BajaNomad

Consulate offices order by Obama

nobaddays - 3-14-2010 at 12:10 PM

On Sunday, the U.S. State Department ordered the evacuation of dependents of U.S. personnel in six U.S. consulates in Mexico. The consulate offices are in Tijuana, Baja California, Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Nuevo Laredo and Matamoros, Tamaulipas and Monterrey, Nuevo Leon.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/mexic...

[Edited on 02/24/2007 by nobaddays]

bajabass - 3-14-2010 at 12:15 PM

I am suprised the families are still there. :?: I tell my wife to roll up the windows and lock the doors for the 15 minutes you spend in TJ headed south or north. Juarez, :o

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 12:16 PM

Why do we have a consulate in that toilet called Juarez anyway?
Reminds me...tomorrow is Benito Juarez day here. It's a real holiday...banks closed etc.

Pescador - 3-14-2010 at 12:16 PM

Wow, that he would have acted that fast at Fort Hood.

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Why do we have a consulate in that toilet called Juarez anyway?
Reminds me...tomorrow is Benito Juarez day here. It's a real holiday...banks closed etc.



Because, just like TJ/ San Diego, there is an immense amount of cross border traffic and commerce between Juarez and El Paso.

Dave - 3-14-2010 at 12:26 PM

Can't find any details. Anyone have access to the reports of the killings?

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Can't find any details. Anyone have access to the reports of the killings?


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/14/3-with-ties-u...

ELINVESTIG8R - 3-14-2010 at 12:32 PM

If this was a Narco murder of Americans I think they just really screwed-the-pooch. They will now be facing an even greater U.S. involvement against them. Hey, it could have been Jihadist Terrorists too. Who knows. I hope they catch the perpetrators soon so we can know what faction was involved!

Could They Be Related?

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 12:37 PM

It's getting so weird. On the same day, 13 bodies, some of them headless turn up in and around Acapulco. This, just as things were gearing up for spring break. Not to mention that with the Benito Juarez holiday, thousands of Mexicans usually head down to Acapulco from the DF.

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
If this was a Narco murder of Americans I think they just really screwed-the-pooch. They will now be facing an even greater U.S. involvement against them.


That is not my reading of the situation. Mexico is very protectionist and will not allow the US to take an active role in policing Mexico. It is political suicide for a Mexican president to invite US troops/police onto Mexican soil. The way I see it, the narcos targeted these people to force the US to back off, which it will, as it cannot protect its people in Mexico. Take a look at the State Dept. order to families of US consulate employees to beat it back to the US. I would expect even stronger travel warnings out shortly. This murder weakens the Mexican federal government, which is exactly what the cartels want. I think it was a well planned move.

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Mexico is very protectionist and will not allow the US to take an active role in policing Mexico. It is political suicide for a Mexican president to invite US troops/police onto Mexican soil.


We don't have to be on their soil. Just stay on ours at the border, the complete border, with heavy numbers. It's only a matter of time.

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2010 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Mexico is very protectionist and will not allow the US to take an active role in policing Mexico. It is political suicide for a Mexican president to invite US troops/police onto Mexican soil.


We don't have to be on their soil. Just stay on ours at the border, the complete border, with heavy numbers. It's only a matter of time.


the US continues to coddle the drug cartels by doing a half-assed job at intercepting drug shipments. if US would focus on intercepting drug shipments (instead of intercepting poor people trying to make a living), US would shut down the cartels.

and it is US appetite for drugs that provides income to cartels. US doesn't go after US drug abusers and drug distribution networks, so US citizens are source of problems in Mexico. it really is the US's fault.

BillP - 3-14-2010 at 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Can't find any details. Anyone have access to the reports of the killings?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/14/associated-consul...

BillP - 3-14-2010 at 01:21 PM

It's a shame not many will see this good article on Mexico.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/13/20100313ro...

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BillP
It's a shame not many will see this good article on Mexico.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/13/20100313ro...

Ya think? Nothing ticks off the USA more than stuff like this. Truly a towel-head act and a new low for Mexico which just moved one step closer to becoming a failed state. Mexico had the time and advance warnings in Juarez- they just couldn't pull it off.

Tourism in Baja just can't catch a break. Torres yesterday got the US Consulate in Tijuana to say Rosarito Beach is now safe- a lot of good that does now with that office evacuated too.

http://rosaritoenlanoticia.blogspot.com/2010/03/destaca-cons...

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 02:23 PM

Who would expect crime and drug-related violence in Rocky Point? It's basically isolated by having one way to and from the border.

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2010 at 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BillP
It's a shame not many will see this good article on Mexico.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/13/20100313ro...


what none of you understand is that once the country gets a bad rep, no one cares about a few safe towns that may be in the country -- mexico needs to squash the cartels/violence, or give up on tourism.
columbia was once a tourist destination, but drug cartel violence put an end to that.

CaboRon - 3-14-2010 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Can't find any details. Anyone have access to the reports of the killings?


CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico (Reuters) – Gunmen in the drug war-plagued Mexican city of Ciudad Juarez killed two Americans and a Mexican linked to the local U.S. consulate, an attack U.S. President Barack Obama said "outraged" him.

An American woman working at the consulate in Ciudad Juarez, just over the border from El Paso, Texas, and her U.S. husband were fatally shot by suspected drug gang hitmen in broad daylight on Saturday as they left a consulate social event, U.S. and Mexican officials told Reuters.

