BajaNomad - Calderon Proposes Scrapping Local Police Departments... in Baja too?

Calderon Proposes Scrapping Local Police Departments... in Baja too?

Woooosh - 6-6-2010 at 12:02 PM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/03/drug-torn-mex...

The article isn't specific where this would happen. The Mayor of Rosarito has been fielding a record number of complaints against the local police. I do like the idea of having better quality police- but can't they do that in schools instead of bringing in the Military? They identified the need for more schooling by the police two years ago- those guys could have a AA degree by now...

"Part of the goal is to root out corruption by replacing generally low-paid, poorly educated local police, who are seen as more susceptible to bribery and intimidation by the powerful cartels."

The goal is hard to argue with, but what about the judicial system that is educated, totally corrupt and can undo whatever the military does as policemen.? Will Military courts be next then until Mexican civilian courts catch up too? hmm.

wessongroup - 6-6-2010 at 12:09 PM

Wooosh, would you expand a bit on the "Rosarito" ...... thanks..

DENNIS - 6-6-2010 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I do like the idea of having better quality police- but can't they do that in schools instead of bringing in the Military?

They're only as good as their teachers.

bajaguy - 6-6-2010 at 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I do like the idea of having better quality police- but can't they do that in schools instead of bringing in the Military?

They're only as good as their teachers.

And their leaders..........personally, I prefer the military

Bajahowodd - 6-6-2010 at 12:45 PM

The long term solution should not be the military. Police and soldiers are trained for different tasks. That said, from what I gleaned from the article, eliminating local police and having each state have their own, singular policing unit would appear to be a logistical nightmare. Even now, less than half the states even have an existing force of their own. But, the one benefit from this idea would be that with a stronger, better paid, better educated force that was responsible to a centralized state authority, chances are good that it would eliminate some amount of the corruption that exists today.

DENNIS - 6-6-2010 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
responsible to a centralized state authority, chances are good that it would eliminate some amount of the corruption that exists today.

Really?? Why?? Did they go to "Saint School?"
You have to remember...corruption IS the system. It's one thing to change the actors, but a completely different thing to change the script.
A good person who falls into a cesspool has to deal with cess. [whatever that is]

OK...I'm out of metaphores till I get back from Sharkey's.

Bajahowodd - 6-6-2010 at 02:25 PM

I'm not blind to the idea that corruption won't just end, if the change is made. Just that, given the huge numbers of local forces whose members report locally and are therefore locally influenced and beholden, might change somewhat if there is a strong centralized authority that will be much less likely to be influenced by local "needs and wants".

Cypress - 6-6-2010 at 02:29 PM

No thought's regarding the Gulf of Mexico oils spill? :?:

tjBill - 6-6-2010 at 02:57 PM

The Tijuana police are behaving better. Have not heard of extortion attempts recently. Firing a third of the force and boosting their pay to 15,000 pesos a month seems to be working.

Woooosh - 6-6-2010 at 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Wooosh, would you expand a bit on the "Rosarito" ...... thanks..

If you mean police complaints- it's for civil stuff like "over stepping their authority". The local paper said the Mayor has received 30 formal complaints in the last 90 days. They made a few policeman heroes after that and had some public ceremonies to counter the bad PR. They do post a long and detailed (although not verifiable) daily police log on the "Rosarito in the News" http://rosaritoenlanoticia.blogspot.com/#googtrans/auto/en.

The police reports are by police unit and neighborhood. To check their accuracy I would drink a fifth of good tequila and run around your neighborhood buck naked. I'll check the website and see if they mentioned you in the daily Police Log...

wessongroup - 6-6-2010 at 03:31 PM

Thanks Woooosh.. I needed that... :lol:

You Talkin' To Me?

Bajahowodd - 6-6-2010 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
No thought's regarding the Gulf of Mexico oils spill? :?:

Woooosh - 6-6-2010 at 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
No thought's regarding the Gulf of Mexico oils spill? :?:

yeah. I think more about those underwater PeMex pipelines in Rosarito. They aren't from Haliburton- are they?

