BajaNomad - LL & RR in Mexican alphabet

LL & RR in Mexican alphabet

shari - 1-3-2011 at 09:03 AM

just a wee highjack here seeing as Blanca brought up spelling...the lady who registered babies told us that one can no longer use double LL's or RR's in a name anymore...they are changing them to single and changing the L's to a Y so it would now be yantera to change a tire?...weird eh!

LL & RR in Mexican alphabet

gnukid - 1-3-2011 at 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
just a wee highjack here seeing as Blanca brought up spelling...the lady who registered babies told us that one can no longer use double LL's or RR's in a name anymore...they are changing them to single and changing the L's to a Y so it would now be yantera to change a tire?...weird eh!

Taking your highjack... with respect to the walk which spans cultures and regions.

Language is a critical aspect of unique cultures. While it's true this dropping of letters in mexican spanish is promoted in schools as part of a planned homogenizing of the written languages in North America by UNESCO, along with agreements like Security Prosperity Pact, NAFTA and MERIDA, one should be aware that language is the primary method to communicate unique thoughts and ideas, these are expressed as unique cultures with unique dialects and language not a homogenized engineered mass programmed society.

One should feel at ease using language as you uniquely see fit in your community and culture as you are accustomed to, and consider attempts to corrupt language from afar such as in sweeping moves by think tanks such as UNESCO as an offense to you and your unique culture. Who among unique individuals would listen to someone in an office in New York City tell you to drop the double ll of your language?

You can choose to write as you wish and dismiss announcements from afar of name changes, language changes etc... as something as just that, something from afar attempting to change you and instead respect and use traditional national and localized languages which is a far superior ideal than homogenizing culture.

In fact, keyboards and computers have long been structured to support multiple languages of various complexities. There is no such technical requirement apparent to require the changing of the written language, except that which is deemed necessary by social engineers.

Finally, isn't the action of walking the peninsula an expression of acknowledging the inter-relationship of varied cultures, with respect to their uniqueness and also inter-dependency?

It's wonderful to witness this trip, to imagine the adventure, the dialects, the funny and also difficult moments, it's immensely inspirational!

[Edited on 1-4-2011 by gnukid]

LL & RR in Mexican alphabet

goldhuntress - 1-3-2011 at 11:12 PM

Quote:

These websites don't say anything about changing L's to Y but they do say LL and RR are not in the alphabet any longer.

http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/courses/alfabeto.htm

http://www.spanishpronto.com/spanishpronto/spanishalphabet.h...

gnukid - 1-5-2011 at 10:02 AM

Here's a related essay to manipulating language and it's implications for human thought.

David K - 1-5-2011 at 10:13 AM

Quote:

In registered babies' names... not in all existing words... I mean pero and perro are different words.

DENNIS - 1-5-2011 at 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
pero and perro are different words.

Just like "but" and "butt."

mtgoat666 - 1-5-2011 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

i thought the royal spanish academy was in charge of standardizing written spanish in the madre patria and colonies :lol:

gnukid - 1-5-2011 at 10:32 AM

Eric Blair, the author touched on these issues in his important work '1984", in contrast to [Aldous] Huxley's work, "Brave New World" in regard to governments rewriting language and history as mind control of society.

Worldwide, people are progressively being collectively socialized to be unable to communicate complex issues clearly, basically turning the population into grunting idiots is an excellent way to reduce people's ability to communicate critical thought about government, society and tyranny.

Try to have a discussion today with a friend or family and see if you/they are able to clearly communicate complex issues and consider the responses you get in light of this discussion about language controls as social engineering.

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by gnukid]

bajalearner - 1-5-2011 at 10:35 AM

Here Hear!

[Edited on 1-5-2011 by bajalearner]

DENNIS - 1-5-2011 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Eric Blair, the author touched on these issues in his important work '1984", in contrast to Julian Huxley's work, "Brave New World" in regard to governments rewriting language and history as mind control of society.

You must mean George Orwell with his idea of "Newspeak."

.

[Edited on 1-5-2011 by DENNIS]

cabobaja - 1-5-2011 at 10:55 AM

My son was born in Cabo San Lucas in 1998. After a couple of months we went to register his birth and receive his birth certificate in Cabo. The woman taking our information asked what was the name of our son we wished to register as his name. I replied, Cabo Guillermo. The woman stated we could not name our son Cabo....only christian names. She suggested Pablo, Jose, Marcos etc. I asked to see her boss. The boss was a woman and proceeded to show us the "rule of law" as dictated in naming children in Baja California Sur. My wife and I thanked her and left.

