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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Battery Saver
There was a recent thread on batteries. In that thread Comitan mentioned a Battery Saver that can restore and maintain the condition of lead/acid
batteries. I have done some research and found some very good reviews of this product. I have purchased one for our motor home, 2 deep cycle 6 volt
batteries. There are Savers for various configurations. I contacted them to insure that the sensitive electronics in our motor home would be safe. I
was assured that they would.
For more information I would recommend a Google search on the technology. Mine cost $119, cheap in the long run.
Like many others here I have run into a problem with battery sulfate buildup, this does not allow the battery to hold a deep charge. I have done some
research on this issue and a friend who lives in Baja and uses a lot of batteries for his solar system recommended this product. It separates the lead
sulfates back into lead and sulfuric acid allowing the battery to generate and maintain a deep charge. I would encourage you to do some research on
this product, it looked too good to be true, but there is a lot of good info on it online. I purchased one for Our View
NEW Battery Life Saver 12 volt desulfator 12V BLS-12A
Web Address: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=33047...
Item number: 330473886567
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=33047...
Iflyfish
’06 View H
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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Iflyfish
Very good report, but I might add there are many desulfators out there on ebay and other sites that I think work just as well and a lot cheaper, there
also forums and sites on how to build your own.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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$119?
a new 6 volt battery can be had for $90ea
since you only have 2
i'd rather get new batteries
not needed
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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My batteries are $150 apiece and this is the second set for me. I believe Comitan is right, can find the device cheaper or build. I have a bit of a
time crunch so went for this model. It is the technology that is interesting to me.
I am not selling these things, just offering info on what is a new technology to me and could be of some use to folks dependant upon battery power.
Iflyfish
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Bob and Susan
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Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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i would be more interested in why they are sulfating...
maybe they need a higher charge
factory settings on charge controlers are set too low
you need to raise this up
the manufacturer does this to "protect" the controller
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Iflyfish
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This is part of the problem. Batteries do need attention or they will sulfate. In our case I thought our solar would provide enough charge to keep the
batteries charge, it did indeed do that, however sulfation occured so I sit with two $150 batteries that won't hold a deep charge. This has happened
twice. I have now changed out our charger to one that provides "inteli" charging, it pulses periodically to break up the lead sulphate.
Battery maintenance is a challenge for someone like me, who is not that mechanicaly minded or skilled. So anything that makes that task easier is good
for me.
I have found good golf cart batteries at Costco for hald of what my Trojan 105's cost, but it was cheaper to lay out $120 on a technology that might
rejuvenate my batteries and make them last a long time. I have read on this site reports of people who have had batteries last six - ten years! That
sounds good to me.
I also discharged my batteries below 11.5 and that contributed to the problem, this happened after they had begun sulfating, so that compounded the
problem no doubt, as well as many other factors I am no doubt ignorant about.
Save the whales?!! Hell, save the batteries is my call!!
Hope to see you on our trip.
Iflyfish
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larryC
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Iflyfish
If I might ask, what voltage do you charge your batteries up to? And how many watts in solar panels do you have?
Larry
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ncampion
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I recently asked about this type of device on the AZ Sun-Wind forum and got the following response. These people really know about batteries and
charging. Don't expect too much from the device and you won't be disappointed.
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?p=65922#post6...
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Iflyfish
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Charge to 13.5, now have "inteli charger" that varies charge. 130 solar panel.
Great discussion link ncampion, thanks.
Iflyfish
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Bob and Susan
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try 14.1 to equalize and float at 13.5
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comitan
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Bob the "inteli charger charger does that, they are very smart.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
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Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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no they are factory set to a lower number
to "protect" the controler
you need to manually reset the equalize higher 14.1
and float to 13.5 on a 12v system
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comitan
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Bob we are talking about the new battery chargers.
Like the Schumacher SC7500A Electronic charger.
[Edited on 9-22-2010 by comitan]
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
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Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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off-the-shelf chargers dont raise
the charge high enough in the batteries
maybe that's why his are sulfating
if the battery is not completely charged it sulfates
you need to get 12 volt batteries to 14.1 to 14.5 not 13.1
my 24v system equalizes at 29.1 and floats at 27.1
a charger would only raise the voltage to 26.1
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comitan
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Bob the electronic charger gives a digital readout and I have seen 14.4 on my charger while charging the batteries then it goes down to 13.3 13.4.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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ok then it works...
my 12v "smart charger" doesnt have a read-out
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landyacht318
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I've been rather obsessive about keeping my deep cycles from sulfating. Basically any time you discharge the batteries, sulfate forms on the plates,
and the longer that sulfate remains, the harder it gets, and the harder it is for any charger to return that sulfate to the electrolyte.
I read a lot of battery posts over on the RV. net forums, and there is a former battery engineer in particular who lives full time in an RV in
mainland mexico who really knows his stuff.
I can imagine his response to this thread.
But basically you need abosrption voltages in the mid 14's to be able to fully charge a battery. That voltage is the only way to overcome the internal
resistance within the battery and top it off.
Of course, absorption voltages vary with temperature and battery make.
