BajaNomad

"Collateral" Damage from Another Baja 1000

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 08:53 AM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/dec/27/a-life-saved-...

I keep asking myself every year after I see stories like this...when are the Mexicans going to toss the Baja 1000 out ? Probably when enough Mexicans get killed or maimed...I don't know. There is virtually no economic benefit to the Mexicans, they don't really participate much in the race. All those supposed "spectators" you see in Ensenada at the start of the race in photographs posted on this board?...ask yourself how many of those "spectators" are unemployed ? 50%...70%...more like 80% or more. That's why they are there...they have nothing to do. Then you have these "prerunners" who aren't really in the race but use it as an excuse to tear up the back country. There are a lot of unhappy ranchers in Baja because of this.

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 09:00 AM

Do you know who won the 1000 this year over all?

Curt63 - 12-28-2010 at 09:08 AM

Great job Marines!

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

I hope Mike Jenkins and Jenkins Brothers Racing steps up BIG TIME.

I wonder what SCORE's response is.

Curt63 - 12-28-2010 at 09:13 AM

More info

Mike Jenkins

sanquintinsince73 - 12-28-2010 at 09:20 AM

SEMPER FI

BajaGringo - 12-28-2010 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
SEMPER FI


It does sound like the Marines stepped up and did a great job. I can't quite say the same about Mike Jenkins after reading the links here in this thread...

:no:

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 09:25 AM

The Score offical pre-run speed is 25mph or the posted speed limit and they are warned that the course is open to local traffic except on race day. A lot of people will exceed it but usually on straight aways and/or in isolated areas. To do what Jenkins did is criminal in my opinion. The off road racing community don't need this to be happening and people that do it are idiots.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by TW]

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Do you know who won the 1000 this year over all?


As in - Gustavo Vildosola - Trophy Truck ?

He's from Mexicali correct ? So who is funding him ? and is his truck being built in Mexicali with American expertise and help? Doesn't he own a business in La Jolla ?

Does it help the Gringos to "let" a Mexican national win the Baja 1000 now and then? Especially now the 1st time in 43 years a Mexican national has "won" ?

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 10:35 AM

Yes he is from Mexicali.

His sponsors are Mexicana Logistics, Red Bull, BFG, Mastercraft, MSD, Papas Y Beer, California Metals, Fox, and Eibach.

He purchased the truck 9 years ago. Probably built in AZ by one of the TT builders.

I don't know what he owns, probably companies in both the US and Mexico. He must have money or connections because to run and maintain a TT cost a lot. He has done well in racing too. He came in second at the 2007 1000 to Cabo. No body lets anybody win a Baja race you do it with your team. Ask Robby Gordon if he would let someone else win.

Most Mexicans race in the smaller car and truck classes and on motorcycles and ATVs and they have won in many of those classes over the years. The late Mike Leon owner of Mike's Sky Rancho won many times as have his nephews the Tisnados (sp). This years 1000 had Pancho Bio class 1600, juan Flores class 1, Danilo Cesena class 1600, Alejandro Lozano class 1600, Sergio Moreno class 5, Alonso Angulo class 5, The Arambula brothers class 5 but have also raced in several truck classes over the years, 803 Juan Lopez, Ivan Ramirez on 7X the KTM factory backed team, 103X was an all Mexican team, as was 149X, 150X was a Calexico/ Mexicali team, 301X a mixed team, as was 306X, 2A, 106A 107A,. 1405 and many more. The Sportsman bike classes had several Mexicans some teamed with Americans. Class 11 had 4 entries two were Mexican including the many time champion Eric Solorzano.

Frankly from your original statement I don't think you know much about the racing and it's affect on the economy. Why don't you ask the local business what affect it has. Better yet go to San Felipe and ask them what happened when the 250 race was moved from there to Ensenada a couple of years ago. I agree some ranchers don't like it but the ones where it crosses their land sure seem to like the money it brings.

To state that more like 80% of the crowd is unemployed is taking it a bit far. Granted the kids may not be employed and many of the moms may not be employed outside the home.

I should add that the ranchers probably don't like the pre-running most of all and they don't mind race day, it's just one day.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by TW]

BajaBlanca - 12-28-2010 at 10:40 AM

what a moving story .... go Marines.

gnukid - 12-28-2010 at 10:47 AM

Baja 1000 is a very important race to the people of Baja California Sur who enjoy the spirit of the race and the idea of challenging the Baja and winning! In la Paz nearly every mechanic has some relationship or affiliation to a race team of sorts. While the local participation may actually be low, the passion is within almost everyone. The race cars are everywhere off and on the road and that's part of life here. So, no, it's not going away.

As to the question of money and funding, it's complicated certainly, we may never understand where the money comes and goes to, like any race series.

The injuries and deaths that occur are tragedies but that's an aspect of the race. If you do not want to be at risk stay away and inside is the best policy.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by gnukid]

sanquintinsince73 - 12-28-2010 at 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Baja 1000 is a very important race to the people of Baja California Sur who enjoy the spirit of the race and the idea of challenging the Baja and winning! In la Paz nearly every mechanic has some relationship or affiliation to a race team of sorts. While the local participation may actually be low, the passion is within almost everyone. The race cars are everywhere off and on the road and that's part of life here. So, no, it's not going away.

As to the question of money and funding, it's complicated certainly, we may never understand where the money comes and goes to, like any race series.

The injuries and deaths that occur are tragedies but that's an aspect of the race. If you do not want to be at risk stay away and inside is the best policy.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by gnukid]

Damn......I agree with you.

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Baja 1000 is a very important race to the people of Baja California Sur who enjoy the spirit of the race and the idea of challenging the Baja and winning! In la Paz nearly every mechanic has some relationship or affiliation to a race team of sorts. While the local participation may actually be low, the passion is within almost everyone. The race cars are everywhere off and on the road and that's part of life here. So, no, it's not going away.


You know GnuKid...where do you get your information? If the Baja 1000 is soooo important to Baja Sur then how do you explain this (this is a quote from SCORE's website specifically from the Irvine SCORE Awards Banquet published Dec. 11, 2010):

"In front of a festive crowd of nearly 400, the evening was also a celebration of 37 years of SCORE championship desert racing. SCORE President/CEO Sal Fish also announced that the 2011 Tecate SCORE Baja 1000 will be an adventure around the northern part of Mexico’s Baja California peninsula and a new agreement with the government of Ensenada to host SCORE Baja races for several more years. Fish also confirmed that there will be a SCORE race next September 9-10 and will announce details by the end of the month, completing the five-race 2011 SCORE Desert Series schedule."

Did you get that Gnukid ? "Sal Fish also announced that the 2011 Tecate SCORE Baja 1000 will be an adventure around the northern part of Mexico’s Baja California peninsula." What happened to Baja Sur, the mechanics, the race cars being everywhere? Looks like they got "stiffed" in 2011. So much for your "observations".

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 11:16 AM

Gunkid you are absolutely right, it is the passion that drives most if not all in racing. Nobody will get rich racing off road. You need sponsors and/or deep pockets of your own or family and friends to even race a motorcycle.

DianaT - 12-28-2010 at 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid


The injuries and deaths that occur are tragedies but that's an aspect of the race. If you do not want to be at risk stay away and inside is the best policy.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by gnukid]


Even though that Marine says he is no angel, I doubt he will ever convince that family of that! He happened to be in the right place at the right time and jumped in to put his training to work without hesitation----he will always be their hero. :yes:

On race day, I agree that everyone not involved is better off just to hide away. However, this was not during the race and the pre-race rules were not being followed ---a very different story, I believe.

Good thing the hero Marine was following the rules----

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 11:23 AM

ElFaro SCORE only runs the full length to La Paz or Cabo every 2 or 3 years. The reason is the cost for the racers is much more expensive to go the distance. Pits, chasers, spare parts etc. A Baja 1000 in loop form is little more than a Baja 500 race, an extra 150 miles maybe over much of the same course. It's much easier and cost much less. You really need to do a little history study on Baja racing. The SCORE race Sal was talking about is in place of the Primm race in NV not Baja. The Ensenada part is for the start of the race. Ensenada doesn't want Mexicali to get it like they did in 93 and 94.

BajaGringo - 12-28-2010 at 11:29 AM

Personally I am not really that into off-road racing but a lot of my friends here in the San Quintin area are very big fans. Many of them participate in the dozens of off-road events each year throughout the peninsula and even take time off work to follow the big events all the way down to the finish line.

Some actually drive in the races (one finished 2nd in his class in the recent 1000), others work in the pits and most just seem to enjoy watching the sport.

They are all Mexicans and employed, which tend to provide an argument against a portion of the OP's original point.

Edited to add the fact that the Castañeda and Vindiola families here in San Quintin are very big backers of the sport and may be known to some here who participate in the events...


[Edited on 12-28-2010 by BajaGringo]

BajaGeoff - 12-28-2010 at 11:31 AM

It was an unfortunate accident that could have been avoided....kudos to Kent and Jeremy for their heroic actions.

