There was a recent thread on batteries. In that thread Comitan mentioned a Battery Saver that can restore and maintain the condition of lead/acid
batteries. I have done some research and found some very good reviews of this product. I have purchased one for our motor home, 2 deep cycle 6 volt
batteries. There are Savers for various configurations. I contacted them to insure that the sensitive electronics in our motor home would be safe. I
was assured that they would.
For more information I would recommend a Google search on the technology. Mine cost $119, cheap in the long run.
Like many others here I have run into a problem with battery sulfate buildup, this does not allow the battery to hold a deep charge. I have done some
research on this issue and a friend who lives in Baja and uses a lot of batteries for his solar system recommended this product. It separates the lead
sulfates back into lead and sulfuric acid allowing the battery to generate and maintain a deep charge. I would encourage you to do some research on
this product, it looked too good to be true, but there is a lot of good info on it online. I purchased one for Our View
Iflyfish
’06 View Hcomitan - 9-21-2010 at 01:48 PM
Iflyfish
Very good report, but I might add there are many desulfators out there on ebay and other sites that I think work just as well and a lot cheaper, there
also forums and sites on how to build your own.Bob and Susan - 9-21-2010 at 03:51 PM
$119?
a new 6 volt battery can be had for $90ea
since you only have 2
i'd rather get new batteries
not neededIflyfish - 9-21-2010 at 04:03 PM
My batteries are $150 apiece and this is the second set for me. I believe Comitan is right, can find the device cheaper or build. I have a bit of a
time crunch so went for this model. It is the technology that is interesting to me.
I am not selling these things, just offering info on what is a new technology to me and could be of some use to folks dependant upon battery power.
IflyfishBob and Susan - 9-21-2010 at 04:08 PM
i would be more interested in why they are sulfating...
maybe they need a higher charge
factory settings on charge controlers are set too low
you need to raise this up
the manufacturer does this to "protect" the controllerIflyfish - 9-21-2010 at 04:31 PM
This is part of the problem. Batteries do need attention or they will sulfate. In our case I thought our solar would provide enough charge to keep the
batteries charge, it did indeed do that, however sulfation occured so I sit with two $150 batteries that won't hold a deep charge. This has happened
twice. I have now changed out our charger to one that provides "inteli" charging, it pulses periodically to break up the lead sulphate.
Battery maintenance is a challenge for someone like me, who is not that mechanicaly minded or skilled. So anything that makes that task easier is good
for me.
I have found good golf cart batteries at Costco for hald of what my Trojan 105's cost, but it was cheaper to lay out $120 on a technology that might
rejuvenate my batteries and make them last a long time. I have read on this site reports of people who have had batteries last six - ten years! That
sounds good to me.
I also discharged my batteries below 11.5 and that contributed to the problem, this happened after they had begun sulfating, so that compounded the
problem no doubt, as well as many other factors I am no doubt ignorant about.
Save the whales?!! Hell, save the batteries is my call!!
Hope to see you on our trip.
IflyfishlarryC - 9-22-2010 at 07:29 AM
Iflyfish
If I might ask, what voltage do you charge your batteries up to? And how many watts in solar panels do you have?
Larryncampion - 9-22-2010 at 07:36 AM
I recently asked about this type of device on the AZ Sun-Wind forum and got the following response. These people really know about batteries and
charging. Don't expect too much from the device and you won't be disappointed.
Charge to 13.5, now have "inteli charger" that varies charge. 130 solar panel.
Great discussion link ncampion, thanks.
IflyfishBob and Susan - 9-22-2010 at 11:28 AM
try 14.1 to equalize and float at 13.5comitan - 9-22-2010 at 11:54 AM
Bob the "inteli charger charger does that, they are very smart.Bob and Susan - 9-22-2010 at 12:10 PM
no they are factory set to a lower number
to "protect" the controler
you need to manually reset the equalize higher 14.1
and float to 13.5 on a 12v systemcomitan - 9-22-2010 at 12:36 PM
Bob we are talking about the new battery chargers.
Like the Schumacher SC7500A Electronic charger.
