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CortezBlue
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Registered: 11-14-2006
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Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)
Well for those of you who are not aware of it, AZ's Gov just signed a bill that will go into affect in 90 days. Essentially the bill does the
following:
1. Police are required to check the legality of any person, with probable cause, to check anyone's residency papers.
2. It is illegal for anyone who does not have legal paperwork to be in AZ.
3. Anyone who is in association with anyone that is not in AZ legally will be arrested. i.e., if you are a legal US citizen but a family member is
not, you will both be arrested if you are in a car or home with this person.
4. AZ residents have the right to bring suit to any local, state or federal govt who is not upholding laws in regards to imigration.
I am very concerned about this bill becoming law in 90 days. Traveling in and out of Mexico 2 or 3 times a month, I hope that Mexican polica don't
decide to create a similar law.
What are your thoughts for or against this??
UPDATE: After reading some of these comments, I do want to state that I am fiscally conservative republican. After reading some of the comments from
my conservative nomads I think it is important to state that this is not a right v left situation.
[Edited on 4-27-2010 by CortezBlue]
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by CortezBlue
What are your thoughts for or against this?? |
It's pretty tough, for sure, but the federal government won't do anything so maybe this will prompt them to do their job.
The very vocal activists won't settle for anything less than nothing so I have no sympathy for them.
In it's present form, I doubt the bill will be enacted.
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David K
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So the Arizona police are actually going to be allowed to carry out enforcing the law? How unique! 
"If Mexico creates a similar law"? Don't they already arrest law breakers in Mexico?
Do you cross into Mexico without using a Port of Entry, ie. sneak across the desert?
Do you stay in Mexico without a visa or tourist card when it is required and come to Mexico without money that helps Mexico?
Do you utilize free emergency room service?
I bet the answer is NO...
If people don't break laws then they don't need to fear law enforcement... ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BORDER!  
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Bajahowodd
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First, your bullet points don't adequately cover the wording of the law, although I do appreciate that you did point out some important issues.
Second, the net effect of this law could do great economic harm to AZ. Having been a citizen of this country for six decades, I absolutely cannot
fathom how anyone should be required to carry proof of citizenship whenever they venture out of their home. That said, racial or ethnic profiling is
the obvious result of such a law. I'm reminded of what African American friends have complained about for decades. There is an unwritten law that's
known as DWB- driving while black. Police have used this excuse for years to pull over and hassle any African American on the basis of the fact that
they are in neighborhood that has no blacks, or because they are driving a car that does not meet the stereotype the police officer has for blacks.
This AZ law creates a slightly different scenario that I call BWB- breathing while brown. Ordinarily, I would be certain that the courts would strike
this law down for being vague and unconstitutional. But, inasmuch as the SCOTUS currently contains a majority of hand-picked pro-Republican judges, I
worry that the law may actually be upheld.
That said, there are folks organizing against this law that could create a situation that could do vast economic harm to AZ, by diverting tourists and
potential residents.
However, at the end of the day, I must sadly consider that this is most probably an off-topic topic.
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Bajahowodd
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David K doesn't have a real clue about this. It's obvious that as a light skinned, light haired white guy, he has no experience within the realm of
being a minority. In fact, one of the primary reasons this bill passed in AZ, if because there is a dearth of minorities in the state. Maybe he should
move there where he can blend in with all the other white guys. Perhaps he should go back to watching Glen Beck, where they can both find some form of
release.
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drzura
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I believe David K probably has a good idea of what illegal imagracion is doing to our beloved homeland. It's about time a state grew some balls and
did what was right for the legal residents. All this political b.s. is a bunch of crap. A national id should be created and everyone should have to
show it when pulled over/arrested by the cops...
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Sur2baja
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We'll since you asked...here are some of my thoughts in no particular order of importance:
#1) I understand why Arizona did this and I empathize but I don't feel it will accomplish much.
#2) We need to seal the borders. Period.
#3) Nailing a small percentage of all illegals won't solve the problems that have been created. It's like balancing your checkbook. If we as a
nation cant provide for services for a certain number of persons, then don't let more in. See #2.
#4) The majority (I believe) are just hard working individuals trying to earn a buck. If I could sneak across the border into Mexico and earn big
bucks compared to my income here, I might take advantage of it. I don't blame the individuals for what our country has allowed to happen. Again, I
believe the majority are good people.
#5) Our country has to get serious on policy, laws and enforcement. But after #2.
#6) It used to be you had to be sponsored and have a job to offer society something for services in return. We need to go back to that.