The racing community as a whole spends a fortune in Baja every year. From hotels to restaurants to tiendas to taco stands there is a lot of money being pumped into the economy, and the business owners appreciate it. Even when racers are not participating in SCORE or CODE events, they are still coming down to ride and have fun in Baja.

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Frankly from your original statement I don't think you know much about the racing and it's affect on the economy. Why don't you ask the local business what affect it has. Better yet go to San Felipe and ask them what happened when the 250 race was moved from there to Ensenada a couple of years ago. I agree some ranchers don't like it but the ones where it crosses their land sure seem to like the money it brings.

To state that more like 80% of the crowd is unemployed is taking it a bit far. Granted the kids may not be employed and many of the moms may not be employed outside the home.

I should add that the ranchers probably don't like the pre-running most of all and they don't mind race day, it's just one day.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by TW]


I don't think you know much about racing and its effect on the economy either but in the opposite direction. Your paradigm is that racing is somehow bringing big $'s into Baja and I flat out disagree based on what I have seen.

For example a large chunk of racers take all their equipment, tools, racing vehicles, support gear, living quarters down with them in toy haulers and park at camp grounds and pay nominal fees to overnight. I saw this first hand at Estero Beach Resort. Virtually all of them stay in the campground at $35/nite...not the $ 100/nite at the hotel. They then bring down all their food...I saw "chow lines" at specific toy haulers just for this purpose at meal times. This avoids going to the restaurants for meals. They have their own mechanics with their own tools working on their own vehicles inside the campground out of sight of local Mexicans. So other than a few Coronas, tacos, and some gas what is all the money being spent on? Local Mexicans aren't spending money...they don't have any for other than survival. And for the Gringos winning the Baja 1000 what is the reward ? A racer told me...BRAGGING RIGHTS..that's all.

I work in the electric utility industry and I have had involvement with CFE and economic development in Baja both highs and lows. We're talking in the 100's of millions of US dollars here (the LNG terminal alone above Ensenada is what over a billion dollar investment in Baja) and racing is by comparison pennys and maybe a nickel...doesn't even blip on the economic radar screen.

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
ElFaro SCORE only runs the full length to La Paz or Cabo every 2 or 3 years. The reason is the cost for the racers is much more expensive to go the distance. Pits, chasers, spare parts etc. A Baja 1000 in loop form is little more than a Baja 500 race, an extra 150 miles maybe over much of the same course. It's much easier and cost much less. You really need to do a little history study on Baja racing. The SCORE race Sal was talking about is in place of the Primm race in NV not Baja. The Ensenada part is for the start of the race. Ensenada doesn't want Mexicali to get it like they did in 93 and 94.


Hey TW...your talking to the wrong guy here...tell this to Gnukid...I guess the Baja Sur crowd will have to keep their "enthusiasm" up for 2-3 years until the Baja 1000 comes 'round their way. But then maybe they know it won't be back for 2-3 years....but it didn't sound like that the way Gnukid put it!

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGeoff
The racing community as a whole spends a fortune in Baja every year. From hotels to restaurants to tiendas to taco stands there is a lot of money being pumped into the economy, and the business owners appreciate it. Even when racers are not participating in SCORE or CODE events, they are still coming down to ride and have fun in Baja.


I don't agree...check my post above from what I observed at Estero Beach Resort.

TMW - 12-28-2010 at 12:17 PM

I doubt that off road racing can compete with a 100 million dollar project but to me that's apple and oranges. Yes many crews do camp out and bring their own food. But many others do stay in hotels. I do and the people I crew for do too. Many eat in resturantes, I do. Try booking a room within a few days for any SCORE race next year and then tell us how easy it was. And I don't mean some flea bag hotel miles away for $20. As for as tools you got to be kidding, nobody in their right mind would be out looking to find tools when at the race unless they broke theirs. Like I said go ask the hotel, bar, resturante, Pemex, fast food, convient stores like OXXY, 7-11 and other shops etc.

bajalou - 12-28-2010 at 12:23 PM

No mater what you're observations are, they really don't apply to the entire racing community. When the 250 runs in San Felipe, ALL hotel/motel rooms are booked weeks in advance - at premium prices for busy times. A race team for the TTs will rent 8 to 15 rooms for anywhere from a week to a month to cover pre-running as well as the race. And the local restaurants are full of racers and the support personnel. Local mechanics and parts stores are busy helping with last minute repairs.

Last year, the locals spent their own money cutting miles of roads for the race to run between canyons. The business community, the local workers, the entire town WANTS racing here. This one race brings millions of dollars to the local community.

I'm sure the other races do the same for Ensenada and other towns they visit.

Curt63 - 12-28-2010 at 12:26 PM

Heres a picture of the chickenchit

Jenkins Brothers

Seriously Nomads. The buttcrack makes all offroaders in Baja look bad.

This guy needs to do the right thing and SCORE needs to crucify the bastard publicly.

David K - 12-28-2010 at 12:32 PM

When people, any people, come to Baja from north of the border for any reason IT IS GOOD FOR BAJA.

People spend money... gas stations, taco stands, markets, charter boats, tire repairs, bars, restaurants, motels, camp grounds... Where-ever they do it, spending money in one place spreads the wealth to others. All those businesses hire others or buy products for their business... money keeps moving from one to another... basic economics.

If you want to start a TREE HUGGER 1000 and see if the number of people come to Baja to hug 1000 trees comes anywhere close to what Baja racing does... that would be GREAT... DO IT!

The off road racing community pumps all sorts of money into Mexico and racers and fans return to Baja the rest of the year to enjoy the other things there, and to help orphanages, too.

Sadly, people are killed and injured by others/ non-racers, all year long... A race is not to blame, poor judgement is.

Cyanide41 - 12-28-2010 at 12:37 PM

Only on this board can we take a heart warming story about Marines saving this guys life after an unfortunate (and avoidable) accident and turn it into a debate.

El Faro, because you don't know that the baja 1000 does a loop from Ensenada to San Felipe every other year, tells me that don't know much about this race. Did you get that El Faro? They have been running this northern loop format for years.

How can you say that local buisness in Ensenada does not flurish during this race? Hotels are sold out, bars and restaruants are packed, even the guy hawking chiclets sees increased sales. Now let's take a second to look at buisnesses that rely on offroading, from a local taller, to Meling Ranch.

I could sit here all day an knit pick all the crap you just spit out, but I don't have the kind of time. The only thing you said that has any merit is that the Ranchers are unhappy about people tearing up the back country. Offroaders everywhere need to take better care of the land they tread on.

[Edited on 12-28-2010 by Cyanide41]

Brian L - 12-28-2010 at 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

If you want to start a TREE HUGGER 1000 and see if the number of people come to Baja to hug 1000 trees comes anywhere close to what Baja racing does... that would be GREAT... DO IT!


Sign me up! Wait, do these trees have spines?

BajaGeoff - 12-28-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:
Sign me up! Wait, do these trees have spines?


No....that is the Cactus 1000.

DianaT - 12-28-2010 at 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Curt63
Heres a picture of the chickenpoop

Jenkins Brothers

Seriously Nomads. The buttcrack makes all offroaders in Baja look bad.

This guy needs to do the right thing and SCORE needs to crucify the bastard publicly.


I looked at his site, followed it to his racing site and his racing news and this is what it says.

Quote:

Mike Jenkins' Baja 1000 Run Ends Abruptly With a Crash During a Pre-race Shakedown Run. The #86 Trophy Truck piloted by Mike Jenkins was damaged in crash that occurred during a pre-race shakedown run late yesterday (November 17). Mike was uninjured, but the damage to the truck was extensive enough to take the #86 out of the running for the 2010 Baja 1000.


Seems to be some missing information. :no::no: With the missing information the priorities are rather evident.

BajaGringo - 12-28-2010 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
I looked at his site, followed it to his racing site and his racing news and this is what it says.

Quote:

Mike Jenkins' Baja 1000 Run Ends Abruptly With a Crash During a Pre-race Shakedown Run. The #86 Trophy Truck piloted by Mike Jenkins was damaged in crash that occurred during a pre-race shakedown run late yesterday (November 17). Mike was uninjured, but the damage to the truck was extensive enough to take the #86 out of the running for the 2010 Baja 1000.


Seems to be some missing information. :no::no: With the missing information the priorities are rather evident.


I agree Diana and just sent them an email from their website saying so. I truly hope that the racing community ostracizes this creep...

gnukid - 12-28-2010 at 12:59 PM

El Faro,

I am for safety and ecology and not the negative aspects of racing, but I am also for the right of people to pursue their passion and dreams in sports. I personally do find the sport to be out of control at times and I stay out of the way as the racers drive by my house all night long at full speed during races.

In La Paz at least the idea of the race is very influential among children and all types of people even though we may not attend the race. Everyone imagines the chance of doing it and many mechanics build race cars, though not to complete in the Baja 1000.

