BajaNomad - Semarnat denies permit to paredones amarillos mine

Semarnat denies permit to paredones amarillos mine

JESSE - 2-24-2010 at 09:14 PM

Told you so. :rolleyes:

Woooosh - 2-25-2010 at 09:27 AM

I've had some bumps getting things through Semarnat. The paperwork gets stamped and forwarded to so many places it's hard to tell where the decisions are being made and how long it would take. It always takes longer than you think it will.

This one turned out perfect and just in time- although a few Nomads probably exhausted their Blood Pressure meds... Another win for the people and environment. Encouraging really.

flyfishinPam - 2-25-2010 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Told you so. :rolleyes:

was this due to a public hearing?

elizabeth - 2-25-2010 at 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Told you so. :rolleyes:

This is definitely one of the few times "I told you so" sounds good!

JESSE - 2-25-2010 at 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Told you so. :rolleyes:

was this due to a public hearing?

None of these types of projects, ever pass during election times. They cost votes and no political party wants to lose votes going into very difficult and close elections.

Bajahowodd - 2-25-2010 at 03:59 PM

But might that mean that the only thing that happened was a politically convenient delay?

comitan - 2-25-2010 at 04:43 PM

I don't hear the Fat Lady singing. :rolleyes:

JESSE - 2-25-2010 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
But might that mean that the only thing that happened was a politically convenient delay?

This wasn't a delay, it was definately a no.

Bajahowodd - 2-25-2010 at 05:09 PM

I hope you are right, amigo.

wessongroup - 2-25-2010 at 05:17 PM

With that pile of crap they had.... don't think so.. what did it work out to ... 2,000 wedding rings out of the hole deal .....

gnukid - 2-25-2010 at 05:28 PM

So Awesome!

arrowhead - 2-25-2010 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
So Awesome!

Yeah, woohoo! They just killed 100 direct jobs and a direct payroll of $2.5 million per year. Five times that with the multiplyer effect. Those mestizos down there can now sit down next to a pristine rock and eat tree bark for dinner, safe in the thought that the environment is protected from a state-of-the-art gold mining operation.

JESSE - 2-25-2010 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
So Awesome!

Your ignorance is almost funny. The direct jobs that you claim where lost, where never going to be given to locals, they where going to be given to people hired in southern Mexico, wich will in turn need more housing, water, roads, etc etc and increase crime.

2.5 million a year for jobs for non Baja residents, a strain in water resources, and the environmental damage?

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by JESSE]

monoloco - 2-25-2010 at 06:37 PM

You don't know what you are talking about A-head. I have talked to many people in the affected area and have not met one who was in favor of the mine. The area is the watershed for a large population and should not be contaminated with mine waste.

gnukid - 2-25-2010 at 06:43 PM

Ahead = The Joker

wessongroup - 2-25-2010 at 06:57 PM

Can always be counted on for sage advise... not

arrowhead - 2-25-2010 at 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Your ignorance is almost funny. The direct jobs that you claim where lost, where never going to be given to locals, they where going to be given to people hired in southern Mexico, wich will in turn need more housing, water, roads, etc etc and increase crime.

And you know this precisely how, Jesse? Did you get your information from the same people who supply the Global Warming data? Maybe you got it from cousin Chuy, who heard it at bar while talking to the presdent of the company?

I'l bet I'm the only person here who actually read the technical report on the mine, all 13 Mbtyes of it:

http://www.vistagold.com/technical_reports/Paredones%20Amari...

Here's a few tidbits from the 172 page report to chew on:

Quote:

Socio Economical Characteristics

The Project in the municipality of La Paz, B.C.S. is welcomed by the government and local population, since it is a potential generator of employment in an outlying zone and may contribute to the improvement of services and infrastructures in communities near the Project.

The study of the Socio Economical characteristics supplies the context of development that the population has today in the Project zone, their expectations and perception of the Project.

It is important to develop an organized plan of activities to create synergy between authorities, society and the mining company in such a way that it will meet these expectations, and have a sustainable development in the region, committed with the care of the environment and the
development of the community programs.

Have you actually seen the environmental impact study and the mitigation procedures?

Quote:

17.7.2 Environmental Impact Assessment

In 1997, an EIA was conducted, identifying key activities during each stage of the Project (site preparation, construction, operation and maintenance and closure). This assessment also considered key elements of the environment (climate, geology, soil, hydrology, flora, fauna,
socio-economic and landscape environmental factors), and its interactions that could result in environmental impacts.