A Mexican man married to another consulate employee was killed around the same time in another part of the city after he and his wife left the same event, a U.S. official said.

The U.S. official, who asked not to be identified, said it was not clear if the victims had been specifically targeted, and the motive for the attacks was unknown.

Bloodshed has exploded in recent months in Ciudad Juarez as the head of the Juarez cartel, Vicente Carrillo Fuentes, fights off a bloody offensive by Mexico's No. 1 fugitive drug lord, Joaquin "Shorty" Guzman, at the worst hotspot of Mexico's three-year-old drug war.

"The president is deeply saddened and outraged by the news," said White House National Security Council spokesman Mike Hammer. He said Obama "shares in the outrage of the Mexican people at the murders of thousands in Ciudad Juarez and elsewhere in Mexico."

The U.S. State Department updated its warning on travel to Mexico to say it had authorized the departure of dependents of U.S. government personnel from consulates in Ciudad Juarez and five other northern border cities.

Nearly 19,000 people have been killed since President Felipe Calderon came to power in Mexico in late 2006 and launched a military assault on the country's powerful drug cartels, sparking a surge in violence that has alarmed Washington, foreign investors and tourists.

Most victims are rival traffickers and police, and to a lesser extent soldiers, local officials and bystanders. It is rare for drug gang hitmen to target foreigners.

"The Mexican authorities are determined to clarify what happened and bring those responsible to justice," the Mexican Foreign Ministry said of Saturday's attacks.

CHILDREN SURVIVE SHOOTING

The attack on the U.S. couple began with a car chase and ended in front of the main border crossing into El Paso, an area heavily patrolled by soldiers, local newspaper El Diario reported. The couple's baby girl survived the attack.

The Mexican spouse was murdered in an upscale neighborhood of the city when gunmen boxed in his car with other vehicles and shot him, according to a local newspaper photographer who soon arrived at the scene. His wife, who was following in a second car, was unhurt, but their two children were wounded.

Calderon was already scheduled to visit Ciudad Juarez on Tuesday, his third trip there in a month, as he scrambles to find a way to deal with a surge in killings that 8,000 troops and federal police on the ground have failed to curb.

The drug war has killed more than 4,600 people in the key manufacturing city in two years, and constant scenes of bullet-ridden vehicles and bodies lying in pools of blood have prompted many middle-class residents to flee.

Across Mexico, drug war violence is at its worst level ever, and many U.S. students have heeded warnings not to cross the border this year for their annual "spring break" vacation.

A burst of drug gang clashes killed at least 27 people -- including four who were beheaded -- this weekend in or near the Pacific resort of Acapulco, one of many popular with spring breakers.

At least 13 were killed on Saturday and at least 14 on Sunday, police said, including nine men who were killed in a shootout and a young woman shot as she drove by in a taxi.

Obama voiced his support for Calderon's drug war during a visit to Mexico last year, but the rising violence along the border with Mexico has become a big concern for Washington.

(Additional reporting by Caren Bohan; writing by Noel Randewich; editing by Catherine Bremer and Mohammad Zargham)
Related Searches:president felipe calderon ciudad juarez drug cartels mexico

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 03:48 PM

OK, here's my political analysis on this. When Obama was elected he was overwhelmingly looked on favorably, but there was still a nagging suspicion that he would be weak on terrorism. He lost a lot of political capital when the Ft. Hood massacre happened. He squandered away a lot more when the Christmas underwear bomber got through the screening process. Now released prisoners from Guantanamo are being recaptured in fights against Americans in the mid-East.

Even his closest political advisors are telling him if there is one more terror attack on American soil, he might was well just play basketball until his four years are up. This Juarez attack was close. The two Americans killed were chased in a car after leaving a consular event right up to the bridge to the US, which is swarming with Mexican police and soldiers. The onther person killed, the Mexican husband of a consular employee, was boxed-in by two cars and murdered in front of his wife who was following in another car. The two events were almost simultaneous in different parts of the city. This was a planned terror attack on Americans.

I think there is going to be a lot of political fallout on this.

Funded by the Tea Party People?

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 03:56 PM

Just can't embrace such a tectonic shift over this event. Unless, one wishes to buy in to a sinister conspiracy that could be traced all the way back to 9/11 and those who think it was either orchestrated by Bush, or tacitly approved. Terrorists abound throughout the world. Most of them are true believers in a cause, most of which, the average US citizen would disavow. In my opinion, the Mexican Drug war will likely not be connected to the jihadists half a world away. If they do, they ain't very smart.

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2010 at 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
OK, here's my political analysis on this. When Obama was elected he was overwhelmingly looked on favorably, but there was still a nagging suspicion that he would be weak on terrorism. He lost a lot of political capital when the Ft. Hood massacre happened. He squandered away a lot more when the Christmas underwear bomber got through the screening process.


***************
none of these reflected badly on obama. the ft hood thing reflected badly on army command. the underwear bomber was a dufus, and he did not cause any harm, and the only people with egg on their face are career intel people who were shown to be bumbling dolts.

[Edited on 3-15-2010 by BajaNomad]

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
If this was a Narco murder of Americans I think they just really screwed-the-pooch. They will now be facing an even greater U.S. involvement against them.