In the past I would follow the race and I did find it to be dangerous so I stopped, but I would not deny the dreams of others to pursue the sport or any other, while we keep in mind that sports are dangerous, bike-riding, running, sailing, car racing etc...

DianaT - 12-28-2010 at 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
I looked at his site, followed it to his racing site and his racing news and this is what it says.

Quote:

Mike Jenkins' Baja 1000 Run Ends Abruptly With a Crash During a Pre-race Shakedown Run. The #86 Trophy Truck piloted by Mike Jenkins was damaged in crash that occurred during a pre-race shakedown run late yesterday (November 17). Mike was uninjured, but the damage to the truck was extensive enough to take the #86 out of the running for the 2010 Baja 1000.


Seems to be some missing information. :no::no: With the missing information the priorities are rather evident.


I agree Diana and just sent them an email from their website saying so. I truly hope that the racing community ostracizes this creep...


That, I think, is a very good idea---

Like you, offroad racing is not my favorite sport, but many love it including a number of our local friends in Bahia Asuncion and more are getting involved in one way or another. And the local stuff can be a lot of fun---except the damage to the roads.

His behavior, unfortunately, reflects poorly on many. And even if he were to apologize now, it would still reflect poorly on his character that he needed to hear from others that what he did was wrong and what he wrote on his webpage was, well-----

Hope the Marine receives more kudos and recognition.

Sweetwater - 12-28-2010 at 02:43 PM

Well, I'm going to speak up here:

I came to Baja for my first visit as part of a motorcycle race team. There were 7 of us, 3 chasers/pit crew (me) and 4 racers, one is a woman. Without this opportunity to experience Baja during the pre-run, race and return home, I might not have been adventurous enough to explore the peninsula and meet many fine folks on my own.

Because of my positive experience, I'll be back soon, the trip and dates are planned. Don't paint with such broad strokes and we'll all get along some how....most of us played by the rules and did not cause accidents....unlike some active spectators who booby trapped sections of the race...and that is also nothing new.

I don't condone the cause of the accident if it was truly an issue with the racer but I applaud the individual who stepped up and saved a man. See you soon.......

ElFaro - 12-28-2010 at 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou
No mater what you're observations are, they really don't apply to the entire racing community. When the 250 runs in San Felipe, ALL hotel/motel rooms are booked weeks in advance - at premium prices for busy times. A race team for the TTs will rent 8 to 15 rooms for anywhere from a week to a month to cover pre-running as well as the race. And the local restaurants are full of racers and the support personnel. Local mechanics and parts stores are busy helping with last minute repairs.

Last year, the locals spent their own money cutting miles of roads for the race to run between canyons. The business community, the local workers, the entire town WANTS racing here. This one race brings millions of dollars to the local community.

I'm sure the other races do the same for Ensenada and other towns they visit.


Yea...all the hotels, bars, and restaurants that are left (which aren't many) after being crushed by this economy.

As for the "millions of dollars" brought to the community by one race...show me the hard figures broken down by category. If so many millions are pumped in, why has the local community shrunk?

The local community WANTS racing because with 80% unemployment in these local villages...THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. To them it's something rather than nothing.

BTW...I know of a "taco stand" in Ensenada that was popular with the racing crowd taking in all kinds of $'s but still had to close down...there is simply no business the rest of the year....hey David K current simple economics.

Cap - 12-28-2010 at 05:28 PM

The economy in Mexico is bad?:O:O

Im shocked..

Off road racing brings ALOT of revenue to Baja. Watch the ramps of all the associated airports fill up with Jet fuel burning planes around race time. Support crews fill rooms and eat and drink and take taxis, and buy fuel of all flavors. Is it a perfect system of consistent revenue? No. Does it bring interest and mostly good press to the area? Absolutely!

People with an axe to grind will always have isolated negative examples to beat you with but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

David K - 12-28-2010 at 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro
...
BTW...I know of a "taco stand" in Ensenada that was popular with the racing crowd taking in all kinds of $'s but still had to close down...there is simply no business the rest of the year....hey David K current simple economics.


Yah ElFaro, your socialist/ re-distribution buddies not only wrecked our economy in the U.S. but everywhere else that depended on U.S. tourism for an income!

DianaT - 12-28-2010 at 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro
...
BTW...I know of a "taco stand" in Ensenada that was popular with the racing crowd taking in all kinds of $'s but still had to close down...there is simply no business the rest of the year....hey David K current simple economics.


Yah ElFaro, your socialist/ re-distribution buddies not only wrecked our economy in the U.S. but everywhere else that depended on U.S. tourism for an income!


Do you really need to start a political discussion, again? Good troll work, but really belongs in off-topic.

David K - 12-28-2010 at 06:56 PM

It is economics, not off topic... I was responding to what ElFaro was posting (lies about the economy of off road racing).. why not address errors posted by those of your own politic views? :rolleyes:

DavidK

DianaT - 12-28-2010 at 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
It is economics, not off topic... I was responding to what ElFaro was posting (lies about the economy of off road racing).. why not address errors posted by those of your own politic views? :rolleyes:


There are people on ALL sides of the political spectrum who agree and or disagree about if the Baja races are a positive or negative economic, environmental, etc. influence in Baja.

I do and do not agree with the arguments made by El Faro, but I do not see anywhere where he has brought politics into the conversation---and frankly, I have zero knowledge of what are his politics.

But I guess maybe you cannot see the difference, or maybe you assume since he disagrees with you his politics are different, ----who knows----but your statement is clearly a political assumption and statement and a troll.


[Edited on 12-29-2010 by DianaT]

Marc - 12-28-2010 at 08:28 PM

A few years back I spent some time with a Score race veteran and listened to some really scary stories about the race and the people connected with it. I love to watch anyway; uphill and on the inside of the curve.

torch - 12-28-2010 at 08:50 PM

uphill and on the inside of the curve.


yep thats the way

PT9Baja - 12-29-2010 at 01:40 AM

Score races in Baja are only a part of the Baja off road culture. There are several Mexican racing associations , with many races in Baja and on the mainland. Look up Code off road racing for an example. There are Mexican racing events in all the major cities in Baja. Off road racing is a part of Baja ,and not a gringo invasion or exploitation. For the most part the Score races and race teams are welcomed by the communities involved and the people of Baja. They are not going to turn the economy around but can be and often are the best week of the year for tourist based businesses.

capt. mike - 12-29-2010 at 06:31 AM

news flash...economics IS politics.

the race loops local and alternates with a run all the way south.

the 1000 ain't going away soon and Mexico LOVES it!!

wilderone - 12-29-2010 at 10:25 AM

Doesn't have anything to do with politics - just money and egos. The TTs are a substitute for youknowwhat. Any semblance of adult responsibility and respect is decidedly lacking in Baja SCORE races. This story needs to be in Sports Illustrated - why isn't it? Jenkins should be in jail for reckless driving and causing great bodily injury. The entire thread should be sent to racing magazines - do they have the integrity to do the right thing, or just pretend it's all good and justify the glory of winning at any cost? Just children playing with bigger toys.

rob - 12-29-2010 at 10:36 AM

Once the B1000 was probably an exciting event in small rural communities - now with TV and better access to the bright lights, there is a rising local tide of protest against the collateral damage inflicted by this spectacle. Many Pacific Baja Sur roads, once rural and with little traffic, are now much busier and are left in a terrible state, inflicting damage on all vehicles who have to use them (the mounds of garbage left by urban spectators are relatively harmless).

Sal Fish (race owner), charming and smiling, personally promised us that the road would be graded after the 2007 race, and put us in touch with then-Secretary of Tourism as a backup (Trasviña - now running for mayor of Cabo). After the race, the Secretary wrung his hands and said he could do nothing. In fairness to him, the road WAS graded - three years later.

A couple of comments to some of the postings:

TW - "The Score offical pre-run speed is 25mph or the posted speed limit and they are warned that the course is open to local traffic except on race day." This is, of course, a bad joke. We have to put up with 2-3 weeks of pre-runners coming down the course at insane speeds at all hours, plus the fact that "the course" is the only access for the local communities- the amazing thing is that there are not more fatalities. This year, the race was cunningly scheduled for the Nov 19th school marching and sports day - this meant that parents of local school kids had to get their children to mustering points along the the same roads being used by the B1000 as a raceway. Insane.

TW - "I should add that the ranchers probably don't like the pre-running most of all and they don't mind race day, it's just one day." See above.

Gnukid - "The injuries and deaths that occur are tragedies but that's an aspect of the race." I can't think of a polite comment, unless he is referring to drivers casualties, not collateral injuries.

Bajalou - " . . the locals spent their own money cutting miles of roads for the race to run between canyons". Anyone who did that ín this locality would be regarded as totalmente loco . . .

DavidK - "Sadly, people are killed and injured by others/ non-racers, all year long... A race is not to blame, poor judgement is." This is the same argument for legal automatic weapons, and equally fatuous.

