BajaNomad - Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

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CortezBlue - 4-26-2010 at 04:54 PM

Well for those of you who are not aware of it, AZ's Gov just signed a bill that will go into affect in 90 days. Essentially the bill does the following:

1. Police are required to check the legality of any person, with probable cause, to check anyone's residency papers.

2. It is illegal for anyone who does not have legal paperwork to be in AZ.

3. Anyone who is in association with anyone that is not in AZ legally will be arrested. i.e., if you are a legal US citizen but a family member is not, you will both be arrested if you are in a car or home with this person.

4. AZ residents have the right to bring suit to any local, state or federal govt who is not upholding laws in regards to imigration.

I am very concerned about this bill becoming law in 90 days. Traveling in and out of Mexico 2 or 3 times a month, I hope that Mexican polica don't decide to create a similar law.

What are your thoughts for or against this??

UPDATE: After reading some of these comments, I do want to state that I am fiscally conservative republican. After reading some of the comments from my conservative nomads I think it is important to state that this is not a right v left situation.

[Edited on 4-27-2010 by CortezBlue]

DENNIS - 4-26-2010 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
What are your thoughts for or against this??

It's pretty tough, for sure, but the federal government won't do anything so maybe this will prompt them to do their job.
The very vocal activists won't settle for anything less than nothing so I have no sympathy for them.
In it's present form, I doubt the bill will be enacted.

David K - 4-26-2010 at 05:11 PM

So the Arizona police are actually going to be allowed to carry out enforcing the law? How unique! :light:

"If Mexico creates a similar law"? Don't they already arrest law breakers in Mexico?

Do you cross into Mexico without using a Port of Entry, ie. sneak across the desert?

Do you stay in Mexico without a visa or tourist card when it is required and come to Mexico without money that helps Mexico?

Do you utilize free emergency room service?

I bet the answer is NO...

If people don't break laws then they don't need to fear law enforcement... ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BORDER! :wow:

Bajahowodd - 4-26-2010 at 05:13 PM

First, your bullet points don't adequately cover the wording of the law, although I do appreciate that you did point out some important issues. Second, the net effect of this law could do great economic harm to AZ. Having been a citizen of this country for six decades, I absolutely cannot fathom how anyone should be required to carry proof of citizenship whenever they venture out of their home. That said, racial or ethnic profiling is the obvious result of such a law. I'm reminded of what African American friends have complained about for decades. There is an unwritten law that's known as DWB- driving while black. Police have used this excuse for years to pull over and hassle any African American on the basis of the fact that they are in neighborhood that has no blacks, or because they are driving a car that does not meet the stereotype the police officer has for blacks. This AZ law creates a slightly different scenario that I call BWB- breathing while brown. Ordinarily, I would be certain that the courts would strike this law down for being vague and unconstitutional. But, inasmuch as the SCOTUS currently contains a majority of hand-picked pro-Republican judges, I worry that the law may actually be upheld.

That said, there are folks organizing against this law that could create a situation that could do vast economic harm to AZ, by diverting tourists and potential residents.

However, at the end of the day, I must sadly consider that this is most probably an off-topic topic.

Bajahowodd - 4-26-2010 at 05:17 PM

David K doesn't have a real clue about this. It's obvious that as a light skinned, light haired white guy, he has no experience within the realm of being a minority. In fact, one of the primary reasons this bill passed in AZ, if because there is a dearth of minorities in the state. Maybe he should move there where he can blend in with all the other white guys. Perhaps he should go back to watching Glen Beck, where they can both find some form of release.

drzura - 4-26-2010 at 05:38 PM

I believe David K probably has a good idea of what illegal imagracion is doing to our beloved homeland. It's about time a state grew some balls and did what was right for the legal residents. All this political b.s. is a bunch of crap. A national id should be created and everyone should have to show it when pulled over/arrested by the cops...

Sur2baja - 4-26-2010 at 05:44 PM

We'll since you asked...here are some of my thoughts in no particular order of importance:
#1) I understand why Arizona did this and I empathize but I don't feel it will accomplish much.
#2) We need to seal the borders. Period.
#3) Nailing a small percentage of all illegals won't solve the problems that have been created. It's like balancing your checkbook. If we as a nation cant provide for services for a certain number of persons, then don't let more in. See #2.
#4) The majority (I believe) are just hard working individuals trying to earn a buck. If I could sneak across the border into Mexico and earn big bucks compared to my income here, I might take advantage of it. I don't blame the individuals for what our country has allowed to happen. Again, I believe the majority are good people.
#5) Our country has to get serious on policy, laws and enforcement. But after #2.
#6) It used to be you had to be sponsored and have a job to offer society something for services in return. We need to go back to that.
#7) As a public service employee (vague on purpose!!!), I see too many workers that turn into a bunch of drunks and vagrants. I think #6 could help with this. When your forced underground (or in shanty towns) because your illegal, what else is there to do? It's a shame.
#8) I have no idea how to do this logistically or practically, but amnesty for those currently here is not the right thing to do. MAybe if they could get sponsored with employment, then figure out how to allow those to stay???
#9) Our current system (lol) is not working. It's just a series of Band-Aids on a gushing wound.
#10) I have been vacationing in Mex since 72. I try to respect the culture, the people and their laws. As a guest and visitor, I don't expect a free ride with services. I am not a citizen of Mexico and I don't have RIGHT to much. It should be the same here.
#11) I'm a white guy and not a minority. I do have a degree in Mexican/American studies in an attempt to understand where certain individuals are coming from but that doesn't mean I can truly appreciate every fact of Hispanic life. But I try.
#12) This should not be about race, it's about a society not being able to sustain it's self as a society with the influx of outsiders of that society. The United States has a border. Mexico has a border. The two countries a run differently and while not touchy feely, the citizens of each country/society need to respect the others situation and laws.

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 05:51 PM

This is a stupid law. I have no problems with any sovereign nation or state enforcing its laws, but not at the expense of legal citizens or visitors. I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no reason what so ever, except for your skin color.

Arizona has the right to enforce its laws, even if i think they are racist and unfair to legal residents, citizens, and visitors. I also have the right not to purchase anything made in Arizona, and encourage Mexicans not to visit, or do business with them.

A Dearth ?

MrBillM - 4-26-2010 at 05:56 PM

HUH ? What's the Definition of a DEARTH ?

"In fact, one of the primary reasons this bill passed in AZ, if because there is a dearth of minorities in the state".

According to the 2000 census, Latino/Hispanics accounted for 25 percent of Arizona's population.

In fact, the Latino percentages in Phoenix were above those in Los Angeles.

I would expect that the 2010 numbers will show a HUGE increase over that without even counting the Illegals who are bringing such wonderful things to Phoenix as a Staggering Murder Rate. Now Number Eight Nationwide, aren't they ?

Bajahowodd - 4-26-2010 at 06:00 PM

Funny thing is that when employment was at a high, it was not such a major deal. I just have a problem with the idea that we can beat up on the people who we have tacitly allowed to mow our lawns, clean our houses, build our houses, cook our meals (anyone ever look into the kitchen of almost any restaurant from fast food to gourmet?), well..... The primary reason that an amnesty happened under Ronald Reagan was because people realized that they were receiving value. The whole wall thing is an abomination and reminiscent of Berlin and the Communists. Or perhaps what's happening between Israel and Palestine. It hurts me to the bone to think that on a border that has had centuries of mutual benefit, the US is acting more like a totalitarian country and erecting a fence/ wall between us and our most common neighbors. It may well seem like a stretch, but just think about the safety of US ex-pats and tourist should there be a populist backlash within Mexico.