Two months later we went to San Jose to again attempt to register my son's birth. This time we were successful and Cabo Guillermo became a real person. But, several months later we returned to acquire addtional copies of his birth certificate in order to register his birth in the US and receive his US passport from the US Consulate in Cabo. The woman that originally registered his birth told us that she almost lost her job for allowing us to name our son Cabo.

DENNIS - 1-5-2011 at 11:01 AM

Ripped off the WWW.
------------

" I know antonym means opposite, synonym means similar. What's the term for words that sound alike, but are spelled differently and have entirely different meanings? Example: 'Breaks' and 'Brakes'???
Homophones........There are also homographs and homonyms"

DENNIS - 1-5-2011 at 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
The woman stated we could not name our son Cabo....only christian names.

Amazing, isn't it. Whtever happened to the seperation of church and state?
Is that just a local regulation?

vandenberg - 1-5-2011 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
The woman stated we could not name our son Cabo....only christian names.

I take it that would leave out Hussein ? :biggrin:

Bajatripper - 1-5-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
My son was born in Cabo San Lucas in 1998. After a couple of months we went to register his birth and receive his birth certificate in Cabo. The woman taking our information asked what was the name of our son we wished to register as his name. I replied, Cabo Guillermo. The woman stated we could not name our son Cabo....only christian names. She suggested Pablo, Jose, Marcos etc. I asked to see her boss. The boss was a woman and proceeded to show us the "rule of law" as dictated in naming children in Baja California Sur. My wife and I thanked her and left.

Two months later we went to San Jose to again attempt to register my son's birth. This time we were successful and Cabo Guillermo became a real person. But, several months later we returned to acquire addtional copies of his birth certificate in order to register his birth in the US and receive his US passport from the US Consulate in Cabo. The woman that originally registered his birth told us that she almost lost her job for allowing us to name our son Cabo.

This is certainly an enlightening post. I had no idea of such regulations. Thanks.

BajaGeoff - 1-5-2011 at 12:55 PM

Oh dear. What will become of the Pacifico Ballena?

cabobaja - 1-5-2011 at 12:59 PM

FYI...........the book the wife and I were shown resembled the California Penal Code. Very legal looking. This was a "law" in BCS. Have no idea if this is still the case.

Oh, I did ask if Jesus is a good name. The lady said yes. No, I said. Not Heysus, Jeesus. She said even better. We learned well though. Second son was born in Cabo San Lucas in 2003. Name....John William. No problem, they liked the name :bounce:

mtgoat666 - 1-5-2011 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

"Cabo?" You should be reported to child protective services for naming your child "Cabo." I think the woman should have lost her job. I am surprised you did not give him a middle name of "Wabo"

cabobaja - 1-5-2011 at 01:31 PM

Thought about naming the second son Wabo!!

David K - 1-5-2011 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
Thought about naming the second son Wabo!!

Your name isn't Sammy H. is it? :light:

cabobaja - 1-5-2011 at 03:06 PM

No David.....but I am your neighbor in Oceanside.

bajadock - 1-5-2011 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGeoff
Oh dear. What will become of the Pacifico Ballena?

Geoff, you have my 100% attention, as P.B.s are my standard house stock. I'm frightened about the future.

movinguy - 1-5-2011 at 05:50 PM

Quote:

Weird indeed - especially since many people pronounce both the "ll" and the "y" closer to a "j" . . .

Por ejemplo, when my wife tells the kids "Enough!", it's "Ja!", not "Ya!" :cool:

DENNIS - 1-5-2011 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by movinguy
Weird indeed - especially since many people pronounce both the "ll" and the "y" closer to a "j" . . .

Argentinians, for one, do that. There's a pro golfer from Argentina named Villegas. His name is pronounced on air as Vijegas.
I think Lencho has info on this.

krafty - 1-5-2011 at 07:45 PM

So bolillo and relleno are no more?

gnukid - 1-6-2011 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

You must mean George Orwell with his idea of "Newspeak."

Si claro Dennis, George Orwell was a pen name for Eric Blair, an intelligence officer for Great Britain who was trained and prescient in social engineering. His written works are both a worst case scenario and a map. One of the themes of his term Newspeak is that if people do not have the words to use they won't be able to describe the truth, or if language is so corrupted people will be unable to foment complex ideas about what is means to be human, what it means to have local control and customs.