Gnukid - "I am for safety and ecology and not the negative aspects of racing, but I am also for the right of people to pursue their passion and dreams in sports." I think that covers all of the political bases.

capt. mike - "news flash...economics IS politics."

Totally true - my beef is basically that the rural communities bear an unfair share of the economic burden for the B1000 - the money, such as it is, is made by hotels and bars - the rest of us in this neighborhood just pay. I recommend buying shares in Monroe and Moog . .

David K - 12-29-2010 at 11:05 AM

The local ejidos can refuse to allow the race across their land... and that is why the San Felipe 250 was moved to Ensenada and renamed the Baja 250 a couple of years ago... All because one ejido said no. Of course, that devistated the economy of San Felipe that year... and perhaps through more 'incentives' that ejido allowed the race to return the next year.

So, what is stopping OTHER ejidos or municipos from saying no to SCORE or controlling which roads are used for the race?

[Edited on 12-29-2010 by David K]

Curt63 - 12-29-2010 at 11:33 AM

Wilder, Well said!

Donation site for James Lamb and family

ElFaro - 12-29-2010 at 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The local ejidos can refuse to allow the race across their land... and that is why the San Felipe 250 was moved to Ensenada and renamed the Baja 250 a couple of years ago... All because one ejido said no. Of course, that devistated the economy of San Felipe that year... and perhaps through more 'incentives' that ejido allowed the race to return the next year.


Can you demonstrate to us a direct correlation between the decision of that ejido and the collapse of the San Felipe economy "a couple years" ago ?...because around that time all of Baja was taking a hit from the US side downturn. You can't make these generalized statements w/o backing them up with facts.

Can someone (e.g. Don Julio) enlighten us about what was the major cause of the San Felipe economy collapse "a couple years ago" ?

ElFaro - 12-29-2010 at 01:17 PM

David K...I couldn't simply let this pass w/o comment...
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
When people, any people, come to Baja from north of the border for any reason IT IS GOOD FOR BAJA.


Oh really?...OK let's see...

How about the two girls from East Lake (Chula Vista) who went down to TJ w/ "boyfriends" one of which led them into a house in Playas and they all wound up shot and killed, rolled up in carpets and stuffed into a SUV parked in a remote ballfield in TJ ?
OR
The American guy who sold all those weapons to that Mexican gang and he delivered to them and the gang killed 19 or 20 members of that family in Ensenada about 15-20 years ago?
OR
The American guy killed recently in the village next to the Fox Studios who was operating a smuggling ring from there?
OR
The bounty hunters who think they are going down to TJ to bring back Mexicans for unpaid debts.
and I could go on and on...ALL THIS GOOD FOR BAJA?
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
People spend money... gas stations, taco stands, markets, charter boats, tire repairs, bars, restaurants, motels, camp grounds... Where-ever they do it, spending money in one place spreads the wealth to others. All those businesses hire others or buy products for their business... money keeps moving from one to another... basic economics.

This not "basic economics" but DavidK simpleton economics.

I find it interesting and convenient that you left out one tiny little but crucially important element in your "basic economics" lesson to all of us...you forgot about THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS. Do you have any clue of the cost to do business in Baja? Go ask any of these vendors, small businesses, ranchers, restaurenteurs, hotel owners. Baja is one of the highest cost states in Mexico to do business. And these costs only ratchet in one direction...up. You think in your "basic economics" lesson that these costs are minimal to non-existant...you are woefully mistaken. Govt. permits (local, state, federal), power costs, labor laws, transportation, wholesale costs, to name a few siphon's off most of this "spreads the wealth to others" you think exists.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
If you want to start a TREE HUGGER 1000 and see if the number of people come to Baja to hug 1000 trees comes anywhere close to what Baja racing does... that would be GREAT... DO IT!

I don't have a clue what relevance this has to the discussion...maybe you could simply try to answer some of the questions I posed with some cogent thoughtfull replies instead of the "stuck pig" approach.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The off road racing community pumps all sorts of money into Mexico and racers and fans return to Baja the rest of the year to enjoy the other things there, and to help orphanages, too.

If you are referring to the orphanage the 100 off-road bikers showed up at (Rho. Santa Marta) after tearing up the beaches in their "Baja Beach Bash" (see video posted on Nomad a few months back) and "donating" $378...again do you have any clue of the current status of that orphanage? They are really hurting financially...a lot of donations have dropped off. And do you have any clue what it costs to run an orphanage in Baja? $10,000, $30,000, $50,000, $75,000 per year ? If those 100 bikers had given $100 each cash I would have been impressed...but $378?...what $3.78 per biker?...a pack of cigarettes worth each and off we go back to tearing up the beaches...as you say..ah yes freedom.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Sadly, people are killed and injured by others/ non-racers, all year long... A race is not to blame, poor judgement is.

The race is very much partly to blame because of one crucial difference...unlike the vehicle killings and injuries "all year long" because people have to live and survive...the Baja 1000 race is not a "need" in Baja but a "want" and "thrill" by the weathy Gringos who have regarded Baja as their "sandbox" these 43 years.

Baja 1000 - Everyone Buying Gas

ElFaro - 12-29-2010 at 01:37 PM

A number of posters to this thread refer to buying gas/diesel locally as part of "spreading the wealth" around. Just focusing on petroleum purchases only...where do you think your $'s go after Pemex is paid? Remember...Pemex is the Mexican govt. Your money goes to Pemex in Mexico City to pay for refined petroleum products imported from the US and a host of other things related to providing Mexico with petroleum products.

David K ...here is a homework assignment for you...ask your friend who owns the Pemex station in El Rosario how much of the price of a liter of gas or diesel he gets to keep? If he has the answer in $US/gal. fine if $Mex/ltr we can convert.

I know for a fact that of the private gas station owners in San Diego that are left they only keep about a penny per gallon. Hard to believe a Pemex station owner would keep much more than that.

BajaGeoff - 12-29-2010 at 01:44 PM

Um.....El Faro....the Baja Beach Bash raised $3,400 dollars....not $378. I shot the video myself and was at the orphanage when the donation was presented to Bill. Considering how tough a year 2009-10 was economically, I think $3,400 is a nice contribution. The visit also brought a lot of smiles to the kids and the riders alike, which you can't really put a price tag on.

[Edited on 12-29-2010 by BajaGeoff]

ElFaro - 12-29-2010 at 01:53 PM

BajaGeoff...my apologies...I thought I heard the guy say $378 collected in the video...but $3400 / 100 riders is $34/ea...at least it helped them for a couple of weeks or so. It would be nice if the riders could give that each month from that point on...they really need the help.

Brian L - 12-29-2010 at 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro
BajaGeoff...my apologies...I thought I heard the guy say $378 collected in the video...but $3400 / 100 riders is $34/ea...at least it helped them for a couple of weeks or so. It would be nice if the riders could give that each month from that point on...they really need the help.


So now your posting has gone from complaining about racers to saying $3400 isn't enough?

BajaGeoff - 12-29-2010 at 02:01 PM

Well....let's hope that things improve going into the new year. I know the Beach Bash raised well over 5K the year prior.

ElFaro - 12-29-2010 at 02:01 PM

Well Blane...what do you think it costs (per month) to run an orphange? A one time contribution only goes so far.

Brian L - 12-29-2010 at 02:40 PM

I'm sure it does, but it almost sounds like you are saying don't bother giving...

David K - 12-29-2010 at 02:42 PM

What do you do to 'help' Baja, ElFaro?

Host any web sites?
Promote Baja businesses?
Provide travel information?
Travel yourself and stay at various places in Baja?

Or, do you just like to come to this (the #1) Baja forum and complain and spin answers to get the result you seek???

PT9Baja - 12-29-2010 at 04:12 PM

The driver involved in the accident after admitting to his terrible mistake has taken responcibility and is doing the right thing for the injured party and his family. The off road racing community has had an ongoing discussion on Race Dezert.com since it happened. Its in the desert racing forum under the title Mayhem RG alluded to. Its a long thread but worth reading if you want to broaden you perspective . You keep ignoring the fact that off road is a Mexican sport with many Mexican races , Mexican racers and support industry and Mexican fans . Its a passion for many Mexicans. There as likely to kick it out of Baja as they are of closing Mex 1 the next time someone gets killed on the road.

TMW - 12-29-2010 at 05:04 PM

I don't think anything is going to show Elfaro that off road racing is overall a plus for Baja. He has a closed mind and thats it. As they say "it is what it is". I think Bajalou says it best,["Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference"].

DianaT - 12-29-2010 at 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
I don't think anything is going to show Elfaro that off road racing is overall a plus for Baja. He has a closed mind and thats it. As they say "it is what it is". I think Bajalou says it best,["Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference"].


Gees, just because he disagrees about off-road racing the name calling starts?



[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]

David K - 12-29-2010 at 05:27 PM

Truth and Facts upset folks like ElFaro more than anything... they will resort to name calling when they cannot respond with logic to back up their wild claims.