That is not my reading of the situation. Mexico is very protectionist and will not allow the US to take an active role in policing Mexico. It is political suicide for a Mexican president to invite US troops/police onto Mexican soil. The way I see it, the narcos targeted these people to force the US to back off, which it will, as it cannot protect its people in Mexico. Take a look at the State Dept. order to families of US consulate employees to beat it back to the US. I would expect even stronger travel warnings out shortly. This murder weakens the Mexican federal government, which is exactly what the cartels want. I think it was a well planned move.


I agree. Even my own family NOB called to show concern and ask if we were OK and "staying behind"- as if ALL Americans were ordered out of the country.

One thing the USA can do is lock-down the border and maybe isolate Mexico diplomatically. Obama will not play nicey-nice anymore. There will be pressure to move troops and secure the border. They just added six predator drones to the border. No more pussy-footing after this. Obama showed he was serious by closing ALL the US consulates- not just the ones in the combat zones. He really didn't need to do that- he was making his first stand.

We all know Mexico will just continue to blame the USA for this because of it's drug consumption. Never mind that Mexico could enforce its northern border with the same vigor it enforces the southern one. Even before this event Obama voiced human rights concerns about how the Mexican military was handling this. Calderon is impotent and so is the next president. Everything at every level is flawed by institutionalized corruption. Macho Mexico has lived by the sword, and may indeed fall on it and die.

So what is next, besides the obvious that Michelle Obama will likely cancel her highly-touted April trip to Mexico City? And what is up with these loco-narcos who love their Mexico, but destroy it? Last week they stopped all the media coverage of them by killing those journalists. Now this. If they love Mexico and their families- they have a funny way of showing it. Oh yeah... they are 30-something guys with no education, future, hope or families... so what do they care.

JESSE - 3-14-2010 at 04:12 PM

The fact is, crime in northern baja is down 70 to 80%. Whats happening in Juarez is a totally different thing.

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 04:15 PM

So, are you saying this was an anomaly? Or is Juarez akin to Switzerland?

JESSE - 3-14-2010 at 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
So, are you saying this was an anomaly? Or is Juarez akin to Switzerland?


I am saying Juarez is very far away from here, and the players involved in that war have nothing to do with this area, i am as concerned about Juarez as i am about crimes in Chiapas. Baja has entered a period of calm, many people where complaining about the violence here all the time, and now that things have calmed down thanks to the efforst and lives of many people, now they are looking else.

I am not minimizing the crimes there, but they really don't have much to do with us here.

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 04:34 PM

The problem as I see it, is that the sporadic episodes of violence seem to migrate. I posted today about more than a dozen bodies found in and around Acapulco, some of which were beheaded. At the same time, hotel occupancy in Cancun hit 85% in February. My concern is if these nasty cartel guys are nimble enough and resourceful enough to be purposely trying to extinguish the tourist business in order to strong arm the government.

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The fact is, crime in northern baja is down 70 to 80%. Whats happening in Juarez is a totally different thing.


You thought La Paz was safe and didn't know El Teo was living near you. Right? Maybe you mean REPORTED crimes? But who wastes their time reporting crime any more?

My neighbor had their US plated car stolen last night at the "Las Brisas" hotel. The went to file a report but the police would not take it because the cop smelled alcohol on his breath. What did that have to do with his car being stolen. Why even bother trying to report a crime? Yesterday Rosarito had armed men in fake uniforms robbing sores on the main blvd. Crime is down from what number? It could be down 95% and still not be safe. Stats mean nothing anymore.

Rosarito looks like a war zone today. Camouflage-uniformed Marines everywhere. Why are they here today if less crime? Getting ready for the Benito Juarez parade tomorrow? Giving the handful of Spring Breakers here a cool photo op to e-mail home?

Just as I predicted, a new Mexico Travel Alert

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 04:47 PM

Quote:
http://www.enewspf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view...

"U.S. State Department Issues Travel Warning for Mexico

Sunday, 14 March 2010 15:14 Press Release Latest National News

Washington, D.C.--(ENEWSPF)--March 14, 2010. The Department of State has issued this Travel Warning to inform U.S. citizens traveling to and living in Mexico of concerns about the security situation in Mexico, and that it has authorized the departure of the dependents of U.S. government personnel from U.S. consulates in the Northern Mexican border cities of Tijuana, Nogales, Ciudad Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, Monterrey and Matamoros until April 12. Family members of US Government personnel assigned to other areas of Mexico outside the Mexican border states are not affected by this departure measure. This Travel Warning supercedes that of February 22, 2010, and announces the authorized departure of some dependents and updates security incidents.

While millions of U.S. citizens safely visit Mexico each year (including tens of thousands who cross the land border daily for study, tourism or business and nearly one million U.S. citizens who live in Mexico), violence in the country has increased. It is imperative that U.S. citizens understand the risks in Mexico, how best to avoid dangerous situations, and who to contact if victimized. Common-sense precautions such as visiting only legitimate business and tourist areas during daylight hours, and avoiding areas where prostitution and drug dealing might occur, can help ensure that travel to Mexico is safe and enjoyable.

Recent violent attacks have prompted the U.S. Embassy to urge U.S. citizens to delay unnecessary travel to parts of Durango, Coahuila and Chihuahua states(see details below) and advise U.S. citizens residing or traveling in those areas to exercise extreme caution. Drug cartels and associated criminal elements have retaliated violently against individuals who speak out against them or whom they otherwise view as a threat to their organizations. These attacks include the abduction and murder of two resident U.S. citizens in Chihuahua.