[Edited on 9-22-2010 by comitan]Bob and Susan - 9-22-2010 at 12:43 PM
off-the-shelf chargers dont raise
the charge high enough in the batteries
maybe that's why his are sulfating
if the battery is not completely charged it sulfates
you need to get 12 volt batteries to 14.1 to 14.5 not 13.1
my 24v system equalizes at 29.1 and floats at 27.1
a charger would only raise the voltage to 26.1comitan - 9-22-2010 at 12:54 PM
Bob the electronic charger gives a digital readout and I have seen 14.4 on my charger while charging the batteries then it goes down to 13.3 13.4.Bob and Susan - 9-22-2010 at 01:21 PM
ok then it works...
my 12v "smart charger" doesnt have a read-outlandyacht318 - 9-22-2010 at 01:51 PM
I've been rather obsessive about keeping my deep cycles from sulfating. Basically any time you discharge the batteries, sulfate forms on the plates,
and the longer that sulfate remains, the harder it gets, and the harder it is for any charger to return that sulfate to the electrolyte.
I read a lot of battery posts over on the RV. net forums, and there is a former battery engineer in particular who lives full time in an RV in
mainland mexico who really knows his stuff.
I can imagine his response to this thread.
But basically you need abosrption voltages in the mid 14's to be able to fully charge a battery. That voltage is the only way to overcome the internal
resistance within the battery and top it off.
Of course, absorption voltages vary with temperature and battery make.
What has not yet been mentioned in this thread is equalization, which is an intentional overcharge. It is designed to bring all the cells in the
battery to the same specific gravity, with voltages up around 15.9 volts. This high voltage also acts to remove the sulfates, either dissolving them
back into the electrolyte, or allowing them to shed off the plates and collect on the bottom, but exposing fresh plate material, restoring some
capacity.
The problem with shedding the hardened sulfates is it builds up on the bottom and eventually will short out the cell rendering the battery useless,
and if batteries are in parallel, the shorted one will quickly destroy the other.
6 volt golf cart batteries , being taller, have more room under the plates, so more material can shed before they short out.
Now there also is the 5 to 13% rule, meaning a 100 amp hour battery should be charged at a minimum of 5 amps during the bulk phase. If this minimum
amperage is not met the battery likely will not be full charged, and chronic undercharging leads to sulfation, and premature battery death.
I have 130 watts for 230 a/h of battery, which is well below 5%. My monitor claims that the solar is capable or returning all the amp hours I use.
BUT, when I use a 25 amp charger to recharge the batteries, I can tell that the batteries will hold a higher voltage overnight than if the solar
attempted the task by itself.
Crown, the maker of my deep cycle 12 volts wants 20 amps at 14.5 volts per 115 a/h battery. When I have borrowed an additional charger to meet this 40
amp bulk charging requirement, the batteries acted like they were brand new again for a couple days.
With too little solar, you might be able to mitigate usage, and even fully charge a battery given enough time, and having solar is great overall for
battery health, but unless you have enough solar to meet the 5% rule, you batteries will always be a little hungry, sulfate early and die. You should
have enough solar to be able to equalize the batteries, meaning you can program the controller to go up to near 16 volts for about 2 hours. Every 12
volt appliance should be disconnected from the battery for this procedure so as to not damage electronics with too much voltage, and to keep the
voltage at 15.8.
There are lots of threads who claim the pulse desulfator chargers are worthless, others who think the opposite and post results proving their point.
I have used them on older batteries and was able to convince myself they did do something, but a week later I was back where I started, and a couple
weeks after that I was searching for some true Deep cycle batteries as replacements.
If you need a charger anyway, get one that can meet the charging requirements listed by you battery manufacturer. If you are only getting a
desulpating charger to try and recondition your current batteries, my opinion is you will be better off with new batteries, and more solar and an
absorption voltage setpoint in the mid 14's to prevent the new batteries from sulfating prematurely.
The following link has all the current info and more than you can possibly need on battery care, charging and maintenance.
It does the following, which I think is what landyacht318 is recommending and does it automaticaly.
Inteli-Power 4600 Series models can recharge the battery to 90% in 2-3 hours using our patented Charge Wizard technology.
The built-in Charge Wizard automatically selects one of four operating modes: BOOST, NORMAL, STORAGE, DESULFATION.
BOOST Mode 14.4 Volts - Rapidly brings RV battery up to 90% of full charge.
NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts - Safely completes the charge.
STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts - Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss.
DESULFATION Mode 14.4 Volts every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes to prevent battery stratification.
What appears to be missing is the 15.8 charge that you mention.
I have a 130 solar and also doubt it is enough and may be part of the problem. I thought I had my base covered with it.maspacifico - 9-22-2010 at 06:03 PM
Iflyfish....Your charge Wizard renamed Bulk, Absorb, Float, and Equalize! If you are watching what your charger does all the time, and want to change
it, I'm not sure you can select higher voltages, or increase times in each. But, if you aren't looking at the thing every couple days, those numbers
will probably work as well as anything, and those de-sulfators will probably do something for you because your batteries won't be charging at a high
level.
Everything I know I got from neighbors going through batteries.....and reading the solar forums. Lot of things on the forums I have no idea what
language they are talking, same with some of my neighbors. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the heck goes wrong with batteries, or, why some
last a long time and some die a short death. Sometimes they just go bad. And, it's funny, no one will come out and say it! It's usually one cell in a
battery that goes south. It's magic.
Anyway, if you've put in $2000 worth of batteries like I have, or a half million like Bob, you probably want more control. Almost all the expensive
charge controllers have, in my opinion, a limited amount of time spent in the Absorb phase as their default. I used an Outback controller with 4
Costco batteries for four years and I was happy but when I jumped to 800 amp hours of batteries I could tell it wasn't in Absorb long enough. It's
one of those things you have to play around with to see what keeps your charge rate up without losing too much water.
And, if the heavens align properly, and you don't draw down your batteries to low, and it's 72.5 degrees out, and the tilt of your panel is aligned
properly with the sun, and it's the third Thursday in the month.......you still need more panels. The key to keeping the batteries charged and not
getting bogged down is a fast charge capability. Not sure how old you are but I know that, barring a hurricane taking them out, my panels will
outlive me. Batteries die...panels don't.Bob and Susan - 9-22-2010 at 07:13 PM
"rule of thumb"
200w panel for every 6 volt batterylandyacht318 - 9-22-2010 at 07:42 PM
Equalization is not required often. It can be hard on a battery, causing more plate shedding, and boils off more water. Some manufacturers say every
7 cycles to 50% Depth of Discharge, others say monthly, some say only when you use a quality hydrometer and notice a certain disparity between the
cells in the battery/bank.
While an inexpensive Hydrometer is good at comparing cell to cell it cannot really be too accurate for determining state of charge.
Apparently Francis Freas hydrometers are the best available, and they are fragile. Using temperature compensation with these is apparently the only
99.9% accurate way to determine when flooded batteries reach full charge. Then you have the tools to determine what your battery bank requires to
best bring them up into the green.
Having a Solar charge controller with battery temperature sensing is very desirable, in my opinion.
Having an amp hour counter is another great battery monitoring tool, but it must be checked occasionally against the hydrometer.
Over on RV net they are talking about the desirability of the old manual chargers, because some have the ability to bring the charging voltages into
the high 15's given enough time. Today's 3 or 4 stage smart chargers usually will not exceed 14.4, or sometimes 14.8, and they might not remain up
there long enough until reverting to float voltage. 13.2 to 13.6, which is also temperature dependent.
I know my old manual Schumacher would do 15.4 volts. I can program my solar controller to go into the high 15's, but the batteries must already be
fully charged by midday for it to have enough current to hold 15.8 volts.
Like Automobiles cannot have too many grounds, an off grid system can not have too many solar panels, and it is cheaper to conserve electricity than
to produce it.Iflyfish - 9-23-2010 at 05:41 AM
I appreciate all the thoughtful posts. I am learning a lot and see I need more solar.....what's new?
Off to BC for some trout! Down Baja early next month.
Iflyfishsnorklebob - 9-23-2010 at 07:00 AM
A bit off topic but maybe it can help someone. I have 12-T105 Trogens. On two different occasions I had one battery fail and stop the others from
fully charging. So of coarse I had to take 2 batteries off of my 12volt system. The suspect battery would only charge to about 4.2 volts on a separate
charger. This meant I had one dead cell out of 3. I thought it was build up at the bottom causing a short and so I had nothing to loose by playing
with it . So, I shook the 'S%&t' out of them and I guess it evened out the debris at the bottom and they are both working 2yrs later. Something
to try. Hope this works for someone else.MitchMan - 9-23-2010 at 07:26 AM
Anybody know what the average cost of a KWH is using solar panels? I know it has got to be a range of cost/KWH as everybody's experience will vary.