You would think he would want to be enlightened and see the benefit that more business brings to Mexico. So what if the Pemex station franchise owner makes 10 cents on the dollar or less... It is still enough for him to employ people and stay in business to serve all others. You should like it that government makes far more profit on each gallon sold, just like in the U.S.!?? Grocery stores also have small profit margins... but thankfully it is enough to keep them in business for everyone's benefit!

DianaT - 12-29-2010 at 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Truth and Facts upset folks like ElFaro more than anything... they will resort to name calling when they cannot respond with logic to back up their wild claims.



Can you please point out where El Faro did any name calling?

I don't totally agree with what all he has written, but I can't seem to find any name calling on his part? Or is that just a general statement about the "folks like El Faro" who ever they may be? I am guessing that maybe they are anyone who does not agree with you???

Please clarify.

Thank you

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]

TMW - 12-29-2010 at 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by TW
I don't think anything is going to show Elfaro that off road racing is overall a plus for Baja. He has a closed mind and thats it. As they say "it is what it is". I think Bajalou says it best,["Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference"].


Gees, just because he disagrees about off-road racing the name calling starts?

Diana perhaps I should not of used that quote but the fact remains he was given numerous data to show that off road racing did benefit the communities involved and I asked him more that once to talk to the businesses and get their take on it and from his replies he was not going to even consider it. He not once acknowledged that off road racing has any benefit and that the people watching it were near 80% unemployed. He also said that the racers let Vildosila win the last 1000 which is a stupid statement. He said Mexican racers made up only a small part of the racers which is also stupid. He did not know that the 1000 was more often a loop race than a run down south. Frankly the guy doesn't know what he is talking about and gave no credible facts to support his position. So what is one to think?



[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]

DianaT - 12-29-2010 at 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by TW
I don't think anything is going to show Elfaro that off road racing is overall a plus for Baja. He has a closed mind and thats it. As they say "it is what it is". I think Bajalou says it best,["Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference"].


Gees, just because he disagrees about off-road racing the name calling starts?

Diana perhaps I should not of used that quote but the fact remains he was given numerous data to show that off road racing did benefit the communities involved and I asked him more that once to talk to the businesses and get their take on it and from his replies he was not going to even consider it. He not once acknowledged that off road racing has any benefit and that the people watching it were near 80% unemployed. He also said that the racers let Vildosila win the last 1000 which is a stupid statement. He said Mexican racers made up only a small part of the racers which is also stupid. He did not know that the 1000 was more often a loop race than a run down south. Frankly the guy doesn't know what he is talking about and gave no credible facts to support his position. So what is one to think?



[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]


OK, you obviously very much disagree with him---but I was surprised you used that quote---directed at an individual ---surprised at it coming from you.

Guess I still understand several of his points, but also do understand some of the other side as well. And in the end, it is Mexico and it really is up to them to decided what they want ----

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]

David K - 12-29-2010 at 06:42 PM

Diana: I never said he called me any names... I did say that when presented with truth and facts 'usually' (some) liberals can only respond with name calling and throwing out stuff like "you get that from Rush or Beck, etc.".

You see is is a simple matter of Logic vs. Emotion... Conservatives use logic (facts) and (some) liberals use emotion (feelings) to argue their points.

Now, ElFaro has said unkind things before and used this theology I have given, in the past... So his new 'enviromental wacko / anti-business' stuff above is so far playing the same game... I expect name calling to soon follow.

Too bad, you couldn't let this stay between me and him... but, I guess you enjoy the drama? Have a nice evening!:D

DianaT - 12-29-2010 at 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Diana: I never said he called me any names... I did say that when presented with truth and facts 'usually' (some) liberals can only respond with name calling and throwing out stuff like "you get that from Rush or Beck, etc.".


Where did you post that? I missed that. I only saw this
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Truth and Facts upset folks like ElFaro more than anything... they will resort to name calling when they cannot respond with logic to back up their wild claims.


Are the words usually and some there?

No drama, David, just looking for some clarifications for your blanket statements.

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]

Brian L - 12-29-2010 at 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K


You see is is a simple matter of Logic vs. Emotion... Conservatives use logic (facts) and (some) liberals use emotion (feelings) to argue their points.



Hmmppphhh. Should be: SOME Conservatives use logic (facts) and some liberals use emotion...

Too bad some conservatives don't use emotion more often. Nothing wrong with that. It's letting your whole point of view be dominated by one or the other that is troublesome.

Now, Rush and Limbaugh, too bad they use no logic and too much emotion...But, they are just trying to sell airtime, and will say anything to get twits to listen...

burnrope - 12-29-2010 at 07:55 PM

El Faro you're FOS. I'm chagrinned to see that your handle is the same as one of the better Mexican food places in Frisco. Pull your head out of your burro, it's dark in there.

djh - 12-29-2010 at 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Diana: I never said he called me any names... I did say that when presented with truth and facts 'usually' (some) liberals can only respond with name calling and throwing out stuff like "you get that from Rush or Beck, etc.".


Where did you post that? I missed that. I only saw this
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Truth and Facts upset folks like ElFaro more than anything... they will resort to name calling when they cannot respond with logic to back up their wild claims.


Are the words usually and some there?

No drama, David, just looking for some clarifications for your blanket statements.

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by DianaT]


Diana is correct. You're "slippin all over the road on this one" David.... Wow, IMHO, an apology would be the responsible and appropriate thing to do, my friend.

BTW: Instead of saying " 'usually' (some) liberals can only respond with name calling . . . " can't you just say "some people...." What you're referring to is a human imperfection that is not limited to one party or political philosophy. I've followed some of these spats you've gotten into when you "respond with name calling and throwing out stuff like" (your quote, amigo) "LIBERALS...." [do this or that].

That belongs in the political / off topic forum. The whole board could be better via a bit more mutual respect....

It is easy to respect like minded folks.... we really show OUR character when we are respectful to folks who have a different opinions or views than we do.

I've been following this post with mixed thoughts and feelings. I'm very sad for the innocent victims ~ and a bit shocked by the racer / driver's initial actions and comments. And I am a racer.... albeit in another form. (My bro. and I have had a vintage Formula V that we've raced with the SOVREN race group at the tracks in Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, etc.) It is open wheel to wheel track racing and there is an incredible community of really fine folks that compete ON the track and help one another off the track... Many of the SOVREN folks would probably hang it up permanently if they were responsible for seriously harming someone innocent like what happened in this unfortunate incident.

David K - 12-29-2010 at 10:35 PM

I am sorry djh,

as usually silly me thought it was okay for conservatives to vent here as much as liberals do... :light::biggrin:

Freedom of speech and opinion here is only okay for the left, I guess???:(

durrelllrobert - 12-30-2010 at 10:10 AM

Anyone remember the Mexican Road (or Carrera Panamericana) races between 1950 and 1954? After the Mexican section of the Panamerican Highway was completed in 1950, a nine-stage, five-day race across the country was organized by the Mexican government to advertise this feat and to attract international business into Mexico. The race ran almost entirely along the new highway, which crossed the country from north to south the first year and south to north afer that, for a total distance of over 3,300 kilometres (2,100 mi) . Antonio Cornejo, a Pontiac dealer in Mexico City, was the general manager of the event. One of the rules of the race was if you stopped to help anyone, you were automatically disqualified and only the driver/ navigator were alowed to work on their car.

A total of 27 lives had been lost in the five years of the race, most of them bystanders, who would simply line the sides of the road with two-ton vehicles hurtling by them at speeds of up to 130 mph! Lincoln and Ferrari had been the most successful makes. Lincoln had three consecutive one-two finishes, two third places and two fourth places in the stock car class. Ferrari had two wins, two seconds and two thirds.

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by durrelllrobert]

David K - 12-30-2010 at 10:33 AM

Great history Bob... I read about them... I think it sure opened up Mexico as being a destination for American vacationers... the travel trailer crowd flowed into Mexico like water.... and many stayed.

The Mexican 1000 (now Baja 1000) also made Baja known to many many people... perhaps the primary source of publicity for Baja in the 1960's and 70's!

Millions if not billions of dollars have flowed into Mexico thanks to those road races... and compared to bull fighting, probably fewer deaths associated overall.

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by David K]

BajaGeoff - 12-30-2010 at 10:49 AM

This thread has drifted waaaay off topic, but I am just going to go with it.

La Carrera is still going strong....it was brought back in 1998.

http://panamrace.com/

Ted Donovan, who has put on the Mexico Travel Expos in the past has participated in La Carrera as part of the Lucha Libre Racing Team. They took it a step further and used the race as a means to raise donated school supplies for Mexican kids: http://www.luchalibreracing.com.

David K - 12-30-2010 at 11:19 AM

Thanks Geoff... there are countless ways that racing... and people who come for the races, have helped Mexico.

durrelllrobert - 12-30-2010 at 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGeoff
This thread has drifted waaaay off topic, but I am just going to go with it.

La Carrera is still going strong....it was brought back in 1998.

http://panamrace.com/


yep, I am aware of this, but with the rally format and all the overnighters and fiestas it's just not the same. Still great racing though and I love to see those old Studebakers, Hudsons, et al go for it.