Violence Along the U.S. - Mexico Border

Mexican drug cartels are engaged in violent conflict - both among themselves and with Mexican security services - for control of narcotics trafficking routes along the U.S.-Mexico border. To combat violence, the government of Mexico has deployed military troops throughout the country. U.S. citizens should cooperate fully with official checkpoints when traveling on Mexican highways.

Some recent confrontations between Mexican authorities and drug cartel members have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades. Large firefights have taken place in towns and cities across Mexico, but occur mostly in northern Mexico, including Ciudad Juarez, Tijuana, Chihuahua City, Nogales, Matamoros, Reynosa and Monterrey. During some of these incidents, U.S. citizens have been trapped and temporarily prevented from leaving the area. The U.S. Mission in Mexico currently restricts its U.S. government employees’ travel within the state of Durango, the northwest quadrant of the state of Chihuahua and an area southeast of Ciudad Juarez, and all parts of the state of Coahuila south of Mexican Highways 25 and 22 and the Alamos River. This restriction was implemented in light of a recent increase in assaults, murders, and kidnappings in those three states.

The situation in northern Mexico remains fluid; the location and timing of future armed engagements cannot be predicted. Recently, the cities of Durango and Gomez Palacio in the state of Durango, and the area known as “La Laguna” in the state of Coahuila, which includes the city of Torreon, experienced sharp increases in violence. In late 2009 and early 2010, four visiting U.S. citizens were murdered in Gomez Palacio, Durango. These and several other unsolved murders in the state of Durango have caused particular concern.

A number of areas along the border continue to experience a rapid growth in crime. Robberies, homicides, petty thefts, and carjackings have all increased over the last year across Mexico, with notable spikes in Chihuahua, Sinaloa, and northern Baja California. Ciudad Juarez, Tijuana and Nogales are among the cities that have experienced public shootouts during daylight hours in shopping centers and other public venues. Criminals have followed and harassed U.S. citizens traveling in their vehicles in border areas including Nuevo Laredo, Matamoros, and Tijuana. Travelers on the highways between Monterrey and other parts of Mexico to the United States (notably through Nuevo Laredo and Matamoros) have been targeted for robbery and violence and have also inadvertently been caught in incidents of gunfire between criminals and Mexican law enforcement. Such incidents are more likely to occur at night but may occur at any time.

The situation in the state of Chihuahua, specifically Ciudad Juarez, is of special concern. The U.S. Consulate General recommends that American citizens defer non-essential travel to the Guadalupe Bravo area southeast of Ciudad Juarez and to the northwest quarter of the state of Chihuahua including the city of Nuevo Casas Grandes and surrounding communities. From the United States, these areas are often reached through the Columbus, NM, and Fabens and Fort Hanc-ck, TX, ports of entry. In both areas, American citizens have been victims of drug-related violence.

Mexican authorities report that more than 2,600 people were killed in Ciudad Juarez in 2009. Additionally, this city of 1.3 million people experienced more than 16,000 car thefts and 1,900 carjackings in 2009. U.S. citizens should pay close attention to their surroundings while traveling in Ciudad Juarez, avoid isolated locations during late night and early morning hours, and remain alert to news reports. Visa and other service seekers visiting the Consulate are encouraged to make arrangements to pay for those services using a non-cash method.

U.S. citizens are urged to be alert to safety and security concerns when visiting the border region. Criminals are armed with a wide array of sophisticated weapons. In some cases, assailants have worn full or partial police or military uniforms and have used vehicles that resemble police vehicles. While most crime victims are Mexican citizens, the uncertain security situation poses serious risks for U.S. citizens as well. U.S. citizen victims of crime in Mexico are urged to contact the consular section of the nearest U.S. consulate or Embassy for advice and assistance. Contact information is provided at the end of this message.

Crime and Violence Throughout Mexico

U.S. citizens traveling throughout Mexico should exercise caution in unfamiliar areas and be aware of their surroundings at all times. Bystanders have been injured or killed in violent attacks in cities across the country, demonstrating the heightened risk of violence in public places. In recent years, dozens of U.S. citizens living in Mexico have been kidnapped and most of their cases remain unsolved. U.S. citizens who believe they are being targeted for kidnapping or other crimes should notify Mexican law enforcement officials and the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City or the nearest U.S. consulate as soon as possible. Any U.S. visitor who suspects they are a target should consider returning to the United States immediately. U.S. citizens should be aware that many cases of violent crime are never resolved by Mexican law enforcement, and the U.S. government has no authority to investigate crimes committed in Mexico.

U.S. citizens should make every attempt to travel on main roads during daylight hours, particularly the toll ("cuota") roads, which generally are more secure. When warranted, the U.S. Embassy and consulates advise their employees as well as private U.S. citizens to avoid certain areas, abstain from driving on certain roads because of dangerous conditions or criminal activity, or recommend driving during daylight hours only. When this happens, the Embassy or the affected consulate will alert the local U.S. citizen Warden network and post the information on their respective websites, indicating the nature of the concern and the expected time period for which the restriction will remain in place.

U.S. citizen visitors are encouraged to stay in the well-known tourist areas. Travelers should leave their itinerary with a friend or family member not traveling with them, avoid traveling alone, and check with their cellular phone service providers prior to departure to confirm that their cell phone is capable of roaming on GSM or 3G international networks. Do not display expensive-looking jewelry, large amounts of money, or other valuable items. Travelers to remote or isolated hunting or fishing venues should be aware of their distance from appropriate medical, law enforcement, and consular services in an emergency situation."

