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Alan
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Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Yucaipa, CA/La Paz
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Questions for experienced tin boaters
I am looking for a boat to just keep in La Paz but it will need to be something light enough to tow with a Jeep Wrangler. I have been looking very
closely at something like a Bayrunner in the 18-21' range and definitely something with a 4 stroke outboard. My dilemna is that I have absolutely
zero experience with aluminum boats.
My first concern is with the ride and handling characteristics of such a light boat when winds pick up as they do nearly everyday in that area. (My
primary area would be the Muertos/Cerralvo/88 area)
Even more important however is what specific things should I be looking for when evaluating this type of boat. Ie; what problems have you
experienced, potential problem areas, etc.
Any and all assistance would be greatly appreciated
In Memory of E-57
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luckyman
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Registered: 12-19-2007
Location: near chico, ca
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tin boat
i have a 22 bayrunner with a 90 4 stroke honda. bayrunners are pretty seaworthy boats, but not the smoothest ride in windy/rough conditions. i was
out in september when the water on the soc went from glass to 5' wind waves in a matter of 1 hour...we were only a couple of miles out, but the pucker
factor kicked in and we headed back to the beach.
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom
first. if you can look under the deck before you buy, look also for cracked welds or structural problems, especially in the front 1/3 of the hull
where the beating takes place.
if i had it to do all over again, i might have waited until a good used fiberglass hull came along...until then, i'll choose my days on the water
carefully and keep an eye on the horizon. good luck with your search.
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Pescador
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Posts: 3587
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Location: Baja California Sur
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Bayrunners and Klamath boats have a challenge in that the back of the boat is flat and the front of the boat has a pronounced V. When you go down
wind on a quartering basis the back end will skid slightly since it is flat and has not much directional stability. When the front end hits the wave
in front of it, the front wants to quickly go in a different direction which can cause some real problems if you encounter this in pretty rough seas.
Those that have lots of experience in these boats learn quickly how to trim the boat and how to handle rear quartering seas. These boats are also
subject to some flex problems if you use them a lot in rough seas. You always want to avoid a riveted boat as they will not stand up to the pounding
and will end up with loose rivets very quickly.
I have owned a Quintex boat built in Australia for the last 6 or 7 years and it was made from 1/4 inch plate aluminum below the hull line and has
proven to be a magnificent boat for the Sea of Cortez. Because of the deadrise on this boat, it rides almost as well as a fiberglass boat but does
not take the same horsepower to effeciently push it through the water. I have only upgraded to a new Triumph boat to get a couple of extra feet and
will be really sad when I put the Quintrex on the market in the next week or so.
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RnR
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| Quote: | Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom
first. |
How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically?
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Pescador
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| Quote: | Originally posted by RnR
| Quote: | Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom
first. |
How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically? |
If the boat spends it's time in the water, you need to pay special attention to electrolysis around the transom from the bottom up to the water line.
Usually this is caused by a poor ground connection which allows some electric interaction with the salt water, which is a great conductor of
electricity, and the aluminum is given up and the minerals of the sea water become attached instead. Normally this happens with aluminum boats but is
taken care of by sacrificial pieces which is normally the trim tab (above the propeller) and the sacrificial anode which normally attaches to the
motor right below the lifting mechanism.
I normally change those out about every three or four years, but if you trailer the boat and do not keep it in the water, this process can take a
much longer time to occur.
I live down here and fish probably 250+ days a year, so I use a boat a lot and because I keep up with checking the sacrificals I have never had a
problem with the last 3 boats I had (two Klamaths and one Quintrex). But, I did see a boat that was poorly maintained and they had a problem after a
year or so of staying almost full time in the water.
Aluminum is not the complete answer to boating and fishing in the salt, but it has proven itself to be a very good option. These boats are light,
need less horsepower to push them around, do not degrade due to sun, and are relatively easy to maintain and own. The downside is the minor quirks
of downwave handling (the Bayrunner being the most noticeable here), their tendency to slap the oncoming waves, and the tendency to oilcan and develop
cracks after years of hard usage but with the high price of fuel, I gladly adjust to the nuances of the material in comparison to a heavy fiberglass
boat with it's different set of operational challenges.
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Russ
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I think your jeep would tow a panga fine. My experience with "tin boats" is that if you buy a used one you really want to look at the bottom and if
there are any signs of small circular oxidation marks walk away. They may mean that barnacles had attached and have been scraped off or just the start
of something really bad. Pescador could go into a more understandable explanation or disagree but to patch those spots once they start eating through
the hull is the beginning of the end and there really isn't any value in a boat once they start leaking. Fiberglass can easily be patched and scraping
the hull is no big deal. just my 2¢
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Hook
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Is your Jeep an Unlimited model? I believe the difference in towing capacity is about 1500 lbs.