My Response - Part 1 of ?

ElFaro - 12-30-2010 at 02:19 PM

Well...I guess its my turn to respond.

You know...when I 1st saw this news article from the UT I thought "What are the Marines doing down in Baja?". As I read on my blood began to boil when the story unfolded how a missionary returning from the labor and sweat of helping build an alcholic rehab center is nearly killed and bled to death by a reckless "pre-runner" wannabe down for cheap thrills of the Baja 1000 race. The title of the article should have been "Missionary Helping Mexicans with Alcohol Disease Nearly Killed by Reckless Baja 1000 Prerunner Thrill Seeker. But the UT choose to spin it the way they did because they slobber all over the Marine presence in San
Diego. As TW said "it is what it is". If it had been a couple archaeologists or biomed students who happened on the accident I doubt it would have been spun the same way. In any event I decided to post the acticle with my accompaning comments and figured I would receive the usual verbal bashing from the Off Road Race Cheerleading squad...namely TW and David K, et. al. fine.

Now I asked a question about the Baja 1000 race not going into Baja Sur in 2011 and TW explained that SCORE alternates every year a northern loop route and a full peninsula route. And TW said the reason is the extra expense of support for the full peninsula route and the racers saving money. But this begs a quesion...if the Baja 1000 brings in all this money every year as you claim
and its good for the Baja economy as you say and these racers don't mind spending $250 grand plus for these racing machines and sponsors are involved then they shouldn't have a problem racing the entire peninsula every time! In fact if these kind of races are so profitable as David K and you proclaim and the Mexicans are benefitting from all this financial windfall then why don't they have these trans-peninsular races every month...or bi-weekly?

Now I want to comment about your statements TW to DianaT that you posted 12-30-2010 at 12:3 PM:

You said to DianaT that I was "given numerous data to show that off road racing did benefit the communities involved". I
carefully perused your posts on this issue and all I could come up with is to "check with some local hotels, restaurants, bars, they all fill up...can't get a room...etc. etc. then you said "I asked him more that once to talk to the businesses and get their take on it and from his replies he was not going to even consider it". Really ? I was not going to even consider it ? No...I was not going to answer you on YOUR timetable but I will answer now.

About three years ago my brother and I were returning from a fishing trip in SQ and needed a place to stay in Ensenada. We swung into Estero Beach Hotel Resort for two nights. Little did we know that the Baja 1000 was happening. The campground was maxed out with 80-100 toy haulers, vehicles, entire race teams, helicopters, etc. We were placed next to the games room by the boat launch road. The whole experience was a real "eye opener" for me and altered a lot of my previous mind set of what was going on
there. When we went down to the hotel and restaurant for breakfast, lunch, and dinner they were virtually empty on the days that the race teams and support crews were around. However in the campground there were toy haulers specifically set up to handle the food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for everyone. One of the 1st things I noticed was how much the race teams were totally self-contained in everything...they really didn't need local Mexican goods and services for anything. And I'm not bagging on them if they choose to go this route while in Baja. When I went to the front office to register and pay for the two nights there
behind the counter was one of the owners of the Resort. I don't know his first name but it was the tall big Mr. Novelo. I
introduced myself in Spanish out of respect. After some greeting exchanges I asked him point blank with all the people in the campground if they made much money for all the effort they put in and he said "No". I asked him if the race brought in alot of money to Ensenada and he said "No". I asked him how much longer the race would go on each year and he deferred to the local government for that answer. So here is the testimony of local Ensenada heavy hitters who own hotels, bars, restaurants, campgrounds telling me this. As you said TW...what am I to think?

Another quote from TW..."He not once acknowledged that off road racing has any benefit and that the people watching it were near 80% unemployed". I'll acknowledge it now...but I think there is a HUGE difference between "close course" off-road racing and "open country" off-road racing.

If the Mexicans want to have "close course" racing...I'm all for it 100%...I'll pay to go see it and spend money at the events at local Mexican establishments. The Mexican own it, sponsor it, sanction it, and invite Gringos to participate. Absolutly no problem here...its what they want and if its a growing enterprise great.

For "open counrtry" racing...such as the B1000 and the B500...again...if the Mexicans own, sanction, fund, support, promote, and regulate these kind of races...if the awards are presented in Mexico by Mexicans for Mexicans...AND the Gringos are invited to participate then I'm for it 100%...I will go see it and spend money at the events at local Mexican establishments. But as it is now the events are controlled by the Americans.

Now for the comment you made that "He also said that the racers let Vildosila win the last 1000 which is a stupid statement"...all right maybe a stupid statement..but I'll leave you with this:

I heard last year on a radio off-road talk show that the racers would be placing a decal on their vehicles that read - "Thank you Baja for allowing us to race here." or something similiar. Now I hope it was in Spanish. However I checked some of the truck photos from 2009 and 2010 and couldn't find any with the decal. And if you read the news article from the Irvine awards banquet for the Baja 1000 it says "Among the special awards presented by SCORE and Sal Fish included a very special appreciation recognition to the government of Baja California for all of its assistance to helping SCORE produce three highly successful races in Baja California, Mexico, in 2010. Receiving the award were four prominent Mexican government officials—Enrique Pelayo Torres, Mayor of Ensenada, Juan Tintos Funcke, the Secretary of Tourism of Baja California, Marco Antonio Novelo, Secretary of Tourism of the County of Ensenada and Rodolfo Talamantes, Director of Public Relations of the County of Ensenada." And you have the fact that suddenly after 43 years a Mexican national wins the B1000. So when I look at all these taken together I ask myself "Is SCORE experiencing some PR 'blowback' from disgruntled local Mexicans that this is a Gringos only race and what do we as Mexicans get out of it?" I don't know but the comments from poster rob who has his "feet on the ground' in rural Baja are very telling and none of you challanged him.

Enough for now...next up...your labelling me an idiot and David K labelling me a liar, socialist, "name calling soon to follow" kind of guy and I'll answer David K's question of how I help Baja...what I have been involved in for the last 35+ years doesn't seem to even enter his mind based on his list since it looks like he is mostly through answering my questions with cliches.

Cap - 12-30-2010 at 03:44 PM

Score Racing economic impact
Quote:

“Our three SCORE Baja races annually produce over $30 million in overall economic impact for Mexico and we are so well-received down there by the government and the fans it’s a real treat for SCORE and our racers and we looking forward to racing in Baja every year.”
Quote:

"Additional sponsors in Baja are the Secretary of Tourism of Baja California and ProTurismo de Ensenada.

The race [San Felipe 250] annually provides a greater economic impact to San Felipe than the popular month-long 'Spring Break'.


Outdoor channel interview

It is absolutely silly to think that asking a few local merchants gives any validity to your argument.

Tens of thousands of racers, support crew and fans bring machines from distant locations, and NBC gives the race network air and publicity that isnt about drug wars, and you can't see anything positive in this? The locals don't make any money?
C'mon..if you just say the acident was a tragedy, and you dont care for the environmental impact of desert racing, you could gain back some credibilty.

PT9Baja - 12-30-2010 at 05:53 PM

ELFaro The racer involved and it was a racer has spent many days agonizing over his mistake. He has also visited the victim of the crash and his family and taken full responsibility . Your one time experience of an empty restaurant is very unusual. I have been in many full to capacity during the Score races . Try and get a table at the San Nicolas in Ensenada race week. The locals do make more money during a race than not. You have still ignored the fact that off road racing is deeply ingrained in Baja and most of the citizens of Baja know of the sport and many are long term fans. The American owned Score events are only 3 of the dozens of off road races in Baja. Look up the Mexican Code racing association. They run races in Baja Norte. There are 4 other Mexican racing associations in Baja . A large percentage of the people of Baja want the races to continue. Its tragic that there are accidents. Its always been a part of motor sports. I have repeated myself because you seem to be thinking that somehow theres an evil gringo off road monster taking advantage of the people of Baja and nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the Mexican people in Baja want the racing. I have spent too many hours watching races with Mexicans, talking racing with Mexicans, giving rides in my pre run car to Mexican families, helping Mexican race teams ,standing in line for a taco etc etc to not know Mexicans want the races. Times are bad but the off road racing in Baja is thought of as a good thing by most of the people and they look forward to these events. You have the choice to stay away from it and let the people enjoy what to most is a good thing.

David K - 12-30-2010 at 06:20 PM

ElFaro: Fact Check:

The Mexicans DID run the Baja 1000 (ONE YEAR)... it was 1973. They kicked NORRA out of running the race (NORRA created), and set up the 'Baja Sports Committee'... Changed the race's name from 'Mexican 1000' to 'Baja Mil' (1000).

It was a financial disaster of corruption and money vanishing... Racers that finished 'in-the-money' got none... and left La Paz with a set of Samsonite luggage as their prize!!! The Mexican orginization tried running the Baja 500 the following June... Almost nobody came.. big surprise!