#7) As a public service employee (vague on purpose!!!), I see too many workers that turn into a bunch of drunks and vagrants. I think #6 could help
with this. When your forced underground (or in shanty towns) because your illegal, what else is there to do? It's a shame.
#8) I have no idea how to do this logistically or practically, but amnesty for those currently here is not the right thing to do. MAybe if they
could get sponsored with employment, then figure out how to allow those to stay???
#9) Our current system (lol) is not working. It's just a series of Band-Aids on a gushing wound.
#10) I have been vacationing in Mex since 72. I try to respect the culture, the people and their laws. As a guest and visitor, I don't expect a free
ride with services. I am not a citizen of Mexico and I don't have RIGHT to much. It should be the same here.
#11) I'm a white guy and not a minority. I do have a degree in Mexican/American studies in an attempt to understand where certain individuals are
coming from but that doesn't mean I can truly appreciate every fact of Hispanic life. But I try.
#12) This should not be about race, it's about a society not being able to sustain it's self as a society with the influx of outsiders of that
society. The United States has a border. Mexico has a border. The two countries a run differently and while not touchy feely, the citizens of each
country/society need to respect the others situation and laws.
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JESSE
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This is a stupid law. I have no problems with any sovereign nation or state enforcing its laws, but not at the expense of legal citizens or visitors.
I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no reason what so ever, except for
your skin color.
Arizona has the right to enforce its laws, even if i think they are racist and unfair to legal residents, citizens, and visitors. I also have the
right not to purchase anything made in Arizona, and encourage Mexicans not to visit, or do business with them.
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MrBillM
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A Dearth ?
HUH ? What's the Definition of a DEARTH ?
"In fact, one of the primary reasons this bill passed in AZ, if because there is a dearth of minorities in the state".
According to the 2000 census, Latino/Hispanics accounted for 25 percent of Arizona's population.
In fact, the Latino percentages in Phoenix were above those in Los Angeles.
I would expect that the 2010 numbers will show a HUGE increase over that without even counting the Illegals who are bringing such wonderful things to
Phoenix as a Staggering Murder Rate. Now Number Eight Nationwide, aren't they ?
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Bajahowodd
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Funny thing is that when employment was at a high, it was not such a major deal. I just have a problem with the idea that we can beat up on the people
who we have tacitly allowed to mow our lawns, clean our houses, build our houses, cook our meals (anyone ever look into the kitchen of almost any
restaurant from fast food to gourmet?), well..... The primary reason that an amnesty happened under Ronald Reagan was because people realized that
they were receiving value. The whole wall thing is an abomination and reminiscent of Berlin and the Communists. Or perhaps what's happening between
Israel and Palestine. It hurts me to the bone to think that on a border that has had centuries of mutual benefit, the US is acting more like a
totalitarian country and erecting a fence/ wall between us and our most common neighbors. It may well seem like a stretch, but just think about the
safety of US ex-pats and tourist should there be a populist backlash within Mexico.
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David K
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The law is already on the books... this is about actually enforcing the law... doing the will of the people of Arizona.
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. People from Mexico can be blonde or red
heads with freckles, too.
Why is it some think that Mexicans are somewhat less able to immigrate here legally over ALL other nationalities... that only they should be allowed
to break the law and do what-ever they wish in the U.S.? I believe Mexicans are just as able as ANY OTHER people to join our society and become
Americans the very same way ALL others have, legally!
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I am always amazed at the number of visitors to our village who are illegally in mexico...dont have tourist visas...and wonder what the percentage of
tourists in baja are actually here illegally. People always have some lame excuse for not getting their visa usually based on the inconvenience of it.
Most people have no idea how incredibly difficult and costly it is for a mexicano to legally get into the states....yet even though it's easy and
cheap...many many tourists just dont bother getting a visa.
How do you think tourist would respond if police started stopping white people...ask to see their visa and arrest them if they didnt have it...along
with everyone else in the car???? hmmmm...dont think it would go over too well. I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law.
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. |
Are they going to stop you because you might be a Polish illegal immigrant? off course not. But if i visit Arizona, any cop can pull me over for no
reason except my race, and your claiming this is not racist?
I am not against the state enforcing its laws and targeting illegal immigrants, but why the hell should i or legal citizens feel like at any moment we
can be pulled over by law enforcement even if we did not do anything wrong?
Would you like to live in a place where you can get pulled over at any time for nothing, except for the color of your skin? what if one day you forget
your ID?
This is a racist law, targeting all people of brown color, regardless of their legal status.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no reason what so ever, except for
your skin color.
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Perhaps I should better aquaint myself with the law, but I didn't think it was to work like that. I think the police will still need probable cause to
detain and question anybody and skin color isn't probable cause.