The Gulf spill situation reminds me of Chernobyl or three-mile island. Some technologies and industries should never be allowed to skimp on safety for whatever purpose.

DENNIS - 6-6-2010 at 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I'm not blind to the idea that corruption won't just end, if the change is made. Just that, given the huge numbers of local forces whose members report locally and are therefore locally influenced and beholden, might change somewhat if there is a strong centralized authority that will be much less likely to be influenced by local "needs and wants".

Nonsense...You know that.
Quit tryig to assign responsibily as you like it to those who act out your reality.

BajaBruno - 6-6-2010 at 07:15 PM

While I don't necessarily agree with Dennis' unilateral rejection of the idea, I am also not optimistic that having the state take over law enforcement for the cities will change things overnight. One could argue that by rotating officers they would not have the opportunity to establish the linkages that are necessary to maintain systemic corruption, but the problem is not the officers--it is their supervisors. If the leaders allow it, corruption will happen. Good leadership could stop the problem quickly.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the state LE is just as succeptible to crime as their local brothers--they are just more discreet about it.
Mexico tried replacing all the customs guys at the border to reduce corruption and I haven't heard how that experiment has faired.

Woooosh - 6-6-2010 at 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
While I don't necessarily agree with Dennis' unilateral rejection of the idea, I am also not optimistic that having the state take over law enforcement for the cities will change things overnight. One could argue that by rotating officers they would not have the opportunity to establish the linkages that are necessary to maintain systemic corruption, but the problem is not the officers--it is their supervisors. If the leaders allow it, corruption will happen. Good leadership could stop the problem quickly.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the state LE is just as succeptible to crime as their local brothers--they are just more discreet about it.
Mexico tried replacing all the customs guys at the border to reduce corruption and I haven't heard how that experiment has faired.

To your point- if Rosarito would prohibit the use of personal cell phones on duty by the Police- that alone would help a lot. The shady people know which cops to call to the scene to take over from the responding officers and change the outcome of the investigation. They have to be randomly dispatched within a reasonably sized sector.

BajaBruno - 6-6-2010 at 09:08 PM

Gnukid, certainly, creating military rule would be an exaggerated response except in the most dire circumstances, but a federal police force is rather common. Both France and Italy, to mention large, modern states, have national police working in cities and it seems to work well; so, nationalizing the police function is not necessarily the first step to tyranny and totalitarianism.

Woooosh, if only the solution were as simple as banning cell phones. That's what you do with an otherwise good police force who are casually overstepping their boundaries. When you have wholesale corruption, the remedy must be much more dramatic. I see your point, and it is well taken, but corruption happens because leaders allow it, and they allow it because it benefits them.

As an isolated and by comparison minor example, the LAPD Rampart Scandal was a result of leadership who wanted crime reduction results and didn't care how they got them. But, cops who are allowed to break little rules lose their ethics, and then breaking big rules doesn't seem to be such a stretch.

Mexico has the same situation, but for different motives. The result is the same--once a cop's (or priest's, or an intelligence agent's) ethics are compromised, there is really no going back and no limit to what they will do. A few minor rule changes are not going to solve the problem. You can’t un-rot that barrel of apples.

JESSE - 6-7-2010 at 02:00 AM

This is a bad law.

Bajajorge - 6-7-2010 at 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I do like the idea of having better quality police- but can't they do that in schools instead of bringing in the Military?

They're only as good as their teachers.

Which gold card has the most juice, military or police?

And their leaders..........personally, I prefer the military

Woooosh - 6-7-2010 at 09:12 AM

All good points. I guess I should accept "the fish stinks from the head" approach. A few months ago Jesse pointed out the cozy relationship sought between certain political parties and drug cartels (correct me if I mis-stated it). I guess the drug cartels are the "lobbyists" of the Mexican political system and that makes rooting corruption pretty much impossible when there is really no individual will to do it- words and posturing, but not much actual will IMHO. Who in Mexico is willing to live on their base incomes and be the first to turn down a cash bribe? After seeing my money change hands at the PGJE with my own eyes- and seeing the grateful look the cash recipients had on their faces, I am convinced these people only see this corruption the way a sub-minimum wage waitress sees yet expects a tip for service at a restaurant.

Even from his jail cell a thousand miles away where he is charged with having $2.5 Million of narco-cash stashed away in secret bank accounts- the Mayor of Cancun is still trying to stay on the election ballot:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06...

[Edited on 6-7-2010 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 6-7-2010 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Perhaps the time has come to stand up for ourselves, and instead of imagining that there is always someone else who will do it for us, an altruistic cutesy nanny-leader there to coddle us like infantile children, instead every woman and man is their own self-leader and capable of understanding how and when to say no (and when to say yes).

I wonder if poor diet is the main tool to weaken the public, along with conflicting and nonsensical TV media, orchestrated catastrophe following catastrophe, leaving many to be brainwashed of reason who give up and give in to corruption meekly instead of responding with a rational, NO!

Where's the limit point when you stand up to stop abuse of your neighbor, yourself or family. After it's too late, or before? You people are awfully quiet on all fronts. It's late.

[Edited on 6-7-2010 by gnukid]

I'm not optimistic. Mexico has always been corrupt as it was the Spanish way they inherited with their democracy. The Mexican people have always had to ask, plead and give bribes for whatever they get from their government. They are beaten down at a young age and become a passive part of the problem. Contrast that to the USA which was founded by revolutionaries who created a constitution of the people, not the government. Americans cherish the right to bear arms to protect themselves from their government, Mexico prevents her people from bearing arms to keep them from becoming revolutionary. Very simplistic I know- but the two countries have very very different origins which is part of the problem we have applying any logical USA solutions to Mexico. How can we expect Mexicans to rise up within this flawed system?

Marc - 6-27-2010 at 05:16 AM

Martial Law = Seventeen year olds with automatic weapons.

bajabass - 6-27-2010 at 06:15 AM

The option is a middle aged gordo. As corrupt as the day is long! Look the other way a few times a day. Target a few U.S. plated vehicles for some mordida. Maybe a kidnapping or two to buy the wife a new car. I was a seventeen year old with an M-16. I would trust the military more than the local police. It all boils down to the upper-brass. I think the military has a little more internal oversight than local police forces. Possibly more eyes to root out corruption.

fishabductor - 6-27-2010 at 05:04 PM

I am all for Military policing. As are my mexican family. The military don't F... around with criminals, they don't make stops for morditas.

lets see a show of hands of people who have been pulled over by cops who've been harassed and had to pay morditas(bribes)

Now lets see a show of hands of people who've had the same experience with soldiers?

I have been pulled over 4 times and had to pay one bribe with cops. I have never had to pay a soldier. they have always been friendly.

monoloco - 6-27-2010 at 06:52 PM

I certainly wouldn't object to him replacing the police in Ciudad Constitution.

fishabductor - 6-27-2010 at 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I certainly wouldn't object to him replacing the police in Ciudad Constitution.

Exactly my point. I was actually going to edit my post and say that.....but roasted chicken and potato gnocchi distracted me :spingrin:

bajabass - 6-28-2010 at 12:34 PM

I have been hit several times, and paid twice in the last ten years. The first, I was guilty of speeding as the toll road into TJ ends. 70 bucks. Another, they hit me as I tried to enter the line, unsafe lane change, after directed to do so by his buddy/cohort in crime. He wanted 80, got 20, and I was let right into line. Every time since, I have been let go, and once my wife paid a 17 dollar ticket for me. Give me the military any day! They have been nothing but professional, courteous, and helpful, from TJ to the tip!

Woooosh - 6-28-2010 at 02:12 PM

It seems to depend on who in the Military is serving you. The commander we have in TJ is good- but many people in Juarez feel they're a problem there.

In Rosarito the police commander has stated that men need a military background to progress through the ranks. We had a friend bypassed for promotion because he hasn't served in the military yet. He understands that and thinks military training is needed as well. The sooner the better IMHO.

BTW- Anyone know where the Rosarito Police station moved to? The old one downtown next to CESPT is now a tourist information center. The cells should be on a tour...