The government of Mexico/ Baja California came to Mickey Thompson, who had recently created SCORE to promote Short Course Off Road Events (S.C.O.R.E.) and begged him to take over Baja racing... The financial HARDSHIP on the people of Baja California would be too great without off road racing. It was already (in early 1970's) seen as a gold mine for Mexico's Baja Peninsula.

The SCORE BAJA INTERNACIONAL was born in July of 1974... and was such a success, has run every year since... the name was changed to Baja 500 (and run in the traditional June 500 slot) after some years waiting for NORRA (who still owned that name, as they also created the Baja 500) to let go of the legal battle over it.

There was no 1000 in 1974, as Mickey didn't have enough time to prepare for such a big event. The first SCORE Baja 1000 was in 1975, and for the first time was a loop in the northern half starting and finishing in Ensenada.

1979 was the first year SCORE ran the 1000 to La Paz. The La Paz (or Cabo) finish point has alternated every 2nd to 4th year because of the overall costs so great for racers (AND SUPPORT PERSONAL)... There would be so little extra available to help the locals the way racers want to.

TMW - 1-2-2011 at 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro
Well...I guess its my turn to respond.

[["Now I asked a question about the Baja 1000 race not going into Baja Sur in 2011 and TW explained that SCORE alternates every year a northern loop route and a full peninsula route. And TW said the reason is the extra expense of support for the full peninsula route and the racers saving money. But this begs a quesion...if the Baja 1000 brings in all this money every year as you claim
and its good for the Baja economy as you say and these racers don't mind spending $250 grand plus for these racing machines and sponsors are involved then they shouldn't have a problem racing the entire peninsula every time! In fact if these kind of races are so profitable as David K and you proclaim and the Mexicans are benefitting from all this financial windfall then why don't they have these trans-peninsular races every month...or bi-weekly?"]]


It's not a problem for the bigger car teams but for the smaller car teams and most of the bike/ATV teams. The majority of races and chase teams don't have the time off or the money to do a full run every year. You may not believe this but the racers don't make any money on off-road racing be it in Baja ot the US. The run to La Paz or Cabo takes 20 or more pits these are volunteers not paid workers. A loop takes 10-12 pits with some double pits. BFG uses only 3 or 4 pit tractor-trailers on a loop but as many as 8 on a long run. SCORE could run the race to La Paz every year and La Paz would love it but the entries would drop to half or more. This last race was the first time the team I chase for was able to get it all together to run to La Paz in over 6 years. And it is a mixed team of Americans and Mexicans. Expenses and time off work were always the problems.


[["About three years ago my brother and I were returning from a fishing trip in SQ and needed a place to stay in Ensenada. We swung into Estero Beach Hotel Resort for two nights. Little did we know that the Baja 1000 was happening. The campground was maxed out with 80-100 toy haulers, vehicles, entire race teams, helicopters, etc. We were placed next to the games room by the boat launch road. The whole experience was a real "eye opener" for me and altered a lot of my previous mind set of what was going on there. When we went down to the hotel and restaurant for breakfast, lunch, and dinner they were virtually empty on the days that the race teams and support crews were around. However in the campground there were toy haulers specifically set up to handle the food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for everyone. One of the 1st things I noticed was how much the race teams were totally self-contained in everything...they really didn't need local Mexican goods and services for anything. And I'm not bagging on them if they choose to go this route while in Baja. When I went to the front office to register and pay for the two nights there
behind the counter was one of the owners of the Resort. I don't know his first name but it was the tall big Mr. Novelo. I
introduced myself in Spanish out of respect. After some greeting exchanges I asked him point blank with all the people in the campground if they made much money for all the effort they put in and he said "No". I asked him if the race brought in alot of money to Ensenada and he said "No". I asked him how much longer the race would go on each year and he deferred to the local government for that answer. So here is the testimony of local Ensenada heavy hitters who own hotels, bars, restaurants, campgrounds telling me this. As you said TW...what am I to think?']]


I would have thought the same. But I would not have limited myself to one resort south of town. I would have asked at several hotels, resturants and convient stores like 7/11 and Oxxo and get their take.


[["Another quote from TW..."He not once acknowledged that off road racing has any benefit and that the people watching it were near 80% unemployed". I'll acknowledge it now...but I think there is a HUGE difference between "close course" off-road racing and "open country" off-road racing.

If the Mexicans want to have "close course" racing...I'm all for it 100%...I'll pay to go see it and spend money at the events at local Mexican establishments. The Mexican own it, sponsor it, sanction it, and invite Gringos to participate. Absolutly no problem here...its what they want and if its a growing enterprise great.

For "open counrtry" racing...such as the B1000 and the B500...again...if the Mexicans own, sanction, fund, support, promote, and regulate these kind of races...if the awards are presented in Mexico by Mexicans for Mexicans...AND the Gringos are invited to participate then I'm for it 100%...I will go see it and spend money at the events at local Mexican establishments. But as it is now the events are controlled by the Americans."]]


What does that have to do with the unemployment rate? If you are talking circle track type racing I don't know of any in Baja except motorcross, MX GP and supercross.

CODE is probably the largest Mexican run racing promoter. While their events are excellent and Americans do race them, they are nowhere near as popular as the Baja 500 and 1000, even with the Mexican racers.



[["Now for the comment you made that "He also said that the racers let Vildosila win the last 1000 which is a stupid statement"...all right maybe a stupid statement..but I'll leave you with this:

I heard last year on a radio off-road talk show that the racers would be placing a decal on their vehicles that read - "Thank you Baja for allowing us to race here." or something similiar. Now I hope it was in Spanish. However I checked some of the truck photos from 2009 and 2010 and couldn't find any with the decal. And if you read the news article from the Irvine awards banquet for the Baja 1000 it says "Among the special awards presented by SCORE and Sal Fish included a very special appreciation recognition to the government of Baja California for all of its assistance to helping SCORE produce three highly successful races in Baja California, Mexico, in 2010. Receiving the award were four prominent Mexican government officials—Enrique Pelayo Torres, Mayor of Ensenada, Juan Tintos Funcke, the Secretary of Tourism of Baja California, Marco Antonio Novelo, Secretary of Tourism of the County of Ensenada and Rodolfo Talamantes, Director of Public Relations of the County of Ensenada." And you have the fact that suddenly after 43 years a Mexican national wins the B1000. So when I look at all these taken together I ask myself "Is SCORE experiencing some PR 'blowback' from disgruntled local Mexicans that this is a Gringos only race and what do we as Mexicans get out of it?" I don't know but the comments from poster rob who has his "feet on the ground' in rural Baja are very telling and none of you challanged him."]]


I don't understand what you are trying to connect here. Because there was not sticker on the cars saying thank you Baja they let Vildosila win!!!!

Mexican officals have always been introduced and thanked at the rider/driver meeting before the race, they are at the start line. Also thanks are given at the awards after the race and often the drivers and riders say a special thanks to the people of Baja and the government for letting us race there.


[["Enough for now...next up...your labelling me an idiot "]]


I should not have called you an idiot, ignorant yes, but idiot no. I apologize.

If the SCORE races are not good for Baja then why does the government keep giving them permission to race? Why does Ensenada keep signing a contract fopr the race to be there?

I would like to add that I emailed the racer that caused the accident and stated my opinion on the matter. He was wrong and he was not following SCORE guidlines for pre-running. Frankly I would be happy if they stopped the pre-running out of Ensenada. If it is well marked it is not necesary and perhaps accidents like this one would be avoided.

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by TW]

durrelllrobert - 1-2-2011 at 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PT9Baja
off road is a Mexican sport with many Mexican races , Mexican racers and support industry and Mexican fans . Its a passion for many Mexicans. There as likely to kick it out of Baja as they are of closing Mex 1 the next time someone gets killed on the road.

ditto for bull fighting :lol::lol:

durrelllrobert - 1-2-2011 at 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ElFaro

He's from Mexicali correct ? So who is funding him ? and is his truck being built in Mexicali with American expertise and help? Doesn't he own a business in La Jolla ?

Does it help the Gringos to "let" a Mexican national win the Baja 1000 now and then? Especially now the 1st time in 43 years a Mexican national has "won" ?

Back in my days of dirt track racing at Cajon Speedway the same questions were being asked about one of the racers from TJ that won alot of races there. His name was Ruben Torres and he owned Yankee el Tigre in TJ where he built his own winning car without any US expertise and towed it up to El Cajon every Friday for the races. Mexican ingenuity and skills are equal to anyone elses.

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by durrelllrobert]

DENNIS - 1-2-2011 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
If it is well marked it is not necesary and perhaps accidents like this one would be avoided.



I used to go sit in some river-bottom waiting for the race to come by. All the waiting while, I watched the neighborhood delinquents [grown men] run around and change the course markers. They all thought that was really fun.
I imagine it's a common game and find it hard to believe the drivers rely on the markers at all.