David K - 4-26-2010 at 06:03 PM

The law is already on the books... this is about actually enforcing the law... doing the will of the people of Arizona.

No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. People from Mexico can be blonde or red heads with freckles, too.

Why is it some think that Mexicans are somewhat less able to immigrate here legally over ALL other nationalities... that only they should be allowed to break the law and do what-ever they wish in the U.S.? I believe Mexicans are just as able as ANY OTHER people to join our society and become Americans the very same way ALL others have, legally!

shari - 4-26-2010 at 06:10 PM

I am always amazed at the number of visitors to our village who are illegally in mexico...dont have tourist visas...and wonder what the percentage of tourists in baja are actually here illegally. People always have some lame excuse for not getting their visa usually based on the inconvenience of it. Most people have no idea how incredibly difficult and costly it is for a mexicano to legally get into the states....yet even though it's easy and cheap...many many tourists just dont bother getting a visa.

How do you think tourist would respond if police started stopping white people...ask to see their visa and arrest them if they didnt have it...along with everyone else in the car???? hmmmm...dont think it would go over too well. I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law.

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like.

Are they going to stop you because you might be a Polish illegal immigrant? off course not. But if i visit Arizona, any cop can pull me over for no reason except my race, and your claiming this is not racist?

I am not against the state enforcing its laws and targeting illegal immigrants, but why the hell should i or legal citizens feel like at any moment we can be pulled over by law enforcement even if we did not do anything wrong?

Would you like to live in a place where you can get pulled over at any time for nothing, except for the color of your skin? what if one day you forget your ID?

This is a racist law, targeting all people of brown color, regardless of their legal status.

DENNIS - 4-26-2010 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no reason what so ever, except for your skin color.

Perhaps I should better aquaint myself with the law, but I didn't think it was to work like that. I think the police will still need probable cause to detain and question anybody and skin color isn't probable cause.

monoloco - 4-26-2010 at 06:28 PM

I wonder if anybody knows just what it takes to get legal working papers these days? I know a couple of people who have had their applications in for over 5 years and haven't even had an interview. If all the farms and orchards followed the letter of the law most fruit and vegetables would rot in the fields, it is almost impossible for small and medium sized operations to hire legal workers and there are few Americans who will do the job. I believe that laws like the one in Az are just trying to drive illegals back into the shadows so they are easier to exploit.

David K - 4-26-2010 at 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like.

My friend, please show me the law... any law in the U.S. that says skin color can be used to pull you over. A law like that would have been eliminated back in the 60's when the Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act!

DENNIS - 4-26-2010 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law.

They don't need a law to retaliate.

I think this "law" is being misread by some here. I don't think it could be as N-zi-ish as some see it. I'm not defending it...I just don't think it's fully understood by everybody here.

Woooosh - 4-26-2010 at 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no reason what so ever, except for your skin color.

Of course you can- and you can see it and read about it. Pre-WWII. History repeats itself so we can see just how stuck on stupid we- as a people, are. "Your papers please?" :wow:

David K - 4-26-2010 at 06:39 PM

I wonder if people will refuse to stop at military checkpoints in Mexico now?

I mean, they are 'picking on us' just because we 'drive a car'... and 'some cars' can transport drugs or guns... but not everyone... it just isn't fair that the make us pull over and search us like we are illegals! WAAAAA! WAAAAA! :rolleyes:

In the U.S., we have DUI checkpoints set up at night... and we are stopped.. and checked to see if we are illegally driving (drunk or without a license)... They just pick on us... waaaaa waaaaa! :rolleyes:

(in both cases, Mexico and the U.S., if you are not breaking the law, you have NOTHING to fear... Same is true IF they did stop you because of your 'looks'! I know I have been stopped in Mexico by the police just because my car and I look like we are Americans!!!

oldlady - 4-26-2010 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
[quoteAre they going to stop you because you might be a Polish illegal immigrant? off course not. But if i visit Arizona, any cop can pull me over for no reason except my race, and your claiming this is not racist?

I am not against the state enforcing its laws and targeting illegal immigrants, but why the hell should i or legal citizens feel like at any moment we can be pulled over by law enforcement even if we did not do anything wrong?

Would you like to live in a place where you can get pulled over at any time for nothing, except for the color of your skin? what if one day you forget your ID?

This is a racist law, targeting all people of brown color, regardless of their legal status.

The answer, Jesse, to your first question is in the language of the law
and the answer is no, you can not be pulled over because of your race...on the other hand if you were, view it as a lottery ticket, more than enough lawyers would gladly represent you and you'd get quite the settlement in a potentially high profile case.
The Arizona law specifies "during lawful contact blah blah if there is reasonable suspicion." Lawful contact could be a traffic violation, it is the precipating event. Then the ensuing reasonable suspicion part (which has more "wiggle room") may take place.
If the training materials are well done, and the officers understand and implement the law with the goal of protecting all people who live peacefully in Arizona, the fears of racial discrimination and civil rights violations are overblown and the law might well survive the threatened court tests. The governor has to be diligent in managing her law enforcement to that level and still achieve the objective of protecting the residents from people who enter Arizona, frequently with the objective of criminal activity. Heretofore this has been the responsibility of the federal government and it has not fulfilled it. When that happens, the ultimate arbiter, the Supreme Court, tends to be sympatheic to a state's efforts. If Arizona is successful, there will be less crime, less murder, less human trafficking, less drug trafficking in Arizona. For people of every color that will be a good thing and it might have a positive impact on the other side of Arizona's border. I wish US politicians and media would focus more on the possibilities of a safer Arizona rather than fueling fears of racism.

I do live in a place, La Paz, where I have been pulled over because of the color of my skin. Although alleged, there was no traffic violation. Both the officer and I knew that. As for my papers, they have replaced my AMEX card. I don't leave home without them and have a suppy of photocopies in every purse and glove compartment.
Neither am I indignant about what others might call racism or about being asked for indentification. I chose to live here and it is what it is.

[Edited on 4-27-2010 by oldlady]

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I wonder if people will refuse to stop at military checkpoints in Mexico now?

I mean, they are 'picking on us' just because we 'drive a car'... and 'some cars' can transport drugs or guns... but not everyone... it just isn't fair that the make us pull over and search us like we are illegals! WAAAAA! WAAAAA! :rolleyes:

Bullchit! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special laws aimed at Americans only.

rts551 - 4-26-2010 at 06:51 PM

You really don't have a clue do you. There is no state law. The state legislature here just created one to empower the state and local Police by making it a state crime. . The only law currently on the books is a federal law enforceable by federal agents, Read this NEW state law. it goes way beyond the federal laws. Even our very conservative, white governor had problems with this one. read her statements as she signed it.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The law is already on the books... this is about actually enforcing the law... doing the will of the people of Arizona.

No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. People from Mexico can be blonde or red heads with freckles, too.

Why is it some think that Mexicans are somewhat less able to immigrate here legally over ALL other nationalities... that only they should be allowed to break the law and do what-ever they wish in the U.S.? I believe Mexicans are just as able as ANY OTHER people to join our society and become Americans the very same way ALL others have, legally!

Bajaboy - 4-26-2010 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law.

I agree with you Dennis. I think some people are taking this a bit far. My understanding is that if someone is stopped for a citation and/or breaking the law then the officer has the right and duty to verify the citizenship of that person.

As far as I can tell, the Immigration people at GN profile. They always ask me for my paperwork but don't seem to ask any of the dark skinned people in other cars.

rts551 - 4-26-2010 at 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law.