The most significant environmental impacts identified for the Project were selected according to the criteria included in the LGEEPA, Article 3, Fraction IX This article says: “the impact resulting from the action of man or nature that causes alterations to the ecosystems and its natural resources, or in the human health, hindering the existence and development of man and other living beings, and the continuity of its natural processes.”

The identified significant environmental impacts were used to find the actions needed to prevent, mitigate, and/or compensate those specific negative impacts.

The results of the EIA are; twenty (20) significant environmental impacts that can be prevented, mitigated, and/or compensated with the execution of fourteen (14) proposed groups of actions; five (5) for prevention, eight (8) for mitigation and one (1) for compensation.

OK, lets see a show of hands. How many have read the technical report PRIOR to my posting the link here? Paul? Did you actually read it?

arrowhead - 2-25-2010 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Can always be counted on for sage advise... not

Elmer Fudd woke up from his afternoon nap. Did you see that wascally wabbit?

monoloco - 2-25-2010 at 08:51 PM

If you think that a few hundred hectares carved out of a biosphere reserve for a cyanide leach pit goldmine won't cause a significant impact, think about what happens when a storm like hurricane Juliette comes along and dumps 20 inches of rain in 24 hours and overflows their containment ponds.

wessongroup - 2-25-2010 at 09:07 PM

Always count on you know who ... to be right on time... and not on target... :lol:

trash trash and trash just can't keep it way ..... :lol:

after thought... was going to say, mono... you just take the fun out of a thread...

keep it up... elmer likes it.. :lol:

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

Also, Ahead you know my position on the report.. all ready said it was created by the Company's paid Environmental Consultant, Tetra Tech. Who created a sub entity to do this study, which was paid by Tetra Tech, who was in fact paid by the Developing entity.. at least that is the way I remember it... start to dig back through all that ... if I'm off base on who hit John I will stand corrected... but, that was what I read.. as to the Environmental Site Assessment or EIS or ESI or call it what you want.. they did !!

As to the over long term impact.. get we get boom town for what 3-5 years... thats in the report too... then what happens... you get a ghost town.. that is four to five times what was to start and now they have to take care of this extra.. cuz you got to have more... hell, lets put in a subdivision or two to take care of all those extra folks.. who will leave in 3-5 years .. leaving vacant house..

Yeah, I say some real "cracker jack" planning here... hell bet Trump is chasing this team down.. not

This was such a piece crap even the Mexican's wouldn't touch... they were getting screwed for 2,000 wedding rings.. :lol:

And Jesse is absolutely correct also.. he was on target with the political aspect of the project, again just a super job by who ever that stupid mining Company was...

I'm very glad to see, that the Mexican people care enough for the land and their people to say no to a fast buck!!

We don't see it enough... and I liked the way it made me feel, and I'm not a Mexican, I'm a lowly gringo in their Country, and I appreciate their fine hospitality and just super way of living life the way it should .... With dignity, honor and pride..

Congratulations.... Mexico.. to me that is good news, in a place where folks don't have enough food lots of time.. no nothing.... and this... just super!!

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

arrowhead - 2-25-2010 at 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
If you think that a few hundred hectares carved out of a biosphere reserve for a cyanide leach pit goldmine won't cause a significant impact, think about what happens when a storm like hurricane Juliette comes along and dumps 20 inches of rain in 24 hours and overflows their containment ponds.

Did you know the leach pit and containment ponds are designed to contain 2 times the volume of water from a 100-year storm. Of course, you don't know that because you have not read the technical report. You just want to tell us what it is all about from memory and stories you heard in the bar. By the way, 2 times a 100-year storm is far more than any hurricane has ever dropped in a 24-hour period.

Did you look at the topo of the mine site? It is in a natural canyon area and it is easy to contain the waste water. Oh, of course you don't know that, you have not read the technical report.

By the way, did you know the mine plan is to build a de-sal plant on the West coast and pipe in water to the project? They are not using any of the ground water and when the project is over, Mexico gets the de-sal plant. Oh, silly me, of course you don't now that. You have not read the technical report. Do you think that part of Baja could use a de-sal plant?