TMW - 1-2-2011 at 12:44 PM

Most of the car racers have GPS with the course downloaded. The bike and ATV guys don't . I preran the section from Ensenada to Ojos Negos last June on Thursday before the 500 ( it's only open on Thursday and Friday for outbound only) and I got lost 3 or 4 times and just waited for another pre-runner to come by. I preran the 1000 course when it first came open and the section just before La Paz, maybe 30 miles out, also had the markers changed that took me in a circle.

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by TW]

Bajahowodd - 1-2-2011 at 05:08 PM

Oh geez. I just don't get how or why DavidK seems to feel the need to paste political labels on people who are engaging in a sprited discussion. Personal opinions are just that. Throwing out terms like liberal and conservative ads nothing to the discussion. Sorry for the hijack, but since this site was down fo awhile, I'm just now catching up with what I missed.

David K - 1-2-2011 at 06:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Oh geez. I just don't get how or why DavidK seems to feel the need to paste political labels on people who are engaging in a sprited discussion. Personal opinions are just that. Throwing out terms like liberal and conservative ads nothing to the discussion. Sorry for the hijack, but since this site was down fo awhile, I'm just now catching up with what I missed.


Oh geez. I just don't know how or why Bajahowodd seems to feel the need to comment on my writing here instead of addressing the topic or questioning the obvious political opinions of ElFaro's comments??? I only take time to counter emotional rants with truth and facts... Because I care that folks understand the consequences of liberalism, I spell it out where it is counter to the good of the people in the name of 'compassion'.

ElFaro wants to end off road racing because someone was hurt... almost acting like off road enthusiasts want people hurt. He believes that there is little if any positive results from racing in Mexico... or posts what he does hoping to get you to think that.

ElFaro - 1-3-2011 at 09:33 AM

TW

I really appreciate your comments about how the "nuts and bolts" of the B1000 race works. You have alot more experience with the "in the field" workings than most here including myself and I respect that. I will readily admit ignorance of the day-to-day workings of the "race hour-by-hour logistics and planning". But I have a fairly good knowledge of how the Mexican government works and how they think after over 30 years of interacting with them on a "macro" level mostly on the electric energy side.

What I'm having trouble with is by your own admission the racers need to hold down non-race specific costs (e.g. meals, lodging, outside repairs, etc.) while in Baja and yet SCORE/Sal Fish's claim that all this money is being pumped into the Baja economy as a result of the B1000 race for example. Just as an example...even though the hotel rooms fill up how many racers are there per room?...probably 3-5 people.

Let's use SCORE'S numbers from the interview Cal posted to back up my claim:
Quote:
Originally posted by Cap
Score Racing economic impact
Quote:

“Our three SCORE Baja races annually produce over $30 million in overall economic impact for Mexico and we are so well-received down there by the government and the fans it’s a real treat for SCORE and our racers and we looking forward to racing in Baja every year.”
Quote:

"Additional sponsors in Baja are the Secretary of Tourism of Baja California and ProTurismo de Ensenada.

The race [San Felipe 250] annually provides a greater economic impact to San Felipe than the popular month-long 'Spring Break'.


Outdoor channel interview

It is absolutely silly to think that asking a few local merchants gives any validity to your argument.

Tens of thousands of racers, support crew and fans bring machines from distant locations, and NBC gives the race network air and publicity that isnt about drug wars, and you can't see anything positive in this? The locals don't make any money?
C'mon..if you just say the acident was a tragedy, and you dont care for the environmental impact of desert racing, you could gain back some credibilty.


SCORE/Sal Fish claim "$30 million dollars of 'overall economic impact'" from the three races. Not sure what "overall economic impact" really means but I'll assume $15 million for the B1000, $10 million for the B500, and $5 million for the SF250. Now if you go back to SCORE's press release B4 the B1000 race they claim "250,000 spectators" will be at the B1000 event.

Divide $15,000,000 by 250,000 = $60 per spectator. Now the race is about 6 weeks before Christmas. If the 250,000 number is mostly Mexicans I fail to see how they would spend that much per person on average at the B1000 race so close to Xmas. If the 250,000 is mostly foreigners (Americans et. al.) then I ask myself...are there a quarter of a million visitors coming down to Baja just for the B1000 race with all the "disincentives" there are now to go to Baja for any reason?

What is the population of Ensenada...about 250,000 alone? If its mostly visitors then why don't I see huge crowds in SCOREVILLE in the videos or along the race route? 250,000 spectators is about 1 spectator every 21 feet for the 1000 mile route. I watched the finish line in LA Paz at the 2006 or 2008 B1000 race and noticed as the cameraman panned the area as the racers were coming in they were avoiding the bleachers there...the place was empty...and only one Mexican cameraman. Compare that with high profile Marathon runs where runners straggle in to a large crowd at the finish line all the time.

SCORE is a PR organization with at least two main purposes...promote off-road racing and build and market an image. They are mostly an office and cubicles marketing PR through web sites, videos, photos, posters, sponsors, etc...and they are very good at it. There is an appetite for off-road riding and racing by a section of the public and I don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with what I believe are over exaggerated numbers that SCORE releases for these Baja races that makes them appear to have a bigger impact than they really are.

To be honest I think there are no more than 5,000 hard core race afficionados that attend the B1000 and the money pumped into Baja from the B1000 is probably between $125,000 and $750,000 tops...not the $15 million and 250,000 spectotors as claimed. If I'm missing something in my assessment of the financial impact here then please clue me in...Thanks JMHO.

David K - 1-3-2011 at 09:43 AM

Wow... you are really having a hard time with basic economics...

People coming into an area increase the amount of business... 10 people spending some is better than one person spending a lot.

Baja racing BRINGS people into Baja who don't live there, thus injecting a BOOST to the local economy. No matter where they spend their money, just being there raises the economy of the region.

Money spent by race fans, support crews, racers, etc. ends up all over... because where they spend it, then those businesses have more money to spend themselves... and on and on.

TMW - 1-3-2011 at 11:15 AM

I don't know what the total amount spent is by everyone involved with the race. I can say what I have spent. In 1992 thru 1994 I sponsored a motorcycle team "TnT Racing" We spent every weekend, once the race course was open for prerunning. These were usually 3 day weekends. We stayed in hotels most of the time and ate in resturants and purchased supplies etc while in Baja. This involved two racers for the 250, 3 or 4 for the 500 and 4 for the 1000. We had from 2 to 4 chase vehicles. Often the wives and girl friends would come too. On race weekend we came a day early before contingency. We used Kawasaki for pits except in 93 when we ran a Black Honda CR250 2 stroke and Honda would not pit a 2 stroke. We won the 500 and 1000, the only non-Kawasaki bike to win it's class at the 1000.

We also raced Lou Paralta's Baja Promotion series both GP and long distance. I believe it was 12 races. Also a Supercross series in Ensenada.The only races we did not race in Baja was the King of the Desert near El Centro in February and Mammoth Motorcross in June. I spent $75,000 a year on racing of which $25,000 was for bikes and related gear and supplies at huge discounts. I also helped an ATV team. Approximately $40,000 was spent in Baja per year for three years. In 1995 they got a factory ride with Kawasaki.

are conservatives capable of emotion?

mtgoat666 - 1-3-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
You see is is a simple matter of Logic vs. Emotion... Conservatives use logic (facts) and (some) liberals use emotion (feelings) to argue their points.


dk:
your emotional state is about the same as a 16 year old girl, despite your proclamation that you are an unemotional, logical, vulcan.
i think you are the most emotional participant on this board.
your emotions are what causes you to be so quick to take offense and turn so many threads into a flame wars, and your emotions are the source of your over use of exclamation points to punctuate evry other sentence :lol:

dk: there is nothinng wrong with emotions -- admit it, and let your emotions flow.

anwho, i would never trust a politician lacking emotions....

David K - 1-3-2011 at 11:56 AM

Yah, your right... Group hug???

rdrrm8e - 1-3-2011 at 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Yah, your right... Group hug???


tsk tsk

Yah = Yeah

your = you're:P

Cap - 1-3-2011 at 03:30 PM

I love it when people prove your point for you.

Faro, you just create numbers out of the air for your points and discredit economic impact studies that people paid for. It really is ridiculous.
Granted the economic impact numbers are probably generous, but 30 million dollars is nothing to sneeze at.

Quote:

From Wikipedia:

As of 2005, Baja California’s economy represents 3.3% of Mexico’s gross domestic product or 21,996 million USD.[24] Baja California's economy has a strong focus on tariff-free export oriented manufacturing (maquiladora). As of 2005, 284,255 people are employed in the manufacturing sector.[24] There are a more than 900 companies operating under the federal Prosec program in Baja California. The average wage for a maquiladora employee in Baja California is in the range of 2 to 3 US Dollars per hour.


Something tells me that an organization that provides an economic impact roughly equal to the GDP of the state annually is going to be welcome for a long time.

While we're on the topic of stimulating the local economy, What have you done personally, or what organizations do you support that have anywhere near the positive affect of the SCORE races?

Easy with the stones my friend..