You see examples of Newspeak in modern media daily, especially from politicians, for example, indefinite detention, peacekeeper missiles, clear and hold, democracy building, freedom fighters, these terms are completely ambiguous and false and furthermore you see it in defining political positions so that there is no actual position that defines you-that is simply a independent citizen instead they pigeon-hole you with terms that don't fit, like, moderate liberal, ultra conservative which each carry negative connotations, etc...

In terms of this statement, 'there is no more ll or rr in the spanish language', the sheer notion of someone telling you there are no longer letters to describe what you are accustomed to describing within your language and culture is such an absurd notion, so objectionable and absolutely of no logical purpose other than to reduce the unique qualities of the people, their culture and language, it is absolute afront, an attack on the latin american society.

Finally, for those who ask for further evidence, or those who say prove to me that this is bad and prove to me who is forcing this, quite the opposite, you must choose yourself to be interested and do research or not, you can choose to prove to yourself what is important to you and no one else can convince you, and you must decide who is pushing these issues on you, and do you accept commands from far-reaching social think-tanks in Paris or New York, whether they have nice names like "webster's dictionary" or "UN". Are these sources superior to you?

If you do find out who is promoting a literal attack on spanish language perhaps tell them to take a hike, perhaps instead with Donkay and meet the human beings of latin america and embrace their culture and language with respect.

shari - 1-6-2011 at 09:19 AM

whoah...definate food for thought on a cloudy morning.

I am not one to be told what to say or how to say it...by anyone...It took me by complete surprise... the idea of these changes in the mexican alphabet and I wondered how it really affects daily life/speech etc. and why it has changed....thanks for some insight Gnu.

so is it just names or will children be taught "new spellings"? I just cant imagine the implications of this huge change.

gnukid - 1-6-2011 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
whoah...definate food for thought on a cloudy morning.

I am not one to be told what to say or how to say it...by anyone...It took me by complete surprise... the idea of these changes in the mexican alphabet and I wondered how it really affects daily life/speech etc. and why it has changed....thanks for some insight Gnu.

so is it just names or will children be taught "new spellings"? I just cant imagine the implications of this huge change.

Shari,

After some thought, perhaps, there are two types of people, those who enjoy being told what to do and who gladly follow a path of globalists toward mass enslavement, those who adopt a change and start using the homogenized version of the language who should be considered traitors to latin america. And those who simply live their life as unique individuals with respect to local and national traditions.

For example, if you went to a store and there was a sign for ceboya, poyo, tomatiyo, would you feel happy that the store owner adopted the global latin unification language or would you be offended that the store owner was contributing to destruction of the local culture and language? Do you care?

If you continue to write cebolla, pollo, tomatillo are you considered a rebellious revolutionary? or are those who used corrupted universal latin language important in a small pueblo like Bahia Asuncion?

What is the value of national and local customs versus a globally homogenized and centrally managed society?

A more relevant question for Nomads is how does this relate to the spellings on DK's old maps? Should he start rewriting his old maps? change the names to isla jaques cousteau, bahia de los suenos, etc... why? cause someone told him to do it from new york city!

shari - 1-6-2011 at 09:44 AM

about the store owner's signs, I wouldnt be happy or offended...i just think it's his right to use whatever spelling he wants. I see signs every day that offer up a variety of spellings for simple words...which I love because I love diversity and personal uniqueness...i dont see spelling as right or wrong...but a personal "style"...like writing styles, grammar etc.

I am not offended at all by unique spelling...i kinda like it...it keeps us on our toes...its fun to figure out what the words really are...like our square and inverted triangle stop signs here...they are red and say Alto even though the shapes are known for other signs...but we all know what they mean...keeps you thinking!

I love it when areas revert back to their original indigenous names which usually have way more meaning as they were named for physical attributes...like Ojo de Liebre instead of Scammon's Lagoon!!!

David K - 1-6-2011 at 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
No David.....but I am your neighbor in Oceanside.

So come on over for a cerveza or Baja chat... :light:

Bajajorge - 1-6-2011 at 10:22 AM

:?:

Huh

DENNIS - 1-6-2011 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Si claro Dennis, George Orwell was a pen name for Eric Blair

Who else but you would know this, Paul. :lol:

Quote:

One of the themes of his term Newspeak is that if people do not have the words to use they won't be able to describe the truth, or if language is so corrupted people will be unable to foment complex ideas about what is means to be human, what it means to have local control and customs.

