BajaNomad - US Drug War Aid in Mexico

US Drug War Aid in Mexico

LancairDriver - 11-1-2010 at 06:18 AM

Hope this helps the effort.

NORTHCOM's "Campaign Framework": US Northern Command, backing Mexico's forces against violent drug traffickers, has devised a broad plan for the effort, says its commander. Adm. James Winnefeld last week told a National Homeland Defense Foundation conference in Colorado Springs, Colo., that he has presented for US interagency review "the outline of a campaign framework by which we can approach this problem." It takes into account not only the US-Mexico border, but also Mexico's southern border, its seaward approaches, and Central and South America. He provided few details during his Oct. 29 remarks, but noted, "I would tell you candidly that I believe the decisive theaters in this struggle are inside the United States, and inside Mexico. We have to get a handle on weapons and money flowing south in Mexico. We also need to get a handle on our own drug demand, and, at the same time, we need to help our partners."

"Battle for Future of Mexico": As drug violence in Mexico has flared, the US military has grown active, providing the Mexican forces with equipment, training, and intelligence. US Northern Command's commander, Adm. James Winnefeld, speaking in Colorado Springs, Colo., warned that Mexico is in a war "and we ought to do everything we can to help them win it." He called Mexico City "courageous" for taking on the criminal organizations, despite the resulting violence. Winnefeld: "The government of Mexico has decided to take this problem on, and they didn't have to do it. They could have backed off and let things lie the way they were, but they have decided that this is a battle for the future of Mexico." He noted in his Oct. 29 address, that, despite historic political sensitivities, "they've asked for our help in certain areas," and that "we are doing everything we can to help . . . in the right way."

durrelllrobert - 11-1-2010 at 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
He noted in his Oct. 29 address, that, despite historic political sensitivities, "they've asked for our help in certain areas," and that "we are doing everything we can to help . . . in the right way."

....which is :?:

sancho - 11-1-2010 at 04:55 PM

Wasn't the WAR ON DRUGS started back in
the Nixon days? And the success of that
was what?

toneart - 11-1-2010 at 05:02 PM

Vague, and nothing new. :no:

BillP - 11-1-2010 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert

Quote:

....which is :?:

Throw money at it like we've always done.

DavidE - 11-1-2010 at 05:14 PM

Heck, I know! Let's all buy a few ounces and pretend like the proceeds are going to the American Cancer Society. American consumers of things illicit could care less if their recreation burns a thousand babies at the stake. The What Me Worry Crowd is about as sensitive as a rock. What a shame.

mcfez - 11-1-2010 at 05:14 PM

Yeah.....I remember San Francisco running a special drug enforcement....lots of talk...bla bla bla

Didnt make one dent in the drug business.

More drugs in my clubs than booze!

Oh Nixon's declaration...I remember that too..same time as the politicians said "we're going to fix the schools" :-) Zzzzzzzzzz

Either legalize all the stuff......or take the dealers straight out to the wall and shoot em.....

But...my grand kids be reading the same ol news as I did 35 years ago.....nothing seems to move in this country.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by mcfez]

LancairDriver - 11-1-2010 at 05:23 PM

Rumor has it in DEA circles that a Predator unmanned air program similar to the one being waged in Northern Pakistan is being discussed with the Mexican Government. One minute the Narco's are gathered enjoying fish tacos and cervesa's and planning the next massacre, the next they are vaporized. Probably won't happen for political reasons, but would be very effective if it did.

ramuma53 - 11-5-2010 at 11:12 AM

To combat the drug traffic you have to understand the foundations.
Drug trafficking is not new and is caused because of the law of offer and demand, you can close an avenue and another will open right away and in that sense, the war on drugs as it is now, it is lost already. A law is named a law because it always happen that way, you cannot circumvent it.
That mean, that you have to end the demand for drugs before the supply end, any other way, it will just find another route and every American politician know that, but that mean that they are just playing with that problem.
In Mexico, everybody said, --it is for the Gringos, let them kill themselves—but as soon as 1990 some people, me among others, were warning about the Mexico´s Colombianization and that mean the takeover of Mexico by the drug cartels, but nobody listened.
At this time Mexico arrived to that state of affairs, it is colombianizated and the effects are:
Mexico is now a drug user.
Mexico is now a war zone.
Mexico political establishment is now under menace.
Mexico´s drug traffickers are now among the richest people on earth, cited now as some of the most influential people in the world Chapo Guzman. They are now controlling East Europe and North Africa.
All that power need money and from where do you think the money is coming? Yes you are right the USA.
This claim to the top of the world has occurred in the past 9 years and that is the time PAN political party has been in power in Mexico and I am not saying that they are the drug traffickers, only that they lost control.
That is why Calderon the now Mexico´s president, initiated the war on drugs, he is fighting for the political class security and not winning at all, also trying to correct the President Fox mistake of letting them take over.
The options:
1.- Legalize drugs to take away the money from the traffickers.- That mean we will have now two countries hooked on drugs, USA and Mexico and that is not a light problem, that would create a huge market, but, creativity, efficiency and work capacity will drop more. Just see the USA, a few years back it was on top of everything, now it is among the 8 to 10 th. in everything, it is clearly going down. Mexico being one of the most dynamic countries in Latin America are among the worst in economical performance but at the same time has some of the richest people in the world; is that what we want?????
2.- Declare a world war on drugs.- Drug traffickers are not a clear enemy, they are among the policeman, among the politicians, the drug traffickers are just the fronts; some say that drug wars can be won with more guns and training and money but just see Colombia, it now has American military bases and American military are fighting there too and Cocaine traffik is the same as always.
3.- Continue as it was a few years ago.- PRI political party whose comeback now seem inevitable, managed that problem for years, in that era, drug traffic existed but was under control by Mexican intelligence together with the American CIA, they can control the problem and make it invisible; no more dead people on the streets, they will exist, but will be buried in secret; any drug trafficker that break the silence code will just disappear and no drug trafficker will be allowed among the richest people in the world or among the most influential people; you will say that as a solution, but silence rarely is a solution, it is only a cover up. Anyway it is the future I think will happen in the next 8 years.
As you see, there are no solutions because it has no solution but the first one and that is to end demand of drugs, now just pick your choice and remember how China controlled its opium drug problem, the Opium wars against England while killing every drug user and trafficker. Are we going that way???????

Cypress - 11-5-2010 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
Yeah.....I remember San Francisco running a special drug enforcement....lots of talk...bla bla bla

Didnt make one dent in the drug business.

More drugs in my clubs than booze!

Oh Nixon's declaration...I remember that too..same time as the politicians said "we're going to fix the schools" :-) Zzzzzzzzzz

Either legalize all the stuff......or take the dealers straight out to the wall and shoot em.....

But...my grand kids be reading the same ol news as I did 35 years ago.....nothing seems to move in this country.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by mcfez]

Yep!

DENNIS - 11-5-2010 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
Probably won't happen for political reasons,

It could if they didn't have to get ACLU approval every time they unzip their pants. Why do they have to tell everybody everything before they do it?
Just do it, then deny it, then do it again...and again.

toneart - 11-5-2010 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
To combat the drug traffic you have to understand the foundations.
Drug trafficking is not new and is caused because of the law of offer and demand, you can close an avenue and another will open right away and in that sense, the war on drugs as it is now, it is lost already. A law is named a law because it always happen that way, you cannot circumvent it.
That mean, that you have to end the demand for drugs before the supply end, any other way, it will just find another route and every American politician know that, but that mean that they are just playing with that problem.
In Mexico, everybody said, --it is for the Gringos, let them kill themselves—but as soon as 1990 some people, me among others, were warning about the Mexico´s Colombianization and that mean the takeover of Mexico by the drug cartels, but nobody listened.
At this time Mexico arrived to that state of affairs, it is colombianizated and the effects are:
Mexico is now a drug user.
Mexico is now a war zone.
Mexico political establishment is now under menace.
Mexico´s drug traffickers are now among the richest people on earth, cited now as some of the most influential people in the world Chapo Guzman. They are now controlling East Europe and North Africa.
All that power need money and from where do you think the money is coming? Yes you are right the USA.
This claim to the top of the world has occurred in the past 9 years and that is the time PAN political party has been in power in Mexico and I am not saying that they are the drug traffickers, only that they lost control.
That is why Calderon the now Mexico´s president, initiated the war on drugs, he is fighting for the political class security and not winning at all, also trying to correct the President Fox mistake of letting them take over.
The options:
1.- Legalize drugs to take away the money from the traffickers.- That mean we will have now two countries hooked on drugs, USA and Mexico and that is not a light problem, that would create a huge market, but, creativity, efficiency and work capacity will drop more. Just see the USA, a few years back it was on top of everything, now it is among the 8 to 10 th. in everything, it is clearly going down. Mexico being one of the most dynamic countries in Latin America are among the worst in economical performance but at the same time has some of the richest people in the world; is that what we want?????
2.- Declare a world war on drugs.- Drug traffickers are not a clear enemy, they are among the policeman, among the politicians, the drug traffickers are just the fronts; some say that drug wars can be won with more guns and training and money but just see Colombia, it now has American military bases and American military are fighting there too and Cocaine traffik is the same as always.
3.- Continue as it was a few years ago.- PRI political party whose comeback now seem inevitable, managed that problem for years, in that era, drug traffic existed but was under control by Mexican intelligence together with the American CIA, they can control the problem and make it invisible; no more dead people on the streets, they will exist, but will be buried in secret; any drug trafficker that break the silence code will just disappear and no drug trafficker will be allowed among the richest people in the world or among the most influential people; you will say that as a solution, but silence rarely is a solution, it is only a cover up. Anyway it is the future I think will happen in the next 8 years.
As you see, there are no solutions because it has no solution but the first one and that is to end demand of drugs, now just pick your choice and remember how China controlled its opium drug problem, the Opium wars against England while killing every drug user and trafficker. Are we going that way???????