Hook - 3-14-2010 at 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The fact is, crime in northern baja is down 70 to 80%. Whats happening in Juarez is a totally different thing.


You thought La Paz was safe and didn't know El Teo was living near you. Right? Maybe you mean REPORTED crimes? But who wastes their time reporting crime any more?



EXACTLY! Why bother referring to crime statistics in Mexico? They bear no resemblance to the level of actual crime on the streets.

[Edited on 3-15-2010 by Hook]

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
*************


Dear Goat. I just want to let you know that you can disagree with somebody's opinion without calling them names.

I'm just saying, you know, in case the moderator would like to enforce the rules.

[Edited on 3-15-2010 by BajaNomad]

Softball, Strangely

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 04:53 PM

Actually, the US could have issued a much sterner warning, such as saying just don't go. To a certain extent, I think Mexico dodged a bullet this time.

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
EXACTLY! Why bother referring to crime statistics in Mexico? They bear no isemblance to the level of actual crime on the streets.


Hook, you're my new best friend.

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Actually, the US could have issued a much sterner warning, such as saying just don't go. To a certain extent, I think Mexico dodged a bullet this time.


The average person reading that alert would interpret it as saying, "Just don't go."

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
**************


Dear Goat. I just want to let you know that you can disagree with somebody's opinion without calling them names.

I'm just saying, you know, in case the moderator would like to enforce the rules.


I'm thinking that you two, along with Davidk and DianaT should go to couples' counseling.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 3-15-2010 by BajaNomad]

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm thinking that you two, along with Davidk and DianaT should go to couples' counseling.:lol::lol::lol::lol:


Only if Josie sits on my lap.
:rolleyes:

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 05:04 PM

Maybe, just maybe, BajaGringo can arrange it! Just sayin'.:biggrin:

JESSE - 3-14-2010 at 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The fact is, crime in northern baja is down 70 to 80%. Whats happening in Juarez is a totally different thing.


You thought La Paz was safe and didn't know El Teo was living near you. Right? Maybe you mean REPORTED crimes? But who wastes their time reporting crime any more?

My neighbor had their US plated car stolen last night at the "Las Brisas" hotel. The went to file a report but the police would not take it because the cop smelled alcohol on his breath. What did that have to do with his car being stolen. Why even bother trying to report a crime? Yesterday Rosarito had armed men in fake uniforms robbing sores on the main blvd. Crime is down from what number? It could be down 95% and still not be safe. Stats mean nothing anymore.

Rosarito looks like a war zone today. Camouflage-uniformed Marines everywhere. Why are they here today if less crime? Getting ready for the Benito Juarez parade tomorrow? Giving the handful of Spring Breakers here a cool photo op to e-mail home?


yadda, yadda, yadda!!! look, if you want to, stay home, fortunatelly, theres still plenty of smart people who actually look at facts and not personal opinions or media hype.

I was one of the ones that condemned the violence up north when it was happening, but now that its down, i am also being fair and expressing my support for those that worked to get it down. But seems that those that where just bashing Mexico out of personal problems, won't admit things got better no matter what. Its not fun anymore for them.

JESSE - 3-14-2010 at 05:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The problem as I see it, is that the sporadic episodes of violence seem to migrate. I posted today about more than a dozen bodies found in and around Acapulco, some of which were beheaded. At the same time, hotel occupancy in Cancun hit 85% in February. My concern is if these nasty cartel guys are nimble enough and resourceful enough to be purposely trying to extinguish the tourist business in order to strong arm the government.


This is not a James Bond movie, the cartels don't operate that way, they go to war only when their competitors attack them. In this case, whats happening in Acapulco is the result of the death this past December of Arturo Beltran Leyva, his cartel is disintegrating and the two sides are fighting for control of their turf.

The cartels don't give a rats ass if the location is Acapulco or Torreon.

Bajahowodd - 3-14-2010 at 05:17 PM

I appreciate your opinion. Thanks.

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Actually, the US could have issued a much sterner warning, such as saying just don't go. To a certain extent, I think Mexico dodged a bullet this time.


Well- maybe just grazed. If the attack had happened at Consulate, instead of at an off-site party, it would be headline news. The narcos know just how far to push...kill them, but not at the "office."

And this is only a 30 day advisory, it is not mandatory. It's just to make a point. The USA is ticked-off, but what does all Mexico combined have left to throw at Juarez to fix it? The official US reply is telling Calderon "take our help now, or else". As you mentioned- they could have said "don't go"

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The fact is, crime in northern baja is down 70 to 80%. Whats happening in Juarez is a totally different thing.


You thought La Paz was safe and didn't know El Teo was living near you. Right? Maybe you mean REPORTED crimes? But who wastes their time reporting crime any more?

My neighbor had their US plated car stolen last night at the "Las Brisas" hotel. The went to file a report but the police would not take it because the cop smelled alcohol on his breath. What did that have to do with his car being stolen. Why even bother trying to report a crime? Yesterday Rosarito had armed men in fake uniforms robbing sores on the main blvd. Crime is down from what number? It could be down 95% and still not be safe. Stats mean nothing anymore.

Rosarito looks like a war zone today. Camouflage-uniformed Marines everywhere. Why are they here today if less crime? Getting ready for the Benito Juarez parade tomorrow? Giving the handful of Spring Breakers here a cool photo op to e-mail home?


yadda, yadda, yadda!!! look, if you want to, stay home, fortunatelly, theres still plenty of smart people who actually look at facts and not personal opinions or media hype.