They can and do already question citizenship if stopped for some other infraction . What this new State law does is gives the police the right to check for paperwork based on probable cause without any other infraction. Thus the training they say is necessary. What constitutes probable cause to stop a potential illegal without using race as a criteria? Hah. going to be interesting. But this is the state that was the last to recognize MLK day, repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

Pescador - 4-26-2010 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

bullpuckey! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special laws aimed at Americans only.

Jesse, I hate to break it to you this way but there is discrimination on both sides of the border. I have been pulled over and hit up for a traffic violation for no other reason than the fact that I am a foreign tourist and a gringo. When they found out that I spoke Spanish like a native and knew exactly what was going on, we both got a laugh out of the situationa and they went on to make another traffic violation that had a better chance of paying off the "bite", which you yourself have addressed in the past. I know it exists on the south side of the border as well as the north side and I accept that it happens and the only thing that I can do to combat it is to be able to communicate and know what my rights and responsibilities are in any case.
You are right in your assumption that some people will be subject to more interrogation than normal with the passage of this law. One only has to look at how we treated Japanese-American citizens during to war to understand that. But to hide behind the issue that there may be some subtle discrimination occuring and therefore the Arizona people should do nothing is not the answer either. There has been a big problem created by allowing people who are not legal into the United States and then providing all kinds of services and support when those states are all going bankrupt is the best description of stupidity I have ever encountered. This issue obviously needs to be enforced at every level of government and this is only a step in that direction.
I have personally witnessed the eviction of several residents this year who were living in Mexico without the benefit of visas ( FM3 or FM2) and had been here for over a year or two. Immigration came in, no questions asked, and requested their papers and when they could not provide the papers they were told that they had two days to vacate or they would be arrested. Now they came under suspicion because they were White and had not left the country for over two years. So someone could make a good case for racial profiling here, but the real issue is that they chose not to follow the laws of Mexico and were subject to deportation because they did not have legal papers.
Where I live in Colorado had a large contingent of Vietnamese people who had come in illegaly. This situation came to the attention of the authorites who started checking papers and had to go to great lengths to get these people charged and deported. So someone who was looking at things from a different perspective could have certainly made the case that they only chose to identify this group of people because of their characteristics, but the core issue is that they were there illegally and it was the responsiblity of the law enforcement people to enforce the laws that existed. Did the fact that the people involved had language issues and looked a certain way come into play? Probably, but the real underlying issue was that they were in the country illegaly and when checked, could not produce the proper documents.
So, it is unfortunate that people are potentially treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but if you follow that to its logical conclusion then the illegal immigrants have set up a situation that has caused a lot of discriminination to happen to all Hispanic peoples. So if they would all just quietly pack up and leave, people could come to deal with all the legal Hispanic peoples in a spirit of love and caring and not even suspect that they might be there illegally.

rts551 - 4-26-2010 at 08:04 PM

Pescador. You just made the case to throw out the Arizona law. IT is illegal to discriminate in the US. Mexico does not have such a law that I am aware of.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

I have several american friends who are locals, and know that once you get Mexican licence plates, the cops bother you as much as the rest of us. Thus, making it very clear, that the reason you are being pulled over, is your foreign licence plates, not your race. Theres a lot of blond blue eyed Mexicans here in La Paz, and they never have a problem.

In Arizona, you can get pulled over simply because you "look" Mexican, and nothing else.

There is no comparison at all.

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

So, it is unfortunate that people are potentially treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but if you follow that to its logical conclusion then the illegal immigrants have set up a situation that has caused a lot of discriminination to happen to all Hispanic peoples.

Thanks for basically saying, yes, this is wrong, its racist, but since most illegals are Mexicans, the rights of legal law abiding citizens do not count, just because of their skin color.

Donjulio - 4-26-2010 at 09:22 PM

Sad!

Mexicorn - 4-26-2010 at 10:55 PM

Dear Doug
First of all let me thank you for permitting this issue into the forum. I believe both governments are watching this issue on your website very closely. So if that is the case I must refer to what I saw on that other website (Margie’s madness). A truck driver being put through the ringer because he didn’t have his birth certificate and his skin color (providing that was not a set up). I think that this is truly obscene! How many of us Americans live here in Baja that are going to take the heat due to this new law? It’s unmentionable! I’ve already had 100% Mexican friends ask me “What’s going on with that new law in AZ?” Fellow Nomads, I feel as though we are being led along this issue, since it has not been closely looked at since the Nixon administration. Thank you Doug for allowing this to addressed here in Nomads you are a noble man. So back to my original point what a better way to divide and concur us Americans through the United States ? Well I say No! to this new law which will end up being nothing more than the end to United States as we know it.
Que Feo?
Did Arnold have something to do with this I understand his Father was part of the Brown Shirts?
Word up-
El Mexicorn

JESSE - 4-26-2010 at 11:54 PM

Canadians, beware of Arizona Senate Bill 1070

By: Pulat Yunusov · April 22, 2010

How far can a government go to fight illegal migration? One government is flying right into uncharted territory if we are to judge by public reaction and media commentary. Arizona’s legislature is considering a bill that allows Arizona police to arrest people on a “reasonable suspicion” of their unlawful immigration status. Many groups ripped into the proposed law, and the head of the Los Angeles Roman Catholic archdiocese even compared it with “German N-zi and Russian Communist techniques.” Others defended the legislation citing high rates of illegal immigration in Arizona. The bill has several controversial provisions but let’s look closely at some detention powers it gives to the police. These changes can put Canadians lawfully travelling to Arizona at serious risk of detention.

Senate Bill 1070, also known as “Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act,” allows the police to verify immigration status of a person, with whom they have “lawfully” come into “contact,” if they have a “reasonable suspicion” that the person is an illegal alien. The obvious interpretation of this provision is that the police will detain the person while they verify the status. This is clear from both the context of this provision and the purpose of the statute. The bill as a whole aims to ramp up enforcement of federal immigration laws. Its purpose is “attrition through enforcement.” The legislature hardly expects the police to release suspected illegals while they verify their status. Besides, the statute gives the police powers to turn illegal aliens over to federal authorities. It is hardly reasonable to expect Arizona police to let suspected illegals go while they check on their status. So verification will mean detention or arrest.

Bill 1070 sets out the following detention scheme. First, there must be a lawful contact between you and the police. Second, the police must form a “reasonable suspicion” that you are an illegal alien. Third, they must make a “reasonable attempt” to determine your “immigration status.” Fourth, if they can’t determine your status on the spot, they will contact the federal government. As you have already seen, the last stage will likely involve your arrest until the police hears from the federal immigration authorities.

A “lawful contact” with the police happens pretty much any time an officer can perceive you with his or her senses. If the officer can hear you, see you, or smell you, that’s a lawful contact, so it doesn’t even have to be a stop or a question. But if you’re driving, there are plenty of lawful opportunities to pull you over. Also, asking you a question is not unlawful but it’s a contact. All of that may give the officer enough information to form a “reasonable suspicion” that you are an illegal alien.

What information is enough for that “reasonable suspicion” is the crux of the matter. The proposed law prohibits relying solely on “race, color or national origin … except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.” It means the police can rely on these factors as long as they are not the only factors. And what about accent? Dress? Religion? Apparently, these could be sole factors in forming a reasonable suspicion. Regardless of how the courts will interpret these provisions in the future, what matters is how front-line police officers will have the freedom to apply them. This article assumes you will be in the US lawfully, so if you are detained under this law, you will be eventually exonerated and released. But an extremely upsetting and arbitrary detention is bad enough so you should know the risks.