Either way, you should be able to launch and retrieve a fiberglass boat in that range. Jeeps have pretty mushy rear suspension; consider some kind of
method of stiffening them up.
Given the distances you must travel to and from your fishing grounds, you WILL get caught out there in nasty conditions. There is no substitute for
weight when chop comes up. Fiberglass is better for this. You will pay a bit of a premium in fuel efficiency but in the 20 foot class, it wont be that
huge. Get something with a nice Carolina flare and you'll be surprised how dry the ride can be. I love the older Makos and Kencrafts, especially the
ones with the V seating up front and all the storage it creates. I'm speaking of a center console layout, of course. You can still fight fish up
there, too, if forced to do so.
[Edited on 11-29-2010 by Hook]
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Alan
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Location: Yucaipa, CA/La Paz
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It is a six cylinder with a tow capacity of 2000 lbs. but I have that long grade to pull out of La Paz up and over to Muertos so weight is still my
biggest concern.
As stated the suspension can be soft so I am looking for something like air bags or shocks to adjust for that.
I agree I can probably pull a panga and they are nearly indestructable but the owners of most I have seen on the market seem to be very proud of their
boats and expect a premium. The only one's I have seen that were reasonable were work pangas that are very old with very high hour outboards.
I am very excited by Pescador's response. I have experienced the bow steering problem he described on several boats I have operated and agree that
with poper trim this can at least be minimized.
Thanks to all of you for your rapid and detailed responses to my questions.
In Memory of E-57
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Good info Pescador
When I bought my used early Klamath 16 footer, one of the things I should have paid more attention to was to sight along the bottom from the stern.
Although nothing was visible from inside, there was already a significant concavity where the boat had been pounded into the chop on Tamales Bay. I
bought it sitting on the beach, and had to go buy a trailer to take it home!! I later discovered significant damage and only later devised a save with
all new floor boards and seat connections and 16 cu. ft. of marine two part closed cell foam. It was quiet, unsinkable, and doomed to rot out.
No rivets. Don't use the bow pintel to pull the boat up the beach.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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luckyman
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 12-19-2007
Location: near chico, ca
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by RnR
| Quote: | Originally posted by luckyman
as far as things to look for...corrosion by electrolysis is a common problem on any tin boat if it's not properly protected...look around the transom
first. |
How do you properly protect a tin boat against electrolysis? And, what should one be looking for, specifically? |
If the boat spends it's time in the water, you need to pay special attention to electrolysis around the transom from the bottom up to the water line.
Usually this is caused by a poor ground connection which allows some electric interaction with the salt water, which is a great conductor of
electricity, and the aluminum is given up and the minerals of the sea water become attached instead. Normally this happens with aluminum boats but is
taken care of by sacrificial pieces which is normally the trim tab (above the propeller) and the sacrificial anode which normally attaches to the
motor right below the lifting mechanism.
I normally change those out about every three or four years, but if you trailer the boat and do not keep it in the water, this process can take a
much longer time to occur.
I live down here and fish probably 250+ days a year, so I use a boat a lot and because I keep up with checking the sacrificals I have never had a
problem with the last 3 boats I had (two Klamaths and one Quintrex). But, I did see a boat that was poorly maintained and they had a problem after a
year or so of staying almost full time in the water.
Aluminum is not the complete answer to boating and fishing in the salt, but it has proven itself to be a very good option. These boats are light,
need less horsepower to push them around, do not degrade due to sun, and are relatively easy to maintain and own. The downside is the minor quirks
of downwave handling (the Bayrunner being the most noticeable here), their tendency to slap the oncoming waves, and the tendency to oilcan and develop
cracks after years of hard usage but with the high price of fuel, I gladly adjust to the nuances of the material in comparison to a heavy fiberglass
boat with it's different set of operational challenges. |
well put, pescador....
250 days a year?...you're the lucky one!
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
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Lets say you want to go fishing, if you purchase the boat and tow it the costs would likely be near $7000 for the boat minimum, plus towing and
running costs and gear, let's say a total $10,000 over three years.
If instead you used pangueros and paid $200 per outing you could go 50 times over the same period. You might go 5 times and realize that's enough
trips to 88 for now and decide to become a sailor or diver or conservationist.
And you would not have to tow, load or unload or clean the boat.
Consider the advantages of chartering with local fleet captains, you will have success, save money and get more sleep.
If you insist on buying, perhaps consider a whaler 17. It's 15-30knots out there right now.