This is a good analysis of the situation! As for your last paragraph, the answer is No! We are not going that way. However, when the winning, most powerful cartel becomes integrated into the government as part of the PRI, they will kill every other drug trafficker.

ramuma53 - 11-5-2010 at 12:15 PM

If we say, the past is a clue to the future, PRI was effectively controlling the traffic and at that time, 1985, Marijuana traffic was Mexico´s second exportation item to the USA, just under oil.
It worked from 1965 and for years and years, until a political event moved every balance.
Mexico started to support the Contras in Nicaragua, against the USA, lending them oil, then USA politicians just said, Ok, you help our enemies, I will close your second exportation item and the war on drugs initiated catching Rafael Caro Quintero because of the Camarena DEA agent killing, but the balance was upset and since that time, control was lost, because those disciplined drug lords, were the ones keeping the Pease among the drug traffickers, they took them away and every small drug trafficker created their own cartel, out of government control and started to fight for control among them, then you have the actual drug wars in Mexico.
Another part of the control was that it was operated as a concession, the government gave you permission to traffic in only one area, Caro Quintero for Marijauana, Cochiloco for Heroin, Miguel Felix Gallardo for Cocaine, all drug lords, but compadres among themselves, no fights; if the USA said, I want to slow cocaine traffic, they just said it to Mexico´s government, then they ordered the specific drug lord and cocaine traffic was slowed and everybody was happy, but with the war on drugs they took away those disciplined drug lords and the concession system, now drug lords under PAN pay for an area, and they can commit any crime there, with impunity, then they said, Ok why not kidnapping, why not extortion and they started to charge every small criminal to allow them to use their area, an area they were paying for and you made them territorial animals who kill everyone who enter their area and that is what you see today in Mexico; who started that? Both Mexico´s and American politicians; who can correct it? The same people who started it, but not the drug problem, only the violence less drug traffic.
Now, we have drugs on every small town in Mexico, most policeman are on the take, they catch them from police school and the ones who resist are killed and that is why a lot of police cadets are killed in Tijuana, the money from the drug cartels come as wage and is bigger than the city´s wage; then who are the drug traffickers? The policeman, the politicians or the ones who pay for all.
How are you going to drop a bomb on a drug trafficker? The same way you are dropping it on Obama Bin Laden? A predator can kill only what it can see and drug traffickers are among you normal people.
It is impossible now to evade the near future, PRI will take over government in Mexico, statistical analysis say it clear; who will take over PRI is more important now because a return to the past will calm people but will have to start with a bigger war that will have to kill every actual drug lord so new more malleable ones take over and then calm again, but no end for the drug trafficking.

DavidE - 11-5-2010 at 01:33 PM

Predator aircraft have been entering Mexican airspace with permission since 2007. They are based at McDill AFB. Their mission is intelligence gathering and mapping. A Big Bird is gathering and relaying telecommunications to Ft. Meade Md. for analysis.

Mexico would never allow armed drones to pass into Mexican airspace under any circumstances. MQ-1 Predator aircraft have enhanced time on target capabilities, with endurance well over 36 hours. They are absolutely silent (less than -25db) at an altitude of 1,000 meters over target, and have color spectrum analysis capabilities that can deliniate one square inch of marijuana at that altitude. Multitasking allows the aircraft to gather cellular and satellite telephone transmissions and can triangulate and co-ordinate signal vectors to within one tenth of one meter.

Bajahowodd - 11-5-2010 at 01:40 PM

Return to the past with PRI? Don't overlook the fact that the genie is out of the bottle. How would the US DEA possibly accept such a solution? Mind you, I think the war on drugs is an abject failure. But, we've managed to develop a huge industry/ bureaucracy to fight the war. Don't these guys contemplating a career change any time soon. If anything, post-Calderon, relations between the US and Mexico might get very rocky.

LancairDriver - 11-5-2010 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Predator aircraft have been entering Mexican airspace with permission since 2007. They are based at McDill AFB. Their mission is intelligence gathering and mapping. A Big Bird is gathering and relaying telecommunications to Ft. Meade Md. for analysis.

