Turns out, I loved it and to this day think it's the coolest.



But there's no way we could re-create the effect if we tried it again. Which is what I've learned about coloring concrete, floors especially- results can be unpredictable for a novice which is a little scary considering the permanency of the medium. If you hated your results, you're looking at them for a very long time.

wessongroup - 2-14-2010 at 07:42 AM

oladulce ... you GO girl!!

Mexitron - 2-14-2010 at 11:48 AM

oladulce--yah, you understand the unpredictable nature of concrete coloring!

On applying a stain--I was thinking of diluting an acid stain (like Scofield, Kemiko, Brickforn, etc.) with just water, so five parts water to one part stain...and then apply it with a small spray bottle. And another thing to remember is that you may want to wet the surface before spraying the stain--it helps meld the color in without seeing a spray pattern.

luckyman - 2-14-2010 at 03:37 PM

no problem oladulce, this concrete coloring/finishing topic is really interesting, and i've been pleased with the variety of discussion.
you mentioned brickform products; that's the brand i used on our patio as a colored release powder to add accent color to the underlying tan colored concrete. we tinted the concrete, one mixer load at a time, with the powdered colorant available at most places in baja.
because of airline constraints on checked items, i didn't ever attempt to bring a liquid product...but i checked out a newer brickform water based stain that is applied over cured concrete. it is supposedly more predictable than the acid stains, which they manufacture as well. the local concrete guy i consulted with on the job likes the new water based stain. as with all colorants, they suggest sealing the surface to 'lock in' the color against premature fading in the sun.
good luck, there are some really cool concrete jobs posted...makes me want to add on to my patio here this summer.