[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]
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bajabass
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Posts: 2016
Registered: 10-4-2006
Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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You have a good point gnukid. I drove out to La Ventana and Muertos/Suenos on Saturday. Windy and rough. White caps in the bay. I have been looking at
several different boat possibilities for the move to La Paz. My 16' whaler clone will work when it is flat, but I need more boat to be able to fish
safely if more than a light breeze kicks up. Looks like a 21' panga or 17'-19' center console minimum will get the job done. Any one in La Paz know of
a good boat for sale in the 5k-7k range? I'd rather not tow one down from California if possible.
Keep your eyes on the road, and your hands upon the wheel!
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Pescador
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Posts: 3587
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Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Lets say you want to go fishing, if you purchase the boat and tow it the costs would likely be near $7000 for the boat minimum, plus towing and
running costs and gear, let's say a total $10,000 over three years.
If instead you used pangueros and paid $200 per outing you could go 50 times over the same period. You might go 5 times and realize that's enough
trips to 88 for now and decide to become a sailor or diver or conservationist.
And you would not have to tow, load or unload or clean the boat.
Consider the advantages of chartering with local fleet captains, you will have success, save money and get more sleep.
If you insist on buying, perhaps consider a whaler 17. It's 15-30knots out there right now.
[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid] |
That is fine if your only objective is to catch a couple of fish and are a part timer. I very seldom go with guides because I would lose the whole
challenge of figuring out where the fish are, what they are feeding on, and how I can turn all of that into some level of success.
My worst nightmare is to go out with a panguero who only knows how to troll (which is my most unfavorite thing to do in the whole world) and
actually pay money to be bored out of my mind.
So, your point and math are very valid and a great consideration, but it may not work in all cases and it depends a lot on what your goal really is.
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Pescador
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabass
You have a good point gnukid. I drove out to La Ventana and Muertos/Suenos on Saturday. Windy and rough. White caps in the bay. I have been looking at
several different boat possibilities for the move to La Paz. My 16' whaler clone will work when it is flat, but I need more boat to be able to fish
safely if more than a light breeze kicks up. Looks like a 21' panga or 17'-19' center console minimum will get the job done. Any one in La Paz know of
a good boat for sale in the 5k-7k range? I'd rather not tow one down from California if possible. |
The Moosea boat (19.5 Quintrex) is going up for sale as I bought a new Triumph 21.5, and would tow it down if anything was biting at Muertos.
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gnukid
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Fishing and boating off of La Paz, the islands and Las Arenas side is weather driven. The pangueros know something, but not everything and they do
tend toward the simple and easy as opposed to adventure.
As someone who spends time on the water I am surprised how so many gringos won't listen or fail to understand basic cyclical weather patterns.
You hear them going on about the Northerly while the wind is from the South. You could point to flags and charts til your face is blue, but they can't
help but recall some Northerly and that is what they call it when they see wind! Whew, these failures are more than idiotic, the failure to be able to
accept what the conditions are is downright dangerous. You also see sailors in denial about the wind direction, improperly sheeted sailing poorly.
People say the wind is swirly and unpredictable, and it is about 9-10am or on the front of a Norte, yet this is practically 100% predictable reliably,
there are now wind charts with years of archives you can view with points on both sides at http://ikitesurf.com. It's a local pattern. Pay attention, use it to your advantage.
For example, on the Bay of La Paz there is often a south (coromuel) breeze early in the morning 3am - 9am or so, then a glass off and North fill in
9am - 5pm. The older traditional fisherman use a panga with a mast and sail with no boom to ride the south slowly, anchor and then return on the
north. Other fisherman do head out to the islands under low power motors, this is a long run lasting multiple days, while many locals fish in the
inner bay or outer bay. Sport fisherman use big motors and burn lots of fuel running to Islotes or 88 and further out. That's 100 miles a day for
what?
These big boats are often leaving too late to get the fish. What many others do is get on the water 1-2 hours before sunrise get bait ready and fish
inshore and about til just after sunrise and come in and go on about your day. Each month has different patterns which are well documented starting
with Ray Cannons book to all of the other books and reports noting how the fish move and which are best to go for and when.
In Muertos, the inner bay and shore is protected from the North wind. So you can leave early and head toward Ceralvo and when the first North breeze
hits at 9 or 10am you can turn and ride at angles in the swell or lee and back to the Bay.
The traditional boat was a low panga with narrow bow and stern and simple 2 stroke motor, they are still in use and available for practically free.
The newer pangas are the skiboat style, 22, 23, and 26 or 27 with 40-115hp. New hull costs range from 3-5K. I can give you contacts for custom
builders in La Paz, there are 3 on Calle Rangel and of course the shop in LB. These boats leave from the shore and return to shore and are often left
on the shore without much gear except the motor.
Many boaters who go everyday leave the boat on the beach and carry a small motor and gas and launch off sand. I know this is not the gringo way but
there is a point. You can not load, tow, launch, land and pull out everyday without it becoming a huge burden. Most boating injuries and deaths occur
on the launch and landing ramp. Less is more. The tide comes into play for ease of launch on sand.