Mexico would never allow armed drones to pass into Mexican airspace under any circumstances. MQ-1 Predator aircraft have enhanced time on target capabilities, with endurance well over 36 hours. They are absolutely silent (less than -25db) at an altitude of 1,000 meters over target, and have color spectrum analysis capabilities that can deliniate one square inch of marijuana at that altitude. Multitasking allows the aircraft to gather cellular and satellite telephone transmissions and can triangulate and co-ordinate signal vectors to within one tenth of one meter.

I wouldn't discount the possibility of armed Predator strikes in Mexico in the not to distant future given the level of the escalation of violence recently. The fact is that our military is showing more interest and the success of the Predator program in Pakistan is an indicator of the most successful terrorist eradication tool presently available. It is only a matter of time before the Narco's grease the wrong people (on either side of the border) and the gloves will come off. The present strategy of raiding the Narco's randomly with a military force has produced too many friendly casualties and with the corrupt Police tipping off the bad guys it results in no gain at all.
The psychological effect of being vaporized by something you can't see or hear in a hideout or driving in a car previously assumed safe has a very sobering effect.
Also, who would they retaliate against? This kind of war can be fought with unseen warriors armed with a little intelligence on the ground.
The very existence of the Mexican government is now in jeopardy with the present situation, and you can bet this will not be allowed to happen.

DENNIS - 11-5-2010 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
I wouldn't discount the possibility of armed Predator strikes in Mexico in the not to distant future given the level of the escalation of violence recently.

That would be an act of war if initiated from our side without cooperation. Can you imagine how many ABC busses it would take to safely remove US expats from Mexico? You wouln't be driving your own vehicle through hostile territory and, given the green light, Mexicans will be hostile towards us.

Excellent idea!

Dave - 11-5-2010 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
remember how China controlled its opium drug problem, the Opium wars against England while killing every drug user and trafficker. Are we going that way???????

But there's no need to eliminate the traffickers. They're just providing the product.

DENNIS - 11-5-2010 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
But there's no need to eliminate the traffickers. They're just providing the product.

Is that a joke??

Cypress - 11-5-2010 at 02:58 PM

Just eliminate the customers! They're providing the market! :lol:

toneart - 11-5-2010 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver

Quote:

This is just my opinion. How would I know anything for sure?:

Mexico's government will take any form it wishes without U.S. intervention. It is a sovereign country. Political coersion by the U.S. will occur, but it is basically toothless.

The cartels hold the power. The democratic government that exists now has lost the War on Drugs. Mexico will become a hybrid political entity; the strongest cartel along with career politicians from powerful, wealthy families will emerge. The rival cartels will be quickly killed off or disappear and then the violence will stop. It will be business as usual, like the old days under the PRI.

Regarding predator drones, as was said, they already exist as spy craft over Mexico but they are not armed. To use armed drones creates too much collateral damage. As in Pakistan, they kill way too many innocent civilians. Being way over there, what we do there is basically invisible and all we know is what is reported in our corporate owned media.

If we used drone strikes in Mexico, it is too close to home and the horror would come home to roost. Mexicans are people we know. It has also been said here that the cartels are intermixed with civilians throughout the country. We just can't do that! It is logistically impossible and morally wrong!!!

If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the ones from The Middle East.

We humans are responsible for the atrocities we commit and WAR is as bad as anything we can conceive...no better than the horrible cartel violence.

No drugs at all

Stickers - 11-5-2010 at 03:25 PM

I was traveling around Sapin in the early 1970's. This was the thick of the hippie years and drugs were everywhere worldwide but NOT in Spain.

Franco was still president and there was vey serious law enforcement and punishment in effect. Civil Guards were on every street corner (millions of them) and they were quite serious.

I mention this because it looked like and felt like Mexico to me back then.
If you wanted to have a smoke you went to Morocco and did not bring any back!

There was no drug problem - many countries have negligible drug problems.

BajaBruno - 11-5-2010 at 03:31 PM

Not to question the authenticity of what you posted, LancairDriver, but I can't find a transcript anywhere that matches any of what you printed. What is the source of your original posting?

DENNIS - 11-5-2010 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the ones from The Middle East.

Good point, Tony. "Mi Tierra" will be a strong call for many.

LancairDriver - 11-5-2010 at 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
Not to question the authenticity of what you posted, LancairDriver, but I can't find a transcript anywhere that matches any of what you printed. What is the source of your original posting?

The daily e-report from the Air Force Assn. Posted the same day I received it.

k-rico - 11-5-2010 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
Rumor has it in DEA circles that a Predator unmanned air program similar to the one being waged in Northern Pakistan is being discussed with the Mexican Government. One minute the Narco's are gathered enjoying fish tacos and cervesa's and planning the next massacre, the next they are vaporized. Probably won't happen for political reasons, but would be very effective if it did.

Won't happen for political reasons???

How about it won't happen for moral, logical, and legal reasons.

If the American military starts killing Mexicans, even narcos, every American living in/visiting Mexico will become a target.

Please don't think Americans murdering Mexicans is a good idea!!

[Edited on 11-6-2010 by k-rico]

ramuma53 - 11-5-2010 at 06:49 PM

Toneart
Mexico's government will take any form it wishes without U.S. intervention. It is a sovereign country. Political coersion by the U.S. will occur, but it is basically toothless.

That would be a little naïve, Mexico only take the form the US allow in a very diplomatic way, as an example, First the USA would become a leftist than Mexico and it is the same history since the 1800, remember that the USA is the main source for funds for Mexico, be it oil, labor, marijuana, drugs or merchandise, about 80% is American trade, believe me, Mexico consult with the USA every move and the US certainly has teeth with Mexico, it is not always right like the war on drugs, but it has its tools.

The cartels hold the power. The democratic government that exists now has lost the War on Drugs. Mexico will become a hybrid political entity; the strongest cartel along with career politicians from powerful, wealthy families will emerge. The rival cartels will be quickly killed off or disappear and then the violence will stop. It will be business as usual, like the old days under the PRI.

Mexico government still hold the power and it will prevail, the US cannot allow or afford a 3000 mile border with a war zone, the war on drugs cannot be lost, everything would have been lost and I mean the US and Mexico and most of the world, Mafias exist as long as they are tolerated and at this time they are tolerated in the USA and Mexico, that has to change and will change because money has no meaning if you are afraid they will kill you and that is what happening now with the Mexican politicians. When things have to change and both countries agree they cannot tolerate any more and a strong hand will come and will placate all those small unruly drug lords and that time is coming, that has happened over and over in history and now the time is arriving in Mexico and it will happen, even the strong hand is showing in the PRI party

Regarding predator drones, as was said, they already exist as spy craft over Mexico but they are not armed. To use armed drones creates too much collateral damage. As in Pakistan, they kill way too many innocent civilians. Being way over there, what we do there is basically invisible and all we know is what is reported in our corporate owned media.

My friends, armed interventions in Mexico have happened time and time again, the last time it happened was in 1986 when a armed column went from the border all the way to Caborca in Sonora to try to capture one of Rafael Caro Quintero brothers, it was composed of tanks and helicopters, they raided a ranch but were unable to capture their target, the Mexican military did not move a finger and were filmed in Mexico and at their base, so do not worry about details, if it is needed, the American military will attack in Mexico or do you really believe that El Tigrillo from the Arellano Felix Cartel was captured in international waters? Near Loreto there are no international waters.

Concerning invisibility, the same have happened in Mexico and will happen again as many times as needed, but they have to want to do it and Mexico have to ask for it to cover the file and that time is approaching very soon or the strong hand will do it from Mexico´s government with USA help, covered or not.

If we used drone strikes in Mexico, it is too close to home and the horror would come home to roost. Mexicans are people we know. It has also been said here that the cartels are intermixed with civilians throughout the country. We just can't do that! It is logistically impossible and morally wrong!!!

Of course if you say it was a drone, but they will say it was a gas tank exploding or an attack from other cartel, that easy, but believe me, Mexicans are not naïve, they just are used to not say anything and more when the action is needed.

If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the ones from The Middle East.

No my friend, you will be thanked, not by everybody, and not publicly but by 99% of the population, the cartels are a problem for Mexicans mostly.

We humans are responsible for the atrocities we commit and WAR is as bad as anything we can conceive...no better than the horrible cartel violence.

No my friend the cartels are worst, they bring war to your family and business, Mexico now is like Chicago in the 20s, while wars are fought with soldiers far from home, At this time, Mexicans are being kidnapped in their homes, they have to pay protection, they are afraid to go to a disco, afraid to transit a highway, they kill their sons in the streets, their sons are becoming drug addicts, this is a war we need.

sanquintinsince73 - 11-5-2010 at 07:08 PM

Mexico's economy depends far too much on drug money. The reason Calderon initiated a "war" on drugs is because the cartel violence had escalated to a point where tourism dropped and the citizenry demanded action due to the violence. Every President from Jose Lopez Portillo to Vicente Fox allowed the cartels to work quietly for the most part. Everyone new that they were there and many in politics benefited. When cartels starting fighting over territory and murdering innocent civilians, that is when Calderon had to act.

sanquintinsince73 - 11-5-2010 at 07:12 PM

Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. Can anyone say collateral damage? Like someone posted, every American, not to mention Nomads, will have a target on their backs if we start killing Mexicans. I think the best thing to do is to pressure Calderon to allow us to destroy the amapola and pot fields and then do the same in Colombia with American pilots.

[Edited on 11-6-2010 by sanquintinsince73]

k-rico - 11-5-2010 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking???