Anybody ever calculate the cost in USD of a KWH over time for powering a small home with solar panels and batteries and battery chargers? You know, a
comprehensive cost analysis that includes all costs, using depreciation lives determined by actual hardware life experience, installation and even the
cost of recharging the batteries, etc.
[Edited on 9-23-2010 by MitchMan]larryC - 9-23-2010 at 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Charge to 13.5, now have "inteli charger" that varies charge. 130 solar panel.
Great discussion link ncampion, thanks.
Iflyfish
Iflyfish
As others have said, and you now realize, you are under paneled. I suspect that is contributing to your sulfation problems.
As Landyacht mentioned and as this link will verify http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance...
You should charge your batteries with at least 10% and as much as 13% of their amphour capacity, which in your case is 22.5amps to as much as 30amps.
(Figuring your bank is 225 amp hours.) Also 13.5 is too low a voltage. As the above link says the Trojan T 105's like to be charged to 14.8v.
Also a good way to tell when your batteries are fully charged is to monitor them with a batteriy meter like a Trimetric or similar, and as the charge
tapers down while in the absorb mode, when it finally tapers down to 1% of the amphour capacity of your bank (in your case 2.25amps) then you can
consider them fully charged and your controller then could be switched to a float charge. You will find that very few people acually charge their
batteries using these parameters but this is what the manufacturer recommends. Over at Northern Arizona Wind and Sun forum most of the guys recommend
5% to 10 to 13%, but in general you are better off spending your money on more panels than more batteries.
Hope this helps,
Larry
PS On the NAWS forum my username is rplarrywessongroup - 9-23-2010 at 09:39 AM
You guys... are such a wealth of information and knowledge .... WOW thanks so much... getting things back out on the drawing board... numbers are
looking pretty good.. at this time... will be checking out NAWS... thanks again...BajaGringo - 9-23-2010 at 01:26 PM
They aren't for everybody but if you live in a high wind area like we do a wind turbine goes a long way to keep your batteries from discharging too
much at night. We have been so happy with the first one we installed that we are in the process of adding a second one now...Bob and Susan - 9-23-2010 at 01:30 PM
BajaGringo i cant hear you...
the blades on the windmill are too loudBajaGringo - 9-23-2010 at 01:40 PM
I have read prior posts from you saying that Bob but this one you can hardly hear at all, even in the 30+ mph gusts the other day (which were putting
out so many amps the solar feed via my Xantrex shut down!)
The waves on the beach below make much more noise and it is such a joy to see a constant 5 to 10 amps going into my battery bank late at night while
your panels are asleep.
I don't feel guilty at all turning the music up...
[Edited on 9-23-2010 by BajaGringo]Bob and Susan - 9-23-2010 at 01:43 PM
i know...you're correct
i really need one to "test out"BajaGringo - 9-23-2010 at 01:52 PM
Like I said, they aren't for everybody. If you just get some good wind on some days it probably won't pan out for you. We have wind here probably 90%
of the time or more it seems like. Extremely rare when we don't see our turbine spinning although it does need to be about 10 knots to begin putting
out any power. The good news is that the ratio of increase in power to wind speed is cubed, so a little more wind is a lot more power.
Another suggestion I make is to throw away the cheap controller that comes with most of the turbines today and buy a good diversion unit from somebody
like Coleman Air. Keep your wind and solar feed controllers separate.
On our "worst" day here we got 1.2 kW from the turbine which is good enough for me. A second unit can only help I figure...
YMMVBob and Susan - 9-23-2010 at 01:56 PM
for us simpletons...
YMMV="Your mileage may vary"snorklebob - 9-24-2010 at 05:46 AM
Hola, I have a 400X[Watt] wind turbine in Punta Chivato and it is almost silent. Almost. Our next door neighbor had an older one and it was quite
noisy. They have come a long way and I am very happy with the additional output to my PV system.