I was one of the ones that condemned the violence up north when it was happening, but now that its down, i am also being fair and expressing my support for those that worked to get it down. But seems that those that where just bashing Mexico out of personal problems, won't admit things got better no matter what. Its not fun anymore for them.


dude, I'm just looking out my window. Don't get all defensive. It is what it is right now. (IMO the Narco crime is down and the tweeker crime is exploding- the stuck on stupid crimes like our TJ carjack attempt at noon). Don't tell me that carjack attempt against us (which we did not report) was because of a reduction in the TJ crime rate. In 2007, at the peak of the narco crime wave- when the police corruption scandal hit and the Military came to TJ, they took out the cameras on the via rapida that protected us tourists! Huh?!
We have a saying in the USA " Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

No one is happy about the security situation or the state of the local economy. My family has lost jobs. You think I want my house to be worthless too?

And hey- good work on being one of the good guys helping get the crime down. Open your eyes and seek out new solutions and tactics. What Mexico has inits aresenal and how they are using it certainly hasn't worked yet. Get the people involved. Suck-it-up and take the punches Mexico deserves for letting it come to this point in the first place.
:P:saint:

[Edited on 3-15-2010 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 06:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Suck-it-up and take the punches Mexico deserves for letting it come to this point in the first place.


Sooo....Can I assume surrender is no longer an option?

grmpb - 3-14-2010 at 06:44 PM

:mad:

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grmpb
:mad:



Meaning what?

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by grmpb
:mad:



Meaning what?


Don't give it too much thought. He didn't.

He's referring to previous post where he called me "French" for thinking I was talking about a Mexican surrender to the narcos. All I said was just what I said here- that Mexico isn't winning with current tactics- so pull back, regroup, get the correct arsenal in place and come back to fight and win the next time. Losing a battle isn't surrender, giving up on Mexico is. He's just about as stuck on stupid as Mexico- not for saying it once, but for taking a second shot with the same lame statement.

arrowhead - 3-14-2010 at 09:53 PM

Mexico isn't winning because they are not even attacking the problem. They run around rounding up narco dog soldiers with 6th grade educations all day long. The problem in Mexico is the corruption that permeates its society. Mexico needs to attack corruption. The cartels cannot exist or operate without making a lot of government people look the other way. Mexico needs to clean itself out from top to bottom. From the president to the janitor at the alcaldia. The army too.

This is like the Viet Nam War. All the bad guys were commanding from North Viet Nam and staging in Laos and Cambodia and we couldn't go attack any of those places. So our guys just got chopped up slugging it out with Charlie. If you are going to fight a war, fight to win. Mexico is fighting for a draw.

DENNIS - 3-14-2010 at 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Mexico needs to clean itself out from top to bottom. From the president to the janitor at the alcaldia. The army too.



If they're all dirty, who will do all the necessary cleaning?

Woooosh - 3-14-2010 at 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Mexico needs to clean itself out from top to bottom. From the president to the janitor at the alcaldia. The army too.



If they're all dirty, who will do all the necessary cleaning?


It can't be done. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". With the power comes money and people with power and money don't willingly give it up, ever.
Mexico is an oligarchy where the gov't controls everything and the people beg for things basically. They beg with money and it is not always a lot of money, just enough to make up for what they feel they aren't being paid. It's a little here and a little there, but it is everywhere and once you take the money you can't say no the next time. They're screwed unless the people revolt- and I don't see that ever happening. It always go back to a political party blame game and nothing changes. This is a country that was conquered and controlled by the Spanish and accepted the corruption from the getgo. It's not a country of revolutionaries like the USA who kicked the Brits out. Very different origins with very different outcomes. JMO of course.

Dave - 3-14-2010 at 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
If they're all dirty, who will do all the necessary cleaning?


As I see it, the problem is not that they're all dirty... it's that they're all related.

Mexico is a very insulated and entrenched society.

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
If they're all dirty, who will do all the necessary cleaning?


As I see it, the problem is not that they're all dirty... it's that they're all related.

Mexico is a very insulated and entrenched society.


Is that why so many Mexicans use their three or four names? An ancestry check for corruption? I thought it was just to make writing them checks they can cash at the bank harder. Every time I pay someone by check they have to drag out the voter ID to get every single name correct and in the right order so the bank will take it. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 3-15-2010 at 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Actually, the US could have issued a much sterner warning, such as saying just don't go. To a certain extent, I think Mexico dodged a bullet this time.


The average person reading that alert would interpret it as saying, "Just don't go."



Channel 2 LA last night's 11pm news. must be run by average people. Their story, while actually even failing to mention where the killings took place- only Mexico. They basically warned their viewers to stay away from Mexico; especially spring breakers. Nowhere near the nuance of the State Department warning.

DENNIS - 3-15-2010 at 12:10 PM

Well, we'll soon see if our president is a eunuch or a leader among men. Right now, he should be nationalizing the fence industry.

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Well, we'll soon see if our president is a eunuch or a leader among men. Right now, he should be nationalizing the fence industry.


Maybe Calderon can give Obama some fence building tips. Calderon's Army has done a very good job of making Mexico's southern border strong so Hondurans or anyone south of there couldn't enter and suck resources away from the Mexican people. Of course there are human rights violations, but it is a third world zone...