What has not yet been mentioned in this thread is equalization, which is an intentional overcharge. It is designed to bring all the cells in the
battery to the same specific gravity, with voltages up around 15.9 volts. This high voltage also acts to remove the sulfates, either dissolving them
back into the electrolyte, or allowing them to shed off the plates and collect on the bottom, but exposing fresh plate material, restoring some
capacity.
The problem with shedding the hardened sulfates is it builds up on the bottom and eventually will short out the cell rendering the battery useless,
and if batteries are in parallel, the shorted one will quickly destroy the other.
6 volt golf cart batteries , being taller, have more room under the plates, so more material can shed before they short out.
Now there also is the 5 to 13% rule, meaning a 100 amp hour battery should be charged at a minimum of 5 amps during the bulk phase. If this minimum
amperage is not met the battery likely will not be full charged, and chronic undercharging leads to sulfation, and premature battery death.
I have 130 watts for 230 a/h of battery, which is well below 5%. My monitor claims that the solar is capable or returning all the amp hours I use.
BUT, when I use a 25 amp charger to recharge the batteries, I can tell that the batteries will hold a higher voltage overnight than if the solar
attempted the task by itself.
Crown, the maker of my deep cycle 12 volts wants 20 amps at 14.5 volts per 115 a/h battery. When I have borrowed an additional charger to meet this 40
amp bulk charging requirement, the batteries acted like they were brand new again for a couple days.
With too little solar, you might be able to mitigate usage, and even fully charge a battery given enough time, and having solar is great overall for
battery health, but unless you have enough solar to meet the 5% rule, you batteries will always be a little hungry, sulfate early and die. You should
have enough solar to be able to equalize the batteries, meaning you can program the controller to go up to near 16 volts for about 2 hours. Every 12
volt appliance should be disconnected from the battery for this procedure so as to not damage electronics with too much voltage, and to keep the
voltage at 15.8.
There are lots of threads who claim the pulse desulfator chargers are worthless, others who think the opposite and post results proving their point.
I have used them on older batteries and was able to convince myself they did do something, but a week later I was back where I started, and a couple
weeks after that I was searching for some true Deep cycle batteries as replacements.
If you need a charger anyway, get one that can meet the charging requirements listed by you battery manufacturer. If you are only getting a
desulpating charger to try and recondition your current batteries, my opinion is you will be better off with new batteries, and more solar and an
absorption voltage setpoint in the mid 14's to prevent the new batteries from sulfating prematurely.
The following link has all the current info and more than you can possibly need on battery care, charging and maintenance.
http://www.batteryfaq.org/
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
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best answer... landyacht318...
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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Good one landyacht318, I appreciate the clarity. This battery business is complicated and I am learning, steep learning curve.
This is the charger I got, Progressive Dynamics Intelli-power 4655. I paid around $240 for it.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd4600_converter_replacement.h...
It does the following, which I think is what landyacht318 is recommending and does it automaticaly.
Inteli-Power 4600 Series models can recharge the battery to 90% in 2-3 hours using our patented Charge Wizard technology.
The built-in Charge Wizard automatically selects one of four operating modes: BOOST, NORMAL, STORAGE, DESULFATION.
BOOST Mode 14.4 Volts - Rapidly brings RV battery up to 90% of full charge.
NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts - Safely completes the charge.
STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts - Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss.
DESULFATION Mode 14.4 Volts every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes to prevent battery stratification.
What appears to be missing is the 15.8 charge that you mention.
I have a 130 solar and also doubt it is enough and may be part of the problem. I thought I had my base covered with it.
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maspacifico
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Iflyfish....Your charge Wizard renamed Bulk, Absorb, Float, and Equalize! If you are watching what your charger does all the time, and want to change
it, I'm not sure you can select higher voltages, or increase times in each. But, if you aren't looking at the thing every couple days, those numbers
will probably work as well as anything, and those de-sulfators will probably do something for you because your batteries won't be charging at a high
level.
Everything I know I got from neighbors going through batteries.....and reading the solar forums. Lot of things on the forums I have no idea what
language they are talking, same with some of my neighbors. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the heck goes wrong with batteries, or, why some
last a long time and some die a short death. Sometimes they just go bad. And, it's funny, no one will come out and say it! It's usually one cell in a
battery that goes south. It's magic.
Anyway, if you've put in $2000 worth of batteries like I have, or a half million like Bob, you probably want more control. Almost all the expensive
charge controllers have, in my opinion, a limited amount of time spent in the Absorb phase as their default. I used an Outback controller with 4
Costco batteries for four years and I was happy but when I jumped to 800 amp hours of batteries I could tell it wasn't in Absorb long enough. It's
one of those things you have to play around with to see what keeps your charge rate up without losing too much water.
And, if the heavens align properly, and you don't draw down your batteries to low, and it's 72.5 degrees out, and the tilt of your panel is aligned
properly with the sun, and it's the third Thursday in the month.......you still need more panels. The key to keeping the batteries charged and not
getting bogged down is a fast charge capability. Not sure how old you are but I know that, barring a hurricane taking them out, my panels will
outlive me. Batteries die...panels don't.
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