Since I spend a lot of time out here, I see very few people launching with trailers everyday, but they do come out once in awhile. That process is
expensive. You do see smaller boats run out and back daily. For example, kayaks, custom pontoon boats, small boats, aluminum etc...
A run to 88 is a very big deal and not easy even in a 50' cruiser fisher and is only required when the temperature is low inshore and higher offshore.
Generally boating is seasonal, taking advantage of good weather with little chance of sudden changes. Nov-March is windy on Las Arenas side about 60%
of the days in 3 day cycles with much of predicated by the moon and tidal phases-I find.
So taking all that into play, you may want to start with a simple, economical ride, something lightweight and simple and learn and eventually move up
if necessary. Do not buy new, buy hardly used, lightweight, 4 stroke small motor. Consider an aluminum boat or true whaler Montauk. Or if you are
flush with cash get something bigger in the 20-22 offshore range which runs up into the 20-30k range.
The point is you go fishing when you are predicting flat weather and you should design your system for that not for fishing in bad weather-there are
plenty of calm days. And Pangas are not very comfortable to ride in over the long haul or fun to trailer. A boston whaler montauk or a proper aluminum
boat are both excellent affordable boats working toward lighter is better. I have run an inflatable all over but inflatables wear out fast on the SOC
and they are no fun with bill fish.
[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]
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Alan
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You make some very valuable points gnukid but Pescador echoed my sentiments very well. I have fished extensively with local pangueros for many, many,
years and over the years I have caught real trophies of nearly every species of fish, except for that elusive (for me) wahoo. At this point in my
life the hunt is as big a part of my fishing enjoyment as the catch. Additionally I prefer catch and release and usually only keep what I plan to eat
that night or the next, which still doesn't sit well with most pangueros after they worked so hard to get me that fish.
Additionally, it's not just about the fishing. I have recently retired so now I have the opportunity to spend significantly more time in La Paz. You
obviously know the area so you also know there are many more things to do with a boat in Baja than just fish.
Your observations of the wind is very accurate but it is also seasonal as well, depending on winter or summer. I'm not sure how you came to the
conclusion that people won't listen or fail to understand? I can almost set by watch by the wind in La Paz 
In your summation you have come to the same conclusions as I have in describing my boating needs. Of course I prefer to schedule my fishing days by
the weather, however in all my years on the SoC I have learned that there will always be some days when things can and do change rapidly, hence my
questions regarding aluminum boats because I have no experience at all with them, except 14er's on a lake which obviously is hardly applicable here.
Of course now the downside is that bajabass and I are going to get stuck in a bidding war
[Edited on 11-30-2010 by Alan]
In Memory of E-57
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
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Most of my neighbors and best friends are excellent pangueros and fishing captains, so I do respect their skill greatly and that's is why I suggested
time with pangas when desired, its very good use of your resources. With them I have caught all the fish of my dreams. Now, like you I enjoy
adventure, I like to pull in to shore, land, take walks, come back and I leave the boat ready all day for multiple runs. We are fishing with kayaks,
small boats and catamaran sailboats, windsurfers and kitesurfing trailing hooks.
Keep in mind that center console versus side drive changes the dynamics of the weight and the prop should be appropriate. See you on the water, I
hope, there are so few people that go out.
As to why they don't listen, I imagine its because they actually don't go out much. These gringos have memories of one day and they tend to repeat the
same story, it's a bit frustrating when you try to help a gringo old timer who is fighting the wind and currents by heading North in the Southerly
and South in the Northerly launching at low tide on rocks etc...
Yesterday, I was on Bahia de la Ventana, and there is a local fellow there who comes often to the shallows, he caught more than 100lbs of octopus and
lobster. The fish are everywhere, you simply need to manifest them.
Oh and lastly, watch out for the Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni aka Collosal Squid, they will bite your head off.
[Edited on 11-30-2010 by gnukid]
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wsdunc
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Mood: Upbeat
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I have used a 15 ft aluminum boat extensively, beach launched, and only going out when the weather looked good, and running for shore as soon as the
wind started to pick up. I have had to beach the boat wherever I was rather than run back to camp when things got nasty. That being said there are
many days where you can fish from before dawn until early afternoon in beautiful conditions. And sometimes the wind dies down near dusk, allowing you
to fish the sunset. Sunrise and sunset are the magic times to fish anyhow.
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Skipjack Joe
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There is nothing like owning your own boat.
As others have pointed out - it's not about how much fish you bring back.
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BillP
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If the motor is sound, this is a smokin' deal, should fit your parameters:
Parker center consol
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