After detaining you on a “reasonable suspicion” of illegal status, the officer will make a “reasonable attempt” to determine your status. That’s also an interesting part. The bill lists IDs that will give you a presumption of lawful status on the spot. All of them (except maybe the “tribal” card) are US federal or state issued. Most Canadians, of course, do not require any US-issued ID like visas to travel to the US. So most Canadians in Arizona will have a Canadian passport or a Canadian province-issued enhanced driver’s license. That’s why most Canadians initially stopped under this bill will not be presumed to have lawful status in the US.

This will trigger a verification with the US immigration authorities and a potential longer, miserable detention of a Canadian who is in the US on a perfectly lawful basis. And all it takes is a “reasonable suspicion.”

Obviously, drafters of this proposed Arizona statute didn’t think about millions of Canadians who lawfully visit the US without any US-issued papers. They probably didn’t even know. And that’s why laws should be passed by or at least coordinated with people with relevant jurisdiction and expertise. Immigration should be the sole competence of the US Congress and the US federal executive. They would know about Canadians, but how long will random Canadians have to spend in Arizona custody before state authorities get hold of the feds, if this bill is passed? Perhaps, Foreign Affairs Canada should monitor this proposed legislation and issue an appropriate warning to Canadians if Arizona Senate Bill 1070 becomes law.

Cypress - 4-27-2010 at 04:33 AM

Passport? Visa? Identification?

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 05:08 AM

78% of the legal residents of AZ support SB 1070 according to some recent polls.
cops have to have probable cause BEFORE any action - no diff.
all they are doing is asking if one is an American or a tourist....
since no one at the fed level will step in and enforce SIMILAR laws on the books our state decided to do it themselves. the killing of a rancher was apparantly the last straw in the collective mind set of the state having to deal with the pressure of all these undocumented residents taxing our social resources and sending $$ out of the country to Mexico and elsewhere.

recently a Ranch Markets outlet was found to have 40 illegals working - all were let go.
the next day 300 out of work AMERICANS showed up to apply for those jobs.
nuff said...
it is simple - RESPECT our laws. if you want to come here DO IT according to the established protocol.

Wash DC won't act. the fools in charge there have no cajones. This state has exercised its rights for sovereignty.

Donjulio - 4-27-2010 at 07:27 AM

Does anyone that wants to tout their high and mighty, better than, entitled attitude really know what a Mexican has to go through to legally get into and work in the US? And...what their chances of being approved are?

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
In Arizona, you can get pulled over simply because you "look" Mexican, and nothing else.

That's what the open border activists tell you, Jesse. It isn't true although they seem to have you convinced.
It's back to the same old crap....Who runs the US. The Muslims? The La Raza actvists? The illegals? Calderon?
This whole issue is fast taking away any understanding and tolerance I have toward the undocumented workers and their supporters in the States.

dtutko1 - 4-27-2010 at 07:32 AM

The number I saw was that 30% of the arizona residents are hispanic and there legally. They will be subject to "Your papers please" by any police "w/good intentions or not. This law will never go into effect or pass any constitutional challange. On the other hand it may be the only way to keep the democrats in power.

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Does anyone that wants to tout their high and mighty, better than, entitled attitude really know what a Mexican has to go through to legally get into and work in the US? And...what their chances of being approved are?

It's a problem, for sure. Agriculture is a big user of migrant workers and stands to be affected by a shortage of help. That's too bad.
The farmers in America form a strong lobby and should take their clout to congress and fight for faster entry requirments. They should also start paying a living wage to entice the unemployed to take jobs.
The employers who are getting away with paying chicken feed to their workers are directly responsible for ALL of this b.s.
Personally, I don't care if an apple costs twenty bucks. That market will work itself out.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by BajaNomad]

[Edited on 5-6-2010 by DENNIS]

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 07:47 AM

Ah.. all will be better my great governor, Jan Brewer, takes up the issue of "sparklers" today. Don't believe me. Check the Arizona newspapers. Its caused quiet an emotional stir.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 07:58 AM

The number I saw was that 30% of the arizona residents are hispanic and there legally

that is simply absurd.

monoloco - 4-27-2010 at 08:20 AM

Quote:

When immigration regulations are too onerous to comply with then people will circumvent the law. I am convinced that the reason that we have so many illegals in the US is because we have made it so difficult to get in legally or illegally that once in the states folks are reluctant to leave. I have even known Europeans who have stayed in the states illegally because of the difficulties of obtaining a visa. The only way to address this problem is to have a coherent and streamlined process for workers to enter the country, it is too much to expect a farm laborer, domestic, or restaurant dishwasher to wade through a bureaucratic quagmire that can take 10 years or more. At best the Arizona law will just drive the illegals into other states and will do nothing to solve the broader issues.

mtgoat666 - 4-27-2010 at 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
78% of the legal residents of AZ support SB 1070 according to some recent polls.

there was a time that the majority of the populations in some states supported slavery and segregation,... just because a majority of people agree does not make it right.

i suspect that the majority that capt mike touts as validation of AZ law is similar to the majority that once supported slavery.

mob rule is not good rule.

[Edited on 4-27-2010 by mtgoat666]

David K - 4-27-2010 at 08:26 AM

There is some truth to what monoloco says... Many years ago, people from Mexico crossed the border easily to visit friends and family and went back... anywhere they wanted, not just at ports of entry... no big deal.

However, with the rise in drug smuggling then the 9-11 terrorist attack, the border was the only way to restrict the free flow of drugs and people across the border.

But, once across... instead of going back, it is far easier to just stay.

Barry A. - 4-27-2010 at 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
78% of the legal residents of AZ support SB 1070 according to some recent polls.
cops have to have probable cause BEFORE any action - no diff.
all they are doing is asking if one is an American or a tourist....
since no one at the fed level will step in and enforce SIMILAR laws on the books our state decided to do it themselves. the killing of a rancher was apparantly the last straw in the collective mind set of the state having to deal with the pressure of all these undocumented residents taxing our social resources and sending $$ out of the country to Mexico and elsewhere.

recently a Ranch Markets outlet was found to have 40 illegals working - all were let go.
the next day 300 out of work AMERICANS showed up to apply for those jobs.
nuff said...
it is simple - RESPECT our laws. if you want to come here DO IT according to the established protocol.

Wash DC won't act. the fools in charge there have no cajones. This state has exercised its rights for sovereignty.

Capt. Mike has it exactly right!!!! The "new" AZ law specifically prohibits overt racial profiling, but always remember that profiling in general is one of the most important tools of Law Enforcement, and is done all the time and always will be----------overt "racial profiling" is illegal, and has been for years in the USA, and remains so.

Sheriff Joe A. on Larry King last night said it all--------and I believe he is right on.

barry

CortezBlue - 4-27-2010 at 08:29 AM

Quote:

[. A national id should be created and everyone should have to show it when pulled over/arrested by the cops...

I do agree with a drivers lic that has a legal residential affiliation on it. However, it has to be something that can't be forged

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Sheriff Joe got into trouble for racial profiling in Guadalupe (a suburb of Phoenix) a couple of years ago in his own effort to route the Mexican illegals.

CortezBlue - 4-27-2010 at 08:39 AM

Quote:

repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

Yes, we have leveled the playing field for gun owners. I am not a gun owner, but I agree with allowing folks to carry concealed. However, if you travel most parts of AZ there are areas that are as wide and open as the baja. Also, most stores and businesses have a sticker on the door with a pistol and a cross over it. This signify's that guns are not permitted on the prmisses. 99% of all bars and resturants have these stickers.