To define Newspeak even more, if a word doesn't exist, neither does the concept. If the word "peace" and all similar words were removed from the vocabulary, peace would no longer exist as a thought.
Wasn't it Winston's job for the Ministry of Whatever, to purge the books of certain words, leaving inquiring minds a predesigned selection?

cabobaja - 1-6-2011 at 01:10 PM

David K...seeU2U

Oso - 1-6-2011 at 01:18 PM

Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer" have had the N-word removed and "Injun Joe" is now "Indian Joe". Brave New PC World!

Oso - 1-6-2011 at 02:57 PM

And Lake Titicaca?

Sam Clemens, meet Stephen Foster

Dave - 1-6-2011 at 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer" have had the N-word removed and "Injun Joe" is now "Indian Joe". Brave New PC World!

I'm actually more interested in determining just how this was done. Are Clemens' works in the public domain?

When you buy a copy where does the money go?

gnukid - 1-6-2011 at 04:12 PM

Interestingly, few if anyone has asked why, pondered or defended the intentions of the proponents of changing the spanish language alphabet. Here are a few conjectures.

1) It's required for modern computers?

2) There's just too many damn letters?

3) Too hard for gringos?

4) There is no good reason?

Brian L - 1-6-2011 at 04:17 PM

It sounds like they want to change the way the alphabet is recited. There are still words with ch, ll, rr, etc. Just no need to put those two letter combinations.

Instead of A-B-C-CH-D-E-F, etc, you split the second letter out. Seemed weird to me when learning spanish saying those. English alphabet doesn't include some of the extra combos...

Is there a special spanish language keyboard, or do folks use the regular ole one like I use?

shari - 1-6-2011 at 04:20 PM

they have different keyboards which really screws folks up in internet cafes...I think you are right that now they can just type two R's and L's instead of it being a separate letter...I figured it might have something to do with standardizing computer keyboards too.

Oso - 1-6-2011 at 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer" have had the N-word removed and "Injun Joe" is now "Indian Joe". Brave New PC World!

I'm actually more interested in determining just how this was done. Are Clemens' works in the public domain?

When you buy a copy where does the money go?

It's been on NPR and some news channels. Some professor defends his rewrite, saying it's not to replace the original for everyone. It's just an alternative for teachers to use for younger readers. He has substituted the word "slave". He didn't change anything else. It's created quite a stir with many critics panning it and some, mostly teachers, agreeing with it.

http://www.examiner.com/mark-twain-in-national/huckleberry-f...

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by Oso]

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2011 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
And Lake Titicaca?

The border runs right across Titicaca.

The Peruvians take on it?

"Yes, we share the lake with our neighbors. Titi for Peru and Caca for Bolivia".

Oso - 1-6-2011 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
they have different keyboards which really screws folks up in internet cafes...I think you are right that now they can just type two R's and L's instead of it being a separate letter...I figured it might have something to do with standardizing computer keyboards too.

I toggle back and forth between English and Spanish keyboards with some clear decals on certain keys to indicate the difference when in Spanish mode. But I have no ch or ll, it isn't necessary.

David K - 1-6-2011 at 06:40 PM

Does ñ become ny ?? :rolleyes:

goldhuntress - 1-7-2011 at 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Interestingly, few if anyone has asked why, pondered or defended the intentions of the proponents of changing the spanish language alphabet. Here are a few conjectures.

1) It's required for modern computers?

2) There's just too many damn letters?

3) Too hard for gringos?

4) There is no good reason?

Language is such an interesting subject. I've been reading about since this topic came up, really fascinating stuff. It seems that the change is mostly for alphabetizing, not for pronunciation. Languages change all the time. this website explains why. http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/linguistics/change.j...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three digraphs: ‹ch› (che), ‹ll› (elle / doble ele) and ‹rr› (doble erre).[2] While che and elle were formerly considered separate letters,[1] the tenth congress of the Association of Spanish Language Academies agreed to alphabetize ‹ch› and ‹ll› as ordinary pairs of letters in the dictionary by request of UNESCO and other international organizations. Thus ‹ch› now comes between ‹ce› and ‹ci›, instead of being alphabetized between ‹c› and ‹d› as was formerly done.[3] Despite their former status as separate letters of the alphabet, ‹ch›, ‹ll›, and ‹rr› have always been correctly capitalized as two Latin letters. The word chillón in a text written in all caps is ‹CHILLÓN›, not *‹ChILlÓN›, and if it is the first word of a sentence, it is written ‹Chillón›, not *‹CHillón›. Sometimes one finds lifts with buttons marked *LLamar, but this double capitalization has always been incorrect according to RAE rules.

David K - 1-7-2011 at 12:37 PM

Very cool info!!! :light: