BajaNomad - Questions for experienced tin boaters

Questions for experienced tin boaters

Alan - 11-28-2010 at 09:22 AM

I am looking for a boat to just keep in La Paz but it will need to be something light enough to tow with a Jeep Wrangler. I have been looking very closely at something like a Bayrunner in the 18-21' range and definitely something with a 4 stroke outboard. My dilemna is that I have absolutely zero experience with aluminum boats.

My first concern is with the ride and handling characteristics of such a light boat when winds pick up as they do nearly everyday in that area. (My primary area would be the Muertos/Cerralvo/88 area)

Even more important however is what specific things should I be looking for when evaluating this type of boat. Ie; what problems have you experienced, potential problem areas, etc.

Any and all assistance would be greatly appreciated

tin boat

luckyman - 11-28-2010 at 10:40 AM

i have a 22 bayrunner with a 90 4 stroke honda. bayrunners are pretty seaworthy boats, but not the smoothest ride in windy/rough conditions. i was out in september when the water on the soc went from glass to 5' wind waves in a matter of 1 hour...we were only a couple of miles out, but the pucker factor kicked in and we headed back to the beach.
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom first. if you can look under the deck before you buy, look also for cracked welds or structural problems, especially in the front 1/3 of the hull where the beating takes place.
if i had it to do all over again, i might have waited until a good used fiberglass hull came along...until then, i'll choose my days on the water carefully and keep an eye on the horizon. good luck with your search.

Pescador - 11-28-2010 at 07:33 PM

Bayrunners and Klamath boats have a challenge in that the back of the boat is flat and the front of the boat has a pronounced V. When you go down wind on a quartering basis the back end will skid slightly since it is flat and has not much directional stability. When the front end hits the wave in front of it, the front wants to quickly go in a different direction which can cause some real problems if you encounter this in pretty rough seas. Those that have lots of experience in these boats learn quickly how to trim the boat and how to handle rear quartering seas. These boats are also subject to some flex problems if you use them a lot in rough seas. You always want to avoid a riveted boat as they will not stand up to the pounding and will end up with loose rivets very quickly.
I have owned a Quintex boat built in Australia for the last 6 or 7 years and it was made from 1/4 inch plate aluminum below the hull line and has proven to be a magnificent boat for the Sea of Cortez. Because of the deadrise on this boat, it rides almost as well as a fiberglass boat but does not take the same horsepower to effeciently push it through the water. I have only upgraded to a new Triumph boat to get a couple of extra feet and will be really sad when I put the Quintrex on the market in the next week or so.

RnR - 11-28-2010 at 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom first.

How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically?

Pescador - 11-29-2010 at 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RnR

Quote:

Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom first.

How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically?

If the boat spends it's time in the water, you need to pay special attention to electrolysis around the transom from the bottom up to the water line. Usually this is caused by a poor ground connection which allows some electric interaction with the salt water, which is a great conductor of electricity, and the aluminum is given up and the minerals of the sea water become attached instead. Normally this happens with aluminum boats but is taken care of by sacrificial pieces which is normally the trim tab (above the propeller) and the sacrificial anode which normally attaches to the motor right below the lifting mechanism.
I normally change those out about every three or four years, but if you trailer the boat and do not keep it in the water, this process can take a much longer time to occur.
I live down here and fish probably 250+ days a year, so I use a boat a lot and because I keep up with checking the sacrificals I have never had a problem with the last 3 boats I had (two Klamaths and one Quintrex). But, I did see a boat that was poorly maintained and they had a problem after a year or so of staying almost full time in the water.
Aluminum is not the complete answer to boating and fishing in the salt, but it has proven itself to be a very good option. These boats are light, need less horsepower to push them around, do not degrade due to sun, and are relatively easy to maintain and own. The downside is the minor quirks of downwave handling (the Bayrunner being the most noticeable here), their tendency to slap the oncoming waves, and the tendency to oilcan and develop cracks after years of hard usage but with the high price of fuel, I gladly adjust to the nuances of the material in comparison to a heavy fiberglass boat with it's different set of operational challenges.

Russ - 11-29-2010 at 08:25 AM

I think your jeep would tow a panga fine. My experience with "tin boats" is that if you buy a used one you really want to look at the bottom and if there are any signs of small circular oxidation marks walk away. They may mean that barnacles had attached and have been scraped off or just the start of something really bad. Pescador could go into a more understandable explanation or disagree but to patch those spots once they start eating through the hull is the beginning of the end and there really isn't any value in a boat once they start leaking. Fiberglass can easily be patched and scraping the hull is no big deal. just my 2¢

Hook - 11-29-2010 at 09:30 AM

Is your Jeep an Unlimited model? I believe the difference in towing capacity is about 1500 lbs.

Either way, you should be able to launch and retrieve a fiberglass boat in that range. Jeeps have pretty mushy rear suspension; consider some kind of method of stiffening them up.

Given the distances you must travel to and from your fishing grounds, you WILL get caught out there in nasty conditions. There is no substitute for weight when chop comes up. Fiberglass is better for this. You will pay a bit of a premium in fuel efficiency but in the 20 foot class, it wont be that huge. Get something with a nice Carolina flare and you'll be surprised how dry the ride can be. I love the older Makos and Kencrafts, especially the ones with the V seating up front and all the storage it creates. I'm speaking of a center console layout, of course. You can still fight fish up there, too, if forced to do so.

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by Hook]

Alan - 11-29-2010 at 11:17 AM

It is a six cylinder with a tow capacity of 2000 lbs. but I have that long grade to pull out of La Paz up and over to Muertos so weight is still my biggest concern.

As stated the suspension can be soft so I am looking for something like air bags or shocks to adjust for that.

I agree I can probably pull a panga and they are nearly indestructable but the owners of most I have seen on the market seem to be very proud of their boats and expect a premium. The only one's I have seen that were reasonable were work pangas that are very old with very high hour outboards.

I am very excited by Pescador's response. I have experienced the bow steering problem he described on several boats I have operated and agree that with poper trim this can at least be minimized.

Thanks to all of you for your rapid and detailed responses to my questions.

vgabndo - 11-29-2010 at 07:00 PM

Good info Pescador

When I bought my used early Klamath 16 footer, one of the things I should have paid more attention to was to sight along the bottom from the stern. Although nothing was visible from inside, there was already a significant concavity where the boat had been pounded into the chop on Tamales Bay. I bought it sitting on the beach, and had to go buy a trailer to take it home!! I later discovered significant damage and only later devised a save with all new floor boards and seat connections and 16 cu. ft. of marine two part closed cell foam. It was quiet, unsinkable, and doomed to rot out.

No rivets. Don't use the bow pintel to pull the boat up the beach.

luckyman - 11-29-2010 at 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

Originally posted by RnR

Quote:

Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom first.

How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically?

well put, pescador....
250 days a year?...you're the lucky one!

gnukid - 11-30-2010 at 03:48 AM

Lets say you want to go fishing, if you purchase the boat and tow it the costs would likely be near $7000 for the boat minimum, plus towing and running costs and gear, let's say a total $10,000 over three years.

If instead you used pangueros and paid $200 per outing you could go 50 times over the same period. You might go 5 times and realize that's enough trips to 88 for now and decide to become a sailor or diver or conservationist.

And you would not have to tow, load or unload or clean the boat.

Consider the advantages of chartering with local fleet captains, you will have success, save money and get more sleep.

If you insist on buying, perhaps consider a whaler 17. It's 15-30knots out there right now.

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]

bajabass - 11-30-2010 at 07:38 AM

You have a good point gnukid. I drove out to La Ventana and Muertos/Suenos on Saturday. Windy and rough. White caps in the bay. I have been looking at several different boat possibilities for the move to La Paz. My 16' whaler clone will work when it is flat, but I need more boat to be able to fish safely if more than a light breeze kicks up. Looks like a 21' panga or 17'-19' center console minimum will get the job done. Any one in La Paz know of a good boat for sale in the 5k-7k range? I'd rather not tow one down from California if possible.

Pescador - 11-30-2010 at 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Lets say you want to go fishing, if you purchase the boat and tow it the costs would likely be near $7000 for the boat minimum, plus towing and running costs and gear, let's say a total $10,000 over three years.

If instead you used pangueros and paid $200 per outing you could go 50 times over the same period. You might go 5 times and realize that's enough trips to 88 for now and decide to become a sailor or diver or conservationist.

And you would not have to tow, load or unload or clean the boat.

Consider the advantages of chartering with local fleet captains, you will have success, save money and get more sleep.

If you insist on buying, perhaps consider a whaler 17. It's 15-30knots out there right now.

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]

That is fine if your only objective is to catch a couple of fish and are a part timer. I very seldom go with guides because I would lose the whole challenge of figuring out where the fish are, what they are feeding on, and how I can turn all of that into some level of success.
My worst nightmare is to go out with a panguero who only knows how to troll (which is my most unfavorite thing to do in the whole world) and actually pay money to be bored out of my mind.
So, your point and math are very valid and a great consideration, but it may not work in all cases and it depends a lot on what your goal really is.

Pescador - 11-30-2010 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabass
You have a good point gnukid. I drove out to La Ventana and Muertos/Suenos on Saturday. Windy and rough. White caps in the bay. I have been looking at several different boat possibilities for the move to La Paz. My 16' whaler clone will work when it is flat, but I need more boat to be able to fish safely if more than a light breeze kicks up. Looks like a 21' panga or 17'-19' center console minimum will get the job done. Any one in La Paz know of a good boat for sale in the 5k-7k range? I'd rather not tow one down from California if possible.

The Moosea boat (19.5 Quintrex) is going up for sale as I bought a new Triumph 21.5, and would tow it down if anything was biting at Muertos.

gnukid - 11-30-2010 at 08:44 AM

Fishing and boating off of La Paz, the islands and Las Arenas side is weather driven. The pangueros know something, but not everything and they do tend toward the simple and easy as opposed to adventure.

As someone who spends time on the water I am surprised how so many gringos won't listen or fail to understand basic cyclical weather patterns.

You hear them going on about the Northerly while the wind is from the South. You could point to flags and charts til your face is blue, but they can't help but recall some Northerly and that is what they call it when they see wind! Whew, these failures are more than idiotic, the failure to be able to accept what the conditions are is downright dangerous. You also see sailors in denial about the wind direction, improperly sheeted sailing poorly. People say the wind is swirly and unpredictable, and it is about 9-10am or on the front of a Norte, yet this is practically 100% predictable reliably, there are now wind charts with years of archives you can view with points on both sides at http://ikitesurf.com. It's a local pattern. Pay attention, use it to your advantage.

For example, on the Bay of La Paz there is often a south (coromuel) breeze early in the morning 3am - 9am or so, then a glass off and North fill in 9am - 5pm. The older traditional fisherman use a panga with a mast and sail with no boom to ride the south slowly, anchor and then return on the north. Other fisherman do head out to the islands under low power motors, this is a long run lasting multiple days, while many locals fish in the inner bay or outer bay. Sport fisherman use big motors and burn lots of fuel running to Islotes or 88 and further out. That's 100 miles a day for what?

These big boats are often leaving too late to get the fish. What many others do is get on the water 1-2 hours before sunrise get bait ready and fish inshore and about til just after sunrise and come in and go on about your day. Each month has different patterns which are well documented starting with Ray Cannons book to all of the other books and reports noting how the fish move and which are best to go for and when.

In Muertos, the inner bay and shore is protected from the North wind. So you can leave early and head toward Ceralvo and when the first North breeze hits at 9 or 10am you can turn and ride at angles in the swell or lee and back to the Bay.

The traditional boat was a low panga with narrow bow and stern and simple 2 stroke motor, they are still in use and available for practically free. The newer pangas are the skiboat style, 22, 23, and 26 or 27 with 40-115hp. New hull costs range from 3-5K. I can give you contacts for custom builders in La Paz, there are 3 on Calle Rangel and of course the shop in LB. These boats leave from the shore and return to shore and are often left on the shore without much gear except the motor.

Many boaters who go everyday leave the boat on the beach and carry a small motor and gas and launch off sand. I know this is not the gringo way but there is a point. You can not load, tow, launch, land and pull out everyday without it becoming a huge burden. Most boating injuries and deaths occur on the launch and landing ramp. Less is more. The tide comes into play for ease of launch on sand.

Since I spend a lot of time out here, I see very few people launching with trailers everyday, but they do come out once in awhile. That process is expensive. You do see smaller boats run out and back daily. For example, kayaks, custom pontoon boats, small boats, aluminum etc...

A run to 88 is a very big deal and not easy even in a 50' cruiser fisher and is only required when the temperature is low inshore and higher offshore.

Generally boating is seasonal, taking advantage of good weather with little chance of sudden changes. Nov-March is windy on Las Arenas side about 60% of the days in 3 day cycles with much of predicated by the moon and tidal phases-I find.

So taking all that into play, you may want to start with a simple, economical ride, something lightweight and simple and learn and eventually move up if necessary. Do not buy new, buy hardly used, lightweight, 4 stroke small motor. Consider an aluminum boat or true whaler Montauk. Or if you are flush with cash get something bigger in the 20-22 offshore range which runs up into the 20-30k range.

The point is you go fishing when you are predicting flat weather and you should design your system for that not for fishing in bad weather-there are plenty of calm days. And Pangas are not very comfortable to ride in over the long haul or fun to trailer. A boston whaler montauk or a proper aluminum boat are both excellent affordable boats working toward lighter is better. I have run an inflatable all over but inflatables wear out fast on the SOC and they are no fun with bill fish.

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]

Alan - 11-30-2010 at 09:39 AM

You make some very valuable points gnukid but Pescador echoed my sentiments very well. I have fished extensively with local pangueros for many, many, years and over the years I have caught real trophies of nearly every species of fish, except for that elusive (for me) wahoo. At this point in my life the hunt is as big a part of my fishing enjoyment as the catch. Additionally I prefer catch and release and usually only keep what I plan to eat that night or the next, which still doesn't sit well with most pangueros after they worked so hard to get me that fish.

Additionally, it's not just about the fishing. I have recently retired so now I have the opportunity to spend significantly more time in La Paz. You obviously know the area so you also know there are many more things to do with a boat in Baja than just fish.

Your observations of the wind is very accurate but it is also seasonal as well, depending on winter or summer. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that people won't listen or fail to understand? I can almost set by watch by the wind in La Paz :lol:

In your summation you have come to the same conclusions as I have in describing my boating needs. Of course I prefer to schedule my fishing days by the weather, however in all my years on the SoC I have learned that there will always be some days when things can and do change rapidly, hence my questions regarding aluminum boats because I have no experience at all with them, except 14er's on a lake which obviously is hardly applicable here.

Of course now the downside is that bajabass and I are going to get stuck in a bidding war :lol:

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by Alan]

gnukid - 11-30-2010 at 09:55 AM

Most of my neighbors and best friends are excellent pangueros and fishing captains, so I do respect their skill greatly and that's is why I suggested time with pangas when desired, its very good use of your resources. With them I have caught all the fish of my dreams. Now, like you I enjoy adventure, I like to pull in to shore, land, take walks, come back and I leave the boat ready all day for multiple runs. We are fishing with kayaks, small boats and catamaran sailboats, windsurfers and kitesurfing trailing hooks.

Keep in mind that center console versus side drive changes the dynamics of the weight and the prop should be appropriate. See you on the water, I hope, there are so few people that go out.

As to why they don't listen, I imagine its because they actually don't go out much. These gringos have memories of one day and they tend to repeat the same story, it's a bit frustrating when you try to help a gringo old timer who is fighting the wind and currents by heading North in the Southerly and South in the Northerly launching at low tide on rocks etc...

Yesterday, I was on Bahia de la Ventana, and there is a local fellow there who comes often to the shallows, he caught more than 100lbs of octopus and lobster. The fish are everywhere, you simply need to manifest them.

Oh and lastly, watch out for the Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni aka Collosal Squid, they will bite your head off.

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]

wsdunc - 11-30-2010 at 10:19 AM

I have used a 15 ft aluminum boat extensively, beach launched, and only going out when the weather looked good, and running for shore as soon as the wind started to pick up. I have had to beach the boat wherever I was rather than run back to camp when things got nasty. That being said there are many days where you can fish from before dawn until early afternoon in beautiful conditions. And sometimes the wind dies down near dusk, allowing you to fish the sunset. Sunrise and sunset are the magic times to fish anyhow.

Skipjack Joe - 11-30-2010 at 10:37 AM

There is nothing like owning your own boat.

As others have pointed out - it's not about how much fish you bring back.

BillP - 11-30-2010 at 11:55 AM

If the motor is sound, this is a smokin' deal, should fit your parameters:

Parker center consol

Alan - 11-30-2010 at 03:12 PM

BillP
Thanks for the headsup!

bajabass - 11-30-2010 at 04:03 PM

Thanks Bill! I missed that one this morning! I sell my biz tomorrow, and may end up with a Parker. Looks like a good boat, but they all look good on the computer!

Alan - 11-30-2010 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabass
Thanks Bill! I missed that one this morning! I sell my biz tomorrow, and may end up with a Parker. Looks like a good boat, but they all look good on the computer!

I knew it would come down to this :lol:

BillP - 11-30-2010 at 04:58 PM

Parkers are stout boats. Most of the time, a used 18' Parker will be in the $15-20K range. That one is a 2 stroke, have the motor evaluated by a good mechanic.

I can see it's missing a drivers seat, easily fixed with an ice chest and cushion. I'm sure there's other work needed but at that price, you have room to work.

Good luck guys!

bajabass - 11-30-2010 at 05:04 PM

OK Alan, whoever gets a good boat first, gets to take the other guy out a couple times!!! :biggrin:

bajabass - 11-30-2010 at 09:24 PM

I thought that Parker was too good to be true! The ad on Boody Decks is locked out now. :rolleyes:

mcfez - 11-30-2010 at 09:58 PM

Quote:

Boy....you got it right, I hate to say!

acadist - 12-5-2010 at 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

What a great thread! This is a subject I have been contemplating alot lately.....to buy or not to buy (and a tin boat is what I have been thinking about). I have chartered and towed down (with a friend) and see distinct advantages with both. I will be traveling once or twice a year and despite the initial outlay the cost per trip will decrease significantly. I also like the idea of the freedom to not be so set into planned locations. I have been on a few boat rides so I like to arrange pangas in advance with more reputible outfits. Another consideration for me is my boys are almost at the age that they are ready to spend the day on the water and the flexibility of owning my own boatgives you more options to go out late, come in early, or just stay out and enjoy!Although my main reason for buying is to have a towable for Baja it would get used on the mountain lakes in CO.

Pescador - 12-5-2010 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acadist

What a great thread! This is a subject I have been contemplating alot lately.....to buy or not to buy (and a tin boat is what I have been thinking about). I have chartered and towed down (with a friend) and see distinct advantages with both. I will be traveling once or twice a year and despite the initial outlay the cost per trip will decrease significantly. I also like the idea of the freedom to not be so set into planned locations. I have been on a few boat rides so I like to arrange pangas in advance with more reputible outfits. Another consideration for me is my boys are almost at the age that they are ready to spend the day on the water and the flexibility of owning my own boatgives you more options to go out late, come in early, or just stay out and enjoy!Although my main reason for buying is to have a towable for Baja it would get used on the mountain lakes in CO.

I looked at all of the recreational pursuits that I enjoyed like hunting, fishing,golf, skiing, 4-wheeling, backpacking, and a host of other stuff, but decided that since I was nearing retirement, I needed to decide on one or two things that gave me the most pleasure that I could focus more intently on. For me that was an easy choice and it has allowed me to have good equipment and tackle because I was not so spread out and trying to do too many things.
So as you have touched on here, I have my own schedules, do not need to depend on someone else to set the schedule or timetable, and am free to go wherever I choose to fish, whether that is in Colorado or Mexico.
Gnukid is thinking of the short term and if you are just interested in catching a couple of fish you can always go out with a local guide and usually manage to do that, but that approach has it's limitations which play out time and again. A local captain has a limitation as to distance, equipment, and knowledge that will make him or her an expert in one location and may produce a few fish, but if the fish are biting too far away from his home range, he is usually not able to put the boat on a trailer and go there. I can fish either side of the baja peninsula and am basically only a few hours away from world class fishing that is dependent on my schedule and abilities and for sure it is not going to happen that you get a local panguero to fish in Dillon when the big browns are running.
So, if you are on a short vacation, or just do not want to invest in time and equipment and it is a recreational diversion, then charter makes a lot of sense, but if it is something deeper than that, then you may want to give some serious consideration to your own "setup".

gnukid - 12-5-2010 at 10:05 AM

Pescador,

Good comments but you misunderstand me. I am boating for life, I go everyday and there are so few who do, if they go out I probably know them. I wish more people would come.

The point i was making should be clear, there is a great deal to learn about boating on the SOC, boating costs money and it can be difficult or dangerous. There is a good value in using the dominant system, if you haven't, that is to charter a panga, the value is excellent and you will learn if you really like it.

Me on the other hand, I am happy by myself on the water, so truthfully I feel claustrophobic on a panga with a captain and too many other fisherman. I have gone but I prefer not to be on someone else boat unless its someone very calm and skilled.

But back on point, today and yesterday we had little wind, what seemed like a perfect day on the bay of La Paz, I headed out as always and found my way toward Magote hoping to round the point and visit some whale shark and fish. As I found my way, I hit a river of current, perhaps 6-8knots sucking out, it was a bit more than I expected. And it was becoming very shallow over the sand bars. The current was actually quite dangerous if you weren't ready for it as it would drag you aground. But there is a cut through the sand bars.

I kept going to the point and close shore and rode the back eddy toward the inner bay and survived once again! Whew! Last night the sunset lit the sky up in storm of red and blue. There was only one other person out, my 'olbuddy Pete Begle was still sailing into the sunset.

seapeople - 12-5-2010 at 01:44 PM

I used to tow a Gregor down for years. I liked the idea of being able to ground it without scratching fiberglass. However I hated the lack of room and most of all being wet coming back in the afternoon against a bad wind. Actually came in wearing my dive wet suit and a mask and snorkel once. Also put a crack in the hull from overloading it on the trailer. My next boat was a boston whaler, a lot better than the Gregor. More speed and more seaworthy. But alas grew tired of still being wet. I now run a C-Dory. Very dry nice handling boat. I drive a 19', but they make a 16' that can easily be towed by your Jeep.
As far as outboards go... 4strokes are nice but they are heavy. I have 2 15hp motors for my inflatable. An 1980 Johnson and a 1999 Honda. I can barely hoist the Honda, but I can throw the Johnson over my shoulder. Watch the weight on the back of a can boat. More weight in the back can add other issues as well.

Alan - 12-5-2010 at 02:30 PM

It's funny that you mentioned a Whaler. I just don't understand their hull design. They look just like a tri-hull which gives an ugly enough ride on a lake. I can't imagine the ride they would have in the ocean but some people seem to swear by them :?:

Doug/Vamonos - 1-4-2011 at 08:14 PM

I guess I'm resurrecting this thread. Didn't see it till now. Well, here goes. I owned a 95 Baja 19' for ten years. Took it all over Baja, in all water conditions. It was a great boat, but it is very different from the 21' (2000 model - the last ones Valco built before going out of business and being bought by Klamath), which I have owned for the past six years. They look very similar and are the same design. But the 21' is a battleship compared to the 19'. It is bigger in every dimension. The 19' can be tippy and is much wetter when the wind comes up. Both of them have the wide gunnels that wrap all the way around the boat. These gunnels are awesome. You can sit or walk on them. You can lay down and take a nap on them. You can set things on them.

The main advantage of the 19' is it is a few hundred pounds lighter, it can be easily manhandled on the beach and trailer by one guy, and it gets better mileage due to the smaller outboard. And it is still very seaworthy. The 21', on the other hand, is very dry, even in a stiff wind. It does not tip nearly as much, although you still need to manage the weight in the boat. Bear in mind that the Bajas are very different than the regular Bayrunners. You definitely want the Baja, and it is worth the cost difference. I always hear about cracked bows. That occurs with the older Bayrunners, not the Bajas (as far as my experience goes). If you want a new one, the models being built by Klamath are MUCH better quality than the ones Valco built. Just take a look at the welds of each and the little details and you will see that much more time and effort goes into the new ones. But you definitely pay for those improvements as the new boats are pretty pricey. Both the 19' and 21' are bumpy in rough water and you will find yourself cursing to the wind when it starts slapping. You may also find 20' Bajas. These are essentially a 19' with a built in tank under the deck, which means the deck is taller, your center of gravity is higher, and it is a little more tippy. As I said, the 19' and 20' are MUCH smaller boats than the 21'.

Skipjack Joe - 1-5-2011 at 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug/Vamonos

The main advantage of the 19' is it is a few hundred pounds lighter, it can be easily manhandled on the beach and trailer by one guy

A 19 footer that can be easily manhandled by one guy?

I guess it's how you define manhandling a tin boat. To me that's dragging, carrying, or rolling the boat into water. The limit for the first 2 is about 13' and about 15' for rolling. My son and I manhandled a 14'5" tin boat last week - actually, to be honest, it manhandled us.

Martyman - 1-5-2011 at 09:44 AM

I have an older 16' Bayrunner/Westcoaster and I have a stupid question. Previous writers have said that they beach their boat in bad/windy conditions. I can't do that with my boat as anytime I beach it, waves will come in over the transom and slowly fill the boat. Bringing the boat in stern first will not work. Which leaves anchoring and swimming in. Any other way of safely beaching?
I'm getting experience but am still fairly new at this stuff. I realized that my boat can take quite a bit of wind chop but it is a bumpy ride and I do love that spray in the face, makes you feel alive but quickly takes away the beer buzz.

boats for baja

captkw - 1-5-2011 at 10:51 AM

take a liviston for a ride and your see for yourself why its the best boat for baja...hands down...no ifs or butts about it....I like the 14 with a 25 2 stroke,pull start with the little steering conslole...32 winters down here and have tryed just about anything that will float...any questions.....email:captkw@hotmail.com.........OUT!! P.s. the 15.5 is awesome but a little much for a 21 yr volvo to tow...

Russ - 1-5-2011 at 12:08 PM

Got any photos of your 14 livingston?

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
take a liviston for a ride and your see for yourself why its the best boat for baja...hands down...no ifs or butts about it....I like the 14 with a 25 2 stroke,pull start with the little steering conslole...32 winters down here and have tryed just about anything that will float...any questions.....email:captkw@hotmail.com.........OUT!! P.s. the 15.5 is awesome but a little much for a 21 yr volvo to tow...

little catermans

captkw - 1-5-2011 at 04:01 PM

no, I dont have any with at present,Im down in B.C.S but when I get back to the states I can fire you off some....I now have a 18.5 and I love it but a little over kill for most of .....my fishing and I use it for SAR with the coatses and c.g.aux. I used to go out to the weather bouy out of santa cruz (25 miles) and drag for albies in the 14 and let the wind blow,, these boats eat it up..Ive seen alot of livingstons that are rigged totally WRONG!!!! keep it simple,balancd,light and no I dont sell them...and most dealers dont rigg them the right way. the 15.5 is perfect if you have a coulpe of fishing buddies,but I did small charters for yrs with a 14...3 guys max,need room for beer,beer,beer and the fish..but its great for 2...and most guys drive them like a mono,slowling down when it gets snoty...these like to ripp through they crap and dry,soft ride and very stable...MY northen home is santa cruz calif and if anyone wants to go catch some salmon or big white seabass or whatever is biting, give me a land line after april 1st I should be back from baja (831)469-2650 p.s. I towed a 14 down to panama and back, but thats a story for a camp fire!!! :cool:

Pompano - 1-5-2011 at 04:12 PM

A good Lund is pretty much bulletproof these days. They are delivered to Far North fly-in-only fishing lodges by lashing them to the pontoons of float planes and dropped down onto the lake with a mighty SPLASH!

Always exciting to watch a delivery. Grab a few cold LaBatts and a lakeside chair.

Sometimes the pilot misjudges the wind drift..and there goes a section of dock.

Doug/Vamonos - 1-5-2011 at 06:54 PM

Skipjack Joe...I guess I should have added that I'm 6'5" and 240lbs. By manhandle, I mean move the boat on and off the trailer at low tide and hold the boat on the beach with waves and wind pushing it. I could do it with the 19'. No such luck with the 21'.