Lastly, but most importantly, my wife is a school Asst Superintendent in the Phoenix area, and all schools in AZ DO NOT ALLOW WEAPONS on campus, with the exception of police officers. I am not sure where you heard that, but that is not a true statemtent. Now, could you have read that some group wants to change the law to allow folks to carry a weapon on campus, that is possible.

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
profiling in general is one of the most important tools of Law Enforcement, and is done all the time and always will be----------overt "racial profiling" is illegal, and has been for years in the USA, and remains so.

Everybody profiles. You do it at the grocery store....you do it at the mall...you do it when you walk down the street. It's a large part of being aware of your environment.
Animals do it amongst animals and with humans as well.
It's only police who arn't allowed to do it. That's ridiculous.

CortezBlue - 4-27-2010 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Mike
I hope AZ creates a drivers lic that has residency information on it. I never carry my Passport or Sentri card with me and always leave them at home. I also no longer have my voter ID card, as you well know AZ used a paper card years ago, as it is floting down the salt river from tubing years ago. If I get pulled over I may need you to come get me out of jail if I only have a drivers lic. Oh. wait a minute, I am as white as a Quaker Rice cake, never mind, I will be fine.

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
Oh. wait a minute, I am as white as a Quaker Rice cake, never mind, I will be fine.

Use lots of sunblock. Hate to hear you were deported for having a good tan. :lol:

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 08:59 AM

Quote:

Cortez

Mar 5, 2008 ... Arizona Weighs Bill to Allow Guns on Campuses ... PHOENIX — Horrified by recent campus shootings, a state lawmaker here has come up with a ...
www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/us/05guns.html

Now, should we continue to ban sparklers? Since that is the issue of the day!

Helps distract from the sales tax increase (up to 10%) coming up soon. I will be sending my absentee ballot in soon

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

monoloco - 4-27-2010 at 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
There is some truth to what monoloco says... Many years ago, people from Mexico crossed the border easily to visit friends and family and went back... anywhere they wanted, not just at ports of entry... no big deal.

However, with the rise in drug smuggling then the 9-11 terrorist attack, the border was the only way to restrict the free flow of drugs and people across the border.

But, once across... instead of going back, it is far easier to just stay.

I know many workers who would come across the border in the early spring and follow the fruit harvest from California up to the northwest then return to Mexico in the late fall that now stay year round because of the difficulties of crossing the border. They struggle through the winter with no work and too much time on their hands, missing their families, this contributes to alcoholism, drug abuse, criminal activities and increases the social costs of illegal immigration. If the two political parties would just get real about immigration reform and stop using the issue as a wedge to gain political advantage they could come up with a common sense policy, but I guess they would rather use the issue to divide the country, after all it makes for a lot of good sloganeering.

Barry A. - 4-27-2010 at 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Sheriff Joe A. on Larry King last night said it all--------and I believe he is right on.

barry

Sheriff Joe got into trouble for racial profiling in Guadalupe (a suburb of Phoenix) a couple of years ago in his own effort to route the Mexican illegals.

Sheriff Joe is notorius for "getting into trouble"---------he would not be doing his job right if he did not push the envelope once in a while, or often, for that matter. But so far he has survived, and flourished, and by and large his tactics have produced good results, thus he continously gets re-elected.

I applaud him--------wish we had more of his type.

Barry

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 10:18 AM

What is the "we". You live in Kalifornia. Now on the other hand maybe we should include in our new Arizona immigration law (yes not a federal immigration law) a check for Arizona residency. that we we can exclude Kailfornians... or at least make them pay for an Arizona Visa.
:spingrin:

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Sheriff Joe A. on Larry King last night said it all--------and I believe he is right on.

barry

Sheriff Joe got into trouble for racial profiling in Guadalupe (a suburb of Phoenix) a couple of years ago in his own effort to route the Mexican illegals.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 11:15 AM

there's a reason Joe Arpaio is so popular here - he ENFORCES THE LAWS.

my bet is he'll be governor next. he's no politician just a dedicated civil servant.
we need more sheriff Joe's in Washingdumb DC.
oh - did i mis spell Washingdumb.? it's WASHINGBUM....

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 11:26 AM

Funny how people are willing to ignore the hidden racism of this law simply because in their minds, "Its enforcing the law".

I read the actual law directly from the Arizona gov, and its obvious lawyers where very careful to use wording that would not technically get the state in trouble, but in reality, allow cops to stop anybody at any time.

Mexicorn - 4-27-2010 at 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

Carry guns What is this place? Are you folks out of your minds? Whats up with all the guns are there wild animals all over the place or is crime just rampant in Arizona.
I've seen the evil and it's name is Jan Brewer.

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Funny how people are willing to ignore the hidden racism of this law simply because in their minds, "Its enforcing the law".

Allright, Jesse. You're aware of the problem I believe. What would you do?

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

Too many John Wayne movies.

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Funny how people are willing to ignore the hidden racism of this law simply because in their minds, "Its enforcing the law".

Allright, Jesse. You're aware of the problem I believe. What would you do?

I don't have a problem against the US enforcing its laws, if they want to militarize the border and stop illegal immigration, thats your right. If you want to go after the businesses that hire illegals (who are truly the reason why this problem exists in the 1st place) thats great. I am all for anything that targets illegals, just as it doesn't involve me or any of the millions of legal, citizens, visitors, and residents.

I don't have a problem with immigration checkpoints, i don't have a problem with being asked if i am legal if i was for example, stopped for speeding or something.

What i do have problems with, is the very vague wording on this law, that seems to leave all the doors open for cops to pull you over and ask for proof of legality. I am sure many responsible cops won't abuse this law, but many others will.

I simply don't want to live or visit, a place where at any time, for anything, i can be pulled over and asked for my papers, what is this? The Soviet Union?

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 12:01 PM

not true.
probable cause still must be in evidence.
cops everywhere are being tightly trained on this to avoid abuse law suits.
still - before this many cops misbehaved - that will still go on - cause they're COPS. so WTF??
i don't much like getting pulled over either and have had my share of run ins with authoritative types with a badge. abuse is here for all colors man.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 12:03 PM

LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.
IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 1 - A JOB, 2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE, 3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, 4 - WELFARE, 5 - FOOD STAMPS, 6 - CREDIT CARDS, 7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, 8 - FREE EDUCATION, 9 - FREE HEALTH CARE, 10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON 11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE 12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT

I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 12:03 PM

What we are going to do next is put brown stars on the shirts of legal Mexicans. That way we know who they are.

mariposajim - 4-27-2010 at 12:04 PM

First of all, I appreciate Shari's comments. On the mark.

You conservatives would think and act a little less mean-spiritedly if you were pulled over by a young, mexican soldier carrying a machine gun who asked for your papers. "Oh, they must have fallen out of my pocket at the restaurant." 5 months later you leave detention and are deported back to the US. I wonder if your racism would be tempered also...

The current AZ governor, as secretary of state, purged over 100,000 voters with not ONE case of voter fraud. The vast majority of these purged voters was/are hispanic. It is quite a hassle to get your voting rights reestablished once you have been purged. I imagine that hispanic voters will likely not pursue their voting rights considering the current AZ law.

Don't you find it odd that this legislation was adopted so close to the November elections? For you conservatives who will say "pshaw", dare I remind you of Katherine Harris, the Florida Secretary of State who purged voters prior to the 2000 election. I think this a deliberate political decision that may work in the short term, but in the long term will spend the end of the republican party. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of gentlemen... :biggrin:

As a frequent visitor to baja and mexico, I am ashamed of this legislation.

Cypress - 4-27-2010 at 12:08 PM

capt. mike, You have a very firm grasp of the situation. :biggrin:

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 12:16 PM

Mike you must have a grasp on something. There is no training going on yet. They don't quiet know what to do. They admit the law is very vague and leaves them at risk as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
not true.
probable cause still must be in evidence.
cops everywhere are being tightly trained on this to avoid abuse law suits.
still - before this many cops misbehaved - that will still go on - cause they're COPS. so WTF??
i don't much like getting pulled over either and have had my share of run ins with authoritative types with a badge. abuse is here for all colors man.

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 12:18 PM

If you want to be more like those counties i SUGGEST YOU EMIGRATE. I PERSONALLY LIKE MY FREEDOMS.

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.
IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 1 - A JOB, 2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE, 3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, 4 - WELFARE, 5 - FOOD STAMPS, 6 - CREDIT CARDS, 7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, 8 - FREE EDUCATION, 9 - FREE HEALTH CARE, 10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON 11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE 12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT

I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION

Mexicorn - 4-27-2010 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Mike con todo respecto. I cross the border from California into Arizona and I dont have a birth certificate on my person and I get jacked by the cops because of my skin color. What are you saying that you approve of these tactics. Why not just tatoo my forarm like they did my grandfather in Poland in 1941 God rest his soul. Is this the direction you belive this country should go? Is history repeating itself or are you going to stand up and say this is wrong with the rest of us and make a stand.

Copied from wikipedia:
The Munich Agreement
Although many people warned about the threat of N-zi Germany, Chamberlain only chose ministers that agreed with him, and wanted to avoid war. Chamberlain, together with many people of the same age, were very worried about war. They believed that people like Adolf Hitler were in power because their people felt that their situation was {{wikt:unfair|unfair}}. German people felt that the Treaty of Versailles (an agreement made to end the First World War) was unfair. When N-zi Germany invaded (took control of) Austria and the Sudetenland (a part of Czechoslovakia), Chamberlain tried to keep peace.

In September 1938 he flew to Munich to speak with Hitler. Together with the French prime minister, Édouard Daladier and the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini, he made an agreement with Hitler. Hitler was allowed to control the Sudetenland, but had to agree not to use his military to solve future disputes (disagreements). When Chamberlain returned home, many people said he had done a wonderful job. Chamberlain was very pleased, and said that the agreement meant "peace for our time".

Let us not forget amigo....

I have a tourist VISA

luisartrgz - 4-27-2010 at 12:40 PM

I wasnt that much of concerned about this law because I have all my papers and never had any encounter with the law at USA other than ask for my visa when crossing the border, but since it has been adreesed here that Police at Arizona will have the authority to Arrest me and all my family members until they can reach the mean to prove im not illegally at the country if I comit the SIN of being or act so mexican like, that an officer can slightly have a hint Im a latino and BAM put your hands in the air and into the floor and later on, oH sorry I tought you were a Wetbag if a sorry is given what so ever!

Then Yes Im concerned because even tough people have said that mexican authorities stop them just because they have USA plates at their cars I have never seen a mexican police officer truly arresting them with all the things that means Handcuffs, trowed at the floor, shouted etc.

Has a mexican police officer ever pointed a gun to you?

so yes now Im concerned and I will sopeak my mind

Ok lets compare:
Its been said that the law its the law and nothing can go against the law right?
Ok and when ask about this new Arizona Law been similar to N-zi procedures people are shock and immediately denies this comparison right?
Well lets get into the facts:
Germans embrace Hitler´s Madness because he was the political leader of their country who else to believe, he told them that jews where responsible for all economical and crime problems they had and they bought it and all of us know the results of that.
Now, the treatment of the people of Germany to the Jews was protected by a LAW but that doesn’t means it was right, it was a crime for humans but not for the germans and no country in the world stop it because they had to respect their autonomy as a country.
Reich Citizenship Law, September 15, 1935
The Reichstag has unanimously enacted the following law, which is promulgated herewith:
1 A subject of the State is a person who enjoys the protection of the German Reich and who in consequence has specific obligations towards it.
The status of subject of the State is acquired in accordance with the provisions of the Reich and State Citizenship Law.
2 A Reich citizen is a subject of the State who is of German or related blood, who proves by his conduct that he is willing and fit faithfully to serve the German people and Reich.
Reich citizenship is acquired through the granting of a Reich Citizenship Certificate.
The Reich citizen is the sole bearer of full political rights in accordance with the Law.
3 The Reich Minister of the Interior, in coordination with the Deputy of the Fuhrer will issue the Legal and Administrative orders required to implement and complete this Law.
Nuremberg, September 15, 1935, at the Reich Party Congress of Freedom
The Fuhrer and Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler
The Reich Minister of the Interior Frick
(in other words Jews doesn’t have any right and we need to treat them as dogs but we need a law for that to be “legal”)
At N-zi Germany having big noses was “probable cause” to identify a Jew!
That was a racist treatment justified by a LAW and we all know the images of crowds waving the N-zi Flags in a patriotic act of solidarity trough their country.

Now a the present days:
This Arizona Law is legal but it doesn’t mean is the correct way of solving the matter a problem that is striking most of the states in America and other countries that doesn’t have illegal immigration issues, so my question is: Why to blame people that thinks this law has resemblance with the N-zi ways if every reason explained to justify it matches the N-zi reasons:
-Nationalism and Pride
-Fear
-Hate
-Economical and Labor Problems
Justifying this kind of acts is like approval to the N-zi thinking so yeah this law can be compared to that Nuremberg Law!

It's Not That Simple

Bajahowodd - 4-27-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
The number I saw was that 30% of the arizona residents are hispanic and there legally

that is simply absurd.

"According to the 2005-2007 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau, White Americans made up 76.4% of Arizona's population; of which 59.6% were non-Hispanic whites. Hispanics and Latinos (of any race) made up 29.0% of Arizona's population."

One may reasonably conclude that It's more like 16-17% of legal Hispanics that would be more subject to profiling given their racial background and resultant physical characteristics.

What about legal people?

luisartrgz - 4-27-2010 at 12:52 PM

As I said Im legal at the USA but why do I have to fear being arrested not because my suspicious acts but my suspicious looks and its not the same beeing question or check on my papers that beeing arrested its just horrible to think my dauthers are at risk of seeing how their father can be handcuff just for an officer's hint and that there wont be a way to repair the damage to their minds, have anyone ever think on legal people,

All i have heard its about illegal people!

Im telling you why to make a legal tourist have fear of being confused by an illegal alien!

Cypress - 4-27-2010 at 12:54 PM

luisartrgz, You're equating being sent home to your family to being gassed and cremated? Isn't there something wrong with that logic?

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 12:55 PM

"According to the 2005-2007 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau, White Americans made up 76.4% of Arizona's population; of which 59.6% were non-Hispanic whites. Hispanics and Latinos (of any race) made up 29.0% of Arizona's population."

typical BS and diatribe and uesless drivel from a messed up guvmint group like the Census....what is their statistical sampling? how did they infer the data into the population? it's a wild a$$ guess. bunch of door to door nincompoops at $10 an hour who could give a rat'$ ar$e about accuracy.
if you have a faint pulse or can fog a mirror you can get a job with the Census. i'd do it but i am too busy selling plasma at the alky center down on Washington St in Phx....

"One may reasonably conclude that It's more like 16-17% of legal Hispanics that would be more subject to profiling given their racial background and resultant physical characteristics. "

which "one" may?? you??

i say you're way off base Howodd.... but i still like you. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 4-27-2010 at 01:00 PM

i say you're way off base Howodd.... but i still like you. :lol:

Ditto, Mike. :biggrin:

Dont forget

luisartrgz - 4-27-2010 at 01:11 PM

Dont forget that until 1945 at the end of the war there was no idea of the death camps and that the USA didnt got involved at the conflict until the late ages of it, before that the N-zi party even had a representative office at the USA and people used to embrace germany remember the zeppelin company runing business at NY

No, I dont think what jews had to live with, is compared with what illegals are facing now, but what about the future with laws like this passing trough!

Think about that Germany switched from being friends of USA and beeing Enemy in just one day

and the situation of jews passed from beeing hated to beeing murdered in just one day!

Conclusion

luisartrgz - 4-27-2010 at 01:28 PM

Create a more humain way to protect your border, the fence its ok, the border patrols are ok, the deportation its ok and even the jail for real criminals its ok!

but if the old un-official definition of a criminal is a person that harms or means to harm another person in a direct way I dont think that a non agressive person that made a mistake of braking the inmigration law has to be consider a "criminal" for us at mexico some words means things in different levels and a criminal for us is an image of a raper, murderer, drug dealer but not of a regular guy not following the rules!

I dont know if I explain it right!

DENNIS - 4-27-2010 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

probable cause still must be in evidence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this concept is difficult to explain to a Mexican. They don't know what it entails. They've never had that consideration.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
This thread sure does reveal the rednecks. You zonies deserve the government you got over there in clanzona.

hahaha that's rich... :lol:

you live in Kalifornia.

is your state broke yet??
at least us zonies are thinking thru problems.

but sue - lots of crapola to fix thanx to many politicos...let the leveling begin!! :bounce:

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 01:45 PM

But we are broke Mike...or are you forgetting the sales tax increase to 10%. Our idiots in this states government take the cake... If your going to point fingers,,, don'tuse Arizona State government as an example ...pls

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
This thread sure does reveal the rednecks. You zonies deserve the government you got over there in clanzona.

hahaha that's rich... :lol:

you live in Kalifornia.

is your state broke yet??
at least us zonies are thinking thru problems.

but sue - lots of crapola to fix thanx to many politicos...let the leveling begin!! :bounce:

Cypress - 4-27-2010 at 01:52 PM

luisartgz, Understood. :yes:

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 02:13 PM

ARIZONA

" It's now up to Gov. Jan Brewer to decide whether Arizona will sparkle in the future.

Without debate, the House on Monday gave final approval to legislation to legalize sparklers and similar devices in Arizona. The Senate voted 21-7 last week for the same measure."

"A divided Arizona Legislature on Thursday sent a temporary 1-cent-per-dollar increase in the state sales tax to voters, setting a May 18 election date.

The 34-25 vote in the state House was a win for Gov. Jan Brewer, who has been pushing for the tax hike since she became governor a year ago. It capped nearly a year of debate over the wisdom of tax hikes to ease budget problems."

and the best one

"Just a few days after Arizona lawmakers passed an immigration law that will essentially require anyone who is or looks like an immigrant to carry their proof of residency at all times, the Arizona House voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate and prove his own citizenship status."

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

All the other nations don't have their corporations and citizens, giving illegals work.

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 03:31 PM

Nice to know what the sponsor of the bill, really thinks:

PHOENIX (AP) — A state lawmaker who wants to reinstate a 1950s federal deportation program known as "Operation *******" is under fire again for sending supporters information from a white separatist group.

Republican Rep. Russell Pearce has apologized for e-mailing the article from the West Virginia-based National Alliance. But that hasn't stopped criticism from all directions, including state GOP leaders.

Arizona Republican Chairman Matt Salmon called the e-mail a "severe mistake," while Rep. J.D. Hayworth says he no longer supports Pearce's re-election bid.

"Given the regrettable and disturbing nature of the e-mail Russell Pearce circulated earlier this week, I cannot in good conscience lend my endorsement to his candidacy for State Representative," Hayworth said in a statement.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-12-race-supremac...

Russell Pearce quotes:

"any racially conscious White person who looks askance at miscegenation or at the rapidly darkening racial situation in America."

"media masters" force on the public their view of "a world in which every voice proclaims the equality of the races, the inerrant nature of the Jewish 'Holocaust' tale, the wickedness of attempting to halt the flood of non-White aliens pouring across our borders ... ."

And still some want to believe theres no racism behind this law? when this very same guy, sponsored it?

oxxo - 4-27-2010 at 03:43 PM

I like living in Baja California, people are nice here.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 03:44 PM

"HERE IN SAN DIEGO I SEE GOBS OF ZONIES, THEY ALL FLEE CLANZONA BECAUSE IT IS SO HORRIBLE IN SUMMER, WINTER, FALL AND SPRING
HIGHWAY 8 WAS BUILT SO ZONIES COULD FLEE THEIR MISERABLE STATE TO SAN DIEGO"

yeah i know :rolleyes:

- we all can't wait to get there for the:
crowds
floods
landslides - after the floods....
earthquakes
traffic...oh, i already said crowds
certified nutz and flakes...or was that a cereal?
wildfires
santa anna winds - did i say fires?
high cost of living and taxes....up the wazoo!!
smog - ok it's just at the big cities...but still....yech..
visiting Rio Linda....hahahaha..
and of course to be amongst the LIBERALS!! Cause they just want everything to be alright!! and sure - we all can pay for it. :lol:

Racist roots of Arizona's immigration law

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 03:44 PM

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/04/27/4210613-rac...

You Missed One

Bajahowodd - 4-27-2010 at 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
ARIZONA

" It's now up to Gov. Jan Brewer to decide whether Arizona will sparkle in the future.

Without debate, the House on Monday gave final approval to legislation to legalize sparklers and similar devices in Arizona. The Senate voted 21-7 last week for the same measure."

"A divided Arizona Legislature on Thursday sent a temporary 1-cent-per-dollar increase in the state sales tax to voters, setting a May 18 election date.

The 34-25 vote in the state House was a win for Gov. Jan Brewer, who has been pushing for the tax hike since she became governor a year ago. It capped nearly a year of debate over the wisdom of tax hikes to ease budget problems."

and the best one

"Just a few days after Arizona lawmakers passed an immigration law that will essentially require anyone who is or looks like an immigrant to carry their proof of residency at all times, the Arizona House voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate and prove his own citizenship status."

"On April 16, 2010, governor Jan Brewer signed into law a bill that legalizes the carrying of concealed firearms and other weapons in most places without a permit for adults over 21 years of age. "

Seems that everyone will be packing heat wherever and whenever. Maybe there should be a troglodyte festival in the state."

I foolishly thought that the "old West" was long gone. Actually, I'm wrong. As I recall, in the Old West, people entering town were obliged to surrender their guns to the sheriff. What progress.

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 04:00 PM

Howard. They still be packin in the open here. and your right...I forgot that one now they can carry under their overcoat...Given reason: Protection...