Bajahowodd - 3-15-2010 at 12:37 PM

Ah! But the mission was entirely different. Down South, the objective was to keep people OUT! Anyone think Calderon wants to keep his own people IN?

Bajahowodd - 3-15-2010 at 12:50 PM

And while I realize that there are some who take umbrage at the idea that the US does bear considerable blame, what exactly have the billions of dollars we've spent on the war on drugs actually accomplished? Maybe it puts the lie to the old adage about "if you throw enough money at a problem".

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And while I realize that there are some who take umbrage at the idea that the US does bear considerable blame, what exactly have the billions of dollars we've spent on the war on drugs actually accomplished? Maybe it puts the lie to the old adage about "if you throw enough money at a problem".

You talking any specific country... Columbia cocaine, Afghanistani Opium, Mexican Pot? I guess it really doesn't matter- it's money and lives lost that could have fed the poor, educated the illiterate and cured the sick. Good thing Gates and other philanthropists are taking up some of the slack.

gnukid - 3-15-2010 at 01:29 PM

Who has the

Motive,

Means and

Opportunity

...

to complete this attack.

Drug gang doesn't fit

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Who has the

Motive,

Means and

Opportunity

...

to complete this attack.

Drug gang doesn't fit


But that's what they are saying today anyway... The Los Aztecas gang.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100315/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_dru...

gnukid - 3-15-2010 at 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Who has the

Motive,

Means and

Opportunity

...

to complete this attack.

Drug gang doesn't fit


But that's what they are saying today anyway... The Los Aztecas gang.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100315/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_dru...


There is no evidence to make the connection noted in the article, therefore it's pure conjecture labeled reporting otherwise known as propaganda-it's tiresome.

Now put on your detective hats and ask yourself why reporters are cued to make the statement immediately following the incident with no investigation, no evidence, no suspects captured... Every message has a motivation, a desired interpretation as well...

Bajahowodd - 3-15-2010 at 03:11 PM

I have to weigh in on the side of the skeptics. Don't know much about the Mexican dude who was offed, but the US Consular employees' husband worked within the prison system in EL Paso. Could have been payback for something that happened NOB. No?

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 04:38 PM

Yeah. It could be anything. They aren't even sure the hit was on the correct white SUV leaving a child birthday party at the consulate. One lady killed was 4 months pregnant and another child was orphaned. Very sad.

Talk about living on the edge huh? The pregnant wife worked at the Juarez consulate and husband at an El Paso prison. Hope they had double life insurance...

Bajahowodd - 3-15-2010 at 04:49 PM

Really just have to wonder about the El Paso prison connection. Given the immense amount of cross border traffic, this could actually be a payback situation.

DENNIS - 3-15-2010 at 05:10 PM

Who cares about a connection? Anything as nebulous as a "connection" will only serve to dilute the severity of this issue.
Chamber Of Commerce types have insisted that US citizens are not targeted.
Seems we are. Why try to develop an acceptable reason for that.

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Who cares about a connection? Anything as nebulous as a "connection" will only serve to dilute the severity of this issue.
Chamber Of Commerce types have insisted that US citizens are not targeted.
Seems we are. Why try to develop an acceptable reason for that.

Do they say US Citizens aren't targets or US tourists aren't targets? I think Michele Obama's secret service detail will want the answer to that before she goes to Mexico City next month.

To answer your question Dennis- It really shouldn't matter, should it? Blaming the victim seems to be a sport down here. Mexico is so good at sports... well, not so much.

DENNIS - 3-15-2010 at 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Do they say US Citizens aren't targets or US tourists aren't targets?



What's the difference?

JESSE - 3-15-2010 at 07:17 PM

Ciudad Juarez has a very simple yet big problem. It is the traditional turf of the Juarez cartel, ran by the Carrillo Fuentes family who has held power there for decades. The violence in Juarez comes from the attempt by the Sinaloa cartel, ran by Joaquin "el chapo" Guzman, to take over the city and eliminate de local cartel.

The situation there is very serious, and not because the cartels have more power than the goverment, but because there seems to be a clear support by the federal goverment for the Sinaloa cartel in its quest to take over the city. This support has resulted in the death of thousands of people and does not seem to have an end. Heres a few questions i would like to have awnsered:

1.-Why are most cartels fighting for their servival just barely holding on to their turf, but the Sinaloa cartel is not only expanding, but doing it with very little effort?

2.-Why are the arrests of narcos in Juarez, almost always from the Juarez cartel?

3.-Isnt it easier to repel invaders back to where they came from, than to erradicate locals who know the area, have their families and lives there, and have all the local police, political, and social connections?


My theory is that the invading cartel is doing these killings, and using the federal goverment to create a very bad image of the locals. Killings like these are completely detrimental to the locals cause, trust me, they arent that stupid.

Finally, Felipe Calderon is one very stupid and incompetent president.

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 08:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Ciudad Juarez has a very simple yet big problem. It is the traditional turf of the Juarez cartel, ran by the Carrillo Fuentes family who has held power there for decades. The violence in Juarez comes from the attempt by the Sinaloa cartel, ran by Joaquin "el chapo" Guzman, to take over the city and eliminate de local cartel.

The situation there is very serious, and not because the cartels have more power than the goverment, but because there seems to be a clear support by the federal goverment for the Sinaloa cartel in its quest to take over the city. This support has resulted in the death of thousands of people and does not seem to have an end. Heres a few questions i would like to have awnsered:

1.-Why are most cartels fighting for their servival just barely holding on to their turf, but the Sinaloa cartel is not only expanding, but doing it with very little effort?