Murdering people using remote control airplanes is wishful thinking?

Strange thoughts.

DENNIS - 11-5-2010 at 07:31 PM

This whole scenario is senseless. Just wait till they cross the border with drugs...then
do 'em.

Russ - 11-5-2010 at 07:43 PM

Well they've been "doing them" just fine on the Mexican side.

5 November 2010 Last updated at 21:42 ET
Mexico Gulf drug cartel leader Ezequiel Card##as killed
Ezequiel Card##as Guillen in US DEA photo Card##as died after a shoot-out lasting several hours.

A leader of Mexico's powerful Gulf drug cartel has been shot dead by security forces in a town near the US border, the Mexican military says.

Ezequiel Card##as Guillen, known as "Tony Tormenta", was killed in the city of Matamoros, across the border from Brownsville in Texas.

He is the brother of former Gulf cartel leader Osiel Card##as, who was extradited to the US in 2007.

Residents in Matamoros spoke of a shoot-out lasting for several hours.

Three suspected gunmen and two marines were also killed in the gun battle, according to federal security spokesman Alejandro Poire.

Card##as, 48, had been indicted in the US on drugs charges, and the US Drug Enforcement Administration was offering a reward of up to $5m for his arrest.

He was accused of smuggling tonnes of drugs across the US/Mexico border in the course of the past decade.

Friday's operation involved several hundred Mexican soldiers and marines, and local residents were trapped in shops and schools for extended periods.

Bridges across the international border into Texas were closed briefly, as the military used firearms and grenades to tackle suspected cartel members.

sanquintinsince73 - 11-5-2010 at 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking???

Murdering people using remote control airplanes is wishful thinking?

Strange thoughts.

Here we go again. I should have been more specific in my wishful thinking spiel. I am in favor, with Mexico's permission, of dropping even bags of rubber dog sh*t onto cartel leader's hideouts. With that comes collateral damage and as I stated, let's ruin the crops instead. Comprende K-rico??

Bajatripper - 11-5-2010 at 10:30 PM

Appreciate your insight on this, ramuma, and glad to be proven wrong on my earlier comment on a different thread that you are a one-issue Nomad.

toneart - 11-6-2010 at 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
Appreciate your insight on this, ramuma, and glad to be proven wrong on my earlier comment on a different thread that you are a one-issue Nomad.

I too appreciate your insight, Ramuma, even though I don't see it the way you do. As I said before, what do I know? Your knowledge of the Mexican people, as to what they will and won't do, is something I can not adamantly refute. I do think you are mistaken though, about that and about Mexico winning the War on Drugs. Oh, sure, they will kill off one drug lord or another. It is a war. Time will tell what the outcome will be.

You are right in that The U.S. has been very influential in Mexican politcal direction, and also a major benefactor of Mexico. But I think that the U.S. has too many problems of its own now to continue to make economic policy with Mexico a priority.

About the suggestion of drones remotely bombing cartels, you are the one who said the cartels are mixed in with ordinary people in every city, town and neighborhood. So how can you say that the Mexican people would thank us for bombing them? That is absurd.

A mentality that is myopic with prejudice does not allow for any flexibility. It renders one irrational.

On the turtle thread you confirmed my question that you believe every Nomad who disagrees with you is just mad because you are instrumental in eliminating their drug dealers. That too is absurd!

I have been following your obsessive campaign for some time and the discrepancies are many. I know Olivia and Mark but I don't know the side of them that you are alleging. I assure you that I am not a drug customer of theirs and I don't know anybody who is.

While I disagree with DavidK about most of his political attitudes, I think it is absurd of you to accuse him of being a drug customer. By reading his many posts through the years, even though we disagree, I feel he is an honorable, upstanding citizen. I do not get that feeling about you.

I do respect that what you believe is YOUR truth. I will continue to read your opinions with interest and would never try to discourage you to express your opinions. At the same time, I doubt seriously that we could ever see eye to eye.

Cypress - 11-6-2010 at 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. Can anyone say collateral damage? Like someone posted, every American, not to mention Nomads, will have a target on their backs if we start killing Mexicans.

[Edited on 11-6-2010 by sanquintinsince73]

The Mexicans are doing a perfectly good job of killing themselves. Seem to be getting better at it.

Killing The Bad Guys by Remote-Control

MrBillM - 11-6-2010 at 07:03 PM

Is COOL.

The Predators give new meaning to the old Sniper motto of "Reach out and Touch Someone".

It's just too bad that they don't have a few seconds of abject terror before their butts are blown to pieces.

Now, THAT would be cool.

ramuma53 - 11-7-2010 at 08:03 PM

Toneart
I did not mean that every Nomad who disagrees with me, is a drug addict, only that some of them are and it is difficult to say who, but I know some by sight and photos, but this is another thread, let us not go back.

Sometimes, illogical things come from desperate situations and terrorist are also among normal people, the fact, is that you have to act or suffer the consequences latter.
Mexico is that way and if you think that American military is new to acting in Mexico you are wrong, they have been doing it for decades and with the help of some Mexicans, policeman or not.
Calderon certainly is losing the war, but not with the cartels, but with political opposition; once PRI takes over, they will make a show on how it is done, to bring Mexico back to normal and that is to non violent drug trafficking, because drug trafficking can only be corrected in America, not in Mexico.

I am not part of PRI, I only recognize that it is inevitable now, that they take over in 2 years and yes, they have been putting gas on the fire for Calederon.

About bombing, it is only a way of talking; we are referring about all kinds surgical commando strikes; In Mexico there has been always Mexicans who recognize the problem and help the people fighting this war, being it Mexicans or even Americans and I know even English actions.

About being honorable I am certain you are honorable and decent people, but I know just too many, who are not and yes sometimes I make mistakes, I accept it.

Mexico is now paying its debt about not correcting the problem sooner, they were thinking that Mexico may just benefit from drug trafficking without becoming a user and they were wrong, it is clear now.

American get the nice end of the problem, they just get the drugs, handled by American cartels but in Mexico, the cartels have became part of every crime, kidnapping, robbery, extortion, killings for money, even highway armed robbery; they are no longer only drug traffickers bringing dollars to Mexico, they have become full time criminals, who take benefit of every kind of crime and that is hitting the politicians on the face, they no longer obey the government.

Just ask yourself, how is it possible that a war is going on in Mexico over drugs that go to the United States, where there is no war on drugs; where are the killed drug lords in America? or the big ones caught?, or the big drug catches like the 150 ton in Tijuana?

Calderon initiated an armed war on Mexican drug lords, because they no longer obey the government and Fox lost every kind of control, he did it with the hope of correcting the problem initiated by his political party excesive cooperation with the drug traffic industry, but the problem just exploded on him with the help of his political adversaries.
Mexican used to admire drug lords because they provided work and money while sending drugs only t America, now they hate them because they no longer provide money but dead and crime against Mexican, instead of spending the money they now lend it as loansharks; old drug lords were not that way but now they are and need control.

toneart - 11-8-2010 at 03:37 PM

Rumama,
Thank you for clarifying some of your previous statements. They allow me to understand your viewpoints, somewhat.

In your last post, are you saying that the cartels operating in Mexico are American? Well, Mexico is part of America, but do you mean to say they are cartels from the United States? Please clarify. That cannot be. :?:

ramuma53 - 11-10-2010 at 06:55 PM

Toneart
You are right; they are not the same, because you are still under the same mafia families than 60 years ago, the Gallo Family still control California, but they are both links on the same supply chain for the same product going to the USA.

Mexico used to change their drug lords every 5 to 7 years and only the best and most disciplined were able to survive 2 or 3 cycles, but that ended with the specific crime concession system.

Since Pan took over Baja California with Governor Ruffo, he was owned by only one cartel, the drug wars started and it went National; when the Pan party took over the presidency; President Fox just lost control and very small figures escalated on the drugs cartels and to do that, out of the traditional system sanctioned by the government, now out of the controls, they had to resort to extreme violence against each other; under Pan, lots and lots of hungry politicians started to accept drug money, thinking that PRI used to do it that way and they were all wrong, they did not take it that way or under those conditions, they took it as presents to the master, not as payment to the help.
PRI always maintained a controlled system, where drug lords were always and without exception under the government spell and at the minimal disciplinary problem, they just changed them putting them in jail or in the cementery; it was a master slave relationship, never a partnership; that was the Mexican way of maintaining order; nobody fought nobody, because they had a master controlling the situation and if a big catch happened, they knew they would be compensated some other way, no object in killing anybody; violence was reserved only to smaller drug operators who violated any crime law but never between drug lords, they were all compadres and made big parties together. Now, in Tijuana the Army captured 150 tons of marijuana and next they on the police frequency, all the police and city officials were sentenced to death and they executed 17 guys to start.

Then, If the Mexico´s government was pressed by the USA government, they just talked to the right guy, who suspended operations or slowed down without a question, no matter how much he lost, if he was disciplined, he will just make a lot more and survived or may even go to jail for a while with all luxuries included; also they were very concurrent with the government needs; when the peso was devaluated, big amount of dollars were deposited in Mexican bank accounts changing them to devaluated pesos, to help the peso, it was a symbiotic Master slave relationship, recognizing the fact that it was the second export business, under oil but over tourism.
All that relationship went away with PAN, who just accepted money and took them in, not as master to slaves or even as partners, they became their tools, 180 degree turn, and now, they do not want to go back to being slaves, now one of them, has been cited as one of the 10 most influential people in the world, Chapo Guzman, just beside the Pope and Carlos Slim; now they control part of Europe and Africa, they went transnational, they feel bigger than the president himself; do you think they would want to go back in the bottle? Even if PRI takes over, but, PRI know how and have a lot of relationships on that world, old people who know that being in the spot is not the way of doing business.
Now, this will not be, just a Mexican problem, if the world let them, they will certainly control the world, or at least that is what they think, what you see now in Mexico is one cartel trying to control the whole Mexico, after controling Sout America, it is like as if one of the American families tried to take over the whole USA and Mexico, a war will erupt all over America and believe me, if they do not stop those guys, they will control first the rest of East Europe, then Europe and Asia and then America; remember Hitler when he started, he was not very important and had a lot less money that those guys right now while on violence, he was a wimp if you compare him to Chapo Guzman.
While the money to finance all that, comes from the richest nation in the world, up to now, the USA, whose people are just enjoying their product and not jet the consequences.
It sounds like a James Bond movie? If you knew what really happen in the world every day, that won´t sound that far away and the dangers are real, like Hitler was real and went unnoticed until it was too late, they are just too money related to the guys who control the economical world and they do not care about you or me.

WOW!

toneart - 11-11-2010 at 06:17 AM

I need to consult our in house visionary, gnukid.

ramuma53 - 11-11-2010 at 09:18 AM

Toneart
Here you do not need a visionary, it is normal coffe talk on the ¨Consejo Nacional de Seguridad y Justicia¨or National counsel on Security and Justice, that is normal knowledge while the way of correcting the problem is subject to conferences and secret meetings.
Rememeber that in Mexico we are not visionaries, but we used to know who would be the new president months in advance, like now I can tell you that PRI will clearly win over PAN and PRD will end up in a distant third place

wessongroup - 11-11-2010 at 08:39 PM

Thanks for sharing your insight.... think your more right than wrong... as it is your country after all... I'm just a visitor ....

ramuma53 - 11-13-2010 at 08:13 AM

wessongroup

I agree with you, that you are a visitor in Mexico, but, you come from the conuntry that is the final destination for all those drugs and the source for all the money that finace the terror and if you all see it that way, then we may start to think the way it is needed to start correcting that problem, that show in diferent ways along the chain of distribution, from the source to the final consumer.
It is not as easy as to think it is just a Mexico´s problem because mexicans are killing mexicans, there has been 89 American deaths in the Chihuahua area this year alone, also just count how many deaths are in America caused by drugs, how many man hours are lost to the drug incapacitating effects and how much money is spent on those drugs by Americans and finally, how much it has and is contribuiting to the America slide down fromt the top.
Most people just say, it is a problem to big to be corrected or affected by me, but any day the problem will reach your door, and become a personal problem, its statistical, it is a matter of time.
We are all just a statistical number and any person is powerless to do anything, only through understanding and changing peoples minds about a problem it may be corrected, or that, or the China´s way, but it will be corrected anyway.

redEmuNug - 12-4-2010 at 09:49 PM

Marijuana was illegalized during the depression for the sole purpose of deporting every Mexican. Possessing marijuana was punishable by deportation so they said every Mexican was in possession and loaded them up and took them back to Mexico.

DENNIS - 12-4-2010 at 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redEmuNug
Marijuana was illegalized during the depression for the sole purpose of deporting every Mexican. Possessing marijuana was punishable by deportation so they said every Mexican was in possession and loaded them up and took them back to Mexico.

All of them? Man...that had to be one bigass bus.
Where do you get this nonsense?

sanquintinsince73 - 12-4-2010 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

What the hell are you on, dude? Lay of the crack pipe Homie.

motoged - 12-4-2010 at 10:35 PM

Seenyour....you are fool of sheet.... :lol:

Quote:

How to stop a dope head............

mcfez - 12-19-2010 at 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Just eliminate the customers! They're providing the market! :lol:

When we landed in Singapore, Malaya, there were signs in dozens of languages as well as graphic cartoons,which said "put any drugs you have in these boxes signposted and no further action will be taken", ANY drugs still on you after customs will result in the Death penalty. Very clear and simple.

Greece: possession of even small quantities of drugs can lead to lengthy and even life imprisonment

South East Asia: sentences of 40 to 50 years are not uncommon

BajaGringo - 12-19-2010 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Just eliminate the customers! They're providing the market! :lol:

When I was working in Sumatra I would fly into Singapore on a regular basis. I remember those signs very well.

I also recall seeing a few folks who stood there reading them for what seemed to be a very long time. I can only imagine what was going through their heads as they possibly contemplated whether or not to take the chance?