Lets meet at the OK Corral

Bajahowodd - 4-27-2010 at 04:28 PM

Protection from what? Each other? I've never been able to wrap my brain around the particular paranoia that abounds in a nation that prides itself on its uniqueness that provides freedom and peace. How is it that that self same environment created a huge body of people who fundamentally don't trust each other? Bottom line, it's a spurious logic. If people don't trust each other unarmed, what benefit is attained if those same people are all armed? That the mistrust encourages a false sense of security because each of us thinks we're better gunslingers than our neighbor? Do we still embrace the roots of manifest destiny and the old West?

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 04:37 PM

"Capt Cracker:
Do you really think undocumented immigrants have an easy life and free pass to riches? Are you really such an *ss?

Are you aware of the desparation that drives people to leave their homes to come to US?

Are you aware of how stressful it is to be an undocumented worker and get treated like crap by most employers?

You really are an *ss. "

actually i am a horses Arse... :lol:

not my problem goat breath.
we have a legal form of immigration. they just need to follow it. And - fix their own corrupt GC class society and develop a middle one.
i am an a$$ but you are an ostrich. :lol:

i'll meet you for civil discourse at starbucks. we'll likely be served by an illegal. you can tip. :saint:

CortezBlue - 4-27-2010 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc

Please note, I did not present this statement, it was quoted by another nomad. There are no serious discussions in AZ to allow guns in AZ schools. In fact, if you were to attend a concealed weapons course, that is one of the areas where you can not carry a gun concealed or otherwise. As I said, I am not suprised that you would read sometihng like that, but when you quote the NY Times, it doesn't hold much water.

Lets face facts. People who want to pack a weapon and don't care about taking a concealed weapons course are going to pack. People who are going to pack a weapon and use it are already walking the streets. When you level the playing field I do think that the bad guys will think twice about pulling a gun on someone to take a few bucks if they don't know if the other person is packing.

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 04:58 PM

Sundown Cortez! Tucson or Phoenix?

edit: I forgot Baja,, San Felipe or Punta Abreojos?

[Edited on 4-28-2010 by rts551]

BMG - 4-27-2010 at 05:03 PM

A friend on mine who lives 8 miles north of the Naco border crossing sent the following email to the AP news service.

Quote:

Subject: Comment on Coverage of Arizona's New Immigration Law
To: info@ap.org
Date: Tuesday, April 27, 2010, 11:19 AM

I hope you will forward this comment to all AP staff members who cover Arizona's new immigration bill SB1070. Most people do not read laws for themselves and instead take statements by public officials as fact. Among others, Arizona Rep. Raul Grijalva and Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon are being extremely irresponsible when they announce that Arizona’s new immigration law requires things like police rounding up and questioning people simply because they have brown skin. The law requires no such thing and in fact explicitly prohibits racial profiling. Elected officials may honestly state their concern that the law could foster racial profiling if it’s inappropriately applied, but statements like Rep. Grijalva and Mayor Gordon are making are misleading and inflammatory.

Members of the press covering the new law should read it and understand it for themselves (it is short and easily understood), and should challenge those kinds of inflammatory misstatements whenever they are made during an interview. In addition, where articles quote or restate inflammatory misstatements, the press should act responsibly by also pointing out or including the actual language from new law.

Just in case you have not read the bill: SB 1070

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 05:23 PM

Heres the big problem:

Quote:

B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person,

First of all, what's lawful contact? and who determines that? and whats reasonable suspicion? and according to who?

So basically, if i look Mexican, and i have been working in my yard, i better be careful about driving around in Arizona right? a Police officer can pull me over simply to advise me of whatever, and then since i look Mexican, and dressed like ive been working in my yard, then i better produce proof of legality?

This simply means a Police officer can pull me over when ever he wants, and simply determine according to his reasonable suspicion, that i might be ilegal in order to ask me for papers. That's utter bull.

I would expect this from North Korea, Iran, or China, but the US? what the hell is going on.

[Edited on 4-28-2010 by JESSE]

rts551 - 4-27-2010 at 05:23 PM

I live here, have read the bill and believe it is our legislature and governor who are irresponsible.. I have been trying to point out their other idiotic bills, but many find it convenient to stick their heads in the sand. Schools not funded, but defending this idiocy is high on the funding priority list. Hope there is a complete turnover in these idiots come election time.

Quote:

Originally posted by BMG
A friend on mine who lives 8 miles north of the Naco border crossing sent the following email to the AP news service.

Quote:

Just in case you have not read the bill: SB 1070

Hate to break it to you, but...

Dave - 4-27-2010 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

I read the actual law directly from the Arizona gov, and its obvious lawyers where very careful to use wording that would not technically get the state in trouble, but in reality, allow cops to stop anybody at any time.

In reality, any cop, anywhere can stop anyone at any time...

Even in Mexico. :rolleyes:

JESSE - 4-27-2010 at 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

In reality, any cop, anywhere can stop anyone at any time...

Even in Mexico. :rolleyes:

In reality, that doesn't happen very often, and even less, do they ask you for papers proving your immigration status. :rolleyes:

Bajaboy - 4-27-2010 at 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

In reality, any cop, anywhere can stop anyone at any time...

Even in Mexico. :rolleyes:

In reality, that doesn't happen very often, and even less, do they ask you for papers proving your immigration status. :rolleyes:

No, they ask you for the other papers in your wallet :lol:

DianaT - 4-27-2010 at 05:52 PM

Interesting.

I have read this with interest----people who I would expect to take the pro attitude and try to claim that this is not a racist draconian law have not disappointed me-----and they are the same ones who claim a fear of big government getting into their lives. Interesting.

It is difficult for me to see how every American is not horrified by this law----who will be next for the Paper's Please law. Maybe next they will go after the illegal Canadians that have many of the restaurant jobs in Carmel California. I guess everyone who could possibly be a Canadian judged by looks will need to wear a Maple Leaf.

Absurd? Yes. We allow people to cross the border when we need cheap labor, and now we declare open season on them.

It is turning the clock back many, many years. At one time people hunted Native Americans in northeast California---there was a bounty on them and they had no legal recourse. Almost a century AFTER the Civil War, Black Sharecroppers in the South could not leave the "farms" without travel papers, and they had no viable legal recourse.

So now, Arizona is declaring open season on undocumented workers----no human being is illegal----so now the freaks in organizations like the Minute Men can be free to prey upon these people---rob, rape, or whatever because they now will not be able to go to the police. Fear of the police---yes, Papers Please.

First thing we were asked by a friend when we returned to Baja was about this law----we told him that we were really ashamed and disgusted. He said he thought it was very unAmerican---he is correct.

Secure the borders, yes -- but open season on any human being is a serious human rights abuse.

The US closes their eyes when they need the cheap labor, and will do so again.

Sick, it is really sick and it is amazing the amount of racists on this forum!

Diana and John ---- yes these sentiments are from both of us and we going to support one of Arizona's own Congressman who is boycotting his own state!

BOYCOTT ARIZONIA

Dave - 4-27-2010 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
and even less, do they ask you for papers proving your immigration status. :rolleyes:

No, and that's a good thing because Mexican immigration law requires that I carry them.

BTW, they usually do ask for a drivers license which just happens to be all that's needed to prove compliance with Arizona's new law.

capt. mike - 4-27-2010 at 06:12 PM

this just rec'd from a good friend from CA and NV (dual state citizenship...) who has DONATED thousands of $$$s and hours with the Flying Sams since the 60s...

"maybe not but true hahaahaha you boys in az are in the news all over about your new mex law hahahaha cracks me up the president of mex does not like the law you and me have to have visas flight plans , landing fees and entry permits and they get mad if you ask for a paper F them ahhahhha"

another whack job? i think not. most here couldn't carry his briefcase...

F them indeed.... :spingrin:

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