2.-Why are the arrests of narcos in Juarez, almost always from the Juarez cartel?

3.-Isnt it easier to repel invaders back to where they came from, than to erradicate locals who know the area, have their families and lives there, and have all the local police, political, and social connections?


My theory is that the invading cartel is doing these killings, and using the federal goverment to create a very bad image of the locals. Killings like these are completely detrimental to the locals cause, trust me, they arent that stupid.

Finally, Felipe Calderon is one very stupid and incompetent president.


Good points laid out well. Thanks Jesse. It become clearer now. So why the consulate hit? How do you expose and break the bond between the Government and their favored income providers... because they must be paying the gov't gazillions for that level of support.

JESSE - 3-15-2010 at 08:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Ciudad Juarez has a very simple yet big problem. It is the traditional turf of the Juarez cartel, ran by the Carrillo Fuentes family who has held power there for decades. The violence in Juarez comes from the attempt by the Sinaloa cartel, ran by Joaquin "el chapo" Guzman, to take over the city and eliminate de local cartel.

The situation there is very serious, and not because the cartels have more power than the goverment, but because there seems to be a clear support by the federal goverment for the Sinaloa cartel in its quest to take over the city. This support has resulted in the death of thousands of people and does not seem to have an end. Heres a few questions i would like to have awnsered:

1.-Why are most cartels fighting for their servival just barely holding on to their turf, but the Sinaloa cartel is not only expanding, but doing it with very little effort?

2.-Why are the arrests of narcos in Juarez, almost always from the Juarez cartel?

3.-Isnt it easier to repel invaders back to where they came from, than to erradicate locals who know the area, have their families and lives there, and have all the local police, political, and social connections?


My theory is that the invading cartel is doing these killings, and using the federal goverment to create a very bad image of the locals. Killings like these are completely detrimental to the locals cause, trust me, they arent that stupid.

Finally, Felipe Calderon is one very stupid and incompetent president.


Good points laid out well. Thanks Jesse. It become clearer now. So why the consulate hit? How do you expose and break the bond between the Government and their favored income providers... because they must be paying the gov't gazillions for that level of support.


In its core, this is a non declared war betwen the PRI and the PAN. I am not saying all Priistas and Panistas are aware of this, i am just saying a top handful of leaders in both parties, are waging this.

The PAN decided long ago to create one mega cartel that would awnser only to them, but they didn't understand the complexity and difficulty of doing this. Elections are coming up and they are running out of time.

In the end, the PRI will get back the presidency, and in a few years, restore back order.

Dave - 3-15-2010 at 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Who cares about a connection? Anything as nebulous as a "connection" will only serve to dilute the severity of this issue.
Chamber Of Commerce types have insisted that US citizens are not targeted.
Seems we are. Why try to develop an acceptable reason for that.

Do they say US Citizens aren't targets or US tourists aren't targets? I think Michele Obama's secret service detail will want the answer to that before she goes to Mexico City next month.

To answer your question Dennis- It really shouldn't matter, should it? Blaming the victim seems to be a sport down here. Mexico is so good at sports... well, not so much.


Victims should never be blamed...unless they have options. :rolleyes:

Woooosh - 3-15-2010 at 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Ciudad Juarez has a very simple yet big problem. It is the traditional turf of the Juarez cartel, ran by the Carrillo Fuentes family who has held power there for decades. The violence in Juarez comes from the attempt by the Sinaloa cartel, ran by Joaquin "el chapo" Guzman, to take over the city and eliminate de local cartel.

The situation there is very serious, and not because the cartels have more power than the goverment, but because there seems to be a clear support by the federal goverment for the Sinaloa cartel in its quest to take over the city. This support has resulted in the death of thousands of people and does not seem to have an end. Heres a few questions i would like to have awnsered:

1.-Why are most cartels fighting for their servival just barely holding on to their turf, but the Sinaloa cartel is not only expanding, but doing it with very little effort?

2.-Why are the arrests of narcos in Juarez, almost always from the Juarez cartel?

3.-Isnt it easier to repel invaders back to where they came from, than to erradicate locals who know the area, have their families and lives there, and have all the local police, political, and social connections?


My theory is that the invading cartel is doing these killings, and using the federal goverment to create a very bad image of the locals. Killings like these are completely detrimental to the locals cause, trust me, they arent that stupid.

Finally, Felipe Calderon is one very stupid and incompetent president.


Good points laid out well. Thanks Jesse. It become clearer now. So why the consulate hit? How do you expose and break the bond between the Government and their favored income providers... because they must be paying the gov't gazillions for that level of support.


In its core, this is a non declared war betwen the PRI and the PAN. I am not saying all Priistas and Panistas are aware of this, i am just saying a top handful of leaders in both parties, are waging this.

The PAN decided long ago to create one mega cartel that would awnser only to them, but they didn't understand the complexity and difficulty of doing this. Elections are coming up and they are running out of time.

In the end, the PRI will get back the presidency, and in a few years, restore back order.


The drug war is boiled down to internal politics? Yikes.

Next thing you'll tell me is is was a PAN/PRI thing that caused TJ to remove their $15 Million camera security system that protected the tourists, Tijuaneros and merchants.

[Edited on 3-16-2010 by Woooosh]

arrowhead - 3-17-2010 at 08:40 PM