Martyman...My wife and I used to camp at Punta Chivato a lot and we endured more than a few big storms. Several times my boat was on anchor when the storm came up in the middle of the night. My only option, other than watching it get pounded in the surf, was to swim out and run it up on the beach. I did that several times and in the morning I would get some help to dig it out and float it back out. No damage to the hull or outboard. I definitely wouldn't recommend that as standard procedure but it worked. Full speed ahead, trim up outboard and turn it off just before hitting the beach, and hope for the best! Man...those early days of camping at PC were great!

Skipjack Joe - 1-5-2011 at 09:17 PM

Without a ramp you must be driving your vehicle into the water. That kind of stuff scares me personally, even with the 4WD. I see a lot of hard packed sand at low tide but am too chicken to drive out on it.

It's not a problem for us now that we have launching wheels.

BTW, Martyman, those launch wheels raise the back end a foot off the sand and small waves roll right under the hull during takeout.

I agree with you: getting water slapped over the transom is a major headache. The more water gets in the more difficult it is to move that thing. And the tougher it is to move the more water comes in. Been there and done that. It's a situation I make every effort to avoid.

Doug/Vamonos - 1-6-2011 at 07:07 PM

I have the flip down spare. I back the boat to the water (never get my truck wet), unhitch the trailer, and push the rig out to sea until it floats. After getting the boat off and anchoring it, I tie some pull ropes to the trailer and yank it back out. A little wet but none the worse for wear. I used to use my hitch extension but I find it easier just to shove the whole rig out to sea. And sometimes the extension is not long enough so it's an exercise in frustration. I can do the same routine to retrieve it if necessary but I try to work the tides instead.

Santiago - 1-6-2011 at 08:59 PM

I've seen D/V in operation and it's sweet.

Doug/Vamonos - 1-7-2011 at 05:12 PM

You're too kind...

What the heck is your avatar? I stare at it and can't figure it out, but I have the eery feeling it is looking back at me.

Skipjack Joe - 1-7-2011 at 05:28 PM

I think it's a spider.

BTW last night I looked at the specs of your 19 footer and it said 725lb. Let's assume the trailer is 200lbs. That means you're rolling out 1000lbs into the surf on your own. It seems like an awful lot and would require a firm bottom to pull it off. I'm interested because having a large boat and preserving the versatility of a small boat would be great.

monoloco - 1-7-2011 at 06:01 PM

I always thought it would be cool to design a trailer that you could switch around to launch the boat bow first into the surf.

bajamedic - 1-8-2011 at 10:48 PM

Does anybody have any Baja experience with the larger, welded aluminum boats like the North River or similar. The specs show a very beefy bottom that would appear to hold up against the beach sand better than fiberglass. Also, many are using an I/O Jet, views or comments? JH

BillP - 1-10-2011 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajamedic
Does anybody have any Baja experience with the larger, welded aluminum boats like the North River or similar. The specs show a very beefy bottom that would appear to hold up against the beach sand better than fiberglass. Also, many are using an I/O Jet, views or comments? JH

If you look on North River's site, they rate their boats best for bays and rivers. Though widely used in Baja, most aluminum boats are fairly flat bottoms and they do pound in rough water. North River does have a 12º bottom on a coupla models that wouldn't be too bad.

Jets are great for shallow water running on rivers, etc, and although they've improved over the years, they're gas hogs, not near as fuel efficient as a prop. Though it's been a while since I've been down, I don't ever recall seeing a jet on anything but a PWC.

Santiago - 1-10-2011 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug/Vamonos
What the heck is your avatar? I stare at it and can't figure it out, but I have the eery feeling it is looking back at me.

BillP - 1-10-2011 at 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
One of my dreams

Then you won't have to worry about beaching it.

Nice!!!!!

Doug/Vamonos - 1-10-2011 at 11:06 PM

Demon sheep....nightmares tonight for sure.

Skipjack Joe - If you're referring to my boat, actually the 21' is a lot more weight. With the trailer it's over 3,000lbs. It rolls out into the water very nicely. We have a hard pack beach at Geckos so the only problem is rocks blocking the wheels as it rolls. Lots of people do the three wheel deal. As long as you have pull ropes it is no problem.