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monoloco
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I wonder if anybody knows just what it takes to get legal working papers these days? I know a couple of people who have had their applications in for
over 5 years and haven't even had an interview. If all the farms and orchards followed the letter of the law most fruit and vegetables would rot in
the fields, it is almost impossible for small and medium sized operations to hire legal workers and there are few Americans who will do the job. I
believe that laws like the one in Az are just trying to drive illegals back into the shadows so they are easier to exploit.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. |
Are they going to stop you because you might be a Polish illegal immigrant? off course not. But if i visit Arizona, any cop can pull me over for no
reason except my race, and your claiming this is not racist?
I am not against the state enforcing its laws and targeting illegal immigrants, but why the hell should i or legal citizens feel like at any moment we
can be pulled over by law enforcement even if we did not do anything wrong?
Would you like to live in a place where you can get pulled over at any time for nothing, except for the color of your skin? what if one day you forget
your ID?
This is a racist law, targeting all people of brown color, regardless of their legal status. |
My friend, please show me the law... any law in the U.S. that says skin color can be used to pull you over. A law like that would have been eliminated
back in the 60's when the Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act!
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law. |
They don't need a law to retaliate.
I think this "law" is being misread by some here. I don't think it could be as N-zi-ish as some see it. I'm not defending it...I just don't think
it's fully understood by everybody here.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by JESSE I can't imagine what it would be to visit Arizona and feeling that at any point, someone can pull you over with no
reason what so ever, except for your skin color. |
Of course you can- and you can see it and read about it. Pre-WWII. History repeats itself so we can see just how stuck on stupid we- as a people,
are. "Your papers please?"
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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David K
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I wonder if people will refuse to stop at military checkpoints in Mexico now?
I mean, they are 'picking on us' just because we 'drive a car'... and 'some cars' can transport drugs or guns... but not everyone... it just isn't
fair that the make us pull over and search us like we are illegals! WAAAAA! WAAAAA! 
In the U.S., we have DUI checkpoints set up at night... and we are stopped.. and checked to see if we are illegally driving (drunk or without a
license)... They just pick on us... waaaaa waaaaa! 
(in both cases, Mexico and the U.S., if you are not breaking the law, you have NOTHING to fear... Same is true IF they did stop you because of your
'looks'! I know I have been stopped in Mexico by the police just because my car and I look like we are Americans!!! 
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oldlady
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
[quoteAre they going to stop you because you might be a Polish illegal immigrant? off course not. But if i visit Arizona, any cop can pull me over for
no reason except my race, and your claiming this is not racist?
I am not against the state enforcing its laws and targeting illegal immigrants, but why the hell should i or legal citizens feel like at any moment we
can be pulled over by law enforcement even if we did not do anything wrong?
Would you like to live in a place where you can get pulled over at any time for nothing, except for the color of your skin? what if one day you forget
your ID?
This is a racist law, targeting all people of brown color, regardless of their legal status. |
The answer, Jesse, to your first question is in the language of the law
and the answer is no, you can not be pulled over because of your race...on the other hand if you were, view it as a lottery ticket, more than enough
lawyers would gladly represent you and you'd get quite the settlement in a potentially high profile case.
The Arizona law specifies "during lawful contact blah blah if there is reasonable suspicion." Lawful contact could be a traffic violation, it is the
precipating event. Then the ensuing reasonable suspicion part (which has more "wiggle room") may take place.
If the training materials are well done, and the officers understand and implement the law with the goal of protecting all people who live peacefully
in Arizona, the fears of racial discrimination and civil rights violations are overblown and the law might well survive the threatened court tests.
The governor has to be diligent in managing her law enforcement to that level and still achieve the objective of protecting the residents from people
who enter Arizona, frequently with the objective of criminal activity. Heretofore this has been the responsibility of the federal government and it
has not fulfilled it. When that happens, the ultimate arbiter, the Supreme Court, tends to be sympatheic to a state's efforts. If Arizona is
successful, there will be less crime, less murder, less human trafficking, less drug trafficking in Arizona. For people of every color that will be a
good thing and it might have a positive impact on the other side of Arizona's border. I wish US politicians and media would focus more on the
possibilities of a safer Arizona rather than fueling fears of racism.
I do live in a place, La Paz, where I have been pulled over because of the color of my skin. Although alleged, there was no traffic violation. Both
the officer and I knew that. As for my papers, they have replaced my AMEX card. I don't leave home without them and have a suppy of photocopies in
every purse and glove compartment.
Neither am I indignant about what others might call racism or about being asked for indentification. I chose to live here and it is what it is.
[Edited on 4-27-2010 by oldlady]
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