Did you know that at the end of the life of the mine, which is 10-years and not the 5-years Elmer Fudd said it was, the remediation plan is to return the area back to it's natural state? That means filling in the pit and replanting the vegetation. Oh, of course you don't know that, you have not read the technical report.

arrowhead - 2-25-2010 at 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Also, Ahead you know my position on the report.. all ready said it was created by the Company's paid Environmental Consultant, Tetra Tech.

News flash for Elmer Fudd. All environmental consultants are paid by somebody. Did you happen to think they work for free?

JESSE - 2-25-2010 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

I got my information from the experience of watching dozens of companies do the same. If your naive enough to pay attention to "technical reports" and actually believe they are going to do things by the book in Mexico, then your more ignorant than what i tought.

News Release on 2-20

CaboRon - 2-26-2010 at 01:25 AM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=44324

monoloco - 2-26-2010 at 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

I have read the technical report and after going to the site and seeing it for myself I don't believe that there is any way to not significantly impact the environment with a project of this scale. There are a lot of mining projects in the western U.S. that are still awaiting environmental remediation because the companies that caused the damage no longer exist, just because a company says they will restore the landscape doesn't mean that they actually will.

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Also, Ahead you know my position on the report.. all ready said it was created by the Company's paid Environmental Consultant, Tetra Tech.

News flash for Elmer Fudd. All environmental consultants are paid by somebody. Did you happen to think they work for free?

News flash for Ahead

First, it was not created by Tetra Tech, rather by an enity which Tetra Tech created to keep any liability off their collective skirts.. , Second, I guess that why lenders will not accept just ANY consultants report, as will any Regualtory Agency with jurisdiction over same... the work products orgin is as important was the data contained therein if not more important..

You know like: who, what, when, where and why... please.. such trash..

If you were an Environmental Consultant, you would be like these folks.. pi**ing in the wind.. as that is all they are going to get from some folks that know a pile of crap when they see it...

You know, perhaps you can lobby for this group... as it would appear from this preformance they can use the help... :lol:

Thanks for the post.. I needed that.. :lol:

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

arrowhead - 2-26-2010 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I got my information from the experience of watching dozens of companies do the same.

Jesus, Jesse. You should have just not answered. All you did is confirm what I already posted. You have no facts to support what you said.

And monoloco, at the end of the report are the CV's of the experts who prepared it. Since you say you have visited the site and concluded it won't work, kindly post your CV so we can understand your expertise to make such a statement. And I noted that you have now confirmed that your objections is based upon what happened at other projects in the past, not the report, nor does it consider the changes in technology.

And finally for Elmer Fudd. Funding for a mine project depends on obtaining all the government permits to operate the project. It does not depend on an environmental report. The government relies upon the environmental report to determine if it will issue the permits. The junior clerk at the abarrotes on the corner would know that.

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 08:31 AM

Arrowhead... you are hopeless ...

The report was in fact dismissed by the reviewing agency... and why was that... follow the link

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=44324

Then get back.. and yeah, I see they are amending their application and/or report.. oh, boy wonder why :lol:

Had some concerns over the project, but now, I don't..

The Mexican Government seems very capable of managing their own Resources and Health and Environmental Issues.. as shown in this example REAL time..

Again, perhaps you should send these remarks and/or thoughts to the Agency or to the Consulting firm, if you are so confident in your findings and/or position.. maybe just the Consulting firm, looks like Agency is ok to me...

Hello... hello.. please... you are too funny.. :lol:

monoloco - 2-26-2010 at 08:57 AM

A-Head would probably like to see some open pit mines in Yosemite.

tripledigitken - 2-26-2010 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
.........

The Mexican Government seems very capable of managing their own Resources and Health and Environmental Issues.. as shown in this example REAL time......

Really?

Oil Industry's lack of reinvestment and upgrades, fisheries management, primary sewer outfalls into ocean (probably within 5 miles of your home)

They have a long way to go I'm afraid.

Ken

aldosalato - 2-26-2010 at 09:31 AM

Vistagold is a small firm. It will never have the capital necessary to develop such a big project....... if big Mining corp (Mexican or foreign) buy into the project it could be different both at political and financial level. Till then no chance.

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 09:36 AM

Didn't say they were perfect, rather capable .... They have the "structure" in place.. As given by this example as it related to a proposed mining operation and the request for a permit, based on a dubious ESA (which was my first take) and the subsequent dismissal of same.

Does the natural resources of any country need to be protected along with the Human Health and the Environment?. Why yes, of course and I would submit that is why Mexico does have agencies for same.

Years ago, worked with the equivalent of the EPA in Mexico... found them capable and well trained.. They assisted us in an investigation which lead to the arrest and conviction of someone who was doing something wrong!!!

And that was over 30+ years ago... to me... seems they have only improved... as do the highways.. and which I do not see as much trash along as the California Highways..

I do appreciate your point, there is always more that can be done on this front, among others.. But, at least in the case the outcome was based on a careful review of documentation submitted in the permitting process and was deemed insufficient by Agency... good job in "this" permit review!!

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by wessongroup]

josie - 2-26-2010 at 10:30 AM

Arrowhead: I am not trying to pick a fight here but the more I read your posts the less I am able to figure you out. You claim to be married into a Latino family and that you really love Mexico but just think the entire country is corrupt which is why you seem to love to dump on it so much. Now you want us to believe that Mexico is going to do exactly what it says it will do to make sure the mining site is cleaned up when the project is completed.

I am confused - which Mexico is it that you are talking about here? :?:

JESSE - 2-26-2010 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I got my information from the experience of watching dozens of companies do the same.

Jesus, Jesse. You should have just not answered. All you did is confirm what I already posted. You have no facts to support what you said.

Just go down to Cabo and inmerse yourself in facts. Rampant crime, people from southern mexico everywhere, lack of infraestructure, pollution, etc etc

That reality is far bigger than any cheeseball document that mining company might produce.

arrowhead - 2-26-2010 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by josie
Arrowhead: I am not trying to pick a fight here but the more I read your posts the less I am able to figure you out. You claim to be married into a Latino family and that you really love Mexico but just think the entire country is corrupt which is why you seem to love to dump on it so much. Now you want us to believe that Mexico is going to do exactly what it says it will do to make sure the mining site is cleaned up when the project is completed.

Well, I remember saying that my wife speaks Spanish. And I remember saying that corruption runs deep in Mexico. I don't remember saying that last part, about love. I've been fairly consistent here in saying the Mexico is what it is, and that people should not come here and lie about it for their own personal reasons, or to rationalize their decisions. I also said that people should not try to build up Mexico by knocking down the US. All that proves is that they don't have a cogent argument to make.

As to your last part, where you say you don't believe Mexico will see that the site is cleaned up, now I'm confused. Are you saying that you believe Mexico cannot follow through, whereas I think it can? Who is the one that is down on Mexico here?

[Edited on 2-26-2010 by arrowhead]

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 11:36 AM

Hey Arrowhead.. just woke up from a nap... waiting for a new refrigator to be delivered.. hope the food doesn't spoil...

2/26/10

Your right my comments were based on the "news" release about the "foreword thinking" statement from Vista Gold, not on the "report".. But, since you asked.. It is a “Feasibility” report to start with.

Thanks for the link…

Review of: Feasibility Study Update
NI 43-101 Technical Report

Vista Gold

Site: Paredones Amarillos Gold Project
Baja Sur, Mexico

Report Date: September 1, 2009

Contributors:
Frederick Earnest, BS Mining, SME Bachelor in Mining
J. Enrique Pablo Dorantes, BS Bachelor of Science
Nick Michael, BS Mining, MBA BS mining MBA

Endorsed by QP’s:
David A. Kidd, P.E. professional engineer Deepak Malhotra, Ph.D. in what
Steven Ristorcelli, P. Geo. Professional engineer
Terry Braun, P.E. . Professional engineer
Thomas L. Dyer, P.E. . Professional engineer

SRK Consulting (U.S.), Inc.
175 West Jefferson Avenue, Suite 3000
Lakewood, CO 80235

Mine Development Associates
210 South Rock Boulevard
Reno, NV 89502

Resource Development Inc.
11475 West I-70 Frontage Road North
Wheat Ridge, CO 80033

Golder Associates Inc.
4730 North Oracle Road, Suite 210
Tucson, AZ 8570

This Technical Report has been reviewed by the Qualified Persons from the original Feasibility Study. Paredones Amarillos is owned by Vista through its wholly owned Mexican subsidiary, Minera Paredones Amarillos SA de CV
(MPA).

17.7 Environmental Considerations and Permitting ................................................ 17-20
17.7.1 Environmental Baseline Study .......................................................... 17-20
17.7.2 Environmental Impact Assessment ................................................... 17-22
17.7.3 Environmental Monitoring and Management ................................... 17-23
17.7.4 Environmental Management Program ............................................... 17-24
17.7.5 Health and Safety Management Plan ................................................ 17-25
17.7.6 Social Development Plan .................................................................. 17-25
17.7.7 Closure ............................................................................................... 17-26

Analysis of the data estimate storm events for the Arroyo de La Junta to
be 280m3/s for 20 years, 380m3/s for 50 years and 480m3/s for 100 years. (Where is this supported by factual studies)?

Will the ground water if now or anytime in the future becomes negatively impacted by said operations will the developing entity accept liability to cleaned to baseline?

Socio Economical Characteristics
The Project in the municipality of La Paz, B.C.S. is welcomed by the government and local population, since it is a potential generator of employment in an outlying zone and may contribute to the improvement of services and infrastructures in communities near the Project.

Table 17.7.2.1 just does not give a full picture of all aspect of Human Health and the Environmental impacts of proposed operations.

17.7.6 Social Development Plan
There is a small community near the mine site named Valle Perdido, which is the first
community to be favorably impacted by the mine project.

After a very brief review of the document you were so kind to supply a link to:

Would also like to learn your source for rain fall both 100 year and Cyclones which impact the area historically, currently and in the future...

Please share with us how you arrived at the rainfall amounts you have posted...

The de-sal plant is a gift.. perhaps.. but what problems may be associated with the plant being present as opposed to being absent. Seem the folks that live there are really quite content with their town and it's current environment

The time line you suggest is the least conservative, I would prefer to go with the more conservative number of 3-5 years as stated in their "foreword looking statement"

Did not see in the report that the "pit" would be back filled.. On which page of the can that information be found?

As what I see is “Best Management Practices” not restoration to the sites natural conditions.

Also it would appear that hazardous wastes generated appear to also be a gift to the town.. Will be buried at the site in the “West Pit”

“The ultimate open pit area is approximately 58.7ha. The pit will be comprised of two distinct
pits (East and West) which will be scheduled to allow a significant amount of waste from the
East Pit to be placed in the West Pit.”

Not some thing I would hang my hat on… looks to me like a good call by the Mexican Government..

My conclusion:

I would not accept a report from individuals whose qualifications are based on Industry Developed Definitions and/or standards "CIM Standing Committee on Reserve Definitions". Nor would I accept an "update" on a "Feasibility Study" under NI 43-101 standards

arrowhead - 2-26-2010 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Just go down to Cabo and inmerse yourself in facts. Rampant crime, people from southern mexico everywhere, lack of infraestructure, pollution, etc etc

WHOA!!! Did you clear that comment with longlegs and comitan and the rest down there? How can a Mexican have such a radically different view than our Gringo experts here?

NO SOUP FOR YOU!
:rolleyes:

JESSE - 2-26-2010 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Just go down to Cabo and inmerse yourself in facts. Rampant crime, people from southern mexico everywhere, lack of infraestructure, pollution, etc etc

WHOA!!! Did you clear that comment with longlegs and comitan and the rest down there? How can a Mexican have such a radically different view than our Gringo experts here?

NO SOUP FOR YOU!
:rolleyes:

Me das hueva.

arrowhead - 2-26-2010 at 11:46 AM

Elmer, you ask great questions. Please send them to the company and report back to us on your results. We are all sitting on the edge of our chair waiting for your report.

Oh, and the rainfall figures are in the report, in mm. You missed it.

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 12:03 PM

Elmer here.. that you Ahead... want some more...

Please ..... You were doing the "ramp up" on this, not me... wouldn't want to muddy the waters for you.. and the questions I asked was of your reading of the subject report which you indicated that you had in fact read.

As stated, there are no "factual" numbers in the report.. other than their best guesses.. projections etc..

Surprised you didn't see that GLARING fact.. As you read the entire report and deemed it acceptable, unless I have misunderstood your previous posting on the subject site and the proposed development of a Open Pit Gold Mine in BCS

Please be advise... I will be taking a nap for a bit.. but, rest assured... I will take time to answer all of your concerns.. on this issue and any others.. as you appear to need assistance in focusing on things.. clearly, objectively, without other issues clouding your view as your "view" seems a bit .... subjective

arrowhead - 2-26-2010 at 12:15 PM

wessongroup - 2-26-2010 at 12:28 PM